strange oil pressure after new AOS install

so got my 996 3.4 back from my indy today; installed new AOS and plumbing and fixed some vacuum leaks via smoke test which was great. Also replaced bank 1 actuator mechanism (complete) and plastic chain sliders on bank 2 actuator as it needed to be done to get rid of the error codes and address wear and tear. Driving home I had some very strange observations on oil pressure. My oil pressure before this service was always healthy tonight I saw that I couldn't get more than 3 bar on the way home regardless of RPM and when I did rise aboe 3 bar it would move around eratically between 3.5 and 3 bar almost like I was entering a high g corner - my oil is fresh ( < 2 weeks old) (10w40 Amsoil) When I bring the car to a stop and rev the engine to 5000 rpm - aka the "5000 rpm oil pressure test..." I saw 3.7 BAR and it was warm tonight and that's good pressure for my 3.4 engine. when I accelerate in first gear to 5000 rpm I see 3.5 bar which is healthy (again on a warmed up motor with over 30 min run time on it) when I go into 2nd or 3rd gear and give it the beans it doesn't go much beyond 3.1 BAR and as I approach redline I even lose pressure to 3 bar and as low as 2.9 BAR... !! it sure is puzzling me what went wrong here or if its an oil pressure sender unit that went bad during the course of the service but I NEVER had these issues before the above work was done any ideas on the puzzle here?

Are you down oil on either the gauge or oil dipstick?

no

Weird. Curious what the Indy�s response will be.

hoping it's an oil pressure sender unit - but who knows - very strange symptoms - but the car does feel really good and way more responsive though with the new parts in there and elimination of vacuum leaks so we'll see but curious if anybody who has done AOS has any similar accounts?

I don’t think the oil pressure sensors are terribly accurate at the best of times. You’re talking about a swing of .6 bar. Jumping also seems to be a common feature. When mine failed, it jumped dramatically....like 3-4 bar delta or more. Enough that it even triggered a CEL and warning light. New sensor fixed it. They are relatively cheap and easy to replace. I’d probably risk throwing parts at it in this case personally, but I’m not an expert.

we are going to replace the sensor as that should be treated as a service item and it's long overdue but who knows if that will fix it... it's a starting point

The sensor dies ... all the time.

replaced the sensor - no dice also seeing only 4.1 bar on a cold morning start... hmm this is a clue - it's usually pegged above 5

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Check the oil pressure with a manual gauge, there is a port on the bank 1 head that is the same pressures as the bank 2 head factory sensor port. If the manual gauge doesn't correspond to the factory gauge, then your dash gauge if failing. If both pressures on on bank 1 manual, and bank 2 factory gauge correspond, then you have internal issues with oil pressure.

do I do this test when the car is stationary, moving or both? what do you recommend? I"m also purchasing a new oil filter housing at the recommendation of my indy just in case this is an aggravating factor

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Since your gauge only goes to 4.1 bar on cold start, I would do the manual gauge test at cold start to see what is shows..

Maybe oil pressure relief valve. It’s cheap and easy to replace to rule it out.

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do you mean the piston and spring located at the back of the engine accessible from underneath the car?

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Yup.

I replaced the piston and spring last year and immediately saw 1/2 BAR pressure increase! also the car seemed to run cooler.... so I'm really trying to figure out what the hell my indy did in the 2 weeks he had the car.... He wants to charge me for a pressure test but I feel it's in my best interest to have another shop do the pressure test to get a 2nd opinion so to speak I also picked up some washers tonight to try to install under the spring in the piston to increase the pressure of the spring and see if that has a +ve effect on oil pressure Ideally I'd like an oil pressure gauge installed or run to the cockpit so I can test it when the car is moving.... appreciate all your suggestions guys! thanks

I'm not sure I would trust myself with washers, I'm paranoid enough about the oil system, but, I wouldn't let that dissuade you - I would probably just swap them out again with new parts. Oil pressure gauges are cheap - I have not looked specifically at setting up a discrete gauge in the cockpit and what you would need for a sender (mine is plumbed in at the filter housing) but it can't be very difficult and I know just the guy who can probably tell you exactly what you need...Hint... His name begins with a SK and ends with IP Otherwise, a competent shop should be able to get you sorted for a minimal investment... Hopefully if you go that route, you find out the factory gauge blows, your pressure is fine... and you have a legit gauge going forward...win / win Good luck my North of the Boarder Amigo !

