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YOUR RESEARCHWarming up before driving
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In fact, they recently replaced an engine due to bore scoring using a Porsche short block.
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For 40 years I have pretty much changed my oil for all of these cars and bikes and that is about it.
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“Each engine is then tested rigorously-on the bench for up to half an hour, with a full minute nonstop at redline.
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There was an article in a UK Porsche magazine recently that they asked four UK engine builders what is the current state of the union on 996's and all of them said scoring is the new issue replacing the IMS issues and most believe it has to do with a combo of poor warming up procedures such as WFO when oil not up to temp and going too long before oil changes.
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A Cheetah can only run for 5 minutes before it overheats.
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There was an article in a UK Porsche magazine recently that they asked four UK engine builders what is the current state of the union on 996's and all of them said scoring is the new issue replacing the IMS issues and most believe it has to do with a combo of poor warming up procedures such as WFO when oil not up to temp and going too long before oil changes.
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Suggestion
It typically is said in cold weather, that it takes much longer to get the car to temperature if you leave it idling vs driving, which means you're running your car for a longer time at non-ideal temperatures, resulting in excessive wear.
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However if you really feel it would benefit our NA motors with synthetics, maybe we can get Jake to create an electric water pump hooked up to a turbo timer so that it can continually run the radiators fans along with the electric water pump after we turn off the car.
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Hey everyone,
Just wanted to know what everyone's thoughts were on warming up the car before driving vs just jumping in starting and driving. Is there a big difference for the 996? in relation to engine damage etc
Any vehicle that has moving parts and oil should be allowed to warm up before driving. How long is the question, when it's cold (30* or lower) I try to let my car warm up at least 2 minutes before I slowly take off. If it's 70* or so, I usually let it idle for 30 seconds before driving. Fluids settle in the lower parts of the motor and lines, allowing everything to circulate before putting heavy loads on rotating mass is always a good idea.
Start it up, wait 15 to 20 seconds to circulate fluids, drive it very easy until coolant is at 175 and/or oil pressure is at 3 to 3.5 at idle. Feel it out from there.
Turn igniotion.
Wait till oil level reader determines level.
Start car
Wait about 15 seconds (put on seat belt,etc)
Drive away with smile on my face every time.
There was an article in a UK Porsche magazine recently that they asked four UK engine builders what is the current state of the union on 996's and all of them said scoring is the new issue replacing the IMS issues and most believe it has to do with a combo of poor warming up procedures such as WFO when oil not up to temp and going too long before oil changes. One said too short of trip when cold where people are not burning off contaminates and another said revving a cold engine too high and gas washing the oil off the cly's when you do rev it. Keeping below 3K until the oil temps come up was universally agreed is key.
It would appear that the issue in their view was that 997's are at greater risk then 996's and that the 3.8 997S is the worst model to show these issues.
The interesting take away for me was that cold climates appear to be linked to the issue. I don't know anyone in my region of PCA (Upper Canada) with an IMS blow up but I know four members with piston scrubbing and that all of these cars were year round drivers.
Owners manual specifically says to not warm up engine. Be prepared to drive right away. lit RPM's below 4000 till engine up to temp.
I do the same thing on pretty much all my EFI equipped engines.
I let it sit at least until the fast idel is off, and then keep it under 2k rpm until my temp gauge is starting to read and my oil pressure drops when I put the clutch in. That way I know most things are up to temp and (i think) any oil filter bypass is off.
At least 5 minutes warm up winter or summer for me. Of course I am retired and have 5 minutes to spare. Air cooled engines, should be on the move as soon as the engine is started. Not so with a water cooled engine.
I have my pit crew break out the oil circulator/warmer 2 hours before driving.
They start the coolant circulator/warmer 30 minutes before driving.
They disconnect it 3 minutes before my scheduled drive and put the engine blanket on until I have started the engine and ready to pull out.
Maybe too much, but it makes me sleep good at night.
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I always give it a minute if she's been driven that day...
If its a cold start after being parked for a week or two I do give it a little bit of time to make sure everything is running smoothly... 5 minutes... maybe 10 minutes max...
