3.8L Engine Rebuild

Hi All - So I've been lurking for a year or two and particiapated in a few discussions and well, I finally can say I have a reason to be here. I purchased a 2002 C4S that was two previous member's car. The first member had experiences an engine failure at 70K via a dropped valve seat on cylinder 5. Subsequently, he had TuneRS out of FL build him a 3.8L using LN Engineering "Nickies" plus JE pistons. A few other goodies inlcuded a .5 deep sump, ARP rod bolts, low temp thermostat, billet chain tensioner paddle, Fabspeed 200cel X-pipe, and triple-row IMS bearing (yes, LN offered this at one point). The final build made 325 RWHP. He sold the car at 107K to another member who drove it for a few years up to about 114K. Some of you followed the sale of the car here on Rennlist and then saw it was put on hold and eventually sold as a roller to me. The last owner was taking the car to get it's final safety inspection from the DMV when it stalled and CEL appeared. He had it towed to his mechanic who declared the engine a catastrophic failure. The mechanic thought it might be a rod or main bearing based on the noise and codes. Fast forward to me still wanting to buy the car as a roller and taking possesion of it last Tuesday. Just a note of caution. I used Nationwide Auto Transport who had a competitive proce for a cross country closed trailer transport. However, upon recieving the car, I just found that one of the rear control arms was bent (I had specifically asked the to tell the driver NOT to strap the car by the control arm) and I learned from the previous owner's mechanic that the truck driver had started the car even though I had told th ecompany NOT to start the car - UGH.... So here goes my build thread. I'll start with the tear down and what we found.

I'm working on this project with a friend who's specialty is high-performance Subarus (as in he builds 700HP turbo motors) who also worked at a Porsche indy for a while. The first thing we did was pull the filter and cut it open. It honestly looked pretty clean. There weren't any chunks but there was just barely a bit of gold colored glitter, but you really had to look for it. Next we pulled the sump plate and there was more metallic glitter, a mixture of gold and silver, but you really had to look for it. BTW - no big chunks at all.

Once we got a bunch of the accessories and the intake off things began to come clear. It looks like the engine dropped a valve seat on cylinder #5 (how ironic). The seat was partially smashed up and there were bits of sand sized metal in the intake manifold and just a few pieces also in the intake of #6. Here is a photo of the intake. Sorry for th epoor quality, my iphone wouldn't focus down into the hole. You can obviously see the sad-sized debris, but if you look close at the second photo you can see the void on the bottom of the seat where it meets the valve.

Next we found some scratches on one of the cam journals. Can these be polished out or do I need a new camshaft?

Next up was the piston and cylinder damage. It appears that there was only damage to the one cylinder and piston (#5). All the other cylinders all looked good - they still had their crosshatching marks and none appear to have any sort of scoring or scratches from the other debris. What do you think?

Assuming it was bought on the basis that the engine was potentially a total write off and priced accordingly, I'd be thinking I'd bought a bargain. I think I'd still be inclined to pull the engine down entirely to check everythng thoroughly, but be hoping that all it really required was one piston and perhaps a new nickie for that cylinder, and fix up the head. Why did it drop a valve seat? Is that another M96 character trait? Of all the M96 maladies I've read about since buying my car, dropped valve seats did not figure highly. And an inlet seat at that? Anyway, could have been far worse, I reckon you've had a win!

A couple things, even though it's water under the bridge... 1) The guy who started the car is clearly an idiot, but...it would have been a simple task for the shop to disconnect or even remove the battery before the transporter picked the car up... could have saved big potential trouble. 2) As noted by Uber666 it seems you may be looking at an easier fix than you originally thought. 3) Considering the motor already dropped one valve seat, I'd have both heads thoroughly checked by Hoffman ( www.hamheads.com ) to be sure none of the others are loose/ready to drop. 4) I'm sure LN engineering can give you good advice on the damage to the #5 liner and what to do about it (and how it should be done). Good luck - I hope you get it sorted out soon and for a reasonable amount of $

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Hi Uber - Yes, it was purchased as a roller at the appropriate value. I'm hoping that the damage you mentioned is all that happened, but I went into this prepared for it to be a total loss. As to the dropped seat being common, I'm not sure where it ends up on Jake's list of known failures, but it is something you see fromm time to time on the forums.

