Is the M96/7 Motor Junk?

Yes it's an inflammatory and sensational subject line, but hear me out. First off, I've been a Porsche fan for over 30 years. I had the 944 Turbo poster on my wall (the one with my last name on the license plate as a sticker), and my first car at age 17 was an Alpine White 914 with Chalon body kit that I restored from a barn find. However, after not being able to affor a Porsche after college, I went toward BMWs, partially because of their affordability, but also because of their reliability. I had an e30 M3 and an e36 M3, but went over 200K without a hiccup. Very reliable and very inexpensive and easy to maintain as a DIY mechanic. Now, I've been looking to get a 996 for about the past year, but with all these engine issues I see popping up I'm seriously wondering - is my passion and desire to drive an iconic 911 squashing down my better judgement? Is buying a 996 (unless it's got a rebuilt, blueprinted, 20K Raby engine) just a gamble? In all the forums I've participated in over the years (Infiniti FX, Toyota Sequoia, BMW M3, CHevy Tahoe/Suburban) I've never seen so many issues with engines that can fail with so many weak points. To make matters worse, it's not like these are $1,000 engines, or as easily available as a Chevy LT engine. A rebuild costs north of $7K even if you do the work yourself!!! I make a good living, but at the moment, spending $15K - $20K with the idea of having a $10K engine issue any day after buying the car is scaring the hell out of me. Can someone really convince me that these are reliable cars and that major engine problems are blown way out of proportion. Just look at the latest forum postings, there's a possible bent crank, main bearings going out, "gold flakes" in someone's oil, intermix issues. OR, should I manage my expectations and accept that a 996 is going to be a potentially expensive car to own and a big part of the trade-off for looks and handling is going to be a potential catastrophic engine problem. Kind of like buying a Maseratti or Jaguar. I almost bought a Ferrari 348 until I discovered the the cost of major services which required the engine to be taken out. It was so high that I decided it wasn't worth it. Please don't flame me, I want to be in a Porsche in the vary near future, but I'm starting to think I should save more (I don't like car payments) and wait to get a newer 911 or Cayman. Thanks

Original owner of an 04 c4s cab with 52k miles, new alternator and new struts for the top are the only thing I've done to the car in 15 yrs. You can go crazy and not sleep a wink if you listen to all the experts on here. It's a strong engine and the individuals with issues have the loudest voices.

I understand your apprehension. I was shopping for a sports car in May, and my final choices were BMW and Porsche. I ended up buying an '03 C2, well aware of the potential problems. Why? Because it is the car I've always wanted. Clearly, that's not a decision based on logic. Of course, I may someday regret my choice, but thus far I am extremely happy with the car. There are no guarantees. A BMW may prove to be a money pit; you never know. Is this car to be a fun toy, or a daily driver? Mine is a weekend toy; if I'd been planning on driving it daily, I may have made a different decision.

I personally think buying a running 996 for the going rate is not a wise decision. The unreliable engines and the amount of maintenance of these cars need makes it a car that only a small group of people should own. The 996 is a great platform, but given what I mentioned above, if you're not willing to spend ~$35K-$40K for one that includes a properly rebuilt engine and getting it up-to-date on maintenance, you're not going to be happy with these cars. You will always have that fear of something going wrong. Also, not doing it all at once will nickel and dime you in terms of time and money. I have owned/own BMWs, Hondas, Nissans, etc. Do not expect the 996 to be like them in terms of reliability and cost of ownership. I am pretty good at getting cars for a low price and lowering my cost of ownership. The 996 for me has been the trickiest. I was lucky to find one car for a great deal that had amazing upgrades to it. I also have a parts car, and I am always on the lookout for parts cars. I plan on having one of my blown engines properly rebuilt one day. For the average consumer, I ALWAYS recommend the following: -Save up $35k-$40K -Find a clean chassis with a blown engine. There will ALWAYS be rollers with blown engines. -Get the engine rebuilt properly and do as much of the "while you're in there" stuff -Purchase suspension parts to replace the old stuff. Then enjoy the car! The 997.1 is also an option as it has similar issues as all of the 996s but the values of 997.1s are higher. I think the 996 is the better choice if you're looking for a cheaper car but won't have as well of a resale value. Hope this help and good luck!

Buy a 996TT.

Thank you for all the replies so far. The honest answers are what I was seeking. This would just be weekend car. I�ve also thought about buying a roller and rebuilding the engine myself, but I think I�m going to save that sort of commitment for a 914/Subaru engine project. I�m looking for something I can enjoy now and then tackle the rebuild project in a year or two when I get itchy fingers. I�ve also thought about buying an �affordable to me� TT. That probably means 100k+ miles or a salvage. Neither which bother me. Thanks again for all the replies and thoughts.

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Don't buy one, then. Nothing in life is guaranteed. The last thing you want is a 911 you don't drive because it gives you jitters.

Get a thorough PPI from a shop knowledgeable with the 996, and listen to what they say. Lots around so finding a good one isn't hard, just takes time. Then depending on the mileage and history do the necessary things (ims, rear main, all fluids, suspension/brakes.....) and drive it, maintain it. You will love it.

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Then what rate would be reasonable? The prices aren't going to get any better. This is as cheap as you can get into a 911. Good driver 996s are going for $15k-20k, and ludicrous deals for less than that aren't rare. This is largely true for all semi- and actual exotic cars. Some people should just drive Accords and Camrys if maintenance is a priority rather than the driving experience. And the maintenance issue is also overstated. My two 996s and old 986 were all solid cars that required not much more than any typical car for maintenance, and this experience isn't rare. Overall, this is the kind of post that keeps the prices down. The bottom line is the known major failure rate on 996s, while varying from era to era, is probably <10% overall, with the risk being highly mitigable via basic checks, maintenance and RMSB replacement (and the latter can easily be a condition of purchase). That means the likelihood of an uneventful ownership experience (with respect to these problems!) may be somewhere >90%.

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All true. My Hyundai through a rod at 74,000 miles just cruising home on the interstate. Thankfully, it was covered by warranty, but poop happens. I drive my 996 every day it is not raining or that I don't need to carry a large object. If it implodes.....Well crud, not sure at this point what I will decide whether to fix or replace. I know she will need suspension soon and maybe a front respray but that is it. I started driving to the Porsche dealer 33 years ago saying someday. Thirty years later that day came. The 996 is still a fun, fast, and great handling car.

I was initially leery when I started researching. I've come to accept that, like most forums, you hear the vocal minority vs the happy majority 90% of the time. Is the 996 more likely to have an issue than most cars? Maybe. But I don't think it's inevitable. That being said, i already told my wife that it may cost us another 15k or so down the road lol! She wasn't excited, who would be, but she understands there is a small element of **** happens. Personally I'll be looking in the 15-20k range mentioned earlier. The closer to 15k the better as that leaves more money up front for fixing any issues found and maybe, just maybe, an upgrade or two. In a perfect world I'd find a great example that passes a PPI with flying colors for 15k allowing me to splurge on a paint correction and full xpel or similar cover. If I'm incredibly lucky, a C4S cab may drop below 20k over the winter. A man can hope lol! Based on research I've done I'll make sure the PPI includes a bore scope and a hopefully a thorough inspection of the timing chain, tensioners, and guides. I've read that on the 99's and early 00's the IMSB failure rate was less than 1%. So I may focus on those years, the 99's especially. But if a great deal comes up on a later year I won't be scared away. Just my opinion, but I think the likelihood of failure on these motors are overrated. Which I'm somewhat fine with as it lowers the barrier to entry for the car I've always dreamed of.

I dont know man, my .02 sounds like youre trying to talk yourself into it. These cars are almost 20 years old, nothing logical about purchasing a 20 yo car whether its a porsche or a ford - but the 911 is alot more fun. I think this is one you make with your heart, not your head. I believe the engine issues are real, that said there is always bias on forums as bad news spreads fastest. "Save and buy a newer 911/ Cayman" might be more wise if thats an option for you, but my accountant would tell me that is illogical also. Those need to be maintained, and its not cheap. I was where you are as well. I went into it almost a year ago spending what I could afford to lose knowing the purchase made no sense, other than the 911 was my dream car since I was in high school and I wanted one. Good advice on this forum, buy the best one you can afford and get a ppi. One day it will need a rebuild. Im ok with that. If you are not, Id walk away. My kids are grown, so I enjoy the time tinkering with it in the garage, and REALLY enjoy driving it. I havent owned anything quite like it and that alone is worth it.

