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YOUR RESEARCHA *new* 120k mile rebuild/race car thread.
Leading reported evidence
Run when tracked
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
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0
Unsuccessful attempts
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Leading evidence: 'Run when tracked' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'failure was actually an oil delivery issue' (1 discussions; 0 report identifying it and 1 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Adjust lash' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Suggestion · Original poster
I would do it myself except I don�t have a crazy press for the gears or any way to adjust lash.
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Suspected cause
It�s likely the failure was actually an oil delivery issue.
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67 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
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Greetings,
My 01 C2 blew up at the track and caught a little bit of fire (see for sale thread for 996 parts). I'll be going full race car with it. It was 100% street car, though not my daily.
The only mods:
18x8/18x10 wheels with 285/245 go fast tires.
Stoptech pads (dont remember compound, but race)
Tarrett front camber plate (-1.5 front, -2.5 in the rear)
vinyl wrap for the company
It's 80% gutted now and the motor is out. Would like to document and add questions about the build/rebuild.
First: Is there anything I can save from the bad head? Is one known good working head with cams, etc. worth anything?
Second, the car is going standalone ECU. What emissions stuff can I rip out? The butterfly that connects the two intake manifolds? air injection doodad that looks like a black silo under the intake manifold?
Here's the motor out of the car with all accessories.
new home. top motor accessories off. You can see the fire damage to the starboard side wiring harness. It nuked that side intake manifold and the con rod punched through the block The piece of block material then put a hole in the rear resonator (the one with the butterfly valve). There were black plastic bits in the intake runners.
trans off. clutch looked good. Used but good. Not down to rivets yet. More disassembly. RMS looked gunky, and the IMS was dry as a bone. So that's good?
Let's see what Santa brought us. Yes, that's TWO wrist pins in one cylinder.
Of note, there is some bore scoring. Cannot tell by touch. Appears to be very light. Good thing I caught it early...
Mike: I think either catastrophic cylinder failure (not super likely) or failed rod bolt. Cylinder #5 rod cap was found separated and outside of the motor.
Here's the thing, it blew a few seconds after a 2-3 shift on the straight. The ignition was cut and the clutch pedal down within 5 seconds. Then it caught fire.
I put maybe 800 track miles on the 120k mile chassis, and THIS is how it repays me?
the rod bolts will be the least of it.
the plan is to find a 3.6, make it 4.0. Nickies, pistons and some medium duty rods. It�s not going crazy power wise.
standalone ecu, able to run e85. Detuned to be 10lbs/hp so I can be GTS3/ST3/TT3. Once I improve as a driver I�ll make the switch to GTS2/ST2/TT2 and open the tune up to try for 8lbs/hp.
With trans out it will get beefy synchros (they are fine right now) and a guard lsd. I would do it myself except I don�t have a crazy press for the gears or any way to adjust lash.
My cage guy can do FIA approved stuff, so I need to find out how to get it cert�d.
downside: Gone are the nannies that keep the pointy end forward, and ABS.
any pointers on emissions equipment I can scrap?
Fair enough, and I agree, but rod bolts don�t fail often on these engines unless there�s oil starvation or overrevs. At least that�s what I�ve read. Is there any evidence of temperature or oil pressure issues on the rod journal bearing surfaces?
Here's the oil report. I put 5000 miles on liquimoly stuff before it blew.
At the time there were no oil pressure changes to note. This was on the first hot lap after an easy "out" lap. Will have more info when I blow open the clam shells.
query: the tube connecting the intake manifolds that has the butterfly (front of car side) appears to be vacuum actuated. For "racekar" should the two sides be connected by a tube "open", or capped "closed".
You seem very focused on the resonance tube. It is helpful at various rpm ranges and it hardly ever fails, so not sure why you want to delete it.
SAI on the other hand, you can definitely ditch.
sure.
1) when the motor goes in, I'm not going to be able to/choose not to mess with it.
2) it's getting a standalone ECU and the butterfly, while vacuum operated, is controlled by an electrical connection IIRC on the rear portion of the drivers side intake manifold. an electrical connection I would rather not "tune" for.
Essentially, the butterfly will be useless when disconnected and in the "open" position. Is this going to be in the best position for high RPM use, or would the "closed" position.
Additional query: I assume I can scrap this bit? Wouldn't the oil separator act as crankcase breathing, or no?
That oil analysis seems clear to me what happened.
Curious why you want to go stand-alone ECU? Would it not be more prudent to gradually work your way to that level? In other words, start with a well built engine that gets broken-in gradually. Then, make incremental steps to up the performance. Just interested to get your philosophy on this build.
Pretty easy.
I've got the 3.4, with the Variocam 1. Why on earth find another 3.4 when the (slightly) big brother is roughly the same price.
I'm looking at 3.8-4.0 and that's Variocam 2. My ECU won't play nice.
Plus injector sizing and different fuel maps and ethanol tuning (and every ratio in between)
The body harness connectors are fried. Porsche quoted $7800 to make a new one as there are none in the supply chain. Even if I Frankenstein and splice an eBay body harness into my old one, I'm asking for wiring issues. I would be cutting up the harness anyway to remove all the unneeded weight.
For what I would spend on wiring my car to stock, I can have a standalone with cool-guy dash and all the additional inputs.
The wiring is a big deal. I didn't comprehend the need for a whole new harness. You'll still have plenty to sort out with all the other sensors and actuators. What about cam timing? Does the stand-alone adjust that?
