Car records from Calif Porsche dealership? ANYONE HAVE ANY CONNECTIONS?

I want to post this separately from a similar recent post in order to get some visibility and suggestions, as there are probably several of you who know the players. I bought a 2002 996 (with 160K miles) from the original owner who had the car for 11 years. ALL SERVICE WAS DONE ON TIME, RIGIDLY FOLLOWING PORSCHE'S GUIDELINES (who does that?? and for all 160K miles of the car's life??!!). FURTHERMORE, ALL THE WORK WAS DONE ONLY BY ONE SPECIFIC PORSCHE DEALERSHIP IN CALIFORNIA! In fact, it was the same service manager every time, and in fact, MOSTLY done by one specific mechanic in the service department. (The original owner did NONE of the work on the car, ever.) What a treasure trove of information this would be! The dealership purportedly is the largest Porsche dealership in the country, and is located in California -- maybe some of you are familiar with them (I will have to look up their name)? It deals with high-end, wealthy, customers. I called that dealership (I live in Virginia) and asked for the complete set of records. The service manager said, yes, he was very familiar with the original owner, and yes, he had all the records, but NO he could not release them without the original owner's permission. So, I got the original owner to call the service manager (who he knew very well) to give his permission. Easy peasy, right? Nope. When I called the service manager, his whole tone distinctly changed, and he got an air of arrogance and distance (I'm a Behavioralist, and this guy was an amateur.) He IGNORED the request, and I still do not have these valuable records! Due to his reactions, I strongly suspect that the service manager may have engaged in unscrupulous "service" over the years, as well as in convincing the owner that his car was irreparably broken, and he does not want their records closely analyzed! The main reason for my suspicion is that the original owner was told that his car was kaput/inoperable, and that the cost to fix it would be too much, and that he should buy a new car -- and they promptly sold him a new Porsche. They paid him cash for his "kaput" car, and it went to auction, where, in a round-about way, I got the car and then hunted the owner down. Let me tell you, the car drives perfectly. There is NO evidence of ANYTHING being done to the car's engine: no heads removed; no engine pulled, NUTHIN'! There are no tell-tale signs that anything was done to the engine -- no new gasket edges; no tooling marks; no parts that are cleaner than others. The dirt patterns on the engine are original and unbroken -- something one would expect with an engine that has not been tinkered with. I suspect that the dealership took the mechanically ignorant owner for a ride (remember, they then sold him a brand new Porsche), turned around and maybe fixed the SAI (which most likely caused the sudden dense smoke and the owner's alarm), and sold the car at a great profit. Hence, they do not want someone like me looking carefully at their maintenance records on the car. The dealership deals with very high-end customers. They would be apprehensive that I would contact the original owner to tell him of my findings, and thus stain their reputation. I sure would like that volume of service records from that dealership. Maybe one of you on Pelican have an "in" with that Cali dealership or have an opinion about them?? Any suggestions?

Well, ignoring the conspiracy theory, the issue is probably just one of privacy concerns. The dealer is just not set up to, doesn't have the procedures in place, to get a legally binding authorization from a customer to release his private information to you. So the dealer errs on the side of caution and just doesn't release this even with the previous owner's permission, even possibly his written permission. Frankly, I would not want a dealer to release this info of mine to a buyer. While I wouldn't mind the dealer sharing what services the car had and when and at what miles, beyond that I would expect the dealer to respect my privacy. You have the car. It passed your PPI and used car check out. It has full service history even though you do not have copies of this. What value you could obtain from the service history at this late stage -- after you have bought the car -- is not clear to me. But if you want to know the history of the car, call the dealer and ask if someone will read off what was done and when and at what miles. Jot this info down and you will have at least some record of what was done and when and at what miles. This is what I did when I was shopping -- note *before* I bought the car -- a 2003 Turbo. Using CarFax I found where the car spent its time (in the SF/Oakland/San Jose area) so I called every Porsche dealer and found several who had worked on the car at one time or another. From the person I talked to I found out what the car had had done and when and at what miles so afterwards I had a good idea of what kind of servicing the car had received (good) and thus was more comfortable buying the car.

