Still on the fence about purchase. Are the M96 engines really that bad?

So I'm still on the fence about getting a 996. I've found one. C4. 125mi. 22K USD. Recent work, PPI blah blah blah....etc. But are these engines as bad as the internet seems to make them out to be? Seems like the IMS is the least of my concern as it's easy enough to change and then your problems go away for a few years. But every other thread I read on here points back to a story of someone's engine catastrophically failing due to another issue. AOS hydro lock, intermix, cylinder head made in Y2K that just cracks, water pump impeller blade breaking off somewhere, frost plug blowing out, bore scoring. The list goes on and on. It's not so much that things go wrong and need to be fixed, it's more the fixes themselves..... partial or complete rebuilds.($$,$$$). I just read a thread on the previous owner of my 911 having to spend thousands chasing a glitch with the cam solenoid. I also understand the other side of the coin that no one posts 'Today I went for a drive and nothing happened' I don't recall this many failures being talked about when I bought my aircooled 3.2. There was just one known issue that was talked about (valve guides/seals that leaked). That thing has been bullet proof for the 75mi/15 years I've owned it. My VW Type 3 has also been more or less reliable but you can fix any problem on that thing very quickly and for peanuts So my options are Buy 996 C4, do as much preventative stuff as I and hope it doesn't grenade. Buy a 987.2 S with the same mileage for the same money and enjoy a more reliable car that doesn't have a back seat Buy nothing, save money for something else, live a boring life. Maybe it's cause I am older but I don't recall having this kind of doubt when I got for my 88 911. Thank you for listening to my early moning ramblings.

I don't think they are that bad but that the expense of rebuilding in the event of a failure has placed a huge emphasis on the shortcomings. The consequences are just so financially high in comparison to the purchase price of a vehicle that I think, like anytime you buy into a car that has failure points in excess of the cost of the car to repair, you should do that eyes wide open. God knows there are a lot of S class Benz's that got parted out or sent to the yard when the air suspension quit - this is no different. I also think that there are sound marketing reasons for companies that offer parts and rebuilds to highlight the value of their "fixes" and their customers following suit to comfort themselves that their money on parts or rebuilding was worth it, so you should spend it too. That all said, some engines do have issues, I seem to read FAR more about bore scoring than I do any other failure mode. While there is conjecture that there are ways to prevent or mitigate it, it's just people talking and you're going to have to decide on your own if they are right.

I hear you! However, this is a technical discussion forum so you're going to see a lot of posts from 996 owners who are experiencing problems. Be patient and continue your pursuit of a C4 (shameless plug My C4 Cab) ! The 996 is an amazing chassis that handles very well indeed but preventive maintenance, along with regular oil change regimen, is really the key once your have the engine sorted. John

All of these cars are going on 20+ years old. While there are known issues with these motors, they will seem larger than life. It's just the nature of good news versus bad news. Nevertheless, at this age all 996s are going to need work. Thank entropy if you will. As long as you are going into this with enough financial cushion the worst that can happen is down time and draining some of those expendable funds. If you go into this with little or no emergency funds, then you are setting yourself up for a very sour experience. The best advice is to take your time and search for the best example you can find. If you still have reservations about the engine, consider a Turbo. Those engines are not only different, but as bulletproof as any made on this planet.

Don't forget that these forums are sponsored by the same companies that will gladly sell you various 'solutions' to make you feel better about these engines so it's in their interest to make you feel bad enough first. Only in the USA the IMS problem has been so blown out of proportion - coincidentally it's where the most popular IMS solution maker is based. What a coincidence!

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This statement(s) is complete and utter garbage. Same things were being said 20+ years ago regarding IMS bearing failure until the class action lawsuit and then people started to listen. People were like, "Well damn, I guess it is a 'real' issue". Bruce Anderson of Excellence magazine was one of the first to sound the alarm and didn't have any vested interests in aftermarket 'solutions'. Fact is, most of the problems are perpetuated by owners on this forums, not the vendors or sponsers. All technical forums are created to be "Call for Help" platforms.

