Quoted $1500 all in for a complete PPI with bore scoping

Here�s what a reputable Porsche shop told me. I�d love to get any and all thoughts�. The borescope inspection is an entirely different service not included with the appraisal. The oil pan and air box are removed, the oil pan and the engine need to be cleaned and all existing silicon removed. Once done we use our borescope camera to inspect each cylinder. Once that is done, new silicon is applied and the engine is filled with oil and brought to temperature and rechecked. The estimate for this service is $920 for labor and oil and sealant.

This is about right for a thorough, and proper PPI with scoping through both the sump, and spark plug access. I'd also expect a crankcase manometer reading to be included in this. On top of showing AOS condition (Values greater than 6.25 INWC), this is also used to further diagnose the potential for loss of ring seal (values less than 4.20 INWC) and cylinder/ piston issues.

If you found a car with nikasil plated cylinders (ie, a completely rebuilt engine with that service done to the block) you won't need a borescope as part of the PPI. Spending $1500 just to see if the car is any good is a bit steep.

Owner imho should have had it done. He didn't. Now it's a negotiation point in the price. You are in the driver's seat, not him. Negotiate away. Remember, you can always walk without spending any money and look for one that has already been PPIs, scoped and serviced properly from a reputable porsche indy. They are out there. Lastly, a recession is building steam. Time is on your side.

I had a very thorough PPI, not including borescope, at the local Porsche dealer for $320.00. Just for reference. And of course, this isn't LA.

It�s a good amount of work to do this properly. Just think of what the labor for plugs and coils cost, and then add the labor for taking the pictures and then going in from the bottom as well. I think $920 sounds a tad steep, but it all depends on the market and the shop quality.

It seems like the standard for a PPI is 2 hours of Labor + an oil filter. I paid about $420 before taxes for mine in Seattle back in January. So, if the they are charging the $600 for the PPI I am guessing their shop rate is around $300. And 3 hours of labor to do a proper bore scope, doesn't sound that unreasonable to me.

I had my PPI done in New Hampshire (car was in MA over the border) for $500 with bore scope to check for bore scoring. Sounds not quite as thorough as what they are quoting, but up to you if that extra bit is worth that much more.

Quotes source post: 18344046

That kind of money seems steep. If you are looking at a sub $25k car I would not spend the money. Recently there was a 100k mile 99 cab with hardtop and good maintenance for $18, there was a coupe with a 108k miles for $21k. I would prefer to get a high mileage well maintained car. Check Facebook 911 buy and sell, 986 996 buy and sell etc. Now if you are going to spend $40k on a low mileage example, then spending that much money on an inspection to make sure that you don�t any scoring makes sense. If bore scoring already started and yes people can live with it knowing that longer term they are looking at a rebuild, then as some say here use it as a negotiating tool. One strategy that you could use it�s to agree on a negotiated price with the seller prior to the inspection with the condition of a car clean health bill and no scoring. That negotiated price included the cost of the inspection, give the dealer a credit card deposit $5k similar to earnest money on a house contract.if it falls thru you can always turn around call your credit card company and dispute the charge. Good luck with your search. The economy is decelerating and at least over here now there are houses than have been on the mkt for 75 days and are currently discounted $50-$60k from original asking prices some of them are brand new around half a million dollars.

Looking at a 996/997 for only 2-3 hours is only going to net a cursory inspection at best. I have seen some cars pass a "PPI" with RMS leaks that were never caught, and broken exhaust studs. It is essential that these cars be closely inspected. This spring while working at Flat 6 Innovations I was blown away with how many messages that came through saying "I knew I should have done a better PPI but this car was the perfect color, had the perfect options and was everything I wanted, so I took my chances". Other messages were "I bought this car and now it has ticking, burns oil, and I just purchased it".

Quotes source post: 18345488

people are buying cars from bat 7 days normally doesn�t allow you to schedule a proper ppi. Some dealers don�t even allow you to take the car to your mechanic. I had a case where they told me schedule with your mechanic and he can come here and use our facilities for a PPI that was a Nissan dealership. A lot of new 996/997 buyers are entry level first porsche guys. I have meet three different guys that bought these cars, 6 months latter bore scoring one bought the car from a porsche dealership here, porsche west Houston. My thicking noise was carbon deposits on piston tops, CRC GDI gone, thanks to Porsche tech 3 knowledge. Still my mechanic got a car over the weekend from someone here at rennlist that I referred one year plus oil change yes metal in filter. 6 months oil changes no matter what, oil is cheap insurance learn how to properly drive the cars. Whatever the car has you have to buy it right. I created this term that I use frequently with my friends, ticking time bomb but you can drive it for a bit �roller plus price�.

Which makes them sitting ducks for cars that have problems. Solid sellers will have the PPI done already for the purchaser with a full report. From what I have seen people are in a really big hurry to rip themselves off with these cars. I have been astonished while sitting in on these chats when they do have a failure shortly after buying a car. Many have used any available cash to purchase the car, so they are in a bad position with an expensive repair. What will be really disappointing is when the cars that were bought at the top of the market have failures in the near term after prices have dropped, and those buyers are facing a really big repair bill after being massively upside down in the car. Buying a car that is already broken is something that should be appealing to more buyers. One reason it isn't is because of instant gratification. They want to enjoy the car now, and they lack patience.