That is in there to "game" the emissions and fuel economy tests. If the factory required a warm up the test "driver" during the emissions/fuel economy test would follow that.
(The short shifting the new automatics produce, where under light throttle the tranny can be in top gear in nearly no time, is also there to "game" the fuel economy/emission tests.)
While I care as much about emissions and fuel economy as anyone I do not see any need to risk early engine problems by driving off with a dead cold engine.
Thus my procedure has always been with a dead cold engine to let the engine idle after cold start until the idle speed drops to near normal hot idle speed. Depending upon ambient temperature this takes from under a minute to maybe a minute to maybe a minute and a half.
I find with this bit of "warmup" the engine is more tractable and easier to drive smoothly. (Both cars are manual transmission equipped.) But even with a Tip/auto I'd still let the engine (and tranny) gain a bit of heat.
Start the car, buckle up, putter through my neighborhood @ 25MPH to avoid killing pedestrians (those crazy f'ers who get up and exercise when I'm going to the office - wtf no jobs? Grr!). By the time I've purchased my caffeine at 7-11 a block from home, the car's warm enough for me to tear-*** to my heart's content.
Like Macster mentioned, the gearbox is usually a little stodgy until everything is warmed up. I've been married for 20 years, so I'm accustomed to dealing with non-early-risers...
From pages 68 and 69 of the 2004 owners manual.
Starting procedures
Do not let the engine idle to warm up
When starting the engine be ready to drive immediately. Drive vehicle at moderate speeds and avoid engine speeds above 4,200 rpm during the first 5 minutes
Stopping engine
Do not stop engine immediately after hard or extended driving
Keep engine running at increased idle for about two minutes to prevent excessive heat build-up before turning off engine
I took delivery of my 04 C2 in 2007 and it was delivered by the service department. The service advisor made specific mention to not let the car idle to warm up referencing rich fuel mixture and washing the cylinders in fuel. He also told me to remember that the temp gauge is for water temp and that didn't mean the oil and engine were at full operating temp, so go more by the time driven than the temp gauge.
The idling before shutting down after a spirited drive was explained as to help prevent hot spots.
And since there was mention of cylinder scoring and cold climates in this thread: my C2 has been my year round daily driver. Drive to work was thirty miles each way, car sat in the parking lot for 10 to 12 hours in sub freezing temps. I adhered to not idling to warm up the car, cleaned it off, bitched and moaned, then strapped in, fired it up and drove away. (heated seats helped).
During a recent service I mentioned the bore scoring issue to the tech's and yes they are starting to see it. In fact, they recently replaced an engine due to bore scoring using a Porsche short block. They were skeptical of the cold climate assumption as the cause of bore scoring.
So - since my plugs were already out and I read too much here, I had all cylinders bore scoped - No Scoring. 87k miles on the car.
I wait till idle is lower than 1k, about 30 sec then go. Every Porsche manual I've read through (951, 944.1, 955S, 955TT, 996) all state letting warm up is not advised. I guess this is why remote start isn't available.
NOW in the winter in Michigan (under 15 degrees or so), I turn the CTT on for 3 or 4 minutes to warm the seat. I do not turn on my heat or a/c on either my CTT or 996 until the coolant is reading operating temp, probably overly cautious, but if I dress for the weather, its fine. Same thing with winding the cars up (over 4k or into boost for the 955TT) I don't do that until oil temp is warm.
I do the same. Start the car, wait for the fast idle to drop and settle down (takes about a minute and gives me time to monitor the gauges). Then keep rpm below 4k until operating temperature (needle showing near 8 on 180). This is usually the time it takes for me to hit the highway (2 miles from home).
So cold start fuel enrichment is a fixed quantity regardless of RPM?
I think the "drive upon starting" is an emissions issue mandated by the fed's. After all you are wasting gas by not driving and are slower to light off the cats.
Anyway, my logic tells me to warm it up before driving and frankly I think the car runs better when I do this.
Paul
^^^^This is what I do.....