You don't understand - I'm not saying these engines are without any flaws, all I'm saying is those flaws are being blown out of proportions, coincidentally often with companies making solid buck on "preventive" work being somewhere near behind the scenes. And it's not even my idea, just check some communities from Europe, where people are nowhere near this paranoid about those cars. There's even this joke floating around, which I already posted in some other thread, that you could rob a garage in the USA with just the IMS bearing in your hand, that's how scared of it are people around here. PS: There were around 175 thousand 996s produced, around 29 thousand of which were the Turbo/GT2/GT3/Cup cars with engines not prone to the issues we're discussing here. That leaves over 145 thousand of M96 cars sold in the whole world, I'd risk saying huge part of them are still around, and most of them are still without catastrophic engine failure in their history.

Just buy the 987. Better car than any C4.

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I've been involved with more than 15 Porsche forums and have founded one of the Porsche 996 forums on Facebook. In all my years, it's NOT the vendors or shops that "stir the pot", it's the owners of these cars. Misery loves company.

Well, it's also a well known thing that most of the time, people go to those forums with problems, which makes it look like there are only problems with the thing the forum is about. There's always not enough "happy people" there Anyway - I didn't want to sound offensive, sorry if I did. I just like to take things into consideration more reasonably.

Old man neri. Let me try to help with this decision. I viewed the vast amount of information about failure modes as a positive and very helpful in my search for a 996. I argue that because the issues and solutions have been so well documented, a 996 may be the only car you could buy sight unseen. You have clearly done your research. You know where the failure points are and how they can be addressed. There are no surprises (unless you get a cabriolet, in which case you need to know about the cables that a motor pulls to unlatch the clamshell cover - $3K to replace at the dealer). That being said, I would not settle for any 996 which didn't have a complete set of service records that prove it was well cared and that some of the known issues had been addressed. I sure I share this feeling with others, but every day that I drive my car and it makes it back to the garage sounding just the same, is a fantastic day!

@old man neri With any 20-25 year old car, you gotta put things in the proper perspective. Rubber, plastic and metal pieces will eventually wear down and need to be replaced or rebuilt. Further, every car has issues that can lead to a slow death or fast death. Most folks don't keep their cars 20-25 years so they don't see these issues nor do they care. But if you own a Porsche 911 of any model, you most likely care quite a bit to keep it on the road for as long as you can. So you go to a forum like Rennlist to learn about it and it's issues, so we discuss them and how to fix them, prevent them and ultimately rebuild them. So it's a discussion of issues on steroids which can alarm anybody that isn't prepared to own and service a 20-25 year old classic sports car. Here is the good news. Every issue known to man on the m96/97 powered 996, 997, 986 and 987 has been identified and categorized, with procedures and solutions having been developed to prevent the issues from happening. Sure, if the previous owner(s) didn't properly prevent the issues from happening, you as a new owner will inherit those issues and worse case scenario will have to pay for an engine swap or rebuild which is very expensive. Doesn't matter if it's a Porsche, McClaren, Aston, Ferrari, Mercedes, Corvette, Audi, BMW, or even Miata, etc. Same rules apply. So the key is to buy a car that has been well serviced and maintained over its life, with service records that prove it. And to make sure everything is in good shape, you want to test the oil, drop the sump and see what's in there, as well as scope the bores from the sump to make sure they are in good shape. Any good Porsche indy can do this. Key word being Porsche. Bore scoring is a slow death that can occur with any modern 911, boxster and cayman from the 986 to the 996 to the 991. Don't know yet if it has afflicted any 992s as of yet. It seems to be easily preventable if you run good oil and keep it fresh by changing it often. Some recommend 2x a year other recomend every 5k miles. Keep you fuel injectors clean and fresh, as well as use proper start up procedures and driving procedures as its warming up. Bad oil and the lack of sufficient lubrication doesn't help the situation. The catastrophic death issues you mentions are very easily preventable. No need to loose any sleep. (1) Where applicable, replace the oem ims with a better one to mitigate imsb failure. (2) Replace the oem AOS with a better one to mitigate AOS failure that can lead to hydrolock and intermix. (3) Keep your water pump fresh to prevent a blade bit from breaking off into your cooling system and lodging in the engine which creates heat and head/cylinder cracking. Pretty easy stuff to do to keep the M96 engine running strong. Problem is many previous owners didn't do it because they weren't planning on owning the car for long, or didn't know any better, or didn't want to spend the money (cheap). Probably a few other reasons as well. Hence the bore scoring, imsb failure, AOS hydralock and intermix failure, water pump and head,cylinder cracking failure. Get a 996, you won't regret it. I have had mine for 22 years and have no plans on ever getting rid of it. Just make sure you get service records and perform a robust PPI with borescope to confirm its condition.