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Thanks dporto - man, you are so right about disconnecting the battery. I should have thought about that. I was so caught up in getting my dream car out here I lost sight of that precaution. Regardig the heads, Hoffman was the first place I considered, but being I'm on the West coast, does anyone know of any other reputatble shops out here?

Considering some shop "fixed" the head once and it failed i would just pony up and send the heads ti Hoffman.

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I'd still send them to Hoffman!

Len will get your heads shipped, out and back, at a very reasonable rate. Their expertise is with these type of heads and he knows all of the issues and the corrective actions that need to be taken. And you wont have to worry about turn around time, the nikasil cylinder repair will take much more time. If you want the motor to work for a long time do what everyone here is suggesting with regard to the heads and get Jake's rebuild video series (and do everything he says) I know we all sound like a$$holes, telling you to do this and that. But we all want to see you have a successful build and there are very few, proven, routes to follow. Its fun to debate the merits of various approaches and technologies but in the end go with what works.

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2002-2003 996 heads are the worst for loose valve seats.

Found this piece on the floor after cleaning up, but still no large pieces in the sump plate.

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Uber - since you last asked I learned a bit more about dropped seats. Here's a link to an article from Len Hoffman wrote that speaks a bit about it. On a similar note, I was talking with my neighbor who owned his own shop for years and holds multiple SCCA AutoX records in Datsun 510s and he said it's usually from not cooling the car down adequately (especially after track runs) and can also be caused by bad injectors where the mix gets too lean.

Good progress so far. I’m looking forward to see how this one goes.

Yep, valve seat failure is what killed my '02 C4. According to Jake on my thread it seems to be one of the more common failures in 2002 M96s.

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Thanks for the update! Being the owner of a (late) 03 I guess I just add this one to the list of worries.... The great thing is, after frequenting this and other forums I am always pleasantly surprised every time the car starts up perfectly.

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Hey Shawn - yeah, Len Hoffman just said he was seeing more and more of these. Maybe I should get out of the SEO business and start a machining shop. LOL

Interestingly, my 02 996 engine with ~108,000 miles was rebuilt by the PO because of a valve seat failure. I am not sure which cylinder had the failed valve seat. The motor went the full rebuild route with nickies on all 6 cylinders.

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I'll let one of the pros here chime in, but it seems this can be caused by a faulty/worn out injector. As I understand it if it's not performing correctly it can either lean out the engine or cause hot spots. I looked all through the invoices I was provided and while there was a complete rebuild, there is no mention of the injectors being replaced. I know Jake recommends replacing them with new ones whenever replacing the engine.

Same deal with documentation that came with my car.... I have the receipt for the engine rebuild. It mentions new chains and tensioners, bearings, pistons, rod bolts, and "rebuilt block," and re-cut valves and seats. There is no mention of coils, plugs, motor mounts, injectors, or even whether the alternator belt was replaced.

Absolutely agree!

UPDATE: I connected with Len Hoffman about my heads and Charles Navarro of LN Engineering about the cylinder cases and IMS shaft/bearing. How refreshing to get quick responses from both guys who I can only imagine are incredibly busy. Len thinks the damaged head can be repaired. Now I just have to get an estimate on the cost of the repair. Does anyone have any opinions on paying to have the existing head repaired as opposed to buying an already refreshed head or getting a used head and sending it in to get refreshed? Is there any sort of advantage to keeping the original head becuase it mates up better to the cyliner or ???? Charles was very encouraging as well regarding being able to save the bad case half with re-sleaving. I'm going to send in both to get inspected and possibly honed. He recommended going with new pistons as well as they have been updated to newer designs. I'll also send in my IMS shaft to be updated to the IMS solution. Next up is the final disassembly of the crankshaft and cradle.

So it's been years since I tore an engine apart and dealt with camshafts (might have even been high school autoshop 30 years ago...). So can I get some opinions on what I have here? The two exhaust cams look like new, but both intake cams seem to have odd wear points on each lobe. Do I need new ones, can they be machined? Do I just get them polished?

