Buying Advice / Help

Hi there, I'm looking to get my first Porsche. I live in Colorado and plan on driving the car as a daily, all year (snow tires in the winter). There is a 2001 996 C4 on Craigslist. I had the car inspected by a reputable shop and everything seems mechanically sound. They only thing they mentioned was flushing the brake fluid and a slight vibration at highways speeds (which could be caused by the shot tires). I just went and drove the car for an hour today. Everything felt solid and in good order. The only catch is the mileage - 173,000. The IMS and RMS have not been done and it's on the original clutch. The ad is below. I've negotiated the price down further to $14k. http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/4927102753.html Today was the first time I saw the car in person, which I was avoiding because I figured I would fall in love. I did, it's a beautiful car (although I would swap the wheels / tires). Any and all advice / opinions are welcome. Thank you.

Personally I think you can do better for $14k. You could probably get a car the same year with under 100k on the odometer. You also have to expect that that clutch is going to need to be replaced in at most 10,000 miles if not immediately. That's a $1600-$3000 bill depending on who does it, and what else needs to be done while you're in there. I would pass on this for anything more than $11,000. People are going to argue with me, but that is solely my purchasing opinion.

Thanks for chiming in. I'll see about negotiating further.

I got a 99 C4 with 134K on it for $13K here in cali bay area, at a dealer. your price seems a bit high. Also, don't count on the all wheel drive to claw you out of any snow banks. It just provides a little more ballance in low traction conditions. Mine is the most sure footed sports car I have ever had. That said, the wife's Audi would leave me in the snow bank as she drove away.

Just sold my '99 C4 Aero last week for $15,750. Factory full aero kit with taco wing. It had 74,000 on the engine but 148,000 on the odometer, with the engine swap, upgraded IMSB, RMS, new clutch, etc. done 13,000 miles ago. It was in very, very nice condition with some very nice, mild mods - Bilstein PSS9's, B&M short shift, upgraded shift **** and e-brake handle, etc., etc. So, I agree that the car you are looking at is about an $11,000 car.

I've been super happy with my '99 C4 (despite the engine is now making bad noises...). I have to say, with good winter tires a C2 will be nearly as capable. The C4 keeps something like 80% of the power going to the rear wheels. BTW, wasn't Carlos Danger the alias of Anthony Weiner?

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It was. I thought it was such a hilarious and surprisingly creative name, given the situation that I now use it for all my usernames. Good to know about the 20/80. Have you driven a C2 with snow tires in snow?

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Sounds like a great deal and a good list of mods.

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Noted. I currently have an S4 wagon that is incredible in the snow.

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The shop that did the inspection quoted me $3k to do the clutch, RMS & IMS.

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damn I'm good! You will find your perfect car mr danger, keep hunting and it will pay off. J

The upholstery will cost a little too. Nothing is cheap in a Porsche. I agree the price is a little high for the milage and interior cosmetics. On the plus side, if you can prove that the car is on its original clutch then that indicates the car has not been abused. The pics show a nice car...and I don't mind the wheels...or at least keep them for you winter tires. The vibration is very likely wheel balance. In an older car you should add motor mounts, flush all the fluids, change the serpentine belt, and have the guy who is going to be your mechanic on the car also look at all the suspension parts and replace anything that is worn. And be prepared to have things die of old age...power window regulators, seat motors, mirror motors...lots of electrical stuff. It comes with age so don't be disappointed when it happens. Have fun.

Maybe I am wrong but it seems exceptionally rare for one of these engines to last 200k miles. Used replacements start around $10k for another engine with the same flaws they were all born with, $20-25k for an engine with the flaws corrected. How long do you intend to daily drive the car? How many miles do you expect you can put on it before the engine needs addressed? No offense meant but my research on these cars indicates that starting with a 173k mile engine and expecting to daily drive it for a few years without having an engine failure is likely pure fantasy. If you can afford the hit when the engine goes, I would negotiate way down around the $10-11k mark as suggested, otherwise I would walk away.

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You can't make blanket statements like that. The clutch may be a hundred K miles away from needing replacement. (My Boxster's original clutch as nearly 290K miles on it.)