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right on zbomb! thx so re the washers they would be right right on the shaft where they could elevate the spring - I don't see any harm in that given it's well lubricated and under pressure - you could periodically inspect it to see how it was but my indy told me to try this as they use to do this on 911's of past

Wild guess.. but here goes.... You might have some grunge in the oil relief valve, bit of carbon who knows.. and its hanging the piston up. I'd remove it carefully and catch the part and oil in a microfiber cloth. The check it like an oil filter.. Look carefully up the passage for the piston for scoring or buildup. This used to be fairly common on Air cooled VW's that have the same setup as well. Since your mechanic replaced some internal parts it may have shed a bit of grunge like carbon or plastic..

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When I add the washer tomorrow I will clean the top of that inner space out with a bunch of pipe cleaners and take a look inside with a bright light thx for the tip

A nylon gun chamber brush works well and wont mar anything just take the piston to a sporting good store and match the brush size up ,,, don't use bronze or stainless brushes that would be bad! They are like 4 bucks.. They also sell a swab for a shotgun that might match and its soft and made for cleaning a shiny smooth shotgun barrel without hurting it, on shotguns that cost as much as a 996 engine.....

Update adding washer didn't do much to solve the overall situation - saw a 1/2 BAR increase only on morning COLD START - drove around and same symptoms

When diagnosing an unusual scenario, it's best to eliminate possibilities by half (50%) with each test. Stop *****-footing around and test the actual oil pressure with a manual gauge. This will eliminate half (50%) of the possibilities and tell you which test/check to do next.

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yes agreed - planning to do this hopefully next week sometime I know a few local shops I can call to have this done - I guess I should remove the washer from the bottom of the spring before doing this test?

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When working properly, (spring not weak/broken and piston not stuck) the by-pass valve controls the "maximum pressure" and doesn't effect any other pressures. So depending on what your maximum pressure is, and what maximum pressure you want, the washer can be left in or taken out. I would not have the washer in there.

I�m in the same boat as the OP. I�m not 100% certain, but I�m fairly confident I was getting 5 bar at cold start before replacing the AOS. Now it takes a few seconds to move from 0 and then only goes a little above 3.75 - 4 bar. With a warm engine it stays around 3 bar when above 3k RPM. I have the updated spring kit arriving tomorrow, so hopefully that will sort it out. if not it�s off to the Porsche Specialist for a pressure check.

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Very interesting Tom - wondering what the relationship is between AOS and oil pressure overall - the new spring and piston should be good for 1/2 BAR ... What pressure are you seeing @ 5000 rpm in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears?

I have seen strange electrical issues happen after the engine was lowered/removed. Most symptoms are usually alternator charging voltage is low, or cranking speed is low. These can be cause by the ground strap from the bank 2 head to chassis is failing/compromised. Some people have installed and extra 4 guage ground cable from the lower alternator bolt to the motor mount bolt, and improved the overall electrical system. Since the oil pressure gauge uses the engine ground as a path for current to ground, it can be effected as well. This could be something to keep in mind AFTER the actual oil pressure is tested with a manual gauge and verified to be good or bad.

ok we'll definitely keep that in mind - thinking of throwing some inexpensive castrol 50 weight oil in there today and see what the pressure profile reads like - maybe this will provide more clues until I can schedule a pressure test....

so today I replaced the oil with castrol 5W50 which is known to increase oil pressure and drove around a bit today... what's alarming is when the coolant temps reach 95C (which is no big deal at all) I'm getting max 3 BAR @ 5000 rpm and beyond (at stationary position (zero MPH) reving the engine and also accelerating in first gear_) ... and when I accelerate in 2nd and 3rd or 4th gear and hit 5-6000 RPM I should see pressures going UP but... instead... pressure goes down by 1/8 BAR - this never use to happen at all before the service - this completely goes against anything I understand about engines and oil pressure - perhaps this is another clue as to what is causing this after my recent work...

My 2-cents is that until you measure the actual pressure, all other changes are just confusing yourself. If the actual gauge/sensor is bad, then all your testing, parts, new oil, etc. will never make sense, and you will never know what's changing, why, and in what way. You're using the gauge to evaluate your testing, but the gauge itself may be wrong.