That is the whole nutshell. When I began looking, many of the sellers would compound the sale with all sorts of idiocy, the best.....was the seller who would allow me to drive to a reputable shop to have a PPI, and if there were no issues found, the suggested price would increase!

That's the "we are serious if you are serious" price. Sounds like they're billing you 4-ish hours of labor plus materials.

Quotes source post: 18345708

And some of those were using it as their sole form of transportation so they're in an even tougher spot. I'm not judging as I did the same thing when I was in my '20s.

When I sell my cars, it's open to a PPI that the buyer pays for. I'll deliver it to the shop if the buyer is out of town and cannot take it there himself. I am honest with my description of the car but a PPI by someone else is always in the buyer's interest.

No PPI is allowed on any car that I am selling. I allowed that once and my car never drove the same after that.

Quotes source post: 18348629

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/banghead.gif

Quotes source post: 18345708

Personally, I would not accept the PPI provided by a seller. Too many dirtbags out there. Not saying it would not be an honest report, but I would feel much more comfortable taking the car to someone of my choosing who has my best interest at heart. Its worth that money both for piece of mind and to let you know what needs attention before deciding on whether to move forward.

This is, and always has been, the problem in sales. Too many dirtbags are in sales. However, a seller who is ethical and has the right sales skills can easily overcome this problem. But most people who are selling their own used Porsche do not have these skills, so it�s back the original thought that a buyer should probably do their own PPI.

Quotes source post: 18349616

Skills or no skills, I don't know you, you don't know me, so I don't know who's ethical and who is not. I know that I conduct myself always in an ethical manner, but I wouldn't expect somebody who doesn't know me to know that. Therefore I think the buyer should always spend the money and get their own PPI done at their own shop of their choosing

Here is the funny thing about a ppi and borescope. It is performed by a Porsche indy or even a Porsche dealer with a company name, address and phone number. Not the owner. After I see the service records, ppi and borescope results, I would verify that the Porsche indy was a legitimate porsche shop with experience, and then would be on the phone with the shop reviewing the cars condition.

Quotes source post: 18349652

And who paid that Porsche shop for that PPI? Why are people reluctant to spend their money to verify that the car they are hopefully buying is a good car? It's a sound investment whether you go through with it or not

No service records, no ppi, no borescope, no deal.

Quotes source post: 18349661

Should the seller also pay for your registration and insurance as well?

Hah. No, i am a capitalist not a socialist. Comes down to what the market wants. Good news is you don't have to do anything as the seller or buyer if you don't want too.

Quotes source post: 18345273

I agree that seems a bit steep for a PPI. But, I would not be making the decision based on the sale price of the car as much as I would be basing it on the potential cost of repairs I'd be avoiding. The repair cost is going to be the same for either car and dodging a $20K (?) repair bill would be of equal value regardless of sell price.

I'm amazed with you guys sometimes - you think these "Porsche certified shops" and "specialists" actually do a better job than you would be able to do yourself. And PPIs are the worst things that've ever happened to the independent seller's market. They are (more often than not), a complete waste of time and you'll more than likely get a shop that says something is wrong somewhere, only because there's a chance to make money there on the work needed (maybe not, I admit that's a long shot...). My PPI is good old fashioned judgment on the owner. Stereotypes? I use all of them. Every bad car I've owned has been because I made a stupid decision buying the car (because I liked the car itself) from someone I had a bad / off feeling about. Don't throw $1.5K down the drain. $1.5K would be a much better investment into the car and you can do a lot for it with that money.

Hey... If some of you guys want to buy a 996 sight unseen without any understanding of the condition of the engine, go for it. For those that don't, get the service records, get a PPI and borescope. For those guys trying to sell one, its your call if you want to do everything you can to prove your car is worth a higher price or not. No worries on my end.

Receipts - absolutely. Or at least old parts kept. Just something. One of the best cars I've ever owned - e46 M3 I bought in AZ and drove back across the country - had 207,xxx on the clock when I flew in and bought it sight unseen and drove it back to Philly - did not skip a beat the entire way. I felt good going into it because of the way he spoke over the phone, the punctuation and grammar in the ad he made on Craigslist, and the area the car was located - but even better when he offered to pick me up from the airport, and then invited me into his house to meet his wife and kids. I had a beer with him too. That was a great car until I wrecked it a year later. It was not a pretty car with a great history either, but he was honest about everything and with some TLC it was a car I'll always wish I had back.

