Former M96 Powered Owner Seeking Advice - Looking for 996.2 C4S

I will be a second time M96 owner (first car was a gorgeous 987.1 S; sold for a F80 M3 for four seats/doors), and am looking for a 996 C4S, and some advice. Searching for a C4S (possibly turbo) for the AWD as I have a very long commute and am required to be able to get around in all types of weather. I love the F80 but heavy pooling rain and snow/ice with a less than desired densely populated region and having an infant with the need for four seats have brought me to the C4S. I am a capable driver, but having to put up with the road shenanigans of others and traveling with our infant/fragile passenger have solidified my desire to go AWD for the added insurance (illusory or not). Had my Cayman S from 2015 to 2018. It was driven frequently (prior to and during my ownership) with 33K on the odometer at the time of purchase. Well maintained with all documents, and the IMS (and RMS) were not a concern for me after talking with the seller. Car did not have the retrofit. Had no issues with the car and loved it, selling it only because we started a family and needed four seats. I am looking at second generations only, and C4Ses/Turbos, but am running up against a dearth of supply. The cars I do like (searching PCA Mart, BaT, Porsche USA, etc) are appearing to largely be dealer cars in very good condition but with the typical HIGHLY inflated markup at higher miles. Mileage for these cars are hovering around 60-72k with prices between 47-50K for cars that are manual with bi-xenons (must haves) with scattered features that I like such as Sport Exhaust, Sports Seats, full leather, etc. Most of these cars do not have the bearing refit which I want for peace of mind as it will be a DD and weekend auto-Xer/track car as I have done with all previous cars. With the context, my questions are: - How far should I attempt to push down the price given these cars are solidly well above the assessed market value on KBB? And yes, factoring in dealer returns, used car shortage, dealership BS, but they also are in a business too, etc; but this is a sort of niche market... - With the 996s slowly going up in value, are these prices reflective of that increase or is it more so straight dealer profit padding? - With the higher mileage cars I keep hitting, how hard should I push the price when factoring in the retrofit? Not sure if I am now treating this as a boogeyman... Again, this will be my second M96 powered car (sans going turbo route; I miss NA but am open to it), and I love the second generation 996 and sticking with that, so just seeking some advice and assistance from the 996 community. Sort of in a rut given I had no issues with my previous M96 powered car, and happening across Porsche dealer used cars despite wanting (and much more enjoying) the private sales scene and the searching experience that comes with that. Initial prospect was an amazing example on PC Mart; second up to buy, but it was scooped up by the first viewer; seller is a legit enthusiast who took amazing care of the car. Hence here we are... Thanks so much!

1. Treat it like buying any other car. Educate yourself on the market as best you can before engaging with the dealer. After you've found a car you'd like to purchase, determine the number you'd like to pay for it. Once talks begin, negotiate as best you can, making your case as to why your number is a fair number. 2. Both. Even though the market is softening a little. 3. It's just another negotiating point. Use it to your advantage in any way you see fit.

A few quick points� C4S is second generation only - so you don�t have to make that distinction. Depending on build date it�s possible that the motor will have the large IMSB that�s got an extremely low failure rate (the one you have to split the crankcase to remove/change) all that needs to be done to this type of bearing is to remove the outer grease seal. $35-$50k seems to be the �new normal� pricing on a well optioned C4S in good- excellent condition. Good luck with your search

Quotes source post: 18262014

Seems like you already answered your own question. KBB lags a good bit and is basically useless for even a relatively high volume specialty car. Dealers will always have some wiggle room but I would always prefer to purchase from a private party. Wherever you buy from, consider getting an invasive PPI if possible, esp since you're going with a later M96. Given the choice between AWD and a set of nice snow tires, I'll take the snow tires every single time. AWD does nothing but make it easier to start from a stop. Everything else gets worse or stays the same.

Quotes source post: 18262069

Thanks for the grounding! Really appreciate it! Have done a lot or research and keep a running note pad, but a bit thrown off with the 911 market and current broader dynamics I have several guides with dates and generation notes, but I forgot about the motor update. Great call! Off hand, do you recall the MM/YYYY when that design change took effect? This is all helpful and a good self-check.

