Nokia vs Haes subwoofer

Hello Everyone; First time post, recent 1999 996 Cab buyer. It's got the "hifi" stereo: CDR-220, no CD changer, speakers in the doors, Nokia speakers throughout. I've been told that the Haes subwoofer door speaker is a larger air-volume than the Nokia subwoofer door speaker (both are 5.25" speakers) and will do a little better job of providing bass if I swap it out. Has anyone here had experience with this? Did you notice a difference? Is the Haes 5.25" driver better than the Nokia 5.25" driver? Did the switch require any modification? Did you upgrade the driver? If so what did you use? I'd like to keep the stock look of the car, don't want to take up precious interior space with additional subwoofer enclosures, and want to get the best bang for the buck. Trying to do this on a tight budget. Tell me your experience with the door speaker in the 996. Thanks

I have heard both - not sure which ones have the larger enclosure. They both sound meh. I didnt notice the difference. One of them has a larger enclosure. It may just be the enclosure that makes any difference. The only way you can improve on your sound (in my opinion) is to change some components. I took out the enclosure in the door and swapped speakers with a Pioneer 5.25. (just had to do a bit of dremeling to get it to fit back in the enclosure but there are speakers that can just drop in). I also changed all my speakers, but this required me changing the amp. You can't just swap them out unless you get the same impedance and type. That door speaker is crossed-over at the amp for low frequencies so just putting another speaker in wont help unless you change your amp too. My advice is be happy with the stock setup or change everything out. New speakers, new amp, new head unit. If you're on a budget it's not hard to do yourself. You can use most of the wires up front from the amp. It's just the cost of quality components.

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Don't waste your time with stock. Even speakers under $100 will be infinitely better.

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Good to know. At least swapping out those speakers looks straight forward. Nothing like the headache of trying to swap the Nokia speakers of the dash and rear with their 3 point anchors. REALLY? NON STANDARD???

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Yeah I feel ya. Some genius company decided to come out with custom speaker brackets just for that case. FWIW, I'm running stock door "subs" with the larger enclosure but through dsp processing, they don't sound that bad tuned electronically.

I found the front and rears not too bad.. used 4" 3 ways in the rear. Just hacked off the original cone, then clamped the 4" back in between the bracket and soldered the speaker wires to the new speaker. The fronts I used components so I had to epoxy the tweeter to where the old one was. Sound is great now, and I have bluetooth with the new deck.

The Haes is no powerhouse sub either, so it's definitely not worth it change what you have. The popular option for door speaker replacement is this Tang sub ( http://www.parts-express.com/tang-ba...m_campaign=pla ). This is reported to be much better than the Haes. It fits without any external modifications but does require drilling of the back enclosure to make room for the magnet because it is a deeper speaker. The Tangs are 4 ohms, versus 2 ohms for the originals, but by all accounts I've seen they still work fine in the 996 with the stock amp. There are several RL threads on installing them. I just received the Tang subs I ordered, but it will probably be a while before I can find time to install them. The popular alternative for the dash/rear speakers are the Alpine SPS-410's ( http://www.crutchfield.com/p_500SPS4...10.html?tp=102 ). I did replace the Haes originals with 4 Alpines and the sound is significantly improved. There are also many RL threads on installing the Alpines.

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It's not really as bad as it looks to replace the stock speakers. This video shows the process and it really is straightforward even though it looks a bit scary: Porsche Boxster Speaker Replacement - YouTube You'll probably get a bigger sound advantage from replacing the dash/rear speakers since the door speakers are only subs (replacing the door speakers will improve bass, but everything else will sound the same).

I should have documented my install but here are my observations.. Replaced the rears with 3-way kenwood 4" speakers. Pretty simple but you obviously destroy the stock ones. I simply unscrewed the 3 screws holding in the mid and snipped out the basket and housing (like in video above). I then clamped the new speaker in its spot still using the other half of the stock basket and soldered the +/-. Ignored the stock tweeter just left it. Fronts were a bit tricky.. I used Helix Match 4" components. Did the same thing, but I had to remove the stock tweeter, take the plastic case off the new one and epoxy it to the stock location on a bit of an angle to allow for clearance. There was plenty of room in the dash to stick the supplied crossovers (velcro to dash parts). The door speakers I chose to use kenwood 5 1/4s. Easy to remove stock enclosures. Removed lower screws on door panel, unsnapped the bottom only, reached up while lying on the ground and wiggled the enclosure out. Disconected speaker wire plug and thats all. I DID have to dremel about 1/8th of the rim off for the larger speakers to fit. Solder connections and reinstall. The tricky part was the amp and head unit. I can get into the wiring if you want but how's this for a solution: Leave the doors. If you change them you need to match ohms or change the amp or use signal processing. Change fronts and rears. - If you can afford components for the fronts do it. Add a powered sub (I used an 8" bazooka tube it sits right behind the seats nice and snug you dont notice it from inside the car). Theres also a few other options that fit behind the seats. Leave everything else alone. Powered sub goes to rear speaker leads, grounded under sound material in rear and powered to deck or battery. Its a one hour install for the sub and about 2-3 hours for the speakers if you take your time and have a few beers.