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I would suggest sending your heads to Len for repair. There is no advantage in going with other heads, unless yours can't be repaired. Mating up better to the block is not really a factor. As long as the heads and block are from the same version engine, it shouldn't matter. But why introduce more chances of mix-up by going with an "already refreshed" set of heads? In the end, the costs will be about the same. LN is probably the best choice for block repair (Nickies). There's a thread around here somewhere... Where a guy did a recent engine build using both Hamheads and LN engineering to build a solid foundation for his engine. Look around for something like: the 133,333 mile engine rebuild thread . From what I understand, there's some good information there - as long as you are able to wade through all the off topic business. Oh - do not attempt to build this engine without the Jake Raby video series on the M9X Engine Assembly .

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Don't worry but do be aware. Should your motor ever stall while driving, do not try and restart it! A mistake seen over and over here, causing more ($$) damage.

Here are a few more shots of the wear items. I believe these had about 44K miles on them. Does this look normal?

As I was packing up the heads this evening I discovered a strange wear mark on the inside of the valve cover just opposite the #5 cylinder valves. Can anyone explain how this could have happened? (In case you are just tuning in, I dropped a valve seat on #5).

Do you know if that valve cover is original to the engine? Bc they are machined as a set to the heads from the factory. If they were swapped out you can have that clearance issue happen.

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Hi - no I don't, but, I have a complete book of all receipts and can't find any mention of new covers. However, it seems more like this is related to the valve seat issue I had since the location of the scoring is directly opposite the valves for the affected cylinder.

Could have been a factory quality modification, maybe a protrusion on the cast or something, looks machines more than a wear mark, maybe it's always been there?

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That was my second thought. First is to look for corresponding witness marking on the cam that runs in that area. Unless there is something on the cam or debris being spun by the cam, it looks more like a "clean-up" step at the factory (as you suggest)

So LN Engineering has been super helpful and responsive. I decided to use their shipping option which sends you a professionally manufactured shipping box and then uses their bulk rate for pickup and return back to you. You clean up your cases (or get charged an extra cleaning fee) and then put them in this nice, double walled cardboard box with preformed foam inserts. The case halves fit snug and this method has had zero failures since they started offering it. Seems like a great option to me. Now my fingers are crossed that they can just hone the Bank 1 case and do minimal work to fix the Bank 2 case with the damage.

Very cool! It's great to have resources like LN Engineering and FSI in our community! Wishing you good luck!

Those boxes were the best thing that we've came up with.. Blocks used to get damaged all the time, it's been years since we had any damage using these boxes. Typically we ship 4 blocks at once on a pallet to LN via truck freight. UPS and Fed Ex, murder individual blocks if they aren't in these boxes.

So LN Engineering is starting the repair work on the block. The one badly damaged sleeve will need to be replaced. Luckily, the other half of the case seemed to check out ok and will just be honed. They say it should take about 4 weeks. Oh, and BTW- here�s what cat pee can do to your camshafts. Looks like I�ve got some scotchbrite cleaning in my future.

Scotchbrite? Use the cat. Good enough news about the block!

So we are almost back in action. The engine arrived from EBS Racing and the plan is to tackle the install over the weekend. A big shout out to Don at EBS who built the motor for me and fielded all my numerous questions, and to LN Engineering who re-sleeved the damaged cylinder. To help address a few of the points of failure I went with the UAOS, got the IMS Solution, used a 160 degree thermostat, deep sump pan, new injectors, new valve lifters, replaced heat exchanger, new coolant tank, water pump, replaced the MAF, and rebuilt the heads with new valve seats and springs. Fingers crossed. BTW - When we had to pick the engine up off of the tow truck I couldn�t believe that these blue steel ropes could be used. Apparently each one of these skinny little things can hold about 3000 pounds. No need for chains.

Best of luck!

As I last posted, I decided to wait until the recommended break-in oil arrived. Little did I know that there were other issues to hold me back. Because I�m putting in a fresh engine I decided to put in a fresh transmission mount. I�m glad I did as the original mount�s rubber just crumbled when removing it. Next though was the collar. Getting this out was relatively easy - just a few seconds with a sawzall. However, getting the new one in without the install tool may be a challenge. Anyone have any tricks? I�m going to have to search the forum. The second challenge was the clutch. While the clutch disc itself looked good to me, measured out within spec and only had 20k on it, my friend pointed out that the pressure plate had grooves in about 1/4 of its clamping surface. Combine that with a unmachinable DMF and I was paused once again. So, upon the recommendation of a friend and a couple here on the forum, I decided to get a new DMF (Luk), a stock pressure plate (Sachs) and a high performance disc (Sachs). Just waiting for the DMF to arrive and then I can finish the install. Fingers crossed.