Though I probably wait 30 - 45 sec on average before I take off, and I keep it easy until temp gauge is past 160F or so. I also don't drive the 996 when temps get below freezing.
As for the recommendation to drive off immediately, that is typical German philosophy (I lived there for several years), and I think it's even on the driving test. It typically is said in cold weather, that it takes much longer to get the car to temperature if you leave it idling vs driving, which means you're running your car for a longer time at non-ideal temperatures, resulting in excessive wear.
However, knowing the Germans, this could possibly be folklore created to encourage less fuel consumption and tailpipe emissions, since if I recall correctly, there were also laws against idling cars to warm up.
The way I think of it is more of a closed loop EFI system/map that runs until some criteria is met. So in this case it's a little rich and idle is a little higher until some component is up to temp or some sensor is up to temp, then it flips to the regular map/system.
Start car
put on sun glasses
roll off my driveway in neutral and roll down the street about of 1/4 mile downhill still in neutral.
Give it a little blimp and get in gear, and take it easy until reached operating temp.
I drive my 04 C4S cab year round and will wait for the engine idle to drop to normal warm idle (below 1,000 RPMs). On starting it's usually living around 1,200-1,300 RPMs.
At freezing temps this takes about 2.5 minutes. Now that the Spring is here, it takes about 1.5 minutes. I don't notice any difference in the way the car drives though I will keep the engine speed less than 3,000 RPMs until I'm up to 180 degrees.
I never used to do this for my E46 M3 or my E60 5-series and only started doing this because of what I've read in regards to the cylinder bore scoring issues. Not even sure if my procedure is protective, but it makes me feel better.
The owner's manuals for my 914s specifically state to NOT warm up the engine before driving.
Haven't figured out why, since it seems to make sense to me to warm it up.
According to Joe in Post #8 above, the 996 manual says the same. Never noticed that before.
What good is just a warm engine and a cold tranny? Things need to come up to operating temp together in harmony. By moving. Not idling.
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Since the early 70s I have always let my German Cars and British Motorcycles warm up 1 minute in warm weather 2 to 3 minutes in cold weather. I buy my cars new and run them till 100K miles or more and then buy a new car. For 40 years I have pretty much changed my oil for all of these cars and bikes and that is about it. Triumph, VW, Audi Porsche and BMW Techs have told me the same thing, let them warm up a little.
Cold winter this year in Pittsburgh. Would start the C4S and leave shortly after that but keep RPMs < 2000 until up to operating temp. At which point all bets are off.
I am from Butler (just north of The Steel City for all the Non Burgh types) I almost bought my Macan in Pittsburgh but ended up buying it in Eastern Pa. Bucks County. I now live near NYC on the Jersey side of the Hudson. Like where I live now but Love Pittsburgh and always will.
I mean the cars like a woman, its best to warm her up a little before you stick it in
gear and start driving. Keep the revs relatively low until you get it on
to a nice section of road when the operating temperature is up. You'll be confident when you get off
the road and put her back in the garage knowing you treated her right.
I go by oil temp more than coolant temp, and my oil temp definitely rises quicker by driving (not idling). I get my oil temp via the oil pressure gauge. There can be quite a lag between coolant temp and oil temp.
Oh, just a correlation, not a number. On my car, fully warmed up is 1.5 oil pressure (at idle). Early in the drive, 3-bar is not fully warm, 2-bar is getting close. 1.25-bar is slightly overheated (on thin 0w40 mobil1) sitting in traffic after a previously enjoyable drive.
Isn't the ignition on the left side so that you can jump in the car, start it with one hand, and put it gear with the other hand at the same time?
That's what I do.
I even leave it in the driveway with the door open, so I can come out, run to the car, jump in, and be driving off within 1-2 seconds.
It still amazes me that people buy these cars; they are obviously a poor design from a company which has no clue what hey are talking about. I'm going to sell mine tomorrow!
Yes, Porsche have made some design errors; these cannot be immediately sorted out due the lag between design and production, which can be substantial.