I would have to agree with others the car is priced a bit dear. But that is to be expected. The vibration can arise if the tires are worn from out of balance tires. More and more as these wide tires wear the heavier spots/areas wear away and the tires gradually go out of balance. I nave noticed this with tires now for some years with both of my cars. When I have the rear tires replaced at around 20K miles I often have a mild vibration present. To make sure it is not with the front tires I have them rebalanced at the same time the new rear tires are balanced. A good upholstery shop can do just the portions/sections/individual panels of the seat that are damaged. No need to redo the whole seat. This saves some money yet brings the interior back up to looking nice again. Be sure you try to get a good idea of what services are due: oil/filter, brake/clutch fluid flush/bleed, tranny/diffs fluid, coolant, spark plugs, engine air filter, cabin air filter, if the tires are unevenly worn alignment (and new tires) and factor the cost of these into your offer. If you want to have the IMSB upgrade applied and the RMS swapped out after you get the car and probably replace the clutch at the same time that is up you.

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Good advice here. The gist of it is buying a high-mileage but well maintained 996 in the $11k - $12k range is not a bad way to go. Mine did very well as a DD, even in light snow (up to 5" or so). If you get a well maintained car, even with around 140k miles, you can reasonably expect to get 3 or 4 years out of it. Nobody's gonna guarantee that, but you're running the nearly the same risk with a car with 80,000 miles. If you pick up a nice high mileage car for $12k and the engine craps out on you after a year, you sell the carcass for $5k and move on. I would pass on the car you're looking at. First off, one of the first things you see every time you drive a car is the seat. If the owner was too cheap to fix that, he probably didn't spend a nickel to maintain the stuff you can't see. Good maintenance history is key. Second, probably no reason to go as high as 173,000 miles - prosled is right as the reasonable upper limit of expectation for a good engine is probably 150k to 200k miles. There are lots of 996s in that 100k to 120k range that you can get into at that $12k price point. Lastly, right now is probably the worst time of the year to buy - prices are peaking. If you can wait until October, you'll see about a 10% decrease generally.

Which local shop did the PPI and gave you the quote for the IMSB? I've driven a 911 as my daily driver for many years. I probably get more snow in Evergreen than you get in Boulder, and I've never really had any issues. Tire selection is the key to successful winter driving. I put my winter tires on in mid October and then switch back to my summer tires in mid May.

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The obviously poor condition of the seat doesn't have to mean the owner skimped with services. My 2002 Boxster's seats are fine, thank goodness, but the driver side floor mat is worn out. Looks like Hell. But I can't bring myself to spend the money to replace it. I'm thinking at 300K miles I'm writing a letter to Porsche and see if I can get new floor mats (and a new clutch!) under good will... But except for the mat, the rest of the car gets well taken care of and things -- even little things -- get fixed sooner rather than later. Have to mention to the car, the engine, would be I have to believe in sorry shape to be at 174K miles. In fact I doubt the engine would have survived this long without good care and service and treatment.

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No offense taken at all. Thanks for the input. I'd like to daily it for as long as I can My commute isn't long and I ride my bike most days.

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3 Zero 3 Motorsports did the inspection (in Denver). They also gave me the quote for the clutch, rms and ims ($3k). Do you have a C4 or C2 up in Evergreen?

Also worth mentioning... Using this as your winter day driver may not be an ideal role. There seem to be increased engine failures in cold climates (Canada). Boulder isn't usually real cold but something to consider. I would reconsider the awd C4. Potential for extra maintenance and it really isn't going to be much help in the winter. The C2 will work great with snow tires. In the 997 cars the awd becomes an advantage in the winter due to a different design.

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Good choice. 3zero3 Motorsports is great. I use them for all my maintenance. I'm currently driving a 997 turbo, which is AWD. Before that, I drove a 996 Carrera 4S.

The seller declined my offer of $11k. Thank you for all the advice. I'm in the market for a 996 C4 if you know one

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Two things. One maybe $11K is a bit below market. Next keep your eye on the car. It may not sell. Big miles scare away a lot of folks. You may find after a few weeks the car is still available and you might then buy it. For $11K? Maybe. Or you might have to up your offer some, but not by that much. I guess the question is if you can't buy the car for $11K would you still like it at $11.250K? $11.5K? Maybe even $12K?

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Let the market beat him up a little for you. Nobody is going to pay top dollar for a car with 173k miles, much less one with obvious needs. If he's not willing to come down significantly on his price, the car will still be available in a couple of months. In the meantime, enjoy the search. Don't be in a hurry to buy. Right now is the peak season for used car buyers - people just got their tax refunds back and spring fever is in full swing. I've sold 2 cars in the past 10 days. One was a Saturn Sky that we bought last summer and had listed for sale all fall. In late November we took it off the market because it was not getting any calls. We put it up for sale on a Thursday night about 2 weeks ago and had all kinds of calls starting Friday morning. Sold it over that weekend. The second was my 996 - which wasn't even for sale. Time is on your side.