Since u have a few days just borrow/rent the tool from dporto or someone else in the board. Took me about 15 min to install so it was deff worth the money.

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Hi - yes. Might do that. Just sent out a PM to another member asking where he lives. Drporto is on nthe opposite coast, to hoping to find someone closer.

I also rented the tool from dporto. That made it straightforward. I'd be a bit worried about cracking the transmission housing if I tried to be too creative.

OK - so the clutch and flywheel are in. Decided to go with a stock flywheel by LUK, pressure plate by SACHS and upon the advice of PorscheTech3 and another mechanic friend I opted for the high performance SACHS disc that is a bit of an upgrade for our cars and can handle more HP. Tip #1: I'm happy to say that I was able to line everything up and install it with a plastic alignment tool purchased for about $5 at O'reilly. I forget the part number, but if you search the forum, you can find that it's a cross referenced part for an early Ford focus or sommething like that.

So here's an interesting situation. We were draining the old fuel, or at least trying to. The first problem we ran into was after we bridged the relay, nothing happened. We tried multiple times, but the pump wouldn't engage. So then we decided to go straight to the pump and hard wire it. That worked, but the flow of gas was anemic. It pumped out about half a gallon in a relatively steady stream and then spurted and burbled like there was air in the line. The motor was working hard, it sounded like a muted garbage disposal mixed with regular pump sounds. It defiintely wasn't the smooth whirl of a normal pump. So, the pump was barely pumping anything yet I still had almost half a tank of gas left. Now follow me here... the first time the engine broke down it was from a dropped valve seat on cylinder 5 at about 80K, then it dropped another valve seat on cylinder 5 at 114K. In all the records, it doesn't appear that the injectors were ever replace - nor the fuel pump. Now I'm aware of Jake insisting that new injectors are used for engine rebuilds due to the problems with poor spray patterns and consistency causing cylinder/head issues, BUT is it possible that a poor fuel pump could also cause these problems? On a similar thread, how long should a fuel pump last? Do the symptoms sound like a failing fuel pump or possibly something related to it (remember the issue with not being able to jump the relay)? Thanks

Pull of the screw cap and inspect the fuel lines from the lid to the pump. They often split inside the tank, which does reduce both pressure and flow, and can cause lean conditions.

how's the furl filter? I've also read that the fuel pump won't run for the full time unless hooked to the Durametric tool. Not sure if that's true or not!? Just jumped pn your thread as my block had bad scoring and off to LNE for a 4.0 fix and my heads are off to Hoffman this week. Going to be an impatient wait on my behalf for all the parts to return!

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Thanks Prf - i was thinking the same thing. I guess with 114k on the car and the original pump and lines (the seal was still original on the cap) it's just best to replace the pump and lines in the tank. Ugh - another $750... LOL

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Hey - sorry about your engine, but let me know if I can be of any help on your project. So, the 2nd generation of 996s don't have a separate fuel filter, it's integrated into the pump. Not sure about the Durametric thought, I'm mcurious if anyone else has heard this. Thanks

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The 2002 heads are known for loose valve seats from new.

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You can replace the lines without replacing the pump. Make sure you get submersible fuel hose.

Replace the pump. It’s failing and will either leave you stranded when it quits or will not put out enough pressure causing your new rebuild to run lean. Cheap insurance either way.

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Do you know of a way to replace the venturi tube lines (used on the Turbo and AWD models) with submersible hose? I came across one thread in the turbo forum that mentioned doing that instead of using the $350 part from the factory (P/N: 996-620-113-00)

My notes say that either GATES 27093 SUBMERSIBLE FUEL LINE HOSE can be used, or the accordian hoses can be sourced from tiautomotive. pwdrhound wrote "You can get them from TiAutomotive, the manufacturer of Walbro pumps. Various lengths in I.D of 8 or 10mm" I assume that's what you're asking?

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Yes, do you think it's as simple a job as replacing the plastic lines and re-attaching to the hard plastic parts? Seems crazy that Porsche would charge $350 for four plastic fuel lines. I don't have the part out, so I can't see if there is anything mechanical in the part. Thanks for the help.