Quotes source post: 18349960

Curious how you would know that a car had, for example, bore scoring when you go to look at one? Can have beers and even have a go at his wife if he lets you and she's game, still doesn't mean he isn't hiding something or that he even knows. That is an issue that can be completely hidden and become a stupidly expensive issue to fix. I spent $500 on my PPI with Bore Scope, and it was absolutely money well spent. It pointed out a few things that could use work, which was good for me to know and gave me both a game plan on what I will need to set aside for repairs and for negotiations. I passed on another car that I did a PPI on because there were a few more high dollar items that were in need of repair/replacement that had the seller been willing to drop the price more I would have moved forward. It didn't make sense for me to go with that car based on the amount of things wrong with it. If you want to gamble and just look at a car and base your decision on that, that is fine, you may get lucky like that BMW. OR you may end up spending $20k on a car that needs $30k in repairs.

Quotes source post: 18349590

To me, it would depend on the shop that did the PPI. In the internet age, you can research the reputation of any business and if they checked out, I would be okay with an owner's PPI. I'm going to sell the M5 next year and I'll be paying for a PPI before it goes on the market. It will be done at an indie that's known and respected in the BMW community. If that's not acceptable to a potential buyer, they're free to find a different car.

Quotes source post: 18350294

So you would not let a buyer take the car somewhere of their choosing for a PPI if they wanted?

Quotes source post: 18350246

I mean it's just a gut feeling I have - buying a car isn't the only time I use that "sizing up" instinct. It obviously sounds dumb to someone else but it has done me right more than it has done me wrong... Maybe I put too much faith in people. I've also worked on just about any car I've owned so I know what sounds right and what doesn't, what's a big deal and what's not... I guess it's just experience. It's like anything man. If someone gives you some sort of runaround on a basic question, that's usually a red flag - use that when buying a car from someone. I will tell you that I'd never buy an older sports car from a dealer unless I knew the guy running the place personally - always buy directly from the owner. To answer your bore scoring question, typical warning signs are loud tick that is consistent throughout revs, heavy soot on driver side tail pipe (bank 2 tail pipe), or heavy oil consumption (this one you wouldn't figure out until ownership, most likely). Raby will tell you that bore scoring is a design flaw and borderline inevitable. He may be right, but I'd be hard-pressed to believe that you'll find a one-owner 996 that has been well cared for with bore scoring (any examples of well cared for cars that aren't one owner vehicles don't count - this eliminates the possibility of a previous owner not caring for it properly). Edit - I mean sort of kidding, sort of not, but if the guy let me have a go at his wife (like you said), I wouldn't buy the car... See what I'm saying? I know you were joking but to me, but that's exactly what I mean (haha, I like where this is going...).

Quotes source post: 18350298

No. This is partly because I wouldn't let a stranger "take the car" anywhere if I wasn't also in the car and partly because there are no shops in San Diego that know more about old BMWs than my guy. Also, I'm not concerned with getting absolute top dollar. It will sell for 3-5 times what I paid for it regardless of who did the PPI.

Not only that, there are plenty of people that think they are ethical but turn out not to be. We agree.

Quotes source post: 18350294

When you want to sell the E34 (edit, e28 - shame on me) let me know, and save yourself the money on the PPI.

Quotes source post: 18350294

^^^^^THIS Solves the problem of having everybody and their mother taking your car to an indy for a PPI and scope.

My car had a PPI from the seller, not much detail, but was all good comments, went almost 6 months before the engine broke. I'm pretty sure mine was escalated by a failed AOS, but the cyl crack may have been the result of whatever got them to put a new water pump on.. I'd want my OWN ppi... Sell wont work with it I'd walk.

I tend to agree that PPIs, at least how most shops do them now, are a waste of time and money. $1,500 buys a fair number of maintenance and repair parts to cover minor issues. For bore scoring, it could happen 3 days after your clear PPI and scope. Listening closely to the engine, reviewing records for regular oil changes with good oil, and getting an idea of the seller's mechanical sympathy may be just as useful. I have to agree to a large extent with HKovalcik about buying the seller. I recently purchased a different brand car and right off the bat the seller was a total weirdo and a massive tool. I saw a few things when looking the car over that were a bit concerning, but nothing I couldn't handle. 2k miles later I was replacing head gaskets. total spent in repairs wasn't horrible as I DIY'ed everything, but man, I should have trusted my gut on it.

If only we lived in a beautiful world of rainbows and unicorns... And every 996 was serviced properly...

We've received 2 confirmed reports of bore scoring so far this month from those that fit this description. 28 and 70K miles, respectively.

Quotes source post: 18351062

Out of curiosity, what was the oil change interval.

Quotes source post: 18351029

I got an investment property ill sell you. My guy just did an inspection for you, he said its all good.

Quotes source post: 18351267

Hah! One of these days I'll buy another 996. But no way in he'll would even go see it unless the owner first showed me service records and proof that the sump was dropped and a scope was done recently. If I liked what I saw in the docs, pictures, videos and after a conversation with the indy, I would then go see it and have another indy drop the sump and scope it. imho, its on the seller to prove the cars worth, and it's up to the buyer to prove it all over again. Yep, it costs money, but what's $750-$1,500 in the grand scheme of things when many new owners today on this forum are facing a 30k rebuild and another 15-20k in other refresh costs. Seller doesn't want to prove the car is worthy, then they should take a substantially lower price for it. Buyer doesn't care to prove that the car is in viable shape, then they run the risk of a major engine rebuild, suspension and exhaust refresh that will run them 2x the price of the purchase. Four 996s this past week didn't sell on BAT. Sellers aren't getting any smarter, but buyers are. Hope this trend continues.