173k is too many miles imo... for a few more grand I believe there are plenty of 996s avail with half the miles.. here is a 99' w 9ok miles for $16k - it looks like it has been posted for a second time on CL... http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/4936898978.html I like the 99 because dual row IMS also non e gas -

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Concur. BTW, the one in Denver has the popular 3.5 liter engine option. And, clearly the owner of that car didn't blow all of his Porsche maintenance money on a fancy camera. Black cars photograph really well with a cell phone camera and the sun staged in the background. There are a couple of shots that I'm not entirely certain there's even a visible car in there.

I saw that black C2 in Denver. I was looking for a C4 as I plan on driving the car all year (with snow tires). A few people have mentioned that the C4 wouldn't necessarily be much better because it only gets 20% to the front. 20% sounds better than 0% to me. Does anyone have any experience driving a C2 with snow tires in the snow?

$18k seems like a very aggressive asking price for the one you posted with mileage that high and rough cosmetics. This one has 65k fewer miles and is only asking $2k more http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/4876086609.html And here is one with more than 100k fewer miles that looks very well taken care of for $5k more. http://fortcollins.craigslist.org/cto/4942936426.html I understand the appeal of looking for a lower priced, higher mile option, but I don't think the price differential is great enough to make it worth while in this case, especially considering what you would likely need to put into that one right off the bat. Spend a few more dollars now and hopefully you'll get many more miles/years of enjoyment out of this purchase...

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That cab is killer!

There are videos of a C4S in the snow on youtube, and they have been posted to this forum. It is kind of sad to watch, the front tires are doing nothing 99% of the time. I have followed the C2/C4 thing carefully since it is my intention to use a 996 for winter driving in Colorado as well. What I have gleaned is that the C4 will likely need a front diff rebuild at some point. If you can DIY I do not think the costs are too high, if not, it will be fairly spendy. You may want to make sure the front driveshaft is in place, sometimes failed fwd components are removed and the car is then a C2. One of my neighbors out here ran C4's for years in the winter. He discovered the actual viscous coupler can be sourced, it is also used by VW and is know to wear out around 60k miles. With all of the above, I have crossed the C4 off my list, at least the 996 version. As far as driving a C2 in the winter, I do not see the hitch? I drove a BMW 535i on snows, open diff, in the winter. I have a '13 GTI on all seasons that works great in the winter. With 60+ % of the cars weight over the drive tires it is going to get around as well or better than most fwd cars.

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Right? Well optioned with sport seats, heated seats and cab hardtop and it appears to be well sorted mechanically based on the description in the ad. Assuming there's a bit of room to negotiate built into that price you're basically at the same starting point as the $14k car with 100k more miles once you do the clutch/rms/ims for $3k and wheels and tires for another $2k - $3k... then you get started into the cosmetics like the torn seat and the cab seems like a no brainer even at full asking price.

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No automatics or cabs for me. But are good finds.

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Thanks for the info! I've had two GTIs and had no trouble in the snow. I will strongly consider a C2.

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Whoops, didn't realize that first one was a Tip. The cab comes with a hard top, so it's the best of both worlds, right? I didn't think I wanted a cab at first either but I have to say I've enjoyed mine a lot since I've had it and will likely look for another if I do it again... Good luck with your search!

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hey man I didn't want a cab either, but now that I have the fister exhaust I almost wish I did!

Checking out the black C2 tomorrow. I'll take my own photos and post them. I've negotiated to $13k. http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/4936898978.html

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13K seems great for that car, assuming there's nothing wrong with it. And, it has the rare 3.5 L option!

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I don't know much about the 3.5L. What's the deal?

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Well, then you know about as much about it as the seller. Ask him if it's a transplant from a 350Z.

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There is no 3.5. So, it's either a typo in the seller's add, or he just has no clue. In any case, looks like a good deal if it passes a thorough PPI.

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Yes, a typo. Sort of like when someone shortens the word "advertisement" yet puts an extra "d" on there.

I've been looking for the V5 turbo with 5 valves per cylinder 996. Anyone have any leads?

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Haha. Gotcha. I thought maybe there was some magical .1L out there

Drove the black C2. Everything felt solid. The center console and drivers side arm rest storage are basically falling off their hinges, but nothing major other than that. Waiting to get a copy of their service records. Depending on how through / up to date they are I schedule a PPI. I'll post some photos in a bit.