Was it obvious which lug was + and which was - when sacrificing the stock Nokias as a speaker clamp/connector? I intend on swapping out the front and rear speakers but leaving the head unit and amp. I don't want to spend the money for Focals. It speakers I hear mentioned for the front and back are the Alpines, JL Audio, and Hertz. All are between $60-$110 a pair. Has anyone heard more than one of them and able to describe the differences?

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I did this mod, both the Tangs and the Alpines, and am very happy with the sound. I have a convertible so it needs to get fairly loud (without distortion). Really was not hard to do.

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It was pretty obvious, not sure if it was printed on the speaker/bracket or I just looked at the wiring diagram. The wiring diagram is perfect, it has all the wires, colors, for speakers/head unit/amp/etc. - I heard a set of focal beside another set and they sound good. But this was in a store and they were mounted to plates. They dont make many 4" component speakers any more. I got the Helix Match components. They sound good. I think a bit better than a really good 4" 2-way speaker. I don't think it's that much of a difference that could warrant (me spending the money) the Focal speakers (im sure theyre awesome in a great setup and if money was no object i'd buy them). The tweeter is so close to the mid that there isn't that great seperation of sounds. Usually you see a tweeter pointed at you from the door or dash and it's away from the mid. Just my opinion of course. Before I mounted the components I tried a really good set of kenwoods and pioneer 4". They all sounded pretty close, but I went with the components. I *think* the highs sound a little brighter and the mid is a little more precise. Either way once you sacrifice the clips and figure the wires its not difficult to install them. The caveat being the depth of the magnet on your new pair. The kenwood 3-ways I put in the rear barely fit depth wise. Any bigger of a magnet and I may have had issues. I googled it and a few people have listed the max depths - I think in a thread here if you search.

I made a template for the dash speakers fro replacement without destroying the factory ones. http://986forum.com/forums/diy-proje...-speakers.html

Hey thats a great idea. I just snipped mine to look like those. If I saw that thread first I might have taken the time to make those.

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This is a good diy. For those that don't wanna hassle, this store has quite a few speaker options for the Porsche, including dash speaker adapters. http://cai-store.com/products/996-sp...t-also-boxster

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If you order the speakers from Crutchfield, they come with custom speaker cables that plug into the existing Porsche connector and this eliminates any ambiguity on polarity. Speakers tend to be cheaper on Amazon, but it was worth it to me to pay more on Crutchfield to get the included Porsche adaptors. Getting the polarity right without the custom cables is not rocket science though, you can just look at how the originals are connected now and do the same with the new speakers.

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For those who have done the tang band and alpine setup, did you use the stock amp? If not which amp did you use? Thanks

I'm in the process of installing the Tangs right now following the excellent instructions from here: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...-speakers.html It takes about 2 hours for the first side and about an 1 hour for the second side. I'm waiting overnight for the RTV (sealant) to cure before I put them back and try it out. For the most part, it's straightforward, but I was confused a bit about where to Dremel for the new subwoofer to fit all the way into the enclosure because the picture in the instructions isn't that clear. It turns out you just need to make the large 5 1/4" speaker hole on the enclosure larger -- not difficult to do with a Dremel. I recommend picking up a plastic pry tool for removing the door panel if you don't have one -- makes the job much easier and helps make sure you don't damage the leather when removing trim. I used this cheap set and it works well: Amazon.com : Car Radio Stereo, Dash Removal Install Tools (Set of 12) : Electronics Amazon.com : Car Radio Stereo, Dash Removal Install Tools (Set of 12) : Electronics Another thing I noticed while I had it apart is that the enclosure is branded "Nokia" while the original speakers are branded "Haes".

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From the threads I've read, the vast majority are using the stock amp (Haes 6 x 40 with the Hifi option). The original subs are 2ohms - likely because they wanted to get more output out of the relatively modest 40 watt sub channels. I measured my Tangs and originals with an ohmmeter. The originals measure 2.0 ohms and the Tangs measure 3.6. Amplifiers are much happier driving higher impedance speakers, so the Tangs will be easier on the amp. In theory, the Tangs will be quieter because they are 3.6 ohms and the system is designed for 2ohm, but everyone claims that they work fine anyway (maybe the Tangs have better efficiency or maybe they turned up bass to compensate).