And this is why the issue is more of a design defect than something an owner did. I believe most Porsche owners take better care of their cars than many other brands, and yet, this stuff still happens. Sometimes, a healthy person who eats right, does all the right things, can still get hit with an unlucky diagnosis or get hit by a car.

Let me ask ya'll this: If an advertisement contained: Clean carfax, warm weather car, recent service, oil change with UOA from blackstone (excellent report), clean tailpipes, clean DME, no oil consumption, smooth idle, smooth cold start, no ticking. Would you still pay $1500 for a borescope?

I just had my '99 borescoped, and a leak down test performed. Also did AOS, Plugs, tubes, coil packs along with some other stuff. It was a big bill but a fraction of the cost of a surprise engine rebuild. For me it's a HUGE piece of mind knowing the engine is healthy for years and miles of enjoyment. Some people like to just say F' it and see what happens. I'm a belt and suspenders kind of guy and rather front load maintenance to enjoy a car trouble free.

Quotes source post: 18351494

After they sent me all the records and it looked good, and it was a car I really wanted, i would then have the sump dropped and then have it scoped. Wouldn't be 1500 in Chicago burbs but yes, i would still pay for it. Why spend 20-35k for a car that will cost me another 35k if I just spend 750 on a scope.

Quotes source post: 18351510

Same here. Didn't think I had any issues, but just wanted to make sure before I spend alot of money on my 10 year major refresh.

Buying a car that has asymptomatic issues that you know about is much different than expecting that everything is ok and you find out the hard way that they aren't. The issue with bore scoring is you typically don't have any symptoms at all until at least late in stage 2 failure. It seems that some cars will not have a symptom until they hit stage 3, and start consuming oil at a notable rate all at once. If you know that you have an issue at the time of purchase, and that is documented you at least stand a chance to use the situation as a negotiation tool. The guys that find the perfect car with the perfect mileage, the perfect options in the perfect color are willing to pay top dollar for that car. These guys seem to be so ecstatic that they found the car that they'll skip a PPI just to buy the car before someone else does. This is the case even if they know about these issues. Some trouble tickets I see come through say this very thing. Those guys pay top dollar only to experience a heart wrenching situation that costs them even more money. This has been especially true in the past year or so with the 996 values way higher along with demand. Jake blames lots of this behavior on people not having patience, (he calls it Amazon syndrome) and expecting that the worst case won't be the one that plays out in their case. I hear him telling guys that they have to assume that every car they are looking at has a problem, and it is the inspectors job to find it before it finds them. The other group are the guys that are oblivious to the issues that these engines have. They don't know the difference between an aircooled 911 and a 996, or that one has a radiator and the other one doesn't. It is just a 911, looks affordable and they want it- right now.

Quotes source post: 18351029

All ya'all's gotta do is sprinkle pixie dust on yourine car when ya buys it.. .

Quotes source post: 18351827

Doesnt BAT send you pixie dust when you open an account with them?

Which is why I bought an 88 911 that already had the engine rebuild done, and why years later, bought a 996 for $17k. Because sooner or later, there is a big bill coming. P lenty O f R eceipts S orry C an�t H ave E verything

This thread is getting out of control. Every 996 is going to have bore scoring some day. When I bought mine it wasn't even discussed. It was all IMS. Now pretty much nobody discusses IMS bearing failures. $1500 is pretty much stupid money for a PPI IMO. Maybe a $2500 would be better? Why not $3500? Must be the best, just like lawyers that charge more. Hopefully Porsche still sells short blocks when my engine grenades some day. I will just rebuild it myself and have fun. I have put about 30K on my car in 6 years and still smile when I drive it. Even though the right tail pipe is more sooty as compared to the left tail pipe. Original IMS bearing. I sleep well at night.

Quotes source post: 18351029

I remember when my girlfriends father purchased a new 2000 996 and was following the first service schedule at something like 5000 miles. At that time it was recommended to change just the filter, but not the oil. I questioned this , as when I changed the filter, the oil that came out was as black as the oil in my 200,000 mile diesel truck. He held firm on the filter only change, and I thought that was a really bad idea. with those sort of Porsche service recommendations I have a difficult time believing that many of the cars following the Porsche maintenance schedule being well maintained in that area. This is also the era of sealed automatic transmissions, and that again is absurd as an owner.