Just so you guys know, My OP gauge was also not reading about 3.5 bar either on cold start-up or any other time. Thought it was due to a big air bubble in the vinyl silver factory overlay that had just poped up over the last week or so when it got so hot here. I knew the oil pressure was fine, so I pulled the dash and smashed the air bubble out of the vinyl overlay then re-tested, still wouldn't go above 3.5. So I replaced the sender with a new one I had, still stays under 3.5 bar no matter what. Tested the voltage at the sender from the dash, 7.3 volts as it should be. So then I tested the actual oil pressure as I have suggested to you guys that are having the same problem, My oil pressure tested as expected and is just fine (see this test thread I did also for you guys https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...e-testing.html ) Here is a picture below showing my oil pressure at 92psi and the dash reading only 3.5 bar, so I have a bad dash unit, oh boy....

Picture showing the actual oil pressure at the head on bank 1 at 92psi , and the dash gauge showing 3.4 bar. This is WAY off !!! The dash gauge is correct at 1 bar and up to 2 bar is pretty close , but above that is WAY OFF ... This is with a brand new sending unit.. Another way to test is with a DVOM and a rheostat. Disconnect the gauge wire at the sender, with engine off test the OHMs from sender post to engine case, should be about 10 ohms. Then start engine cold, the reading should be about 180 ohms .. Nest use a rheostat set at 10 ohms and connect to gauge wire and ground, Gauge should read 0 bar, then set rheostat to 180 ohms, gauge should read 5 bar, then set rheostat to 95 ohms, gauge should read 2.5 bar... Hope this help you guys solve your oil pressure gauge problems, (it has nothing to do with the AOS)..

Thanks for the instructions Skip. I will test the pressure in a bit. I had previously swapped the entire cluster before along with the sending unit, and had the same results. Now, I don't know how well that gauge worked in its previous chassis, but I can test that with another cluster from a car that I know to be working properly. The benefits of having a fleet of 996 at your disposal. I've not looked at my car again since replacing the spring with the updated model as recommended. The reason it is sitting idle is that I happened to look at the oil that came out during the swap (much more than I intended, but that's another story) I thought I noticed a glittery appearance in the container. So it's sitting until I get a test kit and results back. I would be really bummed if there were some metal showing up so suddenly. I had done an oil analysis before I started adding parts for track duty, 2qt sump, UAOS, etc., and it was a great report. That was at most 500 miles ago. I have done a total of 4 sessions at no more than 6/10 pace with fresh fill of XP 9.

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Cut the filter open - if there's an issue, thats where to find it. ETA... Why people don't just put standalone oil pressure gauges using modern sensors in their cars is completely beyond me, especially in a car thats driven hard. Give me RPM and Oil P and I'll give back all the other gauges.

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Yep. I will once I drain it fully. I need to buy one of those cutters though, the car came with the spin on.

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You don't have to fully drain it, you'll only lose what's in the filter and the cooler... Pull, cut and inspect and refill the new one, add a splash in the fill. I inspect the filter after each event and thats what I do if not changing the oil which is generally done every other event for me. Amazon Amazon

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Fingers crossed for you !! It only takes a few seconds for things to go south in hurry. Maybe the Porsche Gods will smile on you...The pressure test will tell you..

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Right?!! on the track this helps large - I always used my gauge to know when to back off when the oil got too hot... it will show up in the pressure reading... 3 BAR and slightly below that I would initiate a cooldown lap and gain back at least 0.5 BAR telling me the oil is in range again - usually happens toward end of the session - and this was with the gauge on the cluster -

so just got back from another shop today - after the symptoms I've described the porsche certified tech at this place believes it could possibly be too much silicon could have been used to seal the cam covers and that silicon is jamming some of the oil passage ways in the cam cover. He will be taking off the passenger side cam cover to inspect to see if this is indeed the problem. If it is then the drivers side cam cover needs to come off for the same inspection and clean-up.

They should really pull the pan and check the pick up screens first. Any left over material from that area would make it to the pan first and then restrict flow to the pump. Imho it would be a waste if money if the screens r clear.

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the porsche tech indicated the oil galleys in the cam cover may be clogged with silictone resulting in pressure drop - dropping the pan may be a next step - I will mention it to him.

So - did the shop confirm actual pressure matches what you�re seeing on the gauge ?