I'm curious what other speakers have been used successfully in the doors. The Tang Band subs require cutting a hole in the back of the enclosure (not ideal). The Tang Band's are 4 ohm (or measure 3.4 ohm) and the amp wants to see 2 ohm. My understanding is that this mismatch won't harm the amp but the volume will be reduced by 3/8 or 1/2. The Tang Band measured sensitivity is 82 db. All other things equal, the higher the sensitivity the better. Their frequency response codes down to 45hz The Tang Band sub is $59.05 I talked with a tech support person at Crutchfield and came up with two other options: 1) Kenwood KFC-1365S 5-1/4" 2-Way Speakers - They are $39.99 a pair (CHEAP!), The are 4 ohm (same as the Tang Band). and have a sensitivity rating of 91 db. (Much better than the Tang Band). They are pretty shallow (I saw a pic but couldn't find the depth specs) so should mount without modifying the enclosure. The frequency response goes down to 40hz. 2) Infinity Kappa 52.11i 5-1/4" 2-Way Speakers - They are $135.99 a pair (a touch more than the Tang Band). They are 2 ohm (What the amp wants to see), and a sensitivity rating of 94 db (best yet!). Based on specs alone these should be the best. They have a mounting depth of 2 3/8" so they should mount without modification to the enclosure. But the one possible problem is that they have a tweeter that sticks up towards the inside of the car. I'm not sure if this will touch the speaker grill. The frequency response goes down to 55hz. This isn't as good as either the Tang Band or Kenwoods. It's possible that the lowest bass notes and thump of a kick drum will be rolled off. I don't see any problem with using a coaxial speaker instead of a straight subwoofer here. The signal coming from the amp is already crossed-over and so there isn't any high end for the tweeter to reproduce. It will just be inactive. There is no harm in that. Right?

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Warning: Strongly Worded Opinion Ahead: Honestly, I would not in a million years consider replacing the existing woofer with anything but a dedicated subwoofer. The only way to get a lot of bass is to move a lot of air, and the only way to move a lot of air with a small speaker is to have a lot of excursion. The woofer in a full-range speaker needs to have flat response from the lowest frequencies all the way up to 2khz to 5khz (depending on the tweeter) and it is impossible that to design a driver that will handle the lowest ranges and move that much air like a true sub while also simultaneously reproducing mid and higher frequencies accurately. The Tang, and any dedicated subwoofer driver, has a lot more excursion than any full-range speaker because the design is optimized for the lowest frequencies and it doesn't need to have any compromises to allow it to also able to handle midrange frequencies. Also, the frequency response spec alone is not really very meaningful unless both speakers being compared were tested using the exact same method. Frequency response between two models of the same brand mean something because they are both measured the same way, but across brands they mean a lot less. The Tang appears to have only slightly lower response than the full-range, but any real sub driver will produce A LOT more volume with more accuracy and much less breakup at low frequencies than a full-range speaker. Finally, the original system is designed for a subwoofer speaker in the door, so it might sound weird to have a full-range speaker there. It's quite possible that the stock system is filtering out high frequencies to the door speaker amp channels, so maybe the full-range frequency response won't be an issue, but I feel certain that none of the full range woofers will have anything close to the bass of a dedicated sub. Unlike the dash and rear speakers, which are very cheaply made with paper cones, the stock door speakers appear to be of pretty good quality. I expect the Tang to bury them in performance when I connect them up later today, but the stock driver appears to be a dedicated low frequency speaker so even it may outperform aftermarket full-range speakers for bass. Sorry for wording it so strongly, but I can't mince words on this one. Hopefully others will chime in with their opinions, and maybe they won't be such a jerk about it

PeterP, you weren't a jerk at all. I appreciate your response. I'm looking forward to hearing how your system sounds when you have it hooked up. I agree that specs between brands/sources are almost worthless but no one is going to have everything so we do the best we can. In this case that means hearing from others (like you) that have gone before, tried something, and reported back with the results. Have you used the Alpine SPS-410s in the front and back? Any problems with the depth or size of the magnet?

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I also agree with this and the reason why I didn't bother upgrading it. The DSP I'm running in my Eclipse HU does a good job to bring the most bass out of it. I don't enter any sound competitions these days so it wasn't really a priority for me to upgrade it. If you aren't running any DSP though, it maybe worthwhile to upgrade it. I'd be curious at your observations once you install it since we're both of the same mindset as it seems.