� AWD does nothing but make it easier to start from a stop. Everything else gets worse or stays the same.� ^^^ This is patently untrue. In fact, the awd system in the 996 is mostly biased to high speed driving (from a standstill the rear wheel bias will be 85/15 while at high speeds it�s closer to 60/40). As far as being stuck in the snow, the awd system in the 996 is next to useless. There�s plenty of info �out there� do your diligence�

Quotes source post: 18262141

If you are not traction limited, AWD is useless and does nothing but make the car slower, heavier and handle worse. If AWD was useful for going faster, do tell, why are all the GT products RWD?

Slow day at work. I like where this is going LOL

Quotes source post: 18262220

Yeh...

Quotes source posts: 18262014, 18262014, 18262014

The market in general is still VERY seller centric. All cars are being price well above average. Dealers are also locking prices to compete with Carvana and CarMax. Your best defense is get an objective PPI on the car you want and use that document to help get some $$ knocked off the price. The engine will be the M96.03 and is well known to be susceptible to cylinder bore scoring and IMS bearing failure. First, make sure the PPI shop you select scopes the cylinders... scope at least cylinder 5 and 6. Check the serial number, if you have later car (e.g. 04) then it could have a replacement engine with the 6305 bearing. Look for the "AT" in the serial number. The PPI should give you a laundry list of things that need to be corrected. Again, this is a good tool for negotiation. No, the values for the 996 have been going up for some time. This has a lot to do with it's exposure as a Porsche classic vehicle and the marketing associated with it. It's also still a very affordable 911 and many first-timers will choose it based on comparable value among other 911 cars. I don't doubt many dealers will trying to inflate the see if they can catch any suckers, but patience and due diligence will reap dividends for the wise buyer. Mileage does have a factor even though the garage queens 996 cars have been known to have the most problems. These cars are made to be driven and maintained but unfortunately, many owners let them sit up and that's the worst possible situation for these cars. Porsche sellers are just about as weird as Porsche buyers. My advice.... again, if you really like the car, get a PPI and then use that document to make an offer. If they so "no", then walk away. Don't get too emotional attached.

DDR, You are in the driver's seat. A little work, a little patience, and you will find a good one. Pretty much looks like we are entering a buyers market. While the C4s seems to be catching the eye of many bidders, there is an overabundance of supply being one of the high volume 996 models produced. Same can be said for turbos, which if you stay off of BAT for both, will allow you to find a great one for a great price. In addition to perusing the various sites with 996s for sale, I would do two important things. First thing I would do is get out to your local PCA events (any and all) and let them know you are looking. Second thing I would do is get out to the local Porsche indies and let them know what you are looking for as well as you will need a PPI and borescope. Many of the owners of these indies frequent the local PCA events, so if you are visible at the events, you may meet them and get here much quicker. Lets face it, private sales have a heck of a lot more breathing room for you to PPI, borescope and do your due diligence in contrast to a public auction. Looking forward to you joining the club!

Thanks again for all the replies and constructive advice. This is a huge help, and a solid re-grounding getting back into the search. I had my last car PPI'd, and had the bore-scoping performed so this is familiar territory, and the hunt more entails finding the right owner and owner history which I am figuring out with the 996 C4S market, hence the questions. This has helped tremendously with those searches that end up at dealerships, and just as I purchased my last car, sounds like the private/Porsche owners' circles are the way to go. Seems like, as a few have mentioned, the 996 is being used to reel first time Porsche/911 buyers onto the corporate lot (for better or for worse). Any reservations on higher mileage so long as it is maintained and well documented? A few very well cared for examples in the 65-80k mileage range. Thanks again for the discussion and objective replies.

Quotes source post: 18262173

Because AWD is banned in GT classes? 🤔

First, Porsche didn't create the C4 for traction in snow and rain, but for higher performance at speed. Applying power to all 4 wheels makes the car more stable and therefore faster. Sure, it may be "cool" to hang the tail out in a 911, but it is slower. dporto is correct, in GT3 and GT2 classes the use of AWD and 4WD is banned. And that is because .... it is too good (you can search the internet for various articles on this subject). Perhaps bronto would also recommend 2 wheel braking?