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No not yet - based on the symptoms before all the work and immediately after his reasoning was to look at the passenger side cam cover to inspect for silicone contamination in the cam cover oil pathways. I also changed to a 50W oil and didn't see higher pressures... it's funny how my gauge was accurate before the work and how it appears to be wonky (only in certain situations I might add) so I believe the tech is on the right track... although an oil pressure test may be in the mix as well; the tech is a certified master porsche technician with a 996 of his own

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thats is a possibility, u do have to be pretty careful in the sealing application for those areas. Maybe skip, porschetech3, can comment. Im not well versed on at what point that sender reads the pressure. Pre or post cams? I would think if a manual gauge was hooked to both sides and the readings were identical the issue would be in the pan or lower then the head? That is if u didnt clog up the passages identically on both sides. Either way good luck and i hope the diagnostic bill doesnt wipe u out.

I don’t really understand all the time and effort without confirming gauge accuracy - it’s an often talked about point of intermittent to complete failure. If you’re dealing with a tech familiar with 996’s he should know this. I would not spend $1 on anything, be it parts or labor before confirming gauge accuracy.

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I can certainly ask him about this but I believe our conversation on symptons, the test drive where he drove my car with me and observed oil pressure behavior led him to believe the culprit could be the oil pathways on the cam cover that closest to the oil pressure sensor - hence the erratic oil pressure readings; it's important to remember the full story here - before all this service I had no oil pressure reading issues at all- none zero, zilch.... and then when I got the car back I noticed this mess started... .

@ De Jeeper : The oil pressure sender is in the valve cover before the pressure goes to the cam bearings. Red circle to oil pressure sender . Purple circles are the oil drains from rear cam bearings. You do have to be careful not to block the return drains (purple), BUT the oil pressure to the sender (red) goes through the hollow dial pin, and you would have to be VERY VERY MESSY to get that stopped up. I don't think that will be the issue here. I would go straight to the manual oil pressure gauge test. LIke Zbomb said, I wouldn't waist a dime until that was done. If the Technician/shop is doing it for no charge, or because they think they might be responsible since they were just in there, then whatever...... My recommended diagnostic fault tree would look something like this. 1. test oil pressure with manual gauge on bank 1 (easiest to access) .A.. if oil pressure test good at bank 1, smile then go to step 2 or skip to step 4 .B. if oil pressure test bad at bank 1, then test at bank 2 2. test oil pressure at bank 2 .A . if oil pressure test good go to step 4 .B. if oil pressure test bad go to step 3 3. pull oil pan/sump and check for stopped up screen .A if not stopped up, you're in deep S**t ..call the bank and check your balance .B . if stopped up, clean screen and retest 4 test oil pressure sender .A if sender test good go to step 5 .B. if sender test bad, replace sender and re-test 5. test dash gauge .A ..if dash gauge test bad, replace and re-test Hope this helps !!

thx Porschetech3 - enlightening; I will share this with my tech- we believe the mess with the silicon could be on the 2 purple points - and yes you'd have to be a complete f**up to mess up the red circle area... but the 2 purple points I can definitely see mistakes happening there. Another clue here is there was no oil pressure anomalies before *any* of this service - zip zero zilch - and the engine was never dropped - the exhaust was removed to access the areas and perform the work...

With this new and more detailed info ( gauge going to 5 bar cold, and dropping on acceleration at higher RPM) I can do a better job at "internat diagnosis" ...lol I wouldn't worry about the silicone stopping up the drain back passages (purple) ...If any one of these are stopped up, it will blow the rubber cam plug out of the head. Seen this many times after someone has F**ked this up. It CAN'T cause anything else. Given your symptoms, I would go straight to removing the sump plate and checking for silicone/obstruction of the oil pump pick-up screens... If nothing found here, then go back to step 1 and test with manual gauge !!!

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ok but if they are mildly clogged it may let some oil through at low pressure but impede the flow at high rpm... is this a possibility... I doubt it's complete cloggage as the cam plug would have blown out of the head as you say.... so maybe it's partical silicone impeding flow when I really get on it... ?

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Nope, It CAN'T effect your oil pressure readings. If partially blocked/impeding the drain flow, it will just raise the "velocity/speed" of the drain flow until the outlet pressure is the same as the inlet pressure to the rear bearing, at which point it will blow out the rubber cam plug. If you wanted to get Super-Technical, it would also" slightly" RAISE the overall oil pressure while increasing temp of the rear cam bearing.