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I thought you LIKED DDs.

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Dang. I think that's a smoking deal. I was in your position about two months ago in the same market. I saw that black one originally posted for $18k-$20k IIRC. I negotiated her down to $16.5k but never went to check it out. The terrible pictures, lack of options and color combo turned me off. I ended up going to pick one up from Texas. Here's my thread: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...t-porsche.html Edit: Did you see these? http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...94522449&Log=0 http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...94736143&Log=0 You missed a deal on a blue 99 C4 in Colorado Springs for $17k: Actually, if I was in the market again, I'd really try to check out this one: https://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-...uards-red.html It was just a bit to far for me at the time, and I felt that I got just as good a deal with mine, but that one does have a LSD, which might help in low traction conditions just as much as the all wheel drive.

Busted hinge. New brakes (rotors & calipers). Here are some photos I took. I only got a couple. I poured over their service history from the dealer. It seems like they took care of anything that was wrong when the dealer would bring it up. They had a different shop do the brakes recently (I'm assuming to save some money by not having the dealer do it). I'm waiting for those records to see what all was done. There is a record from the dealer recommending new rear struts and shocks (for $1k) that they declined. I'm wondering if the other shop did those as well. They also declined service to repair the hinge for the center and drivers side consoles, which seems odd but maybe they thought they would get around to fixing those themselves. Regardless, I'm scheduling a PPI with 3 Zero 3 again, hopefully they can fit the car in this week. Another interesting note on the milage. They have owned the car for 8 years. When they bought it (and shipped it from Atlanta) it had 70k - it currently has 90k. So it hasn't been driven all that much recently. I've heard cars sitting in garages can't be a worst bet than one drives regularly... I also have a n00b question, I didn't see the button to raise the spoiler manually. Was that an option and not standard? I don't plan or riding around with the spoiler up anyways, so it doesn't bother me. Just wondering.

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Man, I would jump on that blue C4 in an instant. I've looked at that red one here, but red isn't my color. I saw those two on AutoTrader as well - I have a saved search over there that I check every day I'm not looking for a cab and I prefer black. But thank you for all the suggestions! I really appreciate it. And all the feedback I've gotten here is amazing.

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The spoiler switch is down on the driver's side footwell. It's hard to see. Good luck with the PPI!

Yep, it doesn't even look much like a switch. Black rubbery rectangle. The car looks good, hope the PPI goes well... keep us posted!

Walk away! Wait for the next one. It's too high of a mileage for the price...any price. I'm sure the car is in good condition but how much more mileage can you expect from it?

90K miles is too many miles at any price??? Umm.... sorry, can't agree there at all.

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You belong in the 996 turbo forum.

Sorry but the original poster mentioned 173k miles. May be you guys need glasses LOL

Yeah, but that was 54 posts ago. He moved on to another car a couple of pages ago.

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Indeed. Vu.q.:

Update on the PPI Kind of a long list. Nothing major(ish) but lots of things that add up. The shop gave me a ballpark quote of $8k - $10k to fix everything. Here's the list: - The front bumper is damaged & missing most of its hardware, they said it was most likely parked over a curb and then got pulled when backing up. - Rock chips in the windshield. - The center console and driver side console hinges. - The car was about 1qt low on oil. - The sun visors are loose and can fall down. - Drivers side mirror is loose and vibrates. - The horn doesn’t work. - The rear struts are leaking oil. - Wheel bearing. - Tires are pretty worn. - Lots of road noise (may be tires). - Coolant needs to be flushed (mixed colors). - Rear engine cover strut weak and doesn’t hold. - AC compressor noisy & weak. - Interior A-pillar pulling off. - Sunroof won’t close on it’s own. - Engine vibration once warm, most likely motor mounts. - Needs alignment. Like I said, kind of long... The major items seem to be the struts (would probably end up doing the fronts at the same time), wheel bearing and AC compressor. I could honestly wait on the AC and not use it (I really do - in fact I removed it from my BMW 2002). I offered the seller $8k to take their car and give it the love it deserves. I will keep everyone posted but I suspect the search will continue

Well, if he will take 8, a good deal. Probably 5K to get it up to snuff, excluding tires.

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$8-$10k? Seems on the high side. Some of those items are normal wear and tear/maintenance items. You're not buying a new car and the price you're looking at is on the lower side For most examples to be in like new condition. From my observations, anything under $20k is gonna need some sorting out. But if you can find a pristine one in the teens, more power to you.