And oops, forgot, for the original poster, here are a couple of really good articles on what the C4S is all about. It will probably grow your interest in this variant. "S Stands for Schnell" : https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l#post14125769 "The Perfect 911?" : https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l#post14125785

Quotes source post: 18263049

Again.. please explain to me how in a car that is not traction limited, how driving more wheels is helpful? It isn't. When you are at the limit of the tires, you basically are 2-wheel braking anyway (less so in a 911 due to the inherent weight bias). Maybe take that hint about weight transfer and think again about why four wheels driven is pretty much useless in a 996.

Quotes source post: 18263076

�

I wonder what happens when a front tire is already at the limit of grip and you apply more force to it. There sure are a lot of understeer enthusiasts in here (or people who have never actually driven their cars).

All I know is that I do NOT want AWD on the track because it's heavy and it creates too much understeer. Doesn't matter whether it's a C4S or a Turbo. However, on the street, any power that goes to the front wheels in lousy conditions at slower speeds is better than no power going to the front wheels in most cases. Further, even though my 996.2 C2 is rear wheel drive, it has proven to be incrediably awesome in the snow with a set of snow tires, as well as its great in the rain with a good set of street tires. Importantly, it was worthless in the snow and bad weather on the streets without an LSD. Once I put on a Guard LSD the handling in bad conditions was incredible. Car handled like a rally car. What's the point?? Even with only 15% of the power going to the front wheels at slow speeds jn lousy weather, you will have more potential traction and safety.

Quotes source post: 18263076

Not sure I can explain it any further, do some research and talk to the experts. The way I see it is that "traction limited" or slip is a continuous function; it isn't black and white (100% traction or 0% traction) but it helps me to understand that there is always some slippage going on. And that is why the AWD helps when you don't even know it or expect it. Remember the AWD acts the same as an LSD in limiting tire slip; not exactly the same because it is balancing between front and rear (rather than side to side) but it is similarly as effective as an LSD. I know this is a repeat of what gets written periodically here on the forum, but take a look at the article mentioned above "S Stands for Schnell". It clearly documents that the C4S was faster than all other 996 variants in factory testing on the Nurburgring (except Turbo and the GTs). And that despite the higher coefficient of drag because of the wide body, and despite the higher weight of the AWD components. The Anniversary Edition isn't mentioned since it wasn't yet produced, but I have a feeling that might be faster in racing than the C4S. Yeah so fine, the testing was probably at 150-170 MPH which us low life on the forum probably never experience and so for many of us it might all be a moot point.

OP, I owned a 997.2 C4S and now a 996.1 C2. I also have driven a friend�s 996.1 C4. Never driven a 996 C4S, but I think my previous experience is relevant. The AWD variants definitely have heavier steering and feel very planted. The C2 is still planted, but has a lighter feeling front end. It�s not better or worse. I don�t agree with people who say the AWD cars steering feels less 911 like, and I also don�t agree that the C2 is superior� it�s just slightly different. At least on the street� I can�t speak for the track. The AWD is not designed for all-weather grip, though it probably doesn�t hurt. What I can say is that my 996.2 C2 on Michelin PS4S felt more confident than my 997.2 C4S on Bridgestone RE50A when both tire sets were new. Superior tires make a bigger difference on these cars than the RWD vs AWD. Also, a good set of adjustable coilovers transforms the car.

The benefit of AWD is the ability to get power down on the road to all 4 wheels versus 2. This is extremely important at slower speeds to moderate speed under heavy acceleration when you do not want wheelspin. Quite frankly, i see very little benefit to AWD at higher speeds when going in straight line unless your engine is so powerful that it is capable of spinning the tires at high speeds. Certainly not the 996 C4S nor 996 turbo. But for an 1100 hp car like the porsche 919 hybrid prototype or the new hybrid Hyper cars, you bet. With RWD power from the petrol engine, FWD power from the EV, it makes sense to divide the huge hp and tq on a car that weighs less than 1600 lbs. If not, it would be impossible to get any traction.

Quotes source post: 18262469

I bought my 996.2 in 2017 and it had 50k miles on it. It was in really good condition. Now it has 84k miles and is in even better condition both mechanically and condition of the body. So the owner (and their OCD) makes a huge difference. My engine is about to be rebuilt electively. There is currently nothing wrong with my engine. Rebuild is to fix typical failure points while increasing displacement for more power. I want an engine I won�t have to worry about if I take it to the track.