Shouldn’t be that big of a deal, all things considered. I’m new to ripping up Porsches however I’ve done standalone’s in my youth/college. I have an eBay engine harness already waiting in the wings to rip up for the project. There is definitely adjustability present for solenoids, etc.
Lead and copper, right? Bearings? What about the high silicon?
It�s why I mentioned that rod bolts on this engine aren�t so weak that a bolt failure is common. If the rod is oil starved, then that�s different.
Exactly. Rod and crank bearings are made primarily of copper and lead. There are no other parts with lead. Copper is rare in other parts, but if the two are found in high quantities, that's a really good clue.
Silicon may be from the bores or dirty oil. The text does suggest that this may be from sealant. That would be silicone. Not sure how they can justify that statement.
Yes - bearing failure will result in rod failure. All sorts of things can get taken out when that happens.
I see. My understanding is that its closed until around 2300rpm, opens until about 5500rpm, and then is closed again. So I'd venture a guess that for track use you'd want it closed. This is just going off memory though, so I'd double check.
You can scrap the junk in that diagram. Thats the SAI unit and its totally pointless on a track car.
From the picture of the con rod journal, looks to me that the bearing ran out of oil pressure and that's what caused the rod to break, not a failed bolt.
Stock non-dry sump motors just don�t have the proper oiling system to handle track days. Granted, some folks track their stock cars, and they don�t have issues that they know of, but this is risky.
If you want to track on the new motor, I would upgrade the oiling system. It�s likely the failure was actually an oil delivery issue. Unless you were watching the oil pressure gauge in the turns, the engine blowing on the straight was probably 5-10 mins after most of the damage had already occurred. It could also have been heat - oil too hot - but there�s not much you can do with stock engines to report and record this info on a base 996.
Updates. Amazingly, this is the only pic that made it.
What I found in disassembly:
Main bearings didn't have any crazy wear patterns to speak of.
Rod bearings showed some interesting wear patterns. I have 3 uppers and 3 lowers. One rod and bearings completely destroyed, and two with ****ed up bolts that prevent removal.
BTW, the hard scratches on the bearing surfaces are owner induced when I threw them all in a bag. No crazy scoring coming from the motor.
No discoloration re: heat. Nor was there discoloration on the crank. #5 did beat up the crank pretty badly, so nothing can be said of the bearing surfaces *or* the journals.
Observe:
Those rod bearings show extreme wear. It's no wonder there was so much lead and copper in the UOA. They're all worn clear down to the base metal. Once the bearing material starts to wear away, the deterioration accelerates rapidly. It's no wonder the other side seized up.
Good news/bad news. The cost of repair is well over the agreed upon value. So now the question is... what's the scrap value of the car for buyback? My ins. guy is still out pondering it.
Salvage value is usually 20% of the value of the car.
I've bought back two cars from the insurance company, but it was a while ago. I was able to negotiate the buy-back price. Worth a shot.
Oil supply & quality often lead to this end result, when the stock rod bolts let go well before a ARP bolt would, you see what the result is.OE connecting rods need all the help they can get!
My insurance doesn't cover mechanical failures unless I hit something that causes the part to fail. Most insurances only cover collisions/fire/theft etc. and not a blown up engine. Maybe he has some sort or a special coverage?
Thanks for teaching me something today Scott! I didn't realize the difference between silicon and silicone before.
I can tell you that i have had spikes in my BS silicon readings post dropping sump, so there is a correlation. It would seem that silicone has silicon within it and may be the reason for these results, at least according to BTOG and Blackstone.
The scrap value through a salvage auction is usually less than what someone on Craigslist would pay for. So if the car is worth let's say $4K on the open market, then the action price is probably around $3K or less. Insurance companies use action values to estimate the value of the car so keep than in mind when the insurance adjuster makes you a buy back offer. AND don;t help him with pricing, he needs to come up with that on his own. You can easily work against yourself by helping him do his job.
The reason it upsets me is that my youngest Son who died last year, blew his 3.2 engine in his 2002 Boxster earlier last year at Little Talladega with the same failure, and it was fully insured. The car hasn't been touched since the failure..
So yes, someone else's life events
can
upset me.
Just getting plugged back in.
Re: insurance. Let me be clear, I did not make a claim against the motor or its replacement. The claim was comprehensive for the fire. I explained to my insurer where I was and what I was doing. The damage estimate was paint and body, electrical, and rubber hoses, etc. The main harness was toasty and needed R&R. That is expensive, not to mention there is no body harness in the Porsche system. They said they would build one for me for the low low price of $7800 WITH PCA discount. Those things plus labor add up quickly towards the agreed value.
To reiterate: no matter what happens with insurance, the motor is, was, and always will be on my dime.
That makes a LOT more sense.
Hopefully the insurance money will help towards the engine build too.
Perhaps doing some of the fire damage repairs yourself will help cut some costs.
Good Luck!
Exactly. That's why the car has tipped over into full race car build. Whatever money comes from insurance could return the car to 100% factory fresh... or it can significantly cut the expense that comes with outfitting a race car. If all the wiring is being replaced why NOT go standalone (read: E85 or better)? I'll be in there anyway if I am replacing the body harness...
The motor... that's a different story. I was even looking into LS or EJ swaps because of how crazy expensive these motors can be.
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