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Seems to me that the only person that can convince you is YOU. Remember, this is a technical forum and most people come here because of problems, not because they want to praise their purchase and play show and tell. Day in and day out people come here to ask for help. After a while on the internet, anyone with half a brain would think these cars are problematic. It's the psychology of forums and social media. This doesn't mean the 996 is a bad car. However, the car has proven to have many weak points as you already know about. In my opinion, there are problems that will need to be address if you purchase a 996, but don't go into any car purchase with fear or worry. Every Porsche has it own set of problems. The 996 was a radical car and signified a major turning point for Porsche and with that it has ushered in a new set of growing pains. If you want reliability, buy a Toyota. If you want an amazing experience in German performance, then buy a Porsche. Remember, performance and reliability are totally two different priorities that require compromise to achieve one over the other. Good luck in your purchase.

To me these are toys to be enjoyed. As said above they are getting some age on them add in lack of proper maintenance, design shortfalls and/or abuse over the years it is small wonder that there are issues. I bought mine without much knowledge of the possible issues. Drove it for 4+year with normal maintenance and got bitten by the bore scoring issue. Stuff happens. You pay to play. I am fortunate that I could send mine to the best engine guy that I know of and know I made the right decision for me. Each of us is different as far as tolerance, wealth and comfort. Depends on what you want to drive for fun. Life is short do what you can when you can. Good Luck!

No flames, if you hate the prospect, don't buy one.

In answer to the original question, NO... This is not to say there aren't legitimate issues with the engine, but the same can be said for most things mechanical. Learn what the issues are and how to deal with/address them - or better yet buy one that's already had the issues addressed.

after having been inside a few m96/97s at this point, the answer is yes, they are junk. There are just too many failure modes. If its not the IMS, then its the rod bearings. If its not the rod bearings, then its bore scoring. If its not bore scoring, then its a cracked head, or a broken timing chain guide, or a cracked ims chain paddle, or a broken oil pump driveshaft, or a d-chunked cylinder etc etc (x 34 failure modes). Most engines have one or 2 achilles heels that can be fixed and you're good to go. The M96/97 have far too many to make it a solid motor.

There's an AE that just turned over 400K miles on original motor and IMSB!

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There is nothing wrong with the rod bearings. Porsche there is no substitute !

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This is my life right now.

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Why, low washer fluid warning freak you out?

Junk seems harsh. Like a lot of higher-end German cars it seems to have its issues but not unlike other things from that era. BMW E46 M3s and E39 M5s had rod bearing and Vanos issues. I think it was the next-gen M5s that might have been one of the worst cars BMW ever built. Audi's of that era like the S4 was a pain to work and a lot of electrical gremlins. The turbos used in those weren't exactly the most reliable and the early DSG type automatics were atrocious. I honestly do not know much about Mercedes of that era, those that I have detailed seem to have quality control issues, I've had a few with peeling wheel clear coats, peeling interiors but I don't know much mechanically about them. Plenty of cars from this era that didn't have issues but I think if the M96 is maintained its no worse than other high-performance cars of similar range. I think what really gets you is that if you do have issues its just so expensive to fix, I think there would be a lot less negativity if you could do a rebuild for 5-10k rather than 20k.

My opinions: You shouldn't buy a car like this if you need to take a loan to do it. Have $5K in reserve for post-purchase deferred maintenance, with any luck you won't need it. If the potential issues are going to keep you up at night, buy something else. Life is too short. If you can't do your own work, be prepared to pay a lot to own and maintain any Porsche. If you would be financially devastated by the cost of a blown engine ($15-25K), then consider whether this is the right car for you. If you do buy one, do the maintenance and drive it, don't get stressed out or bogged down in the possibility of a failure. Pay attention to your car and if it shows signs of something going wrong, don't ignore it - diagnose it and fix it.

I think the question is a mindset issue about the price of a 996, its not just about the engine. In terms of value, realistically the 996 is a $45K car that we can buy for less. And now it is really hard to find any decent 911 from other series under that price. So your choices are: - get a 996 911 for $25K and budget another $20K for new motor = $45k. - get a 996 Turbo for $45K - get any other 911 and you'll spend $45K. - don't get a 911 If you can spend only $25K, then it comes with risks.

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this is spot on. I think that the issues that are known are terrible if they happen to you but on the other wise of the equation are very high mileage 996. Hoovies 996 would have survived the track if he actually did the right work (but blown engines get clicks). Buy a good example with moderate miles. Good tired and mild suspension update make these a blast for the street and DE. If you�re gonna do lots of track time throw on a deep sump and x51 baffles. Even �bullet proof� motors can grenade on track. Hell even a property sorted car can meet its fate in an accident that isn�t your fault. The 25kish price of entry is with it despite the gremlins as soon as you hear that flat 6 screaming from behind your head at 5500 rpm

Well, if you read Rennlist forum a bit, you have already realized that, yes, the M96/M97 engine is junk, that you need to expend 5K to change the IMS (even it probably will never fail) and that there is only one provider in the world that you can trust... Not to mention to those oil brands made of unicorn powder in a secret garage somewhere in the woods that you should use... because... you know, the big companies with big labs are also trying to steal your money. That been said.. well... if you take a deep breath, and look around, you will see a lot of this cars with milleages going now up to 150K 200K miles with no problems when they are used and maintained properly. Actually, my opinion is quite in the opposite pole of the mainstream here. I think that 996 are really reliable high performance cars that can be daily driven. Not many sport cars from the same era can say the same.

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Doesn't have to be German cars or cars of advanced age. The kid's 2015 WRX tossed a rod bearing within the first 12 months of ownership and he does not abuse his vehicles. So it can happen and from looking at Subie forums he was not alone!

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Valid point made in bold. It does cost more to maintain and has possible exposure to expensive failures but the 996 is not a Camry.

I've owned two M96-powered cars (my '03 986 and my '99 996). I had the 986 for 2 years; I'm at about 6 with the 996. Neither car required any major internal repairs. The 996 will be turning over 100,000 miles later this month (70K of those are mine); it's needed normal repairs (fuel pump, water pump, starter), but no internal repairs. In the same time period, my wife and I have also owned a diesel X5 (2010), a Nissan Murano (2014), and a Jeep Cherokee (2017). The BMW and the Nissan were both new, and the Cherokee was CPO; I had more serious mechanical issues with each of those vehicles than I have had combined with the 996. (I'm not just griping - there have been some pretty substantial issues, like the X5 exhaust cooler cracking and leaking diesel fumes into the cabin...or the Nissan's dreadful reliability record : 2 transmissions, a valve train, and a CV joint...in addition to "little" things like the infotainment system failing catastrophically in the Murano) It's absolutely true that when things go wrong with the M96, they go wrong in a hurry and the costs mount even faster - but I'm not sure that is tantamount to being "junk."

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I like this list. My 996 experience started at closer to 10k. But I think if 996TTs get cheaper, then a Carrera will be very hard to justify. Granted the turbo ancillary stuff can add up quickly, but the Metzger core seems to be much more robust.

You are taking a chance. To minimize the likelyhood of getting a car with problems, get a thorough PPI done prior to handing over any cash. Have the shop drop the sump and scope the cylinders from the bottom. It will cost several hundred dollars to get a quality PPI. You may have to spend this money on two or three cars if the PPI identifies significant problems. My 1999 is not typical. It has 92k miles, most of which were put on by Michelin Research and Development as a tire tester on their Spartanburg SC test track. It had a roll cage, Euro GT3 seats, X51 baffle, and other mods. I have tracked it multiple times at Road Atlanta. The level 1 (red line) over-revs are maxed out in the ECU (over three minutes) and the level 2 (over red line) total 3.1 seconds (early in the engine's life). It still has the original engine and runs great. I did install the LN Engineering 2 quart deep sump kit before I started tracking it. Will the engine die one day? Yes. In my mental model, the car was ridiculosly inexpensive, and I am ready to accept the financial loss when the engine fails.

Lots of good info in this thread, but the overarching question here is: are you more apt to make a decision based on FACT or OPINION?? All car manufacturers have to walk the line between performance and reliability... more often than not, both are not possible. The M96 was born from motorsport, meaning the motor was designed at tolerances to give maximum performance at the potential risk of less than amazing reliability. This is not a new mantra for Porsche, it's been at the center of their collective mindset from the word go. With that in mind, a generous estimate of a 10% failure rate of the 996 15 years after being built is pretty damn impressive. The fact that Porsche made over 180,000 996's makes that stat all the more impressive, particular given that's roughly 3 TIMES the output of the number of 993's that were made. And to say that many of the 996 cars on the road today have been driven over 100k miles makes me think the 996 is a true success story and tribute to the ethos of building a sports car that can be driven every day. Enough facts, my opinion? I bought a C4s two years ago that came with its original window sticker that was north of $90k. I paid $22k for it. I've spent $10k on it and will likely spend another $6k before i consider it up to my standards at which point I'll have far less than half the cost of the original MSRP. And that wasn't up front cost of entry -- that's less than $40k spent over the course of 3 years.... can't do that with a 996TT unless you wanna pay interest and not make a single repair/upgrade for 2 years after purchase. Additionally, if the engine grenades and I spend another $20k rebuilding it, I'll still have $30k less invested than the guy that drove my car off the dealership lot when new... and those spends will have taken place over the course of years, not before i drive it for the first time. With all that in mind, I smile every time i get in my 996 because it's faster around a track than any other 911 that came before it (most of which are worth multiples of what my car is worth) and I have less into it than a new Nissan Maxima, lol.