I love the AWD VS RWD banter.... Fun. In a 911 with the engine in the back, you get all the traction advantage of a FWD under acceleration with the motor actually driving the correct wheels. You don't get the disadvantage of making the front tires have to deal with braking, turning and accelerating. In a turn, on power, with the engine weight providing max rear grip, I am not sure why I would want the front tires to have to do more work than just getting the thing turned, you are already dealing with an understeer sensitive chassis because of that great rear traction, why add trying to drive the front wheels at the same time to the mix. The factory AWD may have been faster, because of the way the cars are tuned from the factory, but if you want to go fast on a track, well, do what everyone else does and stick with RWD, its not an accident.

Quotes source post: 18263818

Having never driven my C4S in anger(track nor autox) help me understand something. Wouldn't the additional weight up front help with the understeer by planting the front tires better(more weight balance)? While I understand the amount of power transfer to the front is very limited wouldn't the front wheels pulling while turned in the direction desired help bring the car around as well? Of course this is all dependent on hooking the power to the front wheels to the ground as I understand the wheel spin deal and understeer as I AutoX my FWD Type R.

Quotes source post: 18263837

Nah. It ends up creating huge amounts of understeer. Especially in the 964, 993, 996 and 997. Modern stability management systems adjust for this in the hybrid turbo prototypes on the track and the newer 911, but in reality, AWD works best for the common man driving around town in crappy weather with your family in the car. Audi based its brand on this concept.

Quotes source post: 18263868

Thanks. Well I was considering trying my C4S at the short course AutoX I do with the Type R, but now I probably won't, as understeer is a killer on our short courses.

Quotes source post: 18263908

Why not try it. Do it for the enjoyment. Worry about times later. As you get faster and the competitive juices start to flow, you can always buy a 986 Boxter S for next to nothing and auto x it. Good news is you know everything about the m96 engine. On another note, I am a long time Audi Quatro owner. I have owned 8 over the past 30 years and own 2 currently. I love AWD. I also love the handling characteristics of my 996.2 C2. AWD, FWD, RWD, doesn't matter to me. But they each have their own handling characteristics and quirks. Not good or bad, just quirks.

Quotes source post: 18263916

It would probably be fun if for nothing else just getting away from turbo lag coming out of tight corners after dropping out of boost! The old "1 thousand 1, 1 thousand 2, 1 thousand...hang on!!!" is real frustrating. I HATE Chicago boxes!

Locked in an amazing car today with everything I wanted to include all the right work and a well documented history to make for a long term DD and weekend AX/HPDE weapon 😁 Much thanks to Alex at Glen Shelly in Denver, CO for putting together and caring for such an amazing ride. Can't wait for the pick up and bonding drive back east! https://denver.craigslist.org/ctd/d/...511118101.html

Quotes source post: 18263942

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/515x589/33665543_9b85_405a_b16b_f21e92359971_1_105_c_65ef66aa353df2d038ad3b298bbc3ab6f1b3aa41.jpeg

Quotes source post: 18263942

Looks like a great car. Love the sport technos! Enjoy the road trip. I will also add that my .1 C2 is fantastic in the snow. In my opinion AWD can be nice, but the number one aid for winter driving is ABS, which all 996s have. Obviously, proper tires too.

Feels so good to be back. Car has a clean bore-scope as well, and getting a final PPI, but we are good. Contemplating adding the OEM black fender protection film; my father's 930 (silver) and 964 C4 (red) each had them and it's sort of a nostalgia thing... Other then that and evaluating the seam crack in the tail light, it's set for a while.

Looks like a really nice car. I too found my C4S in Colorado and drove it back to North Carolina via the Tail of the Dragon. It was a great way to get to know the car. You will love how planted the car feels at speed and in the rain, no worries. Its the perfect daily, something I did for 4 years until my job required me to travel more. Now it is a weekender and occasional track car.

Quotes source post: 18264293

Dude!!! Did you buy from a solid owner in Boulder? Last week?!

Quotes source post: 18263933

🤣🤣🤣 I missed the NA Cayman S and I have to say, my F80 did turbo well. Test drove a 996 T, but meh, and just affirmed I wanted that flat six NA back.

Congrats on the purchase on what looks to be a well spec'd C4S!