Oil, Porsche and Exxon know far better than anyone else about the interaction between Mobil 1 oils and Porsche engines than anyone else on the planet. if reformulation was needed then it really isn't an issue for the biggest oil company in the world. Is Mobil 1 the best oil on the planet, probably not. Is it fit for purpose, probably yes.
By the time you buy your Porsche, all the necessary certifications are in place in respect of emissions etc, There is absolutely no need for Porsche to tell you to drive of immediately after starting your engine in order to comply with regulations; it already does. In accordance with the 2/3 rds of all Porsches ever built are still on the road statement, Porsche are trying to point out the best practice for looking after your car.
Your car has to start from cold, it would be better if it started from warm but the longer your engine takes to warm up, the more wear occurs. Get in, drive off at reasonable revs; wear is minimised.
Normally I have donned my sunglasses before I enter the car.
I've always let my hot rods warm up. I think the question that should be asked in this forum is "how long should we let the car run AFTER we drive it?" This is where you can cause damage if you don't let the engine cool down safely. My old man preached the same thing to me. He was a Porsche 911 gear head down to his bone. The funny thing is that although he preached that to me, he never recommended warming up ANY EFI car...just get in and drive like most of the suggestions here are. However, I still warm them up about 3 minutes before it goes out. My theory is that it's like going for a run; it requires slowly warming up and taking the last block or so back to bring your heart rate down safely. Same logic applies to the performance engines...my 2 cents.
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what?
I swear the misinformation that gets passed around based on myths and anecdotes is ridiculous.
Unless you are at the track, there is no reason to let an N/A street 911 idle before shutting it off.
x2 LOL
We are using modern car with synthetic oils. The only cars needed to cool down after driving were the older turbo cars using dyno oils so the oil doesn't coke the turbo(s).
However if you really feel it would benefit our NA motors with synthetics, maybe we can get Jake to create an electric water pump hooked up to a turbo timer so that it can continually run the radiators fans along with the electric water pump after we turn off the car.
Remember the engine temp keeps going up for some time after engine shut-down. If after I stop the car the coolant fans/engine fan happen to be running, I always wait till the fans stop running before shutting down the engine.
Yes but this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Engines are made for high temps. Everyone's going to have their own preferences or methods but as usual on RL, there's gonna be tons of bicker/bantering over various opinions which eventually get back to square one.
Yes. Engines can run even hotter when driven at the track or really aggressively without any issues. I don't see any heat soak hurting these engines. However to note, plastics have a certain tolerance to upper limit heat range. Some plastic components can prematurely wear out faster and become brittle if exposed to too much heat on a consistent basis.
The exhaust manifolds is where the most heat gets generated at sometimes over 1600 deg making it glow but that is also the area that is not part of the engine and one area that tends to cool off faster as well.
while you typically don't go ***** out 3 seconds before parking and shutting it off, even if you did, nothing is going to happen.
You guys should see how modern engines are tested and you may no longer think you need to treat it like a ming vase.
Heck, people should read what Porsche included in the 996 brochure (assuming it's actually true) to feel better about how they treat their M96...
“Each engine is then tested rigorously-on the bench for up to half an hour, with a full minute nonstop at redline.
Then a rolling-road test. And ultimately, the final exam: 90 minutes on the Autobahn, where every 911 off the
assembly line must satisfy the world's most demanding, and some say most fortunate, driver -- a Porsche test driver.”
And later:
"Of course, before any 911 leaves the factory, the system is tested to ensure it meets Porsche standards. Each
new 911 must slow from 90% of its top speed to 62mph 25 times. Consecutively. Without suffering significant brake
fade. In the process, test drivers verify that the latest generation 5.3 ABS indeed offers better brake feel and finer
steering control while helping halt the 911 from 60 MPH in just 122 feet.”
Amen brother - after I read that piece in the manual, I knew that I could beat the old girl up a bit and not feel too bad. I haven't done anything even close to what they did at the factory.
R
In my manual it also states:
"Prior to delivery, each vehicle is meticulously hand-detailed by only the most buxom of hofbrau house maidens, while attired in seductive lederhosen fashioned from the finest supple alcantara material available."
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