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Too funny, my boys 05 WRX spun a bearing at 170k, now the rebuild is toast after 30k. Our love affair with cars is not without risk, and cant ever be justified on a spreadsheet

By all means buy a 996 if you get a good one you will become happy if you get a bad one you will become a philosopher

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^^^Pfffft...There are plenty of 996�s cruising around just fine - blissfully unaware that they�re just time bombs waiting to explode 😉...While the issues are certainly real, they�re nowhere near as ubiquitous as this (and other) forum(s) would make you believe. Do your due diligence, and buy the best one you can find - or not! There must be some reason so many people want to take a gamble on these things

Thank you again for all the replies. I read a lot of justification which essentially reads as either a.) life's too short, or b.) who cares if it happens, the enjoyment is worth it, or c.) no big deal, I can afford it. And all of these are OK. I guess I'm just looking for a stronger acknowledgement of "Buy at your own risk. Your $20K car can be worth $6K in a matter of seconds" Which is fine. People still collect and drive Jaguars or any other British or Italian car. And people swear by Subarus even though they are VERY prone to major mechanical issues (headgasket anyone).... So to the engine experts... (ummm Mr. Raby, et al) is this essentially an engine with some major flaws and driving one without rebuilding it to new specs and addressing the flaws is taking a giant risk, OR, are these fantastic engines that the world misunderstands and the issues are blown out of proportion, OR is it somewhere in between?

Is the M96/7 motor "junk"? My answer is NO. It is a high output per liter/ low center of gravity engine, finely tuned, and uses some of the finest materials available. Since hind sight is 20/20, we can all agree that the m96/7 engine would have benefited from about 10lbs more aluminum in the cylinder area and head area, to have eliminated the "D' chunk, ovaling, cracked cylinders, cracked cylinders, and even an oil passage to the IMSB with a plain bearing, or just stayed with the dual row instead of going to the single row with an even lighter/thinner IMS shaft. But that is NOT how Porsche rolls !! With 10% of 180,000 cars built failing to one of these issues, that's a whopping 18,000 cars failing. Most of which get reported on here. But it also means 90% don't fail, and live a good life (like my 99 Coupe at 14.7 cents per mile) And is also the reason the market for 996 Carrera has fell through the bottom.( and makes it attractive to outsiders and people who normally can't afford the Porsche pricetag). Being a Top Mechanic and Race Car Nut for 40+ years I can say that MOST catastrophic failures on high performance engines start from a $10 part failing and "chain reaction" or collateral damage follows, or from being over-stress by the driver.ie valve spring, valve keeper, piston clip, chain link, rod bolt, dirt or debris, and NOT from major design flaws. It been said here that the M96/7 suffers from 31 modes of failure, I haven't seen that list but can probably guess what's on it, and only 4-5 I would consider indicative of being exclusive to the m96/7 as a primary cause of failure. The other 90% I would probably argue were common to all high performance engines or even to average engines. I have seen thousands of failures of all types on all kinds of engines, and would be a short list of components that I have NOT seen fail either primary or secondary failure. One mans "junk" is another mans "treasure" !!!

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Too funny, why are you even on this forum? Sounds like you don't own a 996.

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I'll be super clear for you. Even a 991 is a "Buy at your own risk. Your $70,000 car can be worth $10,000 in a matter of seconds" kind of car. Statistics and data are helpful, but life is a bitch. Buy the 911 you can afford, because if you stretch to get a newer car and it breaks on you, you're only going to be that much more heartbroken. Simply buying a 997 or 991 is not going to remove you from risk. It merely changes the risks you're taking

Keep in mind the people that post on these forums represent a very small portion of actual owners. Like was mentioned before, 180,000 996's made. We don't hear about the thousands and thousands of cars with no issues. I guess this can be a good thing as it keeps the prices low for such an awesome car. Kyle

OP - I took a little different route than most; I bought a very clean example of an early '98 build (Feb) with the only option I wanted (Factory Mechanical LSD and little else) and the intention of having the engine rebuilt as soon as possible. Many will say I was foolish, as I could have bought a TT or a 997 for the same overall outlay, etc. but that's not what I wanted. I wanted an initial 996 build (better materials and attention to assembly as production ramped up), cable operated throttle (which are not available on any 996+ TT) and a chassis that is both stiffer and lighter than the 993s built along side as their production was winding down. Didn't want a roller as I wanted matching numbers for the engine and chassis so I could get a COA down the road. I think 997s have a premium for round headlights and a slightly nicer interior. So what will I have with spending roughly $40k? A daily driver that will have a 3.8 liter BEAST of an engine that will be a bit of a sleeper and much more reliable than any TT or later version over time/milage. A year of enjoying it before it went on a 4 month 'spa treatment' in Cleveland, GA. Something that I will enjoy and keep as long as gasoline is sold. So why did I go this route? I like the early 996's looks. I never had a problem with the parts sharing on the Boxster and saw that as upgrading the 986 with the GT1 looks vs. devaluing the 996. I like that it is one of the lighter versions made and that it will always have the mechanical communication that later versions won't/can't due to e-throttle and ever increasing size and weight. (I think the 991 is a nice GT car, but they've gotten bigger and heavier...). I like that I can work on it - replaced coils, plugs & o-rings and exhaust after the first month; replaced one of the variocam covers to solve an oil leak and will be revising the suspension with Tarrett and other parts upon its return. It is both an ongoing project and a hobby that I enjoy that I'm not sure that I'd get out of a newer version. Its a simple, but complex car. The first time I drove one, I knew I wanted to get one. And it will continue to evolve as I have fun tweaking it in between drives.

If you have to ask the question , it�s probably not the car for you

Dive in head first or don't, IMO the 996 is all in or don't bother

Yep they are all junk and you should run away while you still can. Posts like this aren�t just inflammatory, they are all too common here. The sky is falling minority clearly rule the roost. The contention that only Porsche m96/7 engines have issues is laughable. The vaunted GM LS engines have well documented issues too. You think 20k for an engine rebuild and improvement is unreasonable.... you should price Ferrari maintenance.

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That sounds about right. You're looking at a 20-ish year old German car. German performance car. I'm just visiting from 986 Boxster land, but I don't think it's that different. You can get a wonderful driving experience for not a lot of money, but with that comes risk. You want an engaging $20k sports car that isn't likely to cost more than a thousand bucks to fix, if it does go wrong? Buy a Mazda Miata, they're rather good and not hard to find. You want that flat six wail behind you? There is no substitute.

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Great post IMO, coming from someone who's researching now. My goal is to find a decent example with 60-80k, and no more than 100k unless it checks every other box for me, miles for under 20k. This will leave us with at least 5k budgeted for fixes. If the worst happens, whether 1 month or 5 years after purchase, we can afford to rebuild the motor. I don't really expect that to happen though. If anything, I can see a elective rebuild if I truly love the car and decide to keep it once the kids are out of college vs buy a new(er) one.

Stretch to a 996TT, or 996 GT3, or a 997.1 (06 or later) and you will have no issues.

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Not so sure I agree with the highlighted recommendation above...

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The only problem with that is the difference in price. I'd love a TT or even better a GT3, but the cost of entry is 2-4x a 996 coupe (high mileage tip cabs are at the low end of the range).

why dont you just buy a Infiniti FX, Toyota Sequoia, BMW M3, CHevy Tahoe/Suburban, spend $25k on one that will be worth $5k in less than 5 years. Hey you lost 20k

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This! This is the reason I do not see an elected rebuild as a big deal on these cars. If something happens, you can take advantage of the current builders out there and get a truly superb and reliable motor built and enjoy the car for years to come. Or, you can sell it at a loss and buy something that loses $20k in value over the next 5 years, as you said. Perhaps there is some flawed logic in there somewhere, but I am a Porsche fanatic and I wouldn't have it any other way.

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As a potential owner a rebuild doesn't really scare me, elected or not. Sure, it would suck if it's not elective, but you come out the other side with a vehicle that should last a very, very long time. We've factored a non-elective rebuild into our decision to search for a car. Once we have a car, and the kids are out of college, an elective rebuild would be a consideration if i love it enough that I don't want to upgrade to a newer model that will depreciate faster lol! These things are already pretty much rock bottom. I hope to buy one and run with it for a long time.