Quotes source post: 18263306

You miss the most important part of that article, which is that the C2 and C4s were tested on different tires. Put equivalent brake and tire compounds on both cars and you get a useful answer. Adding 300lbs and more drive wheels to a underpowered car does not make it faster. The C4s is still a fantastic car, but the whole idea that AWD is better somehow just makes no sense, particularly in the context of the 996.

We need a hot version time attack togue style RWD vs AWD 996. I volunteer my slow *** RWD 🕺 and it sounds like @DDR MFS has a perfect candidate for AWD. My one stipulation, umbrella girls or I’m out. Congrats on the purchase brosef.

Quotes source post: 18263908

You should try it. Get adjustable sways, full soft in front and full hard in rear. You can use the throttle to rotate by easing off as you enter. It�s a ton of fun and the AWD helps to get back on the power early.

Quotes source post: 18264602

I can't wait for Auto-Xing.

Quotes source post: 18264602

Well since our next session is Sunday 7-31 it's gonna have to be bone stock.

Quotes source post: 18264413

Na, I have owed this beauty since 2016.

Quotes source post: 18264706

Well farts. Looks amazing!

Quotes source post: 18264569

Sounds like a great idea. How about VIR in November? It is hosted by Carolinas PCA.

Quotes source post: 18264772

I'm in.

Quotes source post: 18264772

Been trying to get @zbomb to take a trip. What r the dates? It has to be better then the event i went to last year in mid-aug. Asphault was at 116*.

Quotes source post: 18265076

Host Carolinas Region PCA Registrar [email removed] Location Virginia International Raceway, VA Event Dates 11/18/22 - 11/20/22 Registration Dates 09/12/22 07:00 AM (opens) (central time zone) 11/11/22 11:00 PM (closes) (central time zone

Quotes source post: 18265108

Totally down for this. Thanks for posting. Getting details finalized tomorrow. Per the usual, crap shoot with transport. I don't have the time to get out and back to CO with all the crap on my plate. I was looking forward to the bonding drive. After much research and added confusion, going with Montway given the generally good reviews and deliveries here and on Planet-9. Got a decent deal, but still going to wait and talk to Glen Shelly to see if they use a preferred carrier, if not, then Montway it is I guess and a lot of distractions while the car is inbound. Cannot wait... Also, did a lot of research and this car is literally to my specs sans the PCCM+. Going to get that installed upon arrival and I should be good... Still contemplating the PCCM since it suits the car so much more, but all the voodoo and whatnot sort of scares me...

I would recommend driving it and living with it for a little while before doing pccm+� I find very little use for all the �technology� in newer cars when driving the 996 - especially when running maps or Waze on my iPhone�

Yep. I seldom if ever use the radio. Use the money on engine durability, then enjoy its sounds.

:06 Difference over what, nearly 13 miles: Nurburgring Nordschleife: 8:17 --- Porsche 996 C2 8:18 --- BMW Z8, 400 PS (08/2000) 8:18 --- Chevrolet Corvette Z05 Commemorative Edition, 344 PS (09/2003) 8:18 --- Ferrari F355 (06/1997) 8:20 --- Audi RS6 (2002) 8:22 --- BMW E46 M3 (12/2000) 8:22 --- BMW M Coupe, 321 PS (10/1998) 8:22 --- Mercedes-Benz C55 (07/2004) 8:23 --- Aston Martin DB7 GT (2003) 8:23 --- Porsche 996 Carrera 4

Quotes source post: 18273031

Interesting. Makes sense.

And this, taken from a 2002 Autoweek article: "We have given up an almost imperceptible tick in acceleration against the Carrera in favor of more grip and better brakes," says project engineer Georg Wahl. Measured by a lap on the old Nurburgring’s north loop, the C4S shaves four seconds from the C2’s time , according to Wahl. Stat freaks note: The C4S runs the 12.8-mile Nordschleife in 8:16 seconds (92.9 mph), the Turbo in 7:56 (96.8 mph) and the damn-the-electronics, 456-hp, two-wheel-drive GT2 in 7:44 (99.3 mph). Here's a link to the full article: https://www.autoweek.com/news/a21047...%20(99.3%20mph ).

Quotes source post: 18273063

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/320x240/oh_yeah_gif_1_247d746945301a6808bd70fe4090048a0497602d.gif