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interesting note on the temp - I'm seeing increased temps as a results of all the service I did that I never had before... last year when I installed the spring and piston - pressures where better and the temp creep was virtually eliminated! really happy about that.. but the other thing besides weird pressure is how the temp creeps up faster than before now... and it only subsides when I get on the highway @ 75 MPH +++ so were gonna pull the pan as well...

Not good news on my motor. Pulled the filter and found a good bit of ferrous material in the filter folds. Have not dropped the sump yet, but I�m going to guess there will be more and likely that my pickup screens are clogged.

Tom, that filter looks crudy, how many miles on that engine, do you have service history, any "overheating" in it's past? I see some hefty sludge/carbon/crud in those pleats.

113k on the motor. I pulled my old filter out of the trash and cut it open now that I have the tool and I can see the same type of debris as the new filter. This is really surprising because the previous report came back with all good indications as I understood it. I�ll follow up with Lake at speed diagnostix to see what he thinks. There was a delay in getting my results and now I�m wondering if I got sent the wrong info by mistake. here is the sump with some non ferrous debris, the old filter and oil analysis.

Yikes - that doesn't looks very normal to me. Maybe someone that knows better can chime in but your UOA number for Moly seems very low and fuel dilution seems pretty high. Wear metals are pretty decent but that's only a 1500 mile sample.

Don't care what the UAO says and to be honest - Not a big UAO guy. The filter does not look good. How many track hours / street miles are on the filter ? ETA -- Here's what I expect my filter to look like after 2-4HRS on track

I would estimate on the filter in the previous post, no more than 500 miles, including 4 20 min sessions on track. the filter before that I�m not sure.

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End of the short road for my usefulness Tom - sorry. If I saw that in my filter, I would try to milk the motor to to the end of the track season doing frequent oil and filter changes and watching the pressure for steep degradation indicating a major opening of clearances. Since you said your pressure is down, coupled with the debris, I think it would be fair to say that process has begun. Good luck man.

Tom, sorry to see what's happened. A lot is going thru my mind right now and just thinking out loud. Just like you, my oil test came back in great shape a couple of weeks ago. But at anytime, something internal can happen. Assuming we do oil tests after every track day and unfold the filter for a look, we may start to see the beginnings of something. But in reality, it may just happen quickly and when we least expect it. The testing will say yes or no, but it won't prevent it, which truly sucks. Be very interested to see what the fragments are. Unfortunately, it looks like you may have the beginning of a new thread.

Tom, Don't give up hope yet, there mite still be some smiles left in that engine !! Test the oil pressure with a manual gauge !! I don't see a ton ferrous metal, I see some light brown plastic (cam pads on 5-chain engines),, a good bit black plastic debris ( from the chain/IMS guides), and some sludge (that engine is no "Spring Chicken" and mite have missed a few oil changes). all to be expected at this point. When in doubt, get accurate test results (manual gauge) ........................

UPDATE: MANUAL OIL PRESSURE RESULTS ARE IN AT COLD START AT IDLE 75 PSI AT 3500 RPM - 90 PSI at 5000 RPM 90 PSI AT 85 celsius (coolant gauge) AT 3500 rpm 61 PSI AT 5000 rpm 65 PSI BETWEEN 95 AND 100 CELSIUS (coolant gauge) IDLE 18 PSI AT 3500 RPM 55 PSI AT 5000 RPM 59 PSI do I have an oil pressure problem?

The cold pressure looks a little low to what I normally see, about 95PSI at idle - but all the other pressures look good to me based on what I see in my setup.

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the interesting thing here is I'm not seeing the hot 5000 rpm pressure on my gauge !!! - could it be the gauge - who knows?. the manual pressure test was done from bank #2 - the same bank that the gauge on the dash cluster is plugged in to.

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what does that mean, not seeing the hot 5k rpm pressure? Is it below that or above?

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sorry should have been more clear -my gauge appears to be UNDER REPORTING the results of the manual pressure test.... that's a assumption as I rely on qualified techs for a real analysis here...