I agree that if you keep the stock amp, you need subs in the door becuase they are crossed-over for low frequencies at the amp. If you put a 2-way speaker in there it sounds like crap. I turned mine on with the 2-way in there and it sounded terrible. i disagree with peterp a bit because those stock enclosures aren't great for subs in the first place. A mid would sound great with a new amp (and all new speakers front and rear). The stock amp is also weak for really good sound. My setup is not as ideal as I would like but I chose to change out the deck and amp. Much better sound but I added a powered subwoofer. If you leave the stock amp, you need mids/bass in the doors for sure. Don't use 2/3 way regular speakers. The harm in this is they arent made do just lows and they dont reproduce lows the same as a dedicated woofer. Look at the magnet and cone on that Tang compared to any 2 way seaker. I tried. I installed a high end Pioneer TS-D1302R and with the stock amp they sounded quiet and fuzzy. I assume its a combination of low powered stock amp, internal crossover set up for their speaker, and 4 ohm vs 2 ohm. When I changed the amp they are great. I've seen a few different setups and I've read dozens of different owners setups and they all vary to taste and budget so there is no right and wrong, but check out the wiring diagram and how the 4 speakers get split out to 6 at the amp. The crossover is not inline, it's in the amp so the door speakers anyone installs will be filtered to low frequencies. Im interested in hearing how the new Tangs will sound they seem like a good choice for this type of install. I would say installing (at the very least) new front speakers to compliment the sides. That would make a huge difference and improvement over just the doors. The front/rears are terrible speakers. Keep us posted.

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I agree with this and the reason why I decided to only upgrade the front dash with Boston Acoustics. The rear is mainly used as fill for spatial qualities only, for my setup.

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Which model Boston Acoustics did you use? Did someone install them for you or did you do the install yourself? Did you sacrifice the stock speaker frames to install the BAs or did you work out some other way? Years ago in another car I had BA component speakers and they were fantastic.

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I've installed them 4 years ago so memory is kinda cloudy but I know it wasn't even their Pro series which I've used before. I didn't want to go over the top on this car though since interior cabin acoustic space was limited. Pre-DSP days, I would've gotten the Pro series but with digital correction these days, you don't need to spend a ton to get 90% of the sound of the higher end units IMO. I installed them myself and yes I did sacrifice stock speaker frames to put these in. I've been through my fair share of speakers as I started way back in 1985 and had the first Alpine CD player. I used to be heavy in the IASCA circuit back in the day. I prefer the upper end smoothness of the BA over MB Quarts, DynaAudio, Image Dynamics, Focal, that I've tried personally fwiw.

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I installed the Tangs tonight and listened to them only very briefly. I'll give some immediate thoughts now, and then update after I've broken them in a bit and tweaked the frequency controls. For now, I tested with the same bass/mid/treble settings as the old speakers so I could get a feel for the raw differences between speakers before I start tuning for the new subs. Volume Level : The 3.6 ohms vs 2 ohms I would say is a non-issue. The new subs are at least as loud as the original speakers. The Tangs unquestionably have a lot more bass at the lowest octaves, they hit notes the originals can't hit and have way more bass shaking power. You can feel the vibrations quite a bit through the door panel. Sound Uniformity : Although the Tangs have more power in the lowest octaves, I think they put out less mid-bass than the originals (this is not surprising since the Tangs are a dedicated sub and the originals are more of a low-range woofer). The result is more impressive sound but with maybe something slightly lacking in the upper mid-bass when using the same tone control settings. This is expected because the speakers have different characteristics and I *think* it will be correctable with tone controls, but I haven't tried that yet. I did put in the Alpines front and rear -- they fit perfect with no depth issues. You do need to clip the originals, which I wasn't excited about, but once you see how cheap the original paper cone speakers are you won't be able to clip them fast enough. Disconnect the original tweeters also since the Alpines are two-way. I agree with your disagreement. If you have a separate dedicated subwoofer, then it's best to let those do the lowest notes and leave mid-bass speakers in the door. If you don't want to add a separate sub, however, I think the Tangs are worthwhile because it will get you much deeper bass than the original speakers, but as you say it does shake the enclosures and door panels quite a bit. The Tangs are impressive for their size, but a larger dedicated sub will be better with the lowest notes, and with a dedicated sub you would be better served with mid-bass in the doors.

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I have the 410s in the front dash and have been happy with them. No snipping of the factory wiring is needed if you buy from Crutchfield as they included conversion wires that connect the new speakers to the old wiring.

Anyone interested in door sub boxes already fitted for the Tangs? I had mine installed for a few weeks and decided to go a different direction.

I built and installed a custom box with two 8's for my car. I ended up removing it because the bass was rattling my interior so badly it drove me nuts. I might go this tang route in the near future.