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As I stated above (and a Rennlist �engine expert� (Porschetech3) started after I did, you�re taking a 10% chance. And it�s not a �it�s worth it� or �life is too short� chance, it�s simply math and fact. As I mentioned, any high performance car is built with performance over reliability in mind. All known issues with the M96 are a result of this mentality. Same with a Ferrari, Lambo, etc. If reliability is at the core of your purchase, get a Honda or a Toyota. Otherwise ANY year, make and model sports car comes with the risk of costly repairs. That�s just how it works and the 996 is no exception. The biggest factor with the 996 is that they can currently can be bought for a fraction of their original cost, which is not the same for most other cars in their category.

Not junk; but more like marginal design safety factors, combined with over cost constraining and less than optimal QC of the various pieces that form them. Meaning if you get lucky and take care these things can last a long time; but a lot won't and pushing them harder reveals all their weaknesses all the quicker.

If you are meticulous about your stuff and a diy person who watches their car like a hawk and does religious jake raby maintenance schedules. NO they are not junk If you are used to driving a Japanese car or something new and very reliable. Don't know much about cars or care too learn much. Yes it will be junk

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Spot on, and the cost of the maintenance cost is much higher. If the cost of a rebuild was $4000 this thread wouldn�t exist. These engines aren�t tolerant to abuse, overheating over revving, and marginal designs with lengthy oil change intervals from the factory don�t help. I can remember changing oil in a 99 Carrera that had 9500 miles on it. The oil filter was recommended to be changed at something like half the miles and this was done. At 9500 miles the oil looked like something I would be ashamed of draining from my mower. Porsche recommended 15000 miles between changes which is IMO is too long. Put some debris in front of the radiators, and cook one of the low speed resistors for the fans and failure is lurking.

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Many people can afford to buy a Porsche. Few can afford to keep it. It�s not a used Accord or Camry. Buy a 15-20 year old Silverado. See how much you spend on repairs. 996�s had problems when new for a very specific reason�garage queens died early. Now, they have some problems for a very specific reason�they�re old. Old cars� motors blow up. I intend to drive mine till the clutch needs replaced then install the Solution. And, I know full well, the engine might fail on the way home from the shop. TC

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A buddy of mine had a gorgeous, low mileage �11 SL500. One of the hydraulic motors in the convertible top failed. It cost several hundred bucks to fix. He asked the mech if the others (something like 11 or 12 in the top) might fail. The mechanic said �there are 10 more in there and they�re all the same age�. My friend traded it for a CPO�d 428i convertible. I replaced a computer on my wonderful 328xi wagon. $750 for one computer. Gone. Couldn�t afford to be bled dry for a �regular� car. TC

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Well, when they spin due to **** poor oiling, then there is something wrong with them. To discuss porsche mechanicals, which are not the holy grail of anything. I own a 986 with an M96...well actually its the 2nd M96 because the first one failed. Also rebuilding my buddies m97 which also failed. Anecdotes are fun, but realistically, the person with the most experience with these cars seems to have created a lot of value by engineering parts to fix porsche's screwups

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Well, I own a 996 GT3 with 23K miles and a 997.1 (2006) with 90K miles so I can provide at least one data point for the two cars. They are fabulous as long as the maintenance is done. The Gt3 will be sparingly driven because it is special, but the 997 is driven everyday and will be driven everyday until the engine dies somewhere in the 150Kmiles range, then I'll put another engine in it and drive it until the whole car is buried. It will be my wife's last car.

If I were you, I would do a search on this forum for all the people who have blown engines and see what they have to say. Here's one to ask: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...um-in-oil.html

I would recommend dropping that piece of german trash and dropping in something lighter, more available, cheaper, faster and ultimately more reliable. something like a Subaru 2.5 turbo.

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Don't some of the Subaru engines have issues with head gaskets, head studs, and rod bearings?

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Uh...YEP!

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Two "yeps" here...one for each blown engine..

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My wife drives an '08 FX35 that now has 160k miles on it. In its 11 years of life with 7-10k mile oil change intervals the only unscheduled maintenance it has ever needed is a wheel bearing . Best $20k we've ever lost.

I hate to break it to you, but you're not going to be able to rebuild it for $7k even if you do the work yourself. Having $5k in reserve for misc isn't bad advice, but that won't cover an engine failure. I'll let others post what their rebuilds have actually ended up costing but my gut feeling is that 12k is probably the absolute cheapest you could do it properly. (edit: I'm talking about rebuilding an engine that has failed - not a perfectly good one that just needs a refresh). That said, I think the engine is pretty stout. It may seem like lots of people have issues, but they made TONS of these things, and it is a pretty tight community so when there is a problem you hear about it. I took my C4S with > 100k miles to the track for 2 days and it ran like a champ. I find that pretty remarkable. During the event several cars had mechanical failures, none of them were Porsches. IF an engine failure would mean total ruin for you, then you aren't ready to buy one. It's a possibility with any car, especially higher performance ones. If it would suck, but wouldn't be the end of the world, then I feel like its totally worth the risk. I'd also recommend getting the IMS Solution to make it an even safer bet. Cheers Charlie

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My daughter drives an 06 Miata with 150k. Thing is bulletproof. With $1200 in suspension upgrades, its pretty fun. I think this could be the perfect car for OP. It comes in cabs and coupe, manual and auto, and for <$100/post here he can be in one and we can close this thread!

Hey Everyone - Thank you again for all the input. I'll close with saying I think most of the people on here recognize that the M96 engine comes with a recognizable level of risk and that most here are willing to accept that. I'm the one that will have to come to terms with that. Is it better for me to buy a $15K car and hold $10K in reserve for engine problems, OR, should I hold out for a cheap 996TT with Mezger engine and just expect a bullet proof engine with wear and tear on normal parts. (Hey, I found the thread that has a number of TTs with over 300K and one with 600K)... or, do I just go a different route and go back to a 914 or seek out a project 911. And if I'm being honest, I don't really think the engines are "junk" - it was a bit sensationalized to capture attention. I realize they are finely crafted engines that with the help of Toyota revolutionized the 911 as we know it. I guess a better title might have been "How Failure Prone Do You Believe the M96 Is?" or "How Much of a Risk Do You Think You Have With a NA 996?" Best

Huge Miata fan. If the OP wants a red Guard Red 2002 4S with 71k, please let me know. Bought the car 1k ago, installed LN (certified installer) when I picked up. Nothing wrong with it, great car. 3rd Porsche, passion just changed.

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Though the TT sports the amazing Mezger engine, it's not to say they don't have any problems (look up coolant hard lines on the turbo's...) They're all "high strung thoroughbreds" to some extent. They do break, and they're expensive to fix when they do! Good luck with the hunt!

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One must-do item for 996TT is to address the coolant pipes issue which requires an engine drop. This alone will generate 'while you're there' to-do items that can quickly deplete one's wallet. Obviously that will be cheaper than rebuilding an engine, and less frustrating.

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I recently rebuilt the engine in my 99 996 for just under $7,000. With Nikasil cylinder! It can be done. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...mix-issue.html I still think it a great design overall, just poorly executed. Having said that,I love my 996!

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Wow! Just finished reading through your thread. Nice work! I was assuming needing to buy a new short block from Porsche (6k) as a start point. Thanks for sharing!

Mine works all day every day I drive it, so, hardly junk. I'd much rather have this than a BMW or Merc or Jag of the same vintage. My 2012 BMW was more unreliable than my 2003 911. Forums you're only going to hear the 'bad stuff' and hear half-truths to posture up a position the OP needs a thread to be guided. Most all of us don't fall asleep worrying our car is going to implode the next day. If you can't afford to fix it and run it, then don't buy it. It was an expensive car to buy new, so it's expensive to fix. It's pretty simple.

I love these discussions, and appreciate both sides. I'm going to go with nearly junk. Not completely junk, but adjacent to junk. My problem with the engine is that when they begin to fail, there's a very, very fine line between modest cost repair and catastrophic costly damage. IMSB failure is either caught in time(rare) or destroys the engine. Rod bearing same. Bore scoring same. Just about every issue comes down to full rebuild. It's a real nice car in many respects, and the chassis, brakes, trans, and suspension are just fine for a Porsche performance. But - this engine just hasn't lived up to the hype. Now, I'm not expecting Toyota reliability but I wouldn't mind having Acura NSX type reliability. I think what large picture comes down to is that the M96 engine had to fit into a price point to make money at a time when Porsche was in serious trouble. Symmetrical head use means requiring an IMS, and what IDIOT decided on a ball bearing to support it? This is beyond stupid. Thee are a ton of other examples, and all of them have to have a 'Raby' fix(or some other vendor). I don't want to buy a $12k roller, then spend $20k on the correct engine, and months of down time just so I can have a nice drive on wknds. I sold my car just because I would be driving down the road thinking; 'what was that? is it going to blow? do I hear ticking? should I change oil? How are my chain tensioners?' Because the result is that any one of these things is going to cost me another $20k to put right. I liked driving the car, but in the back of my mind was always the knowledge that I'm one shift, or corner, or warm up away from disaster.