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Did you pull the sump plate and make sure the pick-up screen is not partially blocked?? Come on man... it only takes 10min and very important!! Your idle pressure hot is fine (that's a good sign !! ) , but your high RPM/flow pressures are a little low for 50 weight oil IMHO....(would be acceptable for a low 40 weight like "mobil 1" ) AND YES,, YOUR ELECTRIC GAUGE IS UNDER_REPORTING !!

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the gauge probably can't be trusted - I don't know why my mechanic is such a butthead and doesn't say anything - tells me it's all "NORMAL"

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10mins and some prayers that the locktite you have isn�t hard as a rock and will take forever to run a bead on the sump. on this subject, the LN sump kit gives you a tube of locktite and a regular gasket for the install . Why not just use three regular gaskets?

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Your engine is a bit "loose" IMHO...Is it dead ? NO !!! ......................A little "loose " is BETTER than a little "tight" when it comes to really high RPM/ Track Duty, but not the best thing for longevity. All engines can have different tolerances/clearances from the Factory, and even more so after tens of thousands of miles. You're above the 10psi per 1k rpm "rule of thumb"..... But as an example, my 1999 3.4 with 130k and 5w-50 oil has 92psi on cold start, and 68 psi at 4k rpm warm engine..See tests here.. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...e-testing.html Moral of the story: you don't want the pressure too high, and you don't want the pressure too low, you want it in the middle (or as Goldilocks say's "just right") ..i.e., you definitely want to know "exactly what it is"....and that it is not "dropping in corners" !!

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ok - I did share this with my mechanic

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Your viscosity looks very low... should be no lower than 13.2 - new 40 weight oil of good quality is 14.5 so leaving it in for so long to degrade the viscosity also degrades the HTHS which is what also protects you at the track. The filter looks horrible - nothing normal about that filter - I've been cutting filters open for over 13 years now and I've never seen anything even close to that maybe do a few short interval oil changes - say 1000 miles and inspect the filter at each one and see what comes out... maybe with 3-4 oil short oil changes you can clear out your engine of stuff and see if the situation improves taking off your own filter is quite easy and quick and they are fairly inexpensive

This is so weird. I am experiencing similar problems since i worked on the car. I did the UAOS and while i was in there i swapped a couple items. One of them was the oil pressure sender because it would suddenly fail and then work again. I cleaned the area before I pulled the sender out and swapped the pieces with ease. Once everything was buttoned up when I started the car the first thing i noticed was the highest bar reading i would get was a little over 4 bars. I did a track event as well and the highest reading again was about 4.25. I talked to quadcammer and he told me these senders are a crap shoot sometimes. I will change the oil filter out. I wonder if there is something we are not doing correctly when performing the AOS work?

that is weird - try re-installing the old sender and see if pressure goes back up to where it was before? eliminate the possibility of a faulty new sender?

quick update on my motor health. I did an oil change along with a new oil relief valve kit. Filled it with 9.5 quarts of Driven GP-1 (recommended based on the oil analysis), and went out for a nice drive this afternoon and pressure is back to normal if not a little stronger. I'm wondering if the low pressure was just from the filter being so clogged. I'm going to go another 500 miles and change again to see how the filter looks and do another analysis.

so what does your oil pressure gauge read @ idle and @ 5000 rpm after you've driven the car for 30 min?

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quick video

Good to hear Tom.

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Looks pretty good .. What weight oil is that ???

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20w50 I thought about going back with XP9 so there was one less variable, but this was recommended. I don�t think it can hurt since it will be in there for just a little bit. It was also half the cost.

here is a vid everybody should watch - hard proof of failing under-reporting oil gauges... You Tube

Yep, the accuracy of the dash units is very far from desired. Oil pressure is one of the most important values of an engine, and 996 owners worry about it very much (as they should). But the only way to confirm or deny what the dash gauge says is to do a manual test. Any speculation without a manual test is pretty much useless, ( unless it is an EXTREME fault )

could be - one really needs a qualified porsche mechanic to rule out other causes

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You're very welcome. The only way at present is to replace the cluster. Porsche or Aftermarket does not sell any parts to repair a cluster (except some companies are repairing the LCD's now). So a new cluster is $3k but the mileage can be set to actual mileage (using PIWIS), a used cluster will have a mileage discrepancy. It would be nice if the parts were available to repair them, or just a way to "tune" them for accuracy. They could be "tuned" to read correctly with a manual gauge if someone take the time/effort to break it down.