Yes, it's that simple. The $350 Porsche part includes the "sucking jet pump" as well as the lines, which somewhat explains the price. NB. My comments are based on the 996 Turbo, which should be the same as the 996 C4 or C4S fuel tank & pump.

Thought I'd share an update from last weekend's work. This is the space I had to work in after getting the car dropped off at my house. I've got a steep driveway behind the car that would have been almost impossible to push the car into without at least 4 guys. Gotta say, you feel pretty good using 10 ton jack stands in back!!! Decided to put the engine and tranny in together as a unit. Had a little help bolting in the tranny from a four-legged friend: Engine in (sorry about the bad photo. And I'd love to hear if there are any tricks to getting the AC in. It took us over an hour and the bracket next to it got pretty scratched up. It sure came out easier. Is it just a Rubik's cube and you need just the right angles and turns to get it in properly? Next steps: - torque cross members - install a few more hoses - connect PS lines - replace fuel pump and pick-up lines - fill coolant and bleed - fill oil - start break-in process

Good luck on first start. Please follow proper starting protocol I.e.do not pre fill oil filter etc. Disregard of course if you are already aware.

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Beleive me, I will. I�ve read the RND engine break in protocol about 10 times and have it printed out for referral. I�m the most nervous about the one second starts to build up oil pressure.

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I don't think that people should follow this protocol unless they have an RND engine. When I developed the RND program for SSF Auto Parts, the engines were to be assembled with a very specific engine assembly gel. The oil pump cavity was also filled with a specific lubricant to assist with first- start priming. If an engine that isn't prepped this way uses these protocols, unknown results are a possibility.

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Thanks for the caution Jake. I really appreciate it. It seems the LNE Technical Bulletin on 996 start-up and break-in is essentially the same: 1. New fuel injectors should be used. Fuel filter, if serviceable, must be replaced. If new ones are not available, original ones must be professionally rebuilt. Fuel older than 30 days must be pumped out - old gas kills new engines. 2. Rebuilt engines should be fitted with the following new items: knock sensors, O2 sensors, MAF, AOS and oil fill tubes, oil and coolant fill caps, Genuine Porsche AOS and water pump. The engine must be smoke tested to ensure there are no vacuum leaks that can cause rich operation and damage the engine during break-in. 3. Proper engine oil system priming and break-in is critical. Do not turn over an M96 engine to build oil pressure � excessive cranking will cause rod bearing failure as the oil system will not prime at starter speeds. To prime the engine, start and immediately turn off the engine. Repeat start/stop until the gauge shows at least 2 bar of oil pressure. Once primed, break-in can commence. It is critical to verify fuel trims and AFR as overly rich mixtures during break-in will result in engine damage or failure. 4. Break-in oil should be used for 500-1000 miles, followed by conventional oil for 3000-5000 miles until engine is fully broken in before switching to synthetic oils. Beyond that, the RND guidance refers to two articles on break-in. One for motorcycle engines and one for air cooled engines and both say to run it hard from the beginning. The conflicting things from the article on air-cooled motors reference using synthetic oil to pre-lube the gears and bearings so that it's the SAME motor you will be running in the engine. It also states to remove the sparkplugs and oil pressure switch and crank the engine over. I wasn't planning on doing either of these things. Do you see any conflicts? Or, can you point me toward another reference?

Got all of the connections made last weekend, filled all the fulids, started her up and ran for 20 mins. All that's left to do is bleed the clutch slave cylinder which was replaced. Got a Motive pressure bleeder for that. See attached PDF for some great instructions on how to do it. One issue I ran into was with the IMS Solution external oil line and how it ran so close to the sway bar. I have Tarret GT3 sway bars which are just a couple mm's larger so I didn't think it would be an issue, but as you can see below, unless you think in advance of your clearances with the oild feeder line, it coudl rub up against the bar: So I had to do some research as to how to solve this (thank you to the person that helped out - you know who you are). I was able to fir the bar, measure the clearance, then remove the oil line and reinstall it using red threadlocker to get it to the place it needed to clear the bar. One thought though, it seems that the line itself is about an inch too long. If the line was a bit shorter, it wouldn't bow outward and "push" the line into the sway bar. A shorter line would force the line to bend/mount away from the bar. Anyway, here's how it ended up after messing with it for about an hour. With my finger out of the way it cleared the bar by about an 1/8". So with any luck, we'll go on our maiden voyage tomorrow and thus comes the next dilema - run it hard or baby it....