You can spend 2x or 3x on a 997 or 991, or buy a 996 and just invest the different to help pay for a future massive engine repair. The likely hood your investment will go up is almost certain, whereas the likelihood your 996 will need a new engine is very low. Said future massive engine repair is not a guarantee, although if you take a 20 year old car and drive it for 20 years, sooner or later, it�s likely to need a refresh. But by that time, the 996�s value will have doubled to help offset rising rebuild costs. Note: There many who just roll the dice and don�t proactively replace the IMSB, water pump, any of that. I�d wager more than 80% of those cars just work fine without any issues. It is still technically possible to have catastrophic engine failure or transmission failure on any 911 after the 996. Some have bore scoring, and some just grenade after 900 miles without any warning. I don�t believe most of the issues are caused by owner failure and long oil changes, although frequent oil changes seem to resonate with the 996 crowd. Glenn has 62 track days on his 996 and his car always has clean oil and no scoring. If you are really super worried, the 99�s seem to have less scoring, double-row bearing, and the head crack issue due to potential manufacturing casting issues would have all surfaced by now.

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What year?

OP - Marv is right. 20 year old car takes work. If I were to buy a 996 today, I’d buy a turbo. I love my C2, but it took me a good bit of money and time to get everything mostly dependable. The turbo is still easy to work on. Basically the same parts bin. Reliable power pack. Best performance value outside of C7 Corvette CS/Z51. And it is a magnificent Porsche.

Amen brother. 86 track days on the 3.6. Probably will do 2-4 a year going forward. It's just great to get the 996 out on the track. Still no bore scoring and excellent oil tests. Someday I will get an engine rebuild to squeeze out a little more power from the engine. But until then, I keep changing my oil.

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In fairness to the OP, who may or may not know this -- you spend a great deal of time and $ on preventative maintenance. Which is a very good thing, and which OP would do well to look for in any prospective purchase. You want to do as much as you can to vet the previous owners whenever you shop for 996/7 986/7 vintage cars.

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I was actually looking at 987s for the exact same amount. The C4 I was looking at was an 01.

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I get a lot of the issues can be mitigated by routinlely replace said parts but it just seems like the stories of the instant fast death requiring top and bottom end rebuild are more prevalent with this car. That's what concerns me. Slow wearing out of components are not a big deal. Dropping a valve seat or crack a head 'just cause' is more what concerned me. It's stories like this . That have me concerned. Someone did everything right and it still happened. Obviously there are other stories and euqally, like I said earlier, no one creates a post about an uneventful drive.

I figured I should chime in as well. I have a channel dedicated to these cars and I can tell you that they're one of the easiest cars to work on in general. They're just expensive to maintain because some/all of the interior was made cheaply and isn't holding up to time. However, since the 996 share a lot of the same parts as the 986 Boxster, they're cheaper than any other 911. That being said, if you buy one, you're better off buying a higher mileage car because either the IMS and bore scoring have been addressed OR they're part of the lucky 89% of all 996 owners and have had a worry-free ownership with them.

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Dont kid yourself. Pretty much the same issues with all of the m96/m97 engines. Regarding bore scoring, aos failure, oil starvation, etc. Don't confuse the volume of activity in the 996 forum with the lesser activity in other forums to mean that the same issues don't exist. Sure, there are exceptions to the rule with varying model years with dual row versus single row IMSB, but the issues exist. We get alot of eyeball traffic here on the 996 forum from 986, 987 and 997 owners looking for prevention, procedures and solutions because they know we are actively debating the issues. Look at my suggestions a few posts ago as a general road map for any M9x engine to help mitigate the big issues that we always debate. Plenty of other things you can do to mitigate the smaller issues.

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which AOS and water pump do you recommend?