Acura NSX reliability? I knew some pretty rich guys that stopped racing their NSX and bought Miata�s because they aren�t that great and wicked expensive to repair too.

I think the problem is that rebuilds are so expensive and the junkyard/ebay option is not very attractive. For VQ/LS you can buy a junkyard engine for $1000 or spend $20000 on a high end rebuild and anything inbetween. With M96 there are very limited options, buying a junkyard engine for $6000 that might explode tomorrow doesn't make sense. FSI absolutely makes sense but cost more than the car is worth and is a lot of money for most people. Besides that most parts are that expensive imo.

Jesus, some of you guys are dreary as hell and must have nothing better to do then analyze what's going to go wrong with your car. All cars have issues, I'm an original owner of a 2004 c4s cab and I've done nothing but change the oil, replace the alternator and the pistons in the cab roof. This car owes me nothing and I run it hard, just this weekend I took it on a 7hr roadtrip where at one point I had it doing 123mph. My engine is as bullet proof as any I've owned over the yrs. My other "problem" engine is an original 2005 ford excursion with the dreaded 6.0 diesel engine, once I did the egr delete at 15k miles I haven't done a thing to it other than repaint it after 14 yrs. I'll run both of these vehicles till my kids take the keys from me or I can't fit in the 996 anymore! Buy the damn car if you can afford it and want it if it's a clean original vehicle, enjoy it and dismiss 75% of the negativity on this board.

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Just the typical looser post, criticizing German engineering? really???, Boxster saved the company when Porsche was struggling. Go back to your Prius forum; all of us, that we still here is because either love them or hate them (sometimes); we still have our 996 in our garages and regardless of how many cars or more reliable cars that we have, we enjoy the looks and handling of our 996s.

" FSI absolutely makes sense but cost more than the car is worth and is a lot of money for most people." I love when people buy cars for pennies on the dollar ($15k for a car that cost $80-$100k new...) and the complain about how little the car is "worth"... It's mind boggling that people can't understand the cost difference between being able to buy something and being able to afford the cost of ownership...

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No, his block was fine from what I've read. I still sit in the garage and pinch myself to make sure it's real...$4K roller and a good used motor ($6K) an AOS scare and that's it. One fine machine if you ask me "One Mans Junk, is Another Mans Treasure"!

Raby is not the only person in America that can rebuild a 996 engine and get it right. He does the best marketing of his skills and yes, can "fix", some of the problem areas. But bottom line is that rebuilding one of our engines with stock parts is not out of reach for most of us. No, our engines are NOT junk!

The crazy thing about all of these M96 woe is me threads are the economics. It�s just not worth X.... Does anyone actually think a Porsche is an investment that has a distinct value and is only worth X, but definitely not worth Y? When you bought a Porsche you made a concrete emotional choice, and did what you wanted to do. If you are worried about money, walking, cycling, public transportation, ride sharing or a used Toyota Corolla all make way more sense. I get the M96 has weaknesses. Addressing them can be expensive. If you can�t accept that, sell and move on. If you do accept, put on your big boy pants, and stop being a whiny little...... If you expected to turn a profit, well then, here�s your sign.

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I thought I read, JR is putting out a video series for the DIY rebuilders and LNE will be offering complete rebuild kits?

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My FIL has a 2003 Excursion that literally is in the shop every other month due to engine problems or A/C or something else just flat out going wrong. However, it's his baby and has had it since new and is a natural gas valves tycoon, so it's his hobby to keep it fixed and running. It's an absolute monster to drive (which he makes me do often and I oblige lol) but it's a thing of love, just like our 996s. I have had my 03 C4S since Dec. 2017, third owner, bot. around 79k miles, just hit over 92k now, and have never once been stranded in it, had engine issues, or really anything that weren't maintenance items that are common (like coolant reservoir leaking, mine was original), hood struts, engine and tranny mounts, CV boots, etc. that simply wear out over time with use. I cannot say that about my ex BMW, Cadillac, current Audi and current Lexus. You know, 'reliable' brands (okay not BMW... god that car...). But yeah, this sums it up for me too. It's a thing of love and I'm fine with the maintenance costs which really haven't been that bad. Plan to keep it another ~2 years or so then go to a 991.1 C2S.

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I wouldn't say that at all. I often hear of the 31 something "modes of failure". But I can honestly say I can only think of 4-5 that I consider unique to 996's. Being a fan of Porsche I will give them an "excuse" for some them. The borescoring issue that we are now seeing more and more of I believe is due wholly to the EU Environmental Association, (the equivalent of USA EPA) that banned the Ferrostan piston coating process (iron/tin coating) used in 928 and 944 Alusil engines and early 986 m96 996 3.4 engines. The latter "Ferroprint" process ( much like Grafal) is more of a plastic coating with steel particles embedded that has shown not to hold up as well.I truly believe that if Porsche was allowed to continue the Ferrostan process, the bore scoring issues would be nill.

Something that I find interesting is WHY these engines are so expensive. Its not like the 996 was a limited production car. Just lack of people who work or rebuild them?

I have had mine for five years. The 996 is so much more than an engine! In my opinion its the rawest and best evolution of the 911. The handling and ride are unmatched. Drive one, then drive a 997 or newer. No comparison. Buy one. The good examples are destined for greatness!

Porsche finally got it right with the 997.2. The engine is bullet proof and you'll sleep better at night.

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Bulletproof? You haven�t read about the common problems all automakers are having with DI yet? And actual bullets? I have some WW2 vintage tungsten core bullets.....

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Chevy made over 100,000,000 small-block V8's from '54 to 2003. A hundred million. That's why parts are cheaper and more plentiful - when you make that much of something for that long, the aftermarket has an opportunity to spend money on R&D and make it back over the long run. Anything not stamped out by the millions is a boutique engine...even if it isn't an especially interesting boutique engine. The 5.7 liter V8 is also a low-RPM, fairly low compression workhorse; there are a whole lot of SBCs running everything from fishing boats to jet engine startup carts. They're everywhere, eat abuse, and do not require a PhD to rebuild.

A bullet proof P car engine is available in aisle 6 next to world peace? Lol

Well, motoo344 brings up an interesting question. Approximately 150,000 M96 engines were installed, of both 3.4 and 3.6 flavors. Add about 5% for shelf stock and we have 162,500 engines produced for the non-Mezger Carreras. Wiki, Streather and HowtoPorsche.com are sourced. A rebuilt 3.6 from a reputable source will start at $16,000. A motor rebuilt by a Porsche specialist, with tweaks to address cylinder coatings, cooling passages, D-chunking, valves, oil circulation, custom ring install, etc, will run north of $19,000. Then tack on the labor for install. GM built over 248,000 Vettes, 212,000 Camaros, 148,000 Firebird models over the same time period using the LS1. Over 609,000 cars. So four times the amount of engines built, with GM-trained mechanics literally around every corner, to fix or rebuild them when they broke. That number doesn’t take into account all the other related engines based on the LS1. Today, a crate 410hp LS1 runs $9,000. We joke about the ‘Porsche tax’, but it is most certainly true. Not many shops want the liability of a repair gone wrong on the legendary Carrera. The dealers know and bank on the fact. Heck, I can’t get people who are supposed to be suspension and wheel experts to even touch a 911. Shame on you Discount Tire and Tire Discounters. Chuckle. It takes a bespoke skill set to truly master the nuances of our particular powerplant. Those people are few and far between and the expertise comes at a premium. Once upon a time I could drop and swap a VW engine in 1.5 hours. Correct me if I’m off, but it takes 10 hours, book rate, to drop and put up the engine. The compact design of the high output flat six creates complexities no average mechanic is used to dealing with. So many things to go expensively wrong. You want to own a Porsche. Good or bad, the 996 with the pain-in-the-*** M96, is the best holy crap this is amazing car out there for the buy-in. Very true for now. It has been said these are $30,000+ cars, one way or another. The later 997.2 prices are coming down enough that I envision folks looking at ‘affordable’ driver Pcars, shifting their search to that model soon enough. For those of us sticking with our venerable 996, we just need to keep a good indie, a nice tool bench, some garage space and a crap ton of forbearance. Perhaps rebuild costs will begin to creep down soon. A long while back Mr Raby said something to the effect of, if you’re spending the big bucks for a proper engine build, you should: 1) really love your car, and 2) want to keep it for 20+ years. I agree. It is a shame we learn of so many moneypits on RL. I sometimes lose track of the fact that there must be 100,000 people who own a proper 996/M96 that runs reliably. Knock on wood.