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Macster: thanks for your responses. Your defensive posture signals that you're a dealer or in the business, right? I cannot understand this type of privacy. Can you give me an example of what could be revealed that might violate your privacy? Except for something embarrassing, such as finding out that you actually did NOT have the vehicle serviced so regularly -- or a revelation of other deception -- I fail to see any need for evoke privacy as a defense. This ain't HIPAA and medical records. Only if someone were wanting to keep something hidden could I see a need for privacy when it comes to a vehicle. I am not paranoid about conspiracies, but I do immediately cue in on human behavior. As you should know, a PPI is a very limited evaluation -- no matter how much time was spent on it, nor how much you paid to the inspector. Ask one, and they will immediately tell you the limitations of their inspections. Off the top of my head, without even pausing to go down a checklist, I can think of several things I would want to know: 1) What was the final diagnosis on the car when it was last brought in? 2) when were diff and trans fluids changed? 3) What other corrections/ repairs/ replacements were done over the course of its life -- that might clue me in to a repetition of a troublesome part, or point me to look for deeper causes --- JUST AS A COUPLE EXAMPLES. I did ask for the service manager to read off the list: "Far too extensive -- you realize this is 11 years of maintenance..." Lastly, a complete dealer service record is probably much more complete and legitimate than records that might or might not have been kept by previous owner/s. Have you not ever read ads of older cars that state "full records since purchase", which definitely make the car more valuable.

can the PO ask the dealer directly for copies of the records for his own use? then you get the records from him

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Macster: thanks for your responses. Your defensive posture signals that you're a dealer or in the business, right? I cannot understand this type of privacy. Can you give me an example of what could be revealed that might violate your privacy? Except for something embarrassing, such as finding out that you actually did NOT have the vehicle serviced so regularly, or a revelation of other deception, I fail to see any need to evoke privacy as a defense. This ain't HIPAA and medical records. Only if someone were wanting to keep something hidden could I see a need for privacy when it comes to a vehicle. I am not paranoid about conspiracies, but I do immediately cue in on human behavior. As you should know, a PPI is a very limited evaluation -- no matter how much time was spent on it, nor how much you paid to the inspector. Ask one, and they will immediately tell you the limitations of their inspections. Off the top of my head, without even pausing to go down a checklist, I can think of several things I would want to know: 1) What was the final diagnosis on the car when it was last brought in? 2) when were diff and trans fluids changed? 3) What other corrections/ repairs/ replacements were done over the course of its life -- that might clue me in to a repetition of a troublesome part, or point me to look for deeper causes --- JUST AS A COUPLE EXAMPLES. I did ask for the service manager to read off the list. His reply: "Far too extensive -- you realize this is 11 years of maintenance...." Lastly, a complete dealer service record is probably much more complete and legitimate than records that might or might not have been kept by previous owner/s. There are extremely few DIYers who keep meticulous records. Have you not ever read ads of older cars that state "full records since purchase", which definitely make the car more valuable.

Sorry for the double post. Don't know how to delete one of them. KROMDOM -- yes, I asked the PO if he could get them from the service manager for me. He asked him, and the SM said he'd have to check and see if he could print them off. PO never got them. I called the PO several times, and he said that he suspected that the SM was probably not going to ever get around to getting them. "You know, they are the busiest Porsche dealership in the country..."

(I'm a Behavioralist, and this guy was an amateur.)

I tried to get records from the dealership where my car was serviced and I faced the same thing. I ended up sitting down with a service adviser and she went through list and the only thing that popped out to me was a alternator replacement which does not indicate abuse. The rest was routine stuff. I wish I could have gotten printouts but the dealer took the privacy stance. Sucks to be the post-first owner but then again my car sold for $95K new and I bought for mid $20s. I think it's an OK trade off. As far as what has been done and what's due, I just made a list of things that should be done whether they were in-fact done or not and I go through them slowly but methodically. I'd hope that the next owner will appreciate how I have maintained it irrespective of how it was maintained over 5 years ago.