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The oem water pump makes the most sense. I would replace it every 5-7 years to be safe. For the AOS I would consider the UAOS track version even if you dont track the car. I have gone thru 2 oem AOS failures, one Motorsports AOS and am now using the UAOS track version which eliminates running coolant thru the aos which mitigates the risk of intermix. It has a diaphragm that's 2x the thickness of the motorsports aos. Can handle running an extra 1qt of oil over full for the track or canyon carving, or if you are ever worried that you overfilled the oil, the track drain flows back to the sump at a faster rate than the Motorsports aos which mitigates the risk of hydrolock, and it takes 5 min to change the diaphragm versus having to lower the engine to replace the oem aos and Motorsports aos which ends up saving you quite a few bucks.

As someone who has owned a 986 S and a 996 I can see it being a tough decision, though personally, while I love my 996, I'd probably go with the 987.2. While I wouldn't assume that the engine in a 987.2 is going to be bullet proof by any stretch, but it's going to be newer and a little better in some key areas, not the least of which would be handling. While those crazy Germans have engineered the hell out of making a rear engine car handle amazingly, I do think that the mid engine layout is just a bit better, but I'm sure that one is up for debate. That said I would go into either choice knowing there are going to be things that will pop up, and some of them could be quite bad. Sadly no matter what used sports car you buy there is always a chance for something horrible to go wrong. With the 996 in particular the issues of the IMS and bore scoring are well documented and constantly talked about because when things go bad people are more likely to talk about them then when things just work like they should. And there are many other failure points as well, some more common than others, and as time marches on stuff will just happen. I think it's about finding the balance between being aware of what can happen, preventative maintenance, and your tolerance for the risks.

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Marvin say, "Is dat B-ran? The dude dat waz runnin' the H2O gasoline? Where he b-running to lately?"

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I'm back baby!!! And holy cats B3 (didn't recognize the new look and name at first), I almost totally forgot about the H20 gasoline debacle! haha! Crikey that was a long time ago wasn't it?

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No question. Mid engine handles better than rear engine on the track and canyons. i have driven plenty of 986, 987, 981, 996, 997, 991, 992 on the track and am impressed by all. Just a different feel, space, size, level of technology and power with each. No wrong or right answer. Just comes down to what Porsche model you are looking for. After chasing around a swarm of GT4s this season, no question I would love to have one. I just don't want the service costs after they go off of warranty. The good thing about owning a 996 for 22 years is you know what will go wrong and prevent/fix it for a reasonable price.

You're talking about buying a 911 for $22k. There's a reason you can go out and get a top of the line (in early 2000s), premium, sports car capable of track driving for such a low price and that is because there is some risk associated with it. I bought a high mileage C4S and absolutely LOVED the car. Some people have had the opposite experience. In simple terms you can buy one at a tremendous value and maybe have the expense of a rebuild... or you can spend the money up front and buy a newer (or brand new) 911. In terms of overall cost of ownership (when taking resale into account) I would say the 911 will beat the 987 every single day.

All the folks on here talking about having to spend thousands on preventative maintenance and wear items, such as interior, hoses, rubber, etc. That�s not me or my car. The rubber on my car is awesome, and the interior still looks new. My buddy just bought a 70k-mile 1966 Corvette Stingray that has 20 yr old tires that look new. I�m serious, I couldn�t believe the date code on those tires. He�s replacing them anyway, but still. Don�t underestimate the value of a car used in a good climate and kept in a garage. This goes for any car, not just a 996. The sweet spot for a used car is one driven on clear, clean weekends, maybe 50 miles every weekend for 20 years, on average. That would include long cycle startups, to temp driving and cruising, and repeat use to keep the car healthy.

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The day you set FOOT in a 911, Charlie! haha

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My comments regarding the 996 option: 1) Only get a C4 if you really need AWD, the C2 is a better car to drive (I've owned both, vastly prefer the C2). 2) The early 996.1's with the dual-row IMS are less likely to have issues (at some point in, mid 2000's approximately, they switch from the dual-row to single row in the 3.4 engines, the 996.2 has larger displacement (3.6) with the single-row IMS).

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This. It kinda implies a 1 owner car. Maintenance records and an owner who cares for all his/her possessions in the same manner would be nice. The car is out there.