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LS style engines have been in production since 98 and are literally in everything. There are millions of then. Your numbers don�t take into account any of the boring truck or SUV variants or anything since the LS1 like the LS2, LS3 or L99..... so dang many. And that doesn�t include any of the relatively inexpensive crate engines you can get from GM. I�d conservatively guess that at least 4 million LS engines exist.

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Yup. All true. I was only comparing apples to apples: sports cars, same era/run, one particular variant.

Those of you still on the fence about these engines - feel free to PM me. I'll pay for shipping to take the junk off your hands. Maybe even throw in a couple of Quatloos for your trouble.

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Lol! I get that reference!

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You admit to being a geek, then.

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LMAO... Had to google it NICE !!!!!

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OMG. That was a great episode though.

One part of me gets pissed when I see a thread like this started. After I settle down I realize that this is the reason I was able to get one hell of a car at a very affordable price. I won’t take a defensive stance on this type of propaganda. All I can tell you is that I love my car and it was a bargain. If the motor is junk I cannot understand why she purrs like a kitten and runs like a cheetah.

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I agree, there are always opposite opinions, especially on the forums. I have driven my 996 for 12 years, 75k miles, at a cost of 14.7 cents per mile. Maybe one day I'll get WOKE and realize I have been smiling all this time, but in reality I was duped and was driving "junk". When I die I will leave it to my kids to sell as "junk" to the vultures among us, but I will still have gotten all my Smiles per Miles in, so no worries !!!

I get that there are way more SBC/LS motors outhere, so parts and expertise to rebuild them is cheaper. But the reality is that they do not fail nor have all the issues our engines have. Hell other Porsche engines of the same era don't have these issues, so I have to say that on an engines reliability scales the M96 lean very much towards the Junk side. Regardless, I love the car and enjoy it as much as I can, I am well towards completing all the preventive items recommended we do in order to increase the engine life, without taking it apart. In the meantime I have started a Porsche rebuilt fund in my head, so when the time comes it won't be a big shock. Hmm. I wonder if FSI would do layaway, hey Mr Raby, new business model. LOL.

On Blu-ray you can see amazing original colors on uniforms and sets. IMO it was the best tv show ever and more amazing done with insufficient funding and almost no studio support. Best female outfits too.

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My oldest son would disagree with you on that. Google Castech head crack on 5.3 Vortec (LS based) engines.He just spent 7k for a Jasper crate engine and install. Other common problems as well !!

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You should really do more research. I barely know LS engines, but the early gen 1 LS1s had major oil pump failure issues. The C6 Z06 and C7 LT1 both generated class action lawsuits due to high failure rates. The LS6s in the first C5 Z06s had valve springs fail destroying engines. There are toms of aftermarket companies that specialize in addressing all of these issues too. Keep believing the M96 is the only engine problems though..... I�d hate to be guilty of double speak or thought crime.

Every vendor has had their day in the dog house,, GM has had runs of engines as well, the 2009 to 2013 ecotec 4 cylinders have most of the same failures at about the same rate as the 996.. Smething about the 7K rpm shif when you floor it up an on ramp.. LOL light pressure ring failures, timing chains, high oil consumption.. Toyota has been building poor V6's in the trucks since 1986, their head gasket failures after 80K are ridiculous.. Honda fail rates in the 80K mile range get up there too. Especially the single cam engines.. Subaru hasen't been able to truly hold a head gasket on their turbo engines,, basically ever.. few make it much past 90K.

Yes they all had the failures, that can�t be denied. But if you look at the percentages of failures the M96 is way up there.

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I've been hesitant to comment on this thread as there are people that are posting information regarding these motors being junk with no supporting data. Just opinions. Umm, the LS motors do fail. Every motor can fail. Trying to compare the LS to the M96 is not a close or fair comparison. I chatted with a local independent shop this week and had a discussion with them regarding the M96 due to the comments in this thread. In their 25 year experience being in business and working on these cars, they state the M96 is a great engine, with no more issues than any other Porsche engine they work on. They have only seen a couple of scored bores, no total engine failures, or any other major issues as stated in this discussion. A small percentage of people have issues and post their frustrations on forums such as this. Most owners do not experience these issues and just drive their cars. The owners wife drives a 996. They said they love the 996 platform and do realize some of the maintenance issues that need to be addressed. IMSB. I think they are the only authorized shop for the installation of the LN bearings. Retro and solution. Flame on! Kyle

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One of my detailing clients dads was a Porsche Master tech for 35 years and he said he loves the 996 era. What is tough is that when they do fail its just so expensive to fix so it makes a failing engine seem that much worse. No doubt that every company has had their share of issues.

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I support what you say here, but I'd like to know how many 996 customers they've actually have/had since 1999?

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Considering there were more 996 cars built than 993 and 964 combined, you could logic that either a high or low number answer to this question is a win for the 996. If this answer is a lot, then they have a lot of data points to back up their claim. If just a few it lets you know just how little these cars need compared to all 911�s built over the decade before the 996. I genuinely hate it for anyone that�s bought a 996 and had engine failure, I really do. But facts don�t lie, and those I�ve stated in this thread (twice) and others answer the OP�s question. Anything else is just a debate on various opinions.

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There's a lot of these things on the street! I am presuming it's a more rare bird on the islands.

I got my 996 almost a year ago. Between the long winter (until June), combined with the fact that my puppy (now 15 months old) doesn’t fit in the back seat, I have only driven it about 1000 miles. The car was ppi’ed including borescope. The Indy that did it works on many Porsche’s including 996’s. He has never seen an ims failure and 2 bore scored cars. Car has under 50000 miles. I had the Solution installed along with flywheel/clutch, rms, AOS, waterpump during the first month I got the car. Everytime I start the car, I fear hearing a ticking sound. One day it smoked. Then I remember that it was started to be washed and put back in garage. My point is, I think failure is not worth worrying about, until it fails. Which it may never. My 2000 Subaru Outback went 300k kms. With no issues. My 2010 Subaru Forester blew the tranny at 135k kms. Moving forward, I am going to focus on enjoying my 996. (Oh, I am also meticulous on maintenance to all my cars).

My X51 Can't think of another Porsche motor that has a worse track record or a class action suit filed against.....and lost.

There is also the issue that the average buyer of a P-car new has the money to pool with the others and actually pose a threat.. Like I mentioned, the GM ecotec has a WAY higher failure count for timing chains than the 996 does for IMS,, of course they made more of them per year likely than 996 porches produced total.. GM lost and had to increase the engine warranty to 100K miles.. But no payout really to owners.. I payed an additional 900 bucks for a 120K Bumper to bumper warranty on a 2012 Terrain last yearwhen I figured out I bought one in the target zone.. We shall see how the gamble plays out.

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This should be made a sticky at the top of this forum!!! ALL earlier 911 models have common issues that result in $$$ maintenance bills. NO ONE wanted early 964s due to their issues. 1995 993s were shunned for their quirks. 911SCs and Carrera 3.2s would have an engine overhaul before 100K miles alot of times (either by choice to freshen up the motor or out of necessity) Only a few years ago a $15K 911sc was common and a $60K 993 Turbo was in every local news paper.... GOD KNOWS what the future models will require with all the added tech that'll likely have a heart attack at different age milestones. The bottom line is today's "cheap" 911 is tomorrows "I have to have it model"... Budget $45K and you'll be a happy camper. The 996 platform is GLORIOUS compared to the earlier stuff and certainly more driver focused than the later cars with all their traction/driver aid nonsense.

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Very true about the LS engines, but the major difference is replacing/fixing an LS car is a MUCH easier decision than it is for 986/987/996/997 owners. Last year, I spoke with a guy at VIR who had a C6 Z06. He blew his original engine. He said it was pretty cheap getting his car back on the road since he was able to source a cheaper LS and have it built to a reliable Z06 engine. He bought one from a wrecked SUV. Finding a rebuilder was easy, too. And just remember, cars with LS engines are driven far harder and more often than the M96 equipped cars. Of course their flaws will show up. Not many are blowing up while at a traffic light or cruising at 30 mph. I know lots of engines have inherent design flaws. The difference is when you can resolve them easily and for low prices vs the M96 that requires so many specialty tools, few people with the knowledge to rebuild, and so many engine internals need to be scrapped. The reason why the M96 is a POS is because it has so many design flaws, far fewer people can rebuild them, it's expensive and extensive to properly rebuild, and it takes much longer to rebuild.

Also the VW timing tensioner lawsuit, mine snapped at 103k miles, missed the cut off for reimbursement by 3k miles. Luckily mine didn't grenade the engine and was about as cheap to fix as you could have hoped. I think that it is a good point that when buying any car you should budget for possible issues. Its just with these its a lot more.