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I agree, the $8-$10k seems high. On Monday I'm going to have the shop itemize the list so I can get a better sense of what costs what. I'm pseudo handy and could take care of the interior trim myself, as well as the rear engine cover strut. My main concern is the wheel bearing, struts and AC compressor. I would probably take the opportunity to upgrade the suspension. And if I was going to keep the car forever, I would just do an AC delete but I think that might hurt resale down the line.

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PS. The car in your avatar looks beautiful. What wheels are those?

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Thanks. BBS RS-GT.

I'm with alp - a lot of that is to be expected in a car on the bottom end of the price spectrum. Motor mounts - good God, everybody on here has decided changing them out is like an instant upgrade to a GT3, so you would have gotten duped into changing them anyway. Tires? Another item you would have changed within a few months. Struts- as already noted, you'll upgrading to Bilsteins soon anyway. Wheel bearing - meh, no biggie. Probably the biggest issue on the list is the sunroof. The rest of the stuff is just sorting the car out. Hey, if you want some practice sorting a car out of a bunch of irritating piddly *** crap, I'll lend you my 928S4 for a month or two. A 996 is like a friggin' Honda Accord by comparison.

If the shop is charging you $8-10k for that list find another shop.

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Agreed that quote is absolutely ridiculous.

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I do, I live up the road from you. My '02 C2 does just fine with Blizzaks and has done so for the last few winters. It does better than my wife's GL450 on regular tires and was pretty much the equal of our recently departed Outback 3.6R on the factory all-seasons (departed due to non-snow related wreck). I drove it to Steamboat in January up Highway 14 with snow falling over the passes and had no issues, 10600 feet was the highest pass. With snows and PSM you can still get the back to get squirrely but you have to really be trying and/or be borderline stupid. With my old Audi S4 (C4) I could do the same thing. Around town as a daily driver it's fantastic with the snows. I think having the PSM option is probably a lot more important/safer than having the AWD. My avatar is the car on the Blizzaks on Georgetown lake during an autocross. It did great. Get a C2, no real need for the C4. If it snows that much, ground clearance will be your problem well before traction. Good luck!

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Awesome, that is great to hear. I have a B5 S4 Avant and I turn the traction control off come winter I've been meaning to make it up to Georgetown to drive the lake. I drove a rental Kia on Lake Champlain in VT this winter and it was a blast (I didn't even have a e-brake).

I got the itemized estimate for the inspection today. Here's the breakdown (parts & labor): Engine mounts + front trans mount $1k A/C Compressor $1k Wheel bearing $460 Replace all 4 struts $3k So given all of that I think $13k for the car is pretty fair. I'm going to make a (hopefully final) offer tonight. Thanks again for all the input / advice / help. I'll keep you posted.

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Those quotes are high. Take it to another shop. What is their labor rate?

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I agree.

Ya especially the $1k for motor mounts stands out as absurd when they cost at most $200 and people talk about doing them themselves in under an hour. Front trans mount cannot add that much more time to justify a $700 labor bill. Unless they are charging $250 and hour and rounding up when it gets to 2 hours and 5 minutes. Anyway that seems crazy to me.

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The quote for mounts could be on par if it includes the cost of the parts. Depending on the shop's technique for replacing trans mount, they might be removing the tranny altogether to get it on a press and press out the old one vs. dropping the tranny a bit and pressing it out in place. All the quotes seem ok to me if it includes the parts.

Got the car today. Thanks again for everyone's help. I really appreciate it, this is a great community. I'm sure I'll have many, many more questions in the near future. I'll take some photos this week and post them. Oh and the estimate from the shop included parts and labor, for what it's worth. Now that I actually own the car I have to decide what to do and in what order. Home. Sweet. Home.

Hey, congrats!!! Keep us posted with the servicing stuff.

First things first: Drive the car & enjoy it. As an older vehicle, you will ALWAYS have a "To Do" list for it. Some guys in here even have a whiteboard in their garage to keep track of their "To Do" list. The stuff on your "To Do" list can be tackled in due time. I'd probably do the wheel bearing first as the other stuff can wait. Look around for a good deal on the strut replacement - you might find someone selling a set of barely used struts. Engine mounts are a DIY job for under $200. The transmission mount is a bigger job, but I haven't researched that issue and can't give an informed opinion as to whether you'd want to try to DIY.

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Nice. But that pic kinda reminds me of this for some reason...