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I've seen you post this multiple times - but you are just going on anecdotal evidence by seemingly 1 data point - yours. As far as I can tell, there has yet to be a definitive answer as to the exact cause of bore scoring. I've read numerous posts by Raby, Hartech, and others over the years. There's speculation, but never an exact answer. From my recollection, some of the possibilities that have been stated are driving in cold weather, driving under 3K RPMs, leaky fuel injectors, over heating from poor cooling system design, low quality gas, or higher ethanol in gas. So saying it's gives false hope to a potential buyer - especially since it's impossible to buy this car new and do those things from the start. While that is good advice in general, saying it prevents bore scoring is not, IMO.

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I hear you. Unless each of us want to get in the 996 industry full time (i dont), all we can do is ask questions and listen to what the companies that rebuild engines and provide machining and parts tell us. It comes down to whether you want to believe what they tell us or not as to what they are seeing regarding bore scoring and engine failures, as well as what they recommend for procedures model by model. No question, there is a big difference between someone that has owned their 996 since day one and was able to control the service and procedures performed, and someone who is in the market to buy a used one. Lets face it, when buying a used car, you are buying the collective actions of previous owners. And those actions can't be reversed, no matter how many oil changes or fuel injectors refreshes you do going forward. Which is why obtaining the service records, a comprehensive PPI that includes dropping the sump to see what's inside w/ a borescope, as well as oil test is are so important. While it doesn't eliminate all the risk of buying a used 996, it certainly helps to identify where the potential risk is.

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Now that's the best advice one can give. It's also what I didn't do, lol. I fell in love with my 996 the moment I laid eyes on her. No paperwork, but I did get a PPI, just not a thorough one. In fact, when I did my research, bore scoring wasn't quite the focus it is now. Live and learn.

As someone who is suppose to be picking up his 3rd P car this Friday...and 1st 911 996...just do it :-D. I've rationalized that the worst thing that can happen is financial ruin, the best case scenario is that it raises in value like p-cars from the past, and most likely scenario would be somewhere in-between. Basically, you can't afford not to buy one :-)

Any motor will have one issue or another. I'm a firm believer that most engines are a lot more reliable than the internet gives them credit for where all the issues are concentrated. Everyone thinks that every early EA888 (VW/Audi 2.0T) will have their timing chain tensioner go bad. Yes, there are plenty of instances but there are even more engines that are still driving along happily with over 150k miles on them. Every B6 S4 V8 is being condemned for timing chain guide issues as soon as it hits 100k miles. It is an issue but I also know plenty of these engines that are still working fine at high mileage because the owner lets it warm up before getting on it and changes the oil regularly. The issue with European engines in the US is that these engines are usually built with European "**** retentiveness" in mind. Most Europeans (at least in Switzerland, Germany, etc.) buy their cars and own them for a long period of time and they service their cars religiously. In the US most owners want a new car every few years, they might skip a service or two or head to Jiffy Lube quick. If you service these cars like they are designed to be service they will last a long time, if you service them like an old Pontiac Grand Am you will have issues. I've serviced my VWs and Audis by the book these last 20 years and never had a single issue while others claim that the check engine light on a VW is always on. In short, if you buy a well maintained 996 and continue to maintain it and stay on top of it via oil analysis you should be fine.

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Yep, i was drawn to the 996 in 2002 and had to have one. Still feel the same way. Funny thing is I never knew that bore scoring was an issue until I joined Rennlist in 2019. I was a track rat that paid attention to mitigating all of the sudden "catastrophic" risks over the years, but bore scoring never came up on the radar because no one that I can remember ever lost their M96 on the track as a result of borescoring. It was always IMSB, oil starvation, AOS hydrolock or overheating, so that's where we focused our attention on mitigating. Looking back 22 years, i drove the car on the track and street, never babied it, but didn't beat the hell out of it either. Just kept the parts fresh on a service schedule and changed the oil on average every 500-700 miles. Seemed to work well up to this point.