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Well, I admit - I'm pretty loose. You got that right. Why is the 996 so cheap? We know they're cheap. But the reason is already well known. The engine is fragile. You talk about German engineering like they had an unlimited budget to build these engines. And you recognize that the company was in financial trouble when the engine was designed. i say again - what kind of ****-for-brains used a ball bearing to support a driven shaft? Maybe they saved $3 per engine doing that, and look what it did to the whole car! I enjoyed a 996 for a while. It was a good car, with a sketchy engine. That's why there are threads like that that pop up every month or two. Since you got so triggered by my honest assessment, the best thing you can do now is put me on ignore, so you won't get butthurt anymore.

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Kawasaki, Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki, KTM, Husqvarna,Mercury Marine, Evenrude, Johnson,SeeDoo ect. all use ball bearing and roller bearings on the Crankshaft' and rods instead of "plain bearings".. Ball bearings, roller bearings, and plain bearings all have about the same "expected life"(according to the Weibull data base 40k-50k hours) which is way more than the "expected life" of the majority of other components of the engine. The abnormal failure rate of the single row ball bearings could not be foreseen.

I for one am somewhat happy of these issues, it allowed me to purchase a Porsche at a price I could justify, this is a roll of the dice of course because when the thing blows, then I am backup at the high price. So far it has worked out well. Since my car has an 07 engine with the large bearing, maybe this won't fail, but something else will, jaja. And this is the issue here right, there are over 20 documented failure points on this engine, I don't know any other engine that has this many know documented problem, then you add the cost of repairs and is very hard to say this is a reliable motor. Also don't forget this was an over $100k car 20 years ago, not a cheap chevy Impala, or Camaro, and I think this bites some uninformed buyer. Many will see a 20 year old car with 20k miles that sold new for over $100k, now going for under $20k and will think is a great deal, and it is, but there is a high possibility of an additional $20k surprise. Is the car still a good deal at $40k, I don't know that is up to each of us to decide.

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This "over 20 documented failure points on this engine" means absolutely nothing to me, although I hear similar all the time. Do you have this documented failure points? There are 4 main problems with the m96 engine. I have worked in dealerships for over 45 years, all the repairs I have made on cars are "documented", many times several a day, for 45 years. So "documented failure points" means nothing to me.. I have 20 years with Ford Motor Company, 10 years with Mitsubishi, and 10 years with Porsche, and 6 years in retirement. If you understand the design, the reason for the failures, you will see these engines are not "junk". They have unfortunate issues and "reliability" is not pristine, but certainly not "junk"... Light ,Powerful , Reliable , pick TWO !!!! As Scott says, if you have any of this "junk" laying around and won't to be rid of it for 10 cents a pound, I am a player..

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In business, it�s Fast, Cheap, Good, pick TWO !!!

The M96 is junk if and only if something causes it to self-destruct, taking the crank, rods, and all the other goodies with it. It�s junk when there�s not much left and what�s left has little value. So the IMSB debacle has caused more junk than it could have. Otherwise, it�s just like any other 911 non-Mezger engine. The argument that an engine costs just as much as the car is no good as a proof point for junk. If it was, any of the air cooled SC cars, 3.2 Carreras, 964s would have been in the same boat about 15 years ago. The fact that the 996 is so cheap is a plus, not a minus. Engine rebuilds for ANY 911 are going to cost a lot of money regardless of the make.

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Same here...$4K roller + $6K low mile AT motor and my 40 year dream has come true...If my motor fails, I still have a roller worth $4-6K. Rinse, wash, repeat! I bet there are more 996 out there running without issues than there are that have failed!

After reading 1000000 posts on Rennlist about these engines my conclusion it's all about preemptive maintenance. Seems like a lot of issues could be resolved by just adding this to the Porsche recommended maintenance schedule: - Replace oil every 3000 miles / 6 months - Replace waterpump every 30k miles - Replace coolant tank every 30k miles / 3 years - Replace coils at 50k miles if original - Replace chain pads every 50k if original - Replace IMSB every 50k miles I will have to spend a few thousands on some engine work at 100k miles. It sucks since I bought the car for $15k, but it's the first major repair in 20 years and 100000 miles! Sure my Tundra truck has had almost 0 repairs in 140k miles, but it's a truck not an awesome sports car....

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I'd do the IMSB with the "Solution" and never touch it again!

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My strategy is to improve the engine every way possible & if something beyond my control happens (collision) I can remove & reinstall MY engine in another Porsche after buying back from Insurance co.

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Unless you get rear ended ...

I for one am glad the 996 has a somewhat bad reputation. I think it is more than just the engine though. I have talked to other 996 owners in the "real world", and some of them have given me a blank stare when I asked them about what they have done with their IMSB. They didn't know what I was talking about. A few others had heard about it, but weren't sure what the IMS was. I think the mindset of the typical potential buyer is that they have heard there is the potential for expensive maintenance and repairs which either scares them off or makes them want to buy it "cheap". I think the headlights are more of an issue with many potential buyers because the 996 does not have the classic 911 look that they are used to. To me, data that backs this up is the significantly higher selling price of a 2005 997 than an equivalent 996. The early 2005 997 came with the M96 engine with the small single row IMSB. I don't see those selling at a discount. I am very happy with my 1999. I found it locally with a significant electrical issue that prevented it from being test driven. It had 89k miles, was a two owner, and had Euro GT3 seats with some other goodies. I paid 11.5k and trailered it home. I diagnosed a bad ground in about 15 minutes, literally, and had it ready to go in a couple of hours (although it did need a new alternator). How else could I have gotten such an awesome car for so little?

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My engine came from a rear ended 996!

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99s are the best.

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Really? Lol. I figured a good hit back there and the engine is done. Guess its better protected than I thought.

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Bill just used some jb weld and got 'er all back together. 😁

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Nice! Well done on that purchase! I paid $20 000 cdn for ours ...

I see Southern Man just created a post "Just rolling along..." Where he took a picture of his odometer at 177,777 miles. On the original engine. On a 2002, which seems to be more prone to broken timing chains and bore scoring than the other years (based on my observations in the forum over the past 2 1/2 years).

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I do not have these failures documented, but they are posted and well accepted all over this and other forums, they are also constantly socialized by people that are considered experts on this topic. They may mean nothing to you, but sure have a lot of meaning to the community. I am happy with my 996 and enjoy every mile I drive on it, and as stated before I am ok with its issues. I believe the topic of this post was in reference to the quality of the engine, and the facts as I have read them here and other places not from personal experience, leads to believe these engines are not the most reliable out there, there is even a legal settlement that document this. Furthermore there is an industry around developing basic parts in order to make our 996 more reliable, not faster or more potent, just more reliable. Are there other engines outhere with issues, I am sure there are, but here we are talking about this one.

I just got back from a long drive with my 20 year old piece of junk. I guess people recognize what garbage it is because it keeps their turning heads. Many oil changes and more than a few sets of tires. What a piece of crap.

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His car obviously isn't a member of the forum and doesn't know it's not just supposed to keep working. Mine suffers from the same affliction.

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This is a great point, I wonder how much money and time I would spent if I didn't join this forum

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Yea, ok. These 20, or some say over 30 failures documented do mean a lot to the community. That's why they keep repeating it. But I say there are 4 issues I would say can be given exclusively to the m96 engines, The other documented failures are common to engines in general. Outside the 4 main issues with the m96, they are as reliable as any other engine that is turned 7k on a regular basis. For instance timing chain failure, I have seen timing chain failure on M96 engines and I'm sure it is part of the 20-30 something failures documented on M96 here. But IWIS makes the chains for this and many other engines. I believe the timing chain failure on the m96 is no worse than on the 5.0 Coyote or Voodoo engine and others. Same for valve springs, Porsche does not make the valve springs, but valve spring failure happens. Having worked in the industry for 45 years I can say the valve spring failure on the M96 is no worse than industry standard. Reliability is a relative term, when using it you must include what you are comparing it to. (outside the 4 main issues).. That's why I say using the term "20-30 something modes of failure" is not a fair term, and is inaccurate in talking about the reliability of the M96.

I solute your patience PT3 �speaking of community, you are a true asset to this one!

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Here, here.

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Thanks guys, I try to be of help to the community. It seems the "Murphy's Law" mentality prevails here at times. and gets to me. I try to be technically correct and emotionally positive at the same time. I hope it gets contagious here. I was "Pro H20" from the word Go. The air cooled engines were long due to be replaced by water cooling from a performance standpoint.