Quotes source post: 18352406

Bingo. You show me a pristine 996 with 25k miles and it's may very well be a prime candidate for borescoring. Why? Because it probably only had one oil change in 22 years. Bet it's paint and interior look great though... Imho, Porsche facilitated the bore scoring issue with 15k oil change recomendations. When I bought my 2002 996 in 2002, I thought it was a typo on the Porsche document. Couldn't believe the stupidity of the recommendation. You wonder why some cars suffer from bore scoring? Fresh clean oil is the lifeblood of an engine. Then the car gets put on BAT for sale with no service records, which probably means very few oil changes, and someone buys it because it's in great visual shape with shiny seats, paint and relatively low miles. But they dont have the sump dropped nor scoped, and then they wonder why they suffer from bore scoring a few months later. Folks, do yourself a favor if you are buying a 996, drop the sump, see what's in there and then scope it before you buy it. Plenty of great 996s out there for sale that have engines that have been well serviced. But just as many that haven't.

Quotes source post: 18352035

I bought a 90k mile car that had 41 out of 42 car fax service records at a porsche dealership. Clean car fax. $18k early car. On top of that since the trucks wouldn�t show up to pick the car up the dealer gave me $500 to go pick it up. I flew to ohaire they drove me to a little town in Wisconsin and i drove it home 1300 miles. I spent $330 picking the car up. No ppi, I did post ppi which I wasn�t charged for it. Anyway today 11k miles latter still going strong. Today I know a lot more about the car, the issues that it can have, connections for parts work etc, an awesome mechanic and friend. Now, I just had the 4 oil change, so I�m changing oil every 6-7 months, 2500 miles. I know what an engine rebuilt will cost but there are many more available sources at different prices. In my case I can afford without questions any repairs, I keep the car in top mechanical shape, ie I want a car that can take me when I want where I want. The aesthetics are secondary to me, I don�t see the car behind the steering wheel but I feel the adrenaline when I smash the throttle hear the engine and bang the gears. I see almost all auctions showing paint metter readings. Cars that have been recently paint corrected ceramic coated etc. That can do squat for the mechanical condition of the car. I will be the guy buying the ugly duck with Pitina paint but I�ll get it at a great price and it�ll be a driver. Yes I got USAA to pay me for hail damage, no I didn�t spent the $1500. I drove both cars yesterday the turbo and the 99. I�m taking the 99 to cars and biers for me this morning. A cool thing happened after I bought the car, I found this forum, I learned even more about porsches and vuola not wanting another possible time bomb 💣 I bout an 03 turbo that a couple of days ago I found out has K24s/18 turbos capable of supporting 800 hp. If you can�t afford the proper maintenance you shouldn�t buy these cars, Murphy�s law.

Quotes source post: 18352606

Porsche went even further on the 997.1 recommending 20K mile oil changes... Does the 997.1 have a more prevalence for bore scoring...? Yes it does..could this be a major contributor,,,? I think so...

Quotes source post: 18351315

I was one of those RNM high bidders and I�m going to see the car tomorrow and now I�m terrified because of this thread� I�d just gotten okay with IMS but seems like trouble lurks at all new corners now!

Quotes source post: 18353997

Drive the Car, tell the owner to start it Cold look at the driver side tail pipe. Check the coolant reservoir. Check the oil, touch it smell it. Tires age thread, run your fingers thru the brake rotors, you are looking for flat smooth. Since we don�t know exactly which car it is check over Dme over rev report, cam deviations, fuel trims, all of this if a durametric is available to you or if the owner has it. Regarding valuation what year, what model, how many miles and what services had been done to the car that you have paper records to confirm. Finally try to figure out as much as you can why he/she or the dealer is trying to sell it. I know that in today�s car market there is not much negotiating as before but it is still possible. In the test drive if the car was started cold and you didn�t see smoke out of the tail pipe, ask the owner for them to drive the car first, if it�s a individual selling the car and right away they start hammering the throttle, that�s a warning sign. On the other hand they let it warm up nicely not exceeding 3,500 rpms on gear shifts and then they let you drive it that�s a good thing. Be aware of the following tactic, April while on my birthday trip in San Antonio I saw a car 04 aero kit lower miles 37000 , blue black interior, Bose. That looked great on paper. When I went to see the car it was warmed up. The salesman said that someone had looked at it less than an hour ago. The salesman knew exactly at what time I was going to drop by. Two days latter unannounced I show up, the first salesman wasn�t there, so I asked about the car. Anyway we go start the car yes blue smoke out of the tail pipe. At this point I asked them if they will let me take the car to an independent shop for a ppi and im told that their shop already looked at 90 points on the car and they don�t let cars out. That was a perfect spec car for me but my gut feeling told me to walk away. I like buying the owner. Long term ownership is good in my mind. I�ll be concerned about someone that acquired the car sometime this year put less than 500 miles, did the barely minimum to get it to sell. It all is going to depend on what amount of money we are talking about. Please keep us updated not all the cars out there are bad.