Defensive? Not exactly. But in this case I think the dealer is behaving as it is for understandable reasons. I'm not a dealer nor even in the business. However, I like to believe that I have a good layman's grasp of some of the issues dealers have to face. Guarding the privacy of its customers is one of those. Well, my name and address and phone number, phone numbers are on the work invoices. The cars I own, their license plate numbers, their VINs are on the work invoices. If I chose to sell the car privately then some of this info would be made available to the buyer. This is decision I make when talking to a prospective buyer. But if I trade in a car, or sell it by auction, I expect a reasonable amount of privacy. I do not want all my personal info I listed above exposed to just anyone and everyone. One reason for trading in a car or selling it by auction is the desire to remain anonymous, not because I have something to hide but just because the less info I divulge the less likely this info will be used in ways that may not be in my best interest. I can't speak for anyone else, but I would never make a claim about any car of mine its history or servicing or condition that I couldn't back up with the paperwork or by having the person call the dealer in question and getting the info -- stripped of any of my personal info -- straight from the dealer. California is I believe at the forefront of personal privacy guarding and no business wants to attract the legal attention of a state agency or an attorney working for person who believes he has had his privacy violated against the laws/rules/regulations (sometimes vaguely worded or written or worse yet inconsistently applied) that makes compliance difficult unless one just clams up. I hate to mention this but the time to learn about the car was *before* you bought it. If the info you list is that important to you you should have made getting this info a pre-condition to your buying the car. As I mentioned in another post there is more than one way to get this info. Rather than just asking the dealer print out and mail you a complete copy of all the car's service records, which can represent no little amount of work on the dealer's part and for a car it may not have any fiduciary interest in (IOWs a car it is not selling) you could have just asked if someone at the dealer would run down the list of services and give you what, when and miles. Now I note you tried this way and were unsuccessful. But I have more to say on this below. My general advice on buying a used car is for the buyer to do his own PPI, so to speak, and then afterwards have a pro do a PPI. If one is not able to do this himself, then he has to rely more upon the pro PPI, which admittedly does possibly have some limits. This is the downside of buying a car long distance. My buying advice is to shop globally but buy locally, but of course, some chose to not do this and for understandable reasons. I can understand the service manager's response. I would have hoped for a different one but often times these people are loaded with work. One approach is to recognize the time this requires and offer to pay say 30 minutes of labor at the shop's rate for this info. I mean my local dealer charges $150/hour and to me $75 is a small price to pay to get detailed service info about a car that I was pretty sure I was going to buy. Even if the SM would have asked for 1 hour's labor, that's a small price to pay for such an extensive service history and treasure trove of info about the car.

Change all fluids..boom, done. Inspect the wear items (pads, tires, rotors, etc.) and schedule them for maintenance/replacement if and when needed. Then enjoy the car! You bought a used car with 160,000 miles on it. What did you expect? My two cents.....

When I committed fraud selling a car I bribed a dealer service writer to do exactly what was listed in the OP. Just saying....

I've been through this ordeal myself with many different marques of cars, not exclusive to Porsche. Most, if not, all dealers, will unlikely provide you with the information you are looking for on the sole basis of privacy concerns. When in doubt, pony up for a thorough PPI, compression and leakdown test and all.

Interesting. It depends on the dealership I guess. When we were buying our Cayenne S few years ago, I called up the dealership in FL, who initially tried to sell it as a CPO but then few months later, it got auctioned off. I told them that I saw that the car was serviced at their dealership recently and if they were willing to fax me the service records. Within 5 minutes, I got all the maintenance history (20-30 pages) including all the work they did to get it certified as CPO. I got a PPI done and bought the vehicle. As the vehicle was still under Porsche warranty, after I got the vehicle delivered, I took it over to the local dealership to got it completed checked out (under warranty). Can the PO go to another dealer and get the records? Or are they not available across dealerships?

I bought my car used from a non-Porsche dealer. The carfax indicated that The Car Gallery had serviced the car for the second owner. I met with the service manager and he gave me a print out of all they work they did on the car. It did not involve any information about the owner, just the work the dealership performed. I have since used the dealership for work I have wanted done.