These rationalizations are both self-serving and exculpatory. Saying the problem is with this component or that component, and it should be excused as a outlier, and not taken as a part of the system is specious. The M96 "engine" is the topic under discussion. To say that the engine is fine, except for _________, which happens to cause a catastrophic failure is like saying the operation was a great success, but sadly - the patient died on the table. "Well, it was only one of the six pistons that suffered D chunk. I don't see how that means the whole engine is at fault". C'mon, one failure of any of the hundreds of components inside the engine is still a catastrophic failure. This is dealt with in aviation engines all the time. We have something called TBO which means Time Before Overhaul. The number is usually a function of one or maybe two highly stressed components inside the engine, but the TBO refers to the entire assembly. In my engine, the main bearings will last for 3-4000 hours of operation with adequate lube. But the exh valves and guides are good for maybe 900-1600 hours. Lucky for me the head and cyl assembly can be removed, refurbished, and installed without a complete overhaul. I've dropped a valve in an air cooled VW before as well and just toss another jug on, change the oil and good to go. The M96 is just a finicky, low reliability engine. Within the past 2 weeks, I can count the number of threads on rennlist that go; 'help, my 996 engine packed it in last night' or something just like that. The market is efficient. There's a reason the M96 engined Porsches are so cheap. The word is out, and has been for years. I double dog dare ya to go to google right now and type in "Porsche engine problems". I will bet the top 5 hits will relate to the M96 engine in a 996 or Boxster. I had mine but the bloom is most definitely off the rose. Sorry, but reality is setting in. Lots of shops out there LOVE the 996/Boxster. Great revenue stream, they are all out shopping for yachts.

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I see your point and agree, there is a lot of information shared here and in other places that probably do increase the "feeling" these engines are less reliable than what they are. You also touch on the high revving quality of them, they do produce a lot of power for their size, even more when you consider their design era. I have nothing against the M96 or the car, but these engines are very complex, and do have a few design characteristics that are questionable when it comes to long term reliability. You reference 4 issues only, problem is these 4 issues are catastrophic in nature and seem to happen at random with little or no warning. I have my 02 4s, the engine was replaced under warranty in 07 by Porsche, I enjoy the car and drive it like I stole it every chance I get. I also track the car, so do expect a failure sooner or later, just because of the track events, today I am ok with this, I won't like and will complain about it if it happens, but eventually will come to term with it. I do believe any car that see the track frequently will have major failures sone or later. I do feel very sad every time I see a posting pop up here of another low mile street driven car with a catastrophic engine problem, this should not be. A modern automobile engine should not experience total failure with as few miles as we typically see here. Of course for every one failure someone posts here there are 100 running without a problem, but when you have places, like FSI, making a very lucrative business out of M96 failures, and have a year waiting period for a rebuild, one can come to the conclusion that there are quite a few failed engines outhere. When I put all of this together and consider how few M96 engines were built to begin with, and how few miles our cars are typically drive I do question the reliability of them. I wouldn't call them Junk, but they are not a start either.

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This is a good example of what I was talking about. No one is going to "die" due to an M96 failure. An even a catastrophic failure will only be a few thousand dollars more than a "high end" overhaul. It's ironic you mentioned avionics TBO. I was just reading the other day where the all of avionics have completely moved from TBO to RCM ( Reliability Centered Maintenance) except the air cooled engines portion, and that that is rapidly moving toward RCM. RCM is where only non-invasive maintenance is performed , no overhauls is done on a time/hours basis. The studys have confirmed that doing unnecessary overhauls actually reduce the reliability, due to factors such as manufacturing defects, foreign debris intrusion, tolerance stack-up, workmanship, infant mortality rates.Study's have concluded that "running-to-failure" increases reliability , drastically reduces operating costs, increases safety. Overhauls are only done after a condition/failure has occurred. I've been in this business for decades and know this risk of "Infant Mortality " to be real, I have seen it numerous of times and know it in my heart..

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I'm glad you agree that the "feeling" that these engines are "junk" has been perpetuated by repeating bad news when something does fail, and all the common failures get piled on also. It is easier to believe the bad stuff. The term catastrophic failure has a big emotional impact on this community. I see the term catastrophic failure all the time in this forum when it is just a condition that needs an overhaul, like an IMSB that is making metal, or a timing chain that has failed and bent some valves and needs to have an overhaul ect. To me a catastrophic failure is one where the block/case has been busted or a hole punched through the block/case. This usually only happens with very high RPM's and something lets go. The Porsche dealership I worked for was only about 4 miles from Barber Motorsports Park. They have a Porsche Driving School there. I did all the repairs on the fleet of 996's and then the 997's , they did tires and brakes at the track shop, but all maintenance and repairs were done at the dealership. These cars were driven hard every day of their life for years. They were maintained strictly by the book, meaning yearly oil change with Mobil 1 only .( due to having a Mobil 1 sticker on the them, and contract requirements). I begged them to increase the maintenance on them stating the track environment. But they said no, they had talked to Porsche and the requirements by the book would be done, they have a 4 year 50k miles warranty and Porsche would honor it as long as no over-revs were encountered. These cars were cranked let idle until warm while lining them up for the Driving School Students to saddle up, no special warm up ritual. The fleet of about 40 cars that later grew to about 100 cars were driven very hard. I replaced many many burned up clutches ( that the customer/students sometimes had to pay for), but I don't remember replacing an engine, I may have replaced one, but don't remember it., I do remember them holding up very well under years of what I consider abuse.. If you look at 50k as high performance miles and not as family sedan or work truck miles, then 50k miles takes on a whole new meaning, I mean the Daytona 500 is ONLY 500 miles long. I know for a fact these cars are driven harder than any other car on the market, and by people who are less in tune with whats going on inside the engine..

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Agree. I was only pointing out that �junk� is often in the eye of the beholder and depends on experience There are countless folks that never have any issues with these cars and they probably would confirm Porsche�s #1 or #2 spot (depending on how you look at it) of most reliable brands of cars. But for one to have a series of issues, one right after another, they would be fed up and call BS on the rating...same applies to any other brand. Same car, different experience, different labels.

bought my 2000 996 with 35K miles....Have kept up with maintenance, frequent oil changes and also needed clutch....now have 105K miles and LOVE the car...have not done the IMS upgrade......but will next time the trns needs to come out.....but in the meantime its' my daily drive and I drive it hard....a neighboe recently stopped me and said "man you drive that Porsche hard every day.....my reply....Do you have a dog? Yes was the reply. You walk your dog every day, why? Well, came the response, I like my dog and we bond and get our much needed excersize ... Well, I don't have a dog

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Great point. The overall issue with 996s is the total package of hysteria that has accompanied the cars since they came out, and which mainly arose because they were so different from what came before. So issues like IMSB, bore scoring etc. become exaggerated out of proportion to the actual rates of the problems ( which are largely unknown!!!! ) Mr. Raby's videos jump right into the nature of potential problems with 996 engines, without addressing the rates - so the viewer is left to infer the issues are inevitable/universal. (No offense intended to you, Mr. Raby; looks like you do good work!) Yes, these engines have flaws, but with so many high mile examples still on the road, clearly the problems are not universal. Many threads here and elsewhere have postulated the variables involved. I've offered to run an exploratory analysis estimating 996 problem rates using statistical methods we employ in medical research, if someone is willing help me gather data - see another thread by me. That is the key information needed to turn the hysterical hype into a more rational conversation.

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Here, here, too! Porschetech3, I appreciate the rational tone of your posts.

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I really appreciate your efforts. I really like the engine build / cost thread you started complete with part numbers and sources. Things like that our invaluable since Porsche the company is so tight lipped and closed book on everything. That probably contributes to some of the hysteria regarding the M96/7 engines. I'm seriously considering an M97/21 powered Cayman S as my next fun car, because they are so well priced right now and this M96/7 hysteria thing is way overblown. From what I can tell the large IMSB M97s are doing quite well and offer great performance, and the Cayman S is probably the best mid engine sports car I can afford.

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Good info and supports my intuition. Thx

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Keep in mind these were $ 70,000 cars when new.

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Sticker on my 03 C4 was right about 90K.. Yea there is some inherited cost there..

Just drove 8 sessions on my stock engine (no rebuilds), no IMS, no RMS replacements, Tip, 100% stock even down to the rims. Drove in 2nd and 3rd gear the entire length of the track, letting 2nd run to redline and auto-shift up to 3rd every session, clicking down to 2nd under braking when needed, etc. Have a high-temp thermostat and about an 8 month old water pump on it, sat right dead a few clicks right from 180 on the t-stat all weekend and didn't move. No leaks, no fluids, literally not a single issue. On a 16 y/o car with nearly 95k miles. So yeah, pretty ****ty if you ask me. Can't believe Porsche would make something so useless and unreliable!

Had three 964�s, a 993, and two 996�s. Got prob half million miles between them all over 25 years. 996�s are no more or less reliable than the air cooled generations. I can say I had lots of various leaking issues with the older models though. Still drive the 996; it�s by far the best driver.