Quotes source post: 18353997

Ben, first of all congrats. Please tell us all about your car! The 996 is an incredible car that is well worth ownership. I have has mine for 20 years and will keep it until I can't drive it anymore and then my son gets it. The topic of this thread was about a $1500 ppi and borescope, and as usual it drifts off too if it's really needed or not and then ultimately what to look for in a car and how to prove its in good shape or not. Think of RL as a bunch of guys sitting in a cigar bar who all own and love the 996, just discussing the 996 and its issues, solutions and ways to keep it running in top form. No need to lose sleep, the probability is in your favor that you have a good car. Tell us about it, ask any questions even if you think they are stupid, and you will get help amd perspective. It is an incredible car that is durable as he'll.

Quotes source post: 18354093

Oh sorry, I meant since I was the high RNM bidder I was going to see about buying it outside BAT. Checked it out this morning and made a thread question about the only known issue he said, which was very thirsty oil. Zero smoke though. Cold started also with no audible issues. To the person who responded prior with the full list of things, I totally balked on everything except the cold start. He didn't have his records and needed to get them from the mechanic, and then i got self conscious about asking more questions, and figured why spend the time now test driving etc, if the records don't exist. He did agree to take the car to any shop i wanted to do a PPI as he said he was confident there was nothing wrong. So at that point I figured i'd trust the experts and get PPI+bore scope (to stay relevant on this topic!) and kinda stopped poking at things that I didn't know what I was poking at He seemed like a really honest guy, but he also might not know what's lurking. The price also ended up being more than I was expecting, but I guess that's why auctions have reserves Hopefully the PPI isn't as much as the one quoted in this thread- it's hard to know what to do !

Quotes source post: 18349590

I think if it was a P dealer I would accept it but not from an unknown indy.

Quotes source post: 18353997

Rennlist will definitely scare the crap out of anyone. Don't let that stop you. Just do adequate due diligence given the car's history. I bought my 2000 996 (52K) using the stupid fingers crossed approach and I freaking love this car. I keep telling my indy to find stuff and he gets nothing. IMSB = no need - dual row. Oil is clean every year. Time for ignition coils - nope they've been done. I've been put on alert that the brakes will be ready next spring . The seller was a high volume BAT Porsche dealer and I researched that seller. I would be more careful with a private party seller than an established dealer.

I think that, if these types of threads scare someone, Porsche ownership is not for them. Affordability (purchase price PLUS all the ongoing maintenance) is not the Porsche mantra. Airing out the issues for all to see and knowing what to look and ask for when buying a Porsche helps us 1st time (and subsequent) owners succeed in our buying experience. Our cars are fairly robust, but older and used and sometimes abused. Any and all problems can be lurking under (and on) the skins of our cars. Caveat Emptor! If it was't for this site (and my oldest son's personal experience as a Porsche owner), I would have overlooked the signs of a failing IMSB (on a well documented/maintained 56,000 mile car). Lucky for me I caught it during my purchase and the seller made it right. Do you own research, carefully look over any car you are thinking of buying and get a PPI, if at all possible. Also, trust your gut !! Doing all this will save you big money down the road. I did all this and it helped me make a reasonable purchase of a nice car. It also came with the expectation of the $8,000 bill to get her maintained up where she needed to be, BEFORE I drove her home. Just my 2 cents.

I often forget how expensive other cars can be as well. We had an Audi Q5 that would sometimes just stop when it was really hot outside. The dealer wanted $7,700 to have the timing chains replaced. Another friend with a Honda needed a $6,000 automatic transmission. A buddy with a Mercedes needed new head bolts. A friend with an E46 M3 spent thousands on Vanos and connecting rod bearings. My point is that a LOT of things are expensive these days, especially from dealers or other German cars.

Quotes source post: 18351315

because a $1500 PPI won't catch everything. PPI wouldn't have caught my Cayman S rod bearings that were so eroded and pitted it's surprising I didn't blow the engine before it was torn apart. Two separate bore scopes before buying a 996? LOL

everyone's situation is different. some people know what they're getting into a buy a car for the spec maybe even with the intent to rebuild the engine someday. Some people just want to drive a 911 and don't like surprise expenditures. Bore scope is probably more advantageous for the latter.

Yeah. A PPI won't catch everything. But it certainly will help. Especially if you are a newbie to 996s and don't know what you are looking for. Dropping the sump, seeing what bits are in there and getting a solid scope is critical. To me, service records are critical because they are a paper trail as to what has and has not been done and when, allowing you to realistivally estimate what your costs will be if items haven't been done. And yes, cost savings if they have. All of which should be used in the negotiation. The 996 is such a damn great car. Just hate to see folks have a bad experience if they get a lemon.

Quotes source post: 18358626

No, but a UOA would have......

Skip brings up a good point. Question... If a seller has solid records keeping for all maintenance showing oil change history which is supplemented by regular, or at least every other change, Used Oil Analysis showing low wear metals that have remained steady over their ownership, would you still want to perform a bore scope? Playing devil's advocate here. Obviously nothing beats a visual inspection but if the circumstances don't allow for one, for whatever reason, would good UOA numbers be good enough? I'd love to see a comparison of UOA for someone's car, like GC996, who has done a stellar job maintaining his car and has recently confirmed that bores are clean vs someone with a car who has developed scoring to see what and when the spike in wear metals appeared.