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That print out that you got(info minus owner info) is all I wanted, and I explained this to the service manager. Believe me, I was on the phone with him for more than one sentence. Deleting personal info is a stroke of a keyboard. What kind of info are you getting from CarFax??!! I have ordered several dozens of CF's in the past 2-3 years, and the info is limited to state inspections/registrations, title changes, and accidents/insurance claims. How do you see oil changes and other non-claim-related work done on a car?? For those of you who are blowing off the importance of this info... Yes, I ALWAYS do complete fluid/brake changes, etc., regardless of what the PO might have said. IT'S THE WRITTEN RECORDS FROM THE DEALER IN THE CASE OF THIS CAR THAT HAS OVER 11 YEARS OF OFFICIAL DATA, THAT I WANT. It's a rare thing to have. Also FYI, the car looks and runs like brand new; compression and leakdown were outstanding.

Get an attorney, threaten to sue. It's the American way....

I was just surfing autotrader recently for used cars and noticed that some ads listed with "free CARFAX" did list any/all work done @ dealerships and other shops. Might be worth buying a CARFAX account so you can run the VIN. Best of luck.

as I mentioned in the other post, ask the dealer to fill out and stamp a service book That will give you most of the records Maybe there is already one in the car that is filled in

You need to ask them to accept your money for their time. It worked for me but yet every dealer is different. And it is probably not a keystroke to remove the name etc, mine came as photocopies with the info blacked out with a marker. If the service manager isn't willing to generate revenue for his dealership, kick it up a notch, there are at least two levels above him. I have not yet met a car dealership that is hesitant to bill for anything. It might be easier to offer the previous owner the money to get his own service records but if he's going to the dealer for all service for 11 years, he probably does not need the money....

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If the records didn't have the personal info of the previous owner redacted that's a pretty surprising violation of the previous owner's personal privacy. Course, I guess the Florida dealer knows what it is doing, what is can dare I say get away with. But if I lived in Florida I'd be a bit less than happy to know a dealer could share my info in such a way. What I believe is the case, at least has been the case, is there is no link between the dealers and Porsche in such a way to create a database of vehicle servicing that can be then accessed by either than dealer or another dealer. IOWs, a dealer across the country, or right next door, to the dealer that did the work couldn't look up service records for a car for services done at any other dealer. Now, I am pretty sure Porsche has a database of what was done when to a car, along with about a ton of vehicle telemetry, at least for any warranty work. But this info is not available to even the dealers, except perhaps on a limited basis when a car is CPO'd. I put this qualifier out based on when I was shopping my Turbo I got the CPO paperwork and this included some info about some warranty work -- mainly dealing with some rattles in the sun roof hardware. Beyond this I think Porsche would run afoul of privacy laws in the various regions where it did business.

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You believe that the dealership deliberately misled the customer into thinking his car was irreparably damaged, but that they will also have meticulous records of this deception that counter what the owner was told? While I do not claim to be a Behavioralist of any degree, documenting your own fraud would be stupid. I suspect that there is some other explanation for the service writer's reluctance to produce the records, but I wouldn't be able to divine his motivations... I'm pretty sure a failed secondary air injection pump did not cause a cloud of smoke and result in the owner's fleecing. I think you mean AOS - but ultimately, it's still the weirdest theory I've ever heard. If the car was in great shape, why would the dealer have auctioned it? If I'm going to rip someone off, I'd certainly try to get better than auction pricing out of the deal. There's a huge difference between "it's impossible to fix your car" and "it may cost more to fix your car than it's worth." In the case of a 996 with 160,000 miles, with a seemingly serious but undiagnosed engine issue, it would take almost no time to exceed the car's worth, especially when you're charging dealer rates to diagnose and fix stuff. Is it possible that the dealership encouraged Mr. Big to just buy a new car than to sink $5K or more of repairs into his $8K (160K miles + doesn't run = worthless) Porsche? I can imagine this scenario, and it doesn't even require imagining that the dealership is dirty. Good luck with your quest...