Since the very beginning the IMS Solution instructions have called out precautions when using larger diameter sway bars. See this link to the advanced technical bulletin on this topic: https://imssolution.com/additional-installation-notes/

Woo Hoo - took her out on her maiden voyage. Did about 100 miles with plenty of engine braking. Love this engine. Can�t wait to really get on it. Thanks to all that helped me along the way. I�m so grateful to have this forum as a resource.

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Outstanding job.. Nothing better than that chill up the spine when a new one lights off!

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Awesome! Congratulations! It's so cool when you get them back together, and they work! Nice job, good attention to detail. good calling in resources when needed. Now drive!

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What do you mean by �fir the bar�? I dont understand how you fixed the issue. I plan to get the Tarett bar soon.

Congratulations on getting it going again!

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It looks fine now. Wrap some old rubber hose around the line and zip tie it on - even if it moves or gets closer to the sway bar, you wont have to worry about it wearing... Good luck with the new engine!

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It's just something you have to be careful with if you have an aftermarket sway bar. There can be an interference issue where the line can rub on the sway bar, so it's important to verify they are not making contact with each other when the car is on the ground. The issue will not be present with the car in the air with the suspension in full droop.

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Sorry, typo... I meant "fit the bar" as in I mounted it up without torquing the bolts and got an idea of the clearance needed.. Here are the measurements I came across for the different bars: GT3 front: 26.7, rear: 20.8 ROW M030: front: 23.6, rear: 19.6 OEM: front: 23.1, rear: 18.5

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Thanks Charles - I'll definitely take a look. BTW - thanks for the help with the block.

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So you just rotated the fitting on ims feed or you did something to the sway bar? Sorry if it is obvious, just trying to understand the �fix�

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I didnt install the ims solution myself and havent given it a lot of inspection on how can be changed. Is it able to be moved around in some way to increase clearance slightly if needed? Is that what he did to gain clearance?

I went out for my second break-in drive today. After about 20 mins (the car temp was at 180) and some spirited downhill twisties with some good engine breaking I threw a CEL. When I got home I used my iCarSoft to see it was P0491 and P0492 "Secondary Air System bank 1 & bank 2" I beleive it's relatively normal to throw some codes when breaking in, but it's tough not to be a bit paranoid. Should I clear these and see if they come up again, or start checking out culprits like vacuum lines, secondary air injection valve, or the air pump? Thoughts?

I would just double check the electrical connections to the change over valves. The sai pump should only kick on at start up, so i doubt its that.

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I unscrewed the line from the fitting, removed the fitting, then reinstalled the fitting with red locktite. Then I reinstalled the line at an angle that yielded more clearance.

I recently got those same two codes after putting my car back together. Simple fix for me, I forgot to plug the electrical connector into the SAI pump, doh. Surprisingly, the car didn't throw a CEL until about 10 miles into my second drive. First drive I put about 35 miles in and no CEL. Plugged SAI back in, cleared codes and problem solved. Hope its an easy fix for you.

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Thanks Moosetaco - I'm hoping that's the issue. Sounds very similar to my issue. I did check yesterday and noticed that the pump was NOT turning on at startup, so I'm going to check the obvious first, plug, fuse, and relay. I'll report back.

The code is set upon deceleration from a higher speed, after time has passed post startup. For instance, I too forgot to plug in the SAI pump, drove the car 30 miles, when coming off the interstate, the CEL was set at the first stoplight encountered. Plugged back in, no more CELs.

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Great news, and kinda embarrassing... I had forgotten to plug in the pump after removing it last time to get into attaching some of the Ultimate AOS connecting wires that lived behind the coolant tank. Thanks for the tip.

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2002's are known for undersized valve seats

OUTSTANDING! I too found it very embarrassing, especially now that Ive outed myself about it on Rennslist. But, I like you, was extremely relieved and happy to just plug it back in! Glad that was the culprit and happy to be of help.

Meh, i didnt fully seat the change over valve for the gas tank vent valve and got a code during the uaos install .