I have performed UOA on almost all of my oil changes, I don't know if I did the first one. That is what I use to look at the health of my engine. It doesn't capture everything, but it's a good start.

Quotes source post: 18359638

Pete, you bring up a good question and points. 1. The service records show what's been done or not done which gives you a starting point in quantofying what could go wrong or will need to be replaced, therefore the cost. 2. The oil testing further confirms what could be wrong and therefore a cost. 3. The ppi is a visual analysis using the service records to verify. 4. The bore scope is a visual analysis as well to verify. Put all 4 together and you have a comprehensive idea as to what your buying or driving in our case. Which is what I did at the beginning of the year with my 10 year refresh. I do plan on testing my oil again with both oilvue and speeds testing kit over the next few weeks to compare to the baseline I did a while ago. If you do only one of the four, then you really don't have as complete of a picture. FWIW

Quotes source post: 18359272

precisely. And that is exactly what caught my bearings before they spun. Thanks to the advice on this board I had a UOA done and saved my engine which is now being rebuilt. But a PPI would not have caught this. I think a PPI is relevant but I don�t think it�s the 100% guarantee some seem to think it is btw here�s my rod bearings

Quotes source post: 18359674

I agree, that provides a drastically better overall picture of the vehicles health than a PPI alone. some buyers want this. I don�t for a $30k car

Quotes source post: 18359735

No question. Everyone has different objectives, price points and tactics. My goal is to provide a panoramic view that may help to save a few folks money and/or a few headaches.

FWIW I don't see much value in a seller preemptively doing a PPI UNLESS it is for the sake of the seller wanting to know the state of the car & address things prior to sale. As a buyer I will make my own choice as to where the PPI is done just because there is a potential conflict of interest depending on who is spending the money. Obviously this makes some implications of whatever shop was used to do a seller-financed PPI, but I'd likely feel more comfortable getting it done at the shop of my choice.

Want to chime in on this again. I'm about to go down to NC to buy an '01 e46 M3 as a daily driver. It has no maintenance records other than what's on the Carfax, 3 previous owners (with the current owner owning since 2011), and has a clean Carfax with a clean title. He sent me a few photos and I talked to him a few times on the phone - very normal guy and was honest about things as I will be flying down to get the car (bringing cash too). I'm going to bring a fake PA plate and drive the thing back. Call me an idiot, but it's a good deal and nobody else jumped on it because he hasn't had "the big three" done... The big three is nothing more than a bunch of forum keyboard warriors who literally have no idea what they're talking about (it's rod bearings, subframe reinforcement and rear shock mounts - all three of which go bad usually due entirely to driver error or the overly aggressive SMG system BMW put in those cars at the time (and this one's a manual)). If the rod bearings haven't been done, I can still take it to a dealership and have them do it for free (it was a BMW recall issued on all e46 M3's prior to 2003.5). But most importantly the guy says he changed the oil himself (and proactively said Castrol GTX 10w-60 which is perfect), and everything looks well cared for. Southern car with no rust its entire life. I'm thinking I lucked out. Obviously only time will tell but I'm feeling good about it. I also know the e46/e36 M3 very, very well so that factors into my decision here. I'm not going to bother him with a bunch of questions, a PPI, or anything of the like - just going to take his word for it.

You are not an idiot if you buy a E36 or E46 M3 without a PPI, especially if you know those cars very well and if the car is priced right. Personally, if i were to buy an E36 or E46 M3, i would just look at the cosmetics, do a quick compression test myself and pay the seller if I like the car.

I'd like the 996 community to get there, because there seems to be a lot of fear-mongering amongst other users and vendors that come on here (not trying to throw any shade...). I'm guilty of constantly thinking something's wrong with my car too, but then you learn that these are very good cars, and the motors are not made of glass and gummy bears (read that somewhere...).

I think you are nuts buying a car off of "feel good" pretty pictures and a nice conversation. But i fully respect your approach and decision. Thats what makes a market.

Definitely way more than just a feel good approach... I ran a Carfax, facetimed him on a cold start of the car, asked him some different questions that someone would only ask if they knew something about the e46 M3, called a dealership with the VIN to ensure the rod bearing recall had been done (it was, around 84K - the seller didn't even know this), etc ... surely wasn't a "put the bullet in and fire" type of deal. Maybe I didn't explain that fully in the post prior - definitely did thorough research - basically everything you could do sans a PPI and extensive maintenance receipts.

Quotes source post: 18369591

if you pay close attention to a bunch of bat and pcar sales auctions a lot do paint correction, ceramic coating and now people are paying over $2k to do dry ice cleaning, but these same sellers, don�t include Dme reports, a lot of times don�t do Cold start videos. A lot of time the car was purchased this year in California, but now it�s located in NJ with a California tittle and the oil was changed 6 months ago. You will notice that a bunch of the listings have the paint meter readings. A lot of listings say no knowledge of ims, car hasn�t been scoped, you ask oil consumption and no answer. More and more cars are now reserve not met. The 02 gt2 didn�t sold, one guy commented that the over rev report had more than a lemans car. The last thing I told the owner of the gt2 was that I was interested in it at my price, and I needed to sleep good at night regarding whatever I paid for it. I don�t overpay for anything. I use to sell pro detail that was the professional appearance product line of eagle one , I used to train people on how to spend about $50-75 worth of product could get you a higher sales price for the car our number back then was at least $500. The old saying about these pretty looking cars don�t judge a book by it�s cover.