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Do yourself a favor, do enjoy the wonderful chassis of the 996, enjoy its outstanding handling, feel and aplomb, but do it in a 996TT or 996 GT. Enjoy the beauty of its body and aerodynamic design in a 996TT with one of the best engines ever built. Its a glorious car and can be found at a very reasonable price point. Pay more upfront and enjoy much more power to keep up with modern sports cars, better suspension, better brakes, beautiful aerodynamic body, and maybe the best engine to ever be designed by anyone ... The experts all say by 100k ALL 96m blocks have tappered way out of round cylinders. The one I measured at 60k was less than .001" from being over spec for taper/out of round. Thats at 60k miles. And thats using the .0035" figure Charles gave us a few months ago. many other engines have .002" max out of round taper limit spec. Defective loco-sil block structure. All NA 996 have this, all of them. depending on how bad the out of round is will determine how bad the car runs. Excess Out of round and tapper are the harbinger of cyl failure/bore score. Make no mistake, plenty of 996 are running around driving fine with slightly over spec out of round and taper. That doesn't make it mechanically right or good for the engine. Ring seal, power output, noise, oil burning, etc, factor into this at some point. Cleaning up/deglazing the cylinders and installing new pistons/rings for an economical rebuild is not something this engine can ever do correctly... Avoid the possibility of a catastrophic engine failure and the ridiculously expensive rebuild and all the needed diabolical tools you'll need to do the rebuild, get a 996TT. Just look at our forums front page. You'll find a new catastrophic engine failure or 2 or 3 there depending on the week. This last week we had an interesting tell all from a new forum member on his 3rd engine. His second engine he rebuilt himself, and it failed with a thrown broken rod. Refreshingly the member explained it was his fault the rod spun because he failed to install the piston pin/circlips correctly on that piston. Its no wonder, as the piston pin install procedure is one of the most convoluted worst I've ever come across in my many decades and hundreds of engines I've built. And unfortunately the compromise between bean counters and engineers didn't stop there. Lets talk about the 996 engine. it was designed at a very bad time in Porsche history. Financially strapped Porsche was trying to pull themselves out of the hole. That put the bean counters in charge of engine design instead of the talented Porsche engineers that are probably the most capable engine designers in the world. So engineers had to compromise the engine design to satisfy the bean counters. Instead of the usual no expense spared philosophy of Porsche engine builders, now they must come up with a way to make a powerful for the times, lightweight, economical to mass produce engine. And the bean counters did pull them out of the hole with the 996/986, at owners future expense. So now we get an engine with a convoluted complicated timing chain system because the bean counters needed 1 head casting (instead of a left and right) for both banks,, all to cut cost. Then here comes the crank carrier thats also suppose to cut cost but is a problem to line bore and still correctly line up with the block half's, leaving the RMS problematic. Then we got loco-sil block structure failure, sometimes way before 50k miles.... Not even going to talk about an imsb failure or valve seats dropping out or head cracking, bearing oil starvation, rod bolt failure, or ETC>>> That being said, I've owned 8 Porsche in the past, and currently own a 996.1 & 996.2, one 6speed & 1 tip. I love them both with 33,000 & 37,000 miles on them. They run good so far. My cost for these cars was so ridiculously low I won't even say it. Thats the only way its worth it to me to own a M996. And If i still own them when the time comes for a rebuild, I'll do a engine swap to a more reliable, powerful, cheaper/easy to rebuild not defective structure engine. And be overjoyed to get rid of the M96 defective engine all while still not being upside down on their value.... JMO

JMO, Mike, GC996, Merlot, et al. Thanks for taking the time to answer my concerns and questions. I've made my decision. I'll let you all know what it was when it hopefully shows up in my Garage at the end of the month. Thanks again.

Buying a 996 is like joining a country club. There's the initial membership cost followed by monthly dues and an occasional "special assessment". Best of luck with whatever choice you've made.

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Probably the best analogy ever said!

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Excellent post, thank you 🙏

Well, one thing is for certain, opinions are all over the place...lol .. just like they were 24 years ago.....

I noticed your original post stated something about the plus of 4 seats in a 996. That slightly factored into my reasoning when buying my 996 - "Hey, the kids can jam in the back!" After owning the car now for 5 years I can honestly count the number of times all 4 of us went for a drive in it together. And, even when we did, I must admit I had some intrusive thoughts about what would happen to my little ones in the back if a serious rear-end accident occured...

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The seats make a really nice shelf, when folded down, for my Shiba to lie on, with added storage underneath!

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I remember it like it was yesterday. Absolutely fantastic car and I miss it. With little kids and essentially zero spare time, I don't miss maintenance though. For now, I'm pretty happy in my Tesla - and I don't think I'll ever go back to ICE for a daily driver... but I definitely plan on getting either another 911 (or Ferrari to give that a shot) at some point down the road as a weekend car to take the track from time to time.