As someone who hopes to own one of these vehicles at some point I figured this would be as good a time as any for my first post. After going down the bore scoring rabbithole it seems like everyone one of these engines is a ticking timebomb that will eventually need a teardown/rebuild at some point. Even those with no signs of scoring that are serviced using LN's preventative guidelines could eventually develop symptoms now matter what you do. If thats true it would seem that the true market value of all 996 and 997.1s that haven't had the rebuild should be at least 40-50% less than where they are today given you are looking at a 20-30k rebuild. At the end of the day you'd be looking at $50-70k all in (or more) with market values at $30-40k, whereas you could spend similar or slightly more money on a 996 turbo or a 997.2 and not have to worry about this, let alone IMS. I realize that most sellers and buyers are happily ignorant to all of this and simply find one they like, do a minimal amount of diligence and drive off happy. However I can't "unsee" everything I've read so I'm wondering if the best course would really to just try and find a 996 or 997.1 roller in the low-mid teens that you know needs a rebuild and try to keep the all-in costs in the $40-50k range knowing that when all the work is done you are basically getting a completely refreshed car that in some ways is better than new. Am I thinking about this the right way?

Definitely not, in my opinion. Sounds like the result of too much reading this forum and others. There are thousands upon thousands of 996 and 997 owners out there putting enjoyable worry free miles on their car. I'd say your assumption is true IF you plan on owning the car forever and driving it a ton of miles. But if that is the case, that's true for most sportscars.

I have written here often that if you spend enough time reading these posts you will likely never buy a 996 / 997.1. I bought my MY 2000 C2 (52K miles) on BAT from a reputable, high volume dealer (1600 Veloce). In hindsight it was very high risk but it has worked out beautifully. After 2 years I am ecstatic over this car. A car this old with so few miles (relatively) had to be taken care of. You have to keep in mind that most people come here with a problem. One poster yesterday likely had suffered a catastrophic engine failure and came here for advice. The advice you get here is second to none! As a first time buyer you can manage the buying risk by looking at cars with extensive service records (mine had none) and doing a PPI. The IMSB and bore scoring risks are knowable/manageable. Remember that less than 1% of dual row IMSBs and 8% of single row IMSBs fail. This is based on old data but a good, general indicator. These cars are incredible.

I agree with Pulpo. Coming up on a year of ownership, I'm starting to realize very few people on this forum are asking "why" to essentially everything they're told. I firmly believe these are great cars. You're thinking isn't logically incorrect, there's just too much fear in what you wrote - that seems to have been instilled by what Pulpo said above. The only thing I stand by with these cars is the earlier, the better. Mainly for dual row IMSB bringing you from 4-5% failure to below 1%, cylinder linings pre-fire, and throttle cable. But you can do the imsb yourself as-is on a 3.6 if worried....

For sure, if you buy a roller and have the engine built with the quality of an FSI engine, you are ahead of the curve. Takes patience, but worth it.

Scored bores, IMS bearings and oil pressure have made some a lot of money. So effective has been the marketing that people take their perfectly working engines, (which are worth at least $10.2K in my case) and send them off to get a rebuild for improved reliability (but are they ?) and more power (not appreciably more than bolt on's / tune) and those rebuilds cost upwards of $20K, some of them maybe much, much more. And everyone is happy with their rebuilds and fixed IMSB that were not broken, well, they better be - if you dare to ask - Why ? - you are met with a bunch of people who are too lazy and technically incompetent to actually answer the questions, so what you get is, do what I did because I was told to do it and now I am telling you to do it. This forum is filled with scared owners and perspective owners. It is not filled with people who want to understand if there is something worth being scared about. And, I would NEVER pay 1500 for a PPI on a car I was going to sell unless I stood to profit very handsomely for the sale or it was going to be funded by the buyer.

Ah, to make money on fear... Sort of like that Corona thing! /thread

I definitely agree with all of this and obviously realize that there is extreme selection bias on these forums because you aren't hearing from the 98% of the people who have no problems. IMS/AOS/RMS doesn't scare me because I've come to expect a $2-5k repair to correct/prevent the inevitable "exhaust port in the death star" item in most high performance European cars. Bore score is a different animal but I don't want to overthink it (as I tend to do with car purchases).

Quotes source post: 18375777

Buy a 3.4 99. Buy it at the right price, if it needs a rebuilt and you bought it right many options out there below the $15k mark. Buy the bad looking car with strong mechanicals and you�ll be ok. Today's an 01 mezger turbo all sorted sold for $43k all in. This are good, great driving cars.