996 and the average joe

Is the 996 version, the first 911 "dream car" attainable to the average joe?

Let's just be clear that "attainable" and "maintainable" are two separate things. Many can attain a car like this but only some can afford to maintain it(at least properly).

Over the years, plenty of older 911's have been in the "average joe's" price range. Those are now appreciating upward, though, so it's the 996's turn. The 996 was made in large quantities, compared to many of the other 911 models, so it's affordable AND plentiful. Sports cars cost more to run than other cars. A set of performance tires generally costs close to $1K; a set of Camry or Civic tires might cost a quarter that. You can get a $25 oil change for your Ranger; a sports car that requires 9 quarts of full synthetic is going to cost 4X more. Once you have the car, you have to be able to afford to maintain it. Finally, stuff breaks on 15-year-old cars. That's just the way it works. A new $25K Kia is going to come with a 10-year, 100K mile warranty that covers every possible system. A $25K, 15-year-old 911 is going to come with no warranty, and parts cost more for sports cars, especially imports, than they do for most other cars. The 996 is a very approachable car in terms of current cost, running costs, and DIY friendliness, making it a good choice for many people. However, each "Joe" needs to make sure he can live with the car before he drops his entire pile of car money down to purchase ANY as-is, no warranty car.

I was a Corvette guy for 20 years. I was "inspired" by them, but always "aspired" to own a 911. Bought my 996 this spring and so far it has been the best car decision I have ever made. Entry price was great, 100K maintenance due shortly, know it will cost a bunch more than routine service on the Vettes, but I went into it understanding this. All I can say is this car attracts more attention and positive comments than all of my past cars, no matter what brand. I made the right decision for me.

Went in for minor service and a 'complete rundown to fix w/e else needs to be fixed' I expected a work order of suggested fixes and labor to be between 1-2k. It was in that ball park, but for the same items a new or even CPO BMW or something would have much less out of pocket with maintenance program/warranty. Cost of entry about the same as said CPO with equivalent miles. Fun factor, diy friendly, and all around Joy to have as a daily...almost priceless. These are great cars, tons of fun (not super fast in modern terms, but not slow either). I say go for it, but have a 5k safety net. At least for a bad day/annual fixes and such (tires, maintenance, oil change, etc) Some years will be less (just oil change and washes) while others may very well be more (tires, oil changes, suspension bits, clutch, etc).

Please define "average joe". I know many people that I would consider to be above average means (and I live in one of the highest median income counties in the country) and they wouldn't call a 15-30k 10+ year old car that isn't really practical for their day to day life "attainable". For those that are dedicated to following their desire to have a 911, it is certainly currently far more attainable than any other 911 (both in availability and cost). Those that can either do it without a second thought or that are willing to make the needed sacrifices (missing other things so they can handle the cost) are not what I would call "average joes". Just my $0.02 though.

I feel the term "dream car", in and of itself, means that an average Joe should not be able to financially afford it, whether due to initial cost or maintenance costs.... ETA: Although, when I bought my car I knew nothing about ANY problems or risks, just got VERY lucky to get a good car, lol....

Likely 8 out of 10 guys will say a 911 if you ask what their dream car is. They will also tell you a 911 is a wealthy mans car and beyond the reach of an average joe ($35-40K income, Midwest) but they will spend 25-30K on a new car that will never touch their soul. It will likely look run down and have issues within five years because there isn't much pride of ownership. The same 5 years, a 996 as a DD, for the same money, for most owners, will likely look and run as well as the day it was purchased, because you have pride in it and the joy of a dream come true, priceless . To a man, we all likely said, "I finally got my dream car!" when we purchased our first 911. Is it the mystique that surrounds Porsche ownership really just stifling men's dreams?

My 996tt is my dream car. I was drooling over them back when i first bought my boxster in 02. Now all i need in my garage is a f360 and my collection will be complete.

+1 All very great points.

Up until about two years ago, you could pick up a '78-'83 911SC in great 'driver' condition for low to mid teens... Those days are gone, but the good news you can now get a '99-01 911 for the same money, and it is a far superior car to actually drive, fix, or live with in almost every way. Just not as (air)Cool. Early gen Boxster's are also ridiculously cheap, but the 996 gas become so reasonable there is little reason to give up the extra power and better looks.

Although 996s are reasonably priced as far as sports cars go, I'm not sure it is attainable for an average Joe. I would not recommend anyone to buy a 15 year old high performance car and then daily drive it unless they can really afford it. The maintenance would add up very quickly. I got into my 996 for a little shy of $18k. I have always dreamed of owning a Porsche. I only drive it on the weekends however. My DD is a very reliable Toyota Tacoma. You can **** in the oil and the thing will still start.

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Word

I have had a couple friends ask me to check out Porsches for them. One 996 and a Boxster. I found myself talking them out of the purchase, only because I feel you really must love the car to maintain it right. In both instances I felt that despite my warnings, they would buy the car and a window regulator failure or some other minor event for me would be a big deal for them....I look forward for the clutch to burn out..yeah upgrade! or the struts to fail....yeah upgrade! You gotta love them to own them.

Better to have loved and lost than never loved at all. That holds true for anybody. My 01 C2 has been nearly bullet proof (1 coil pack) as my DD for nearly 5 years. I've spent more on my Cherokee cause I don't drive it. The ownership cost is higher because we pamper them. Porsches are precision machines, shouldn't we expect them to need less attention, not more, than something off a Detroit line. I bet Germans don't pamper like Americans do. For crying out loud, Mercedes, Audis, BMWs are all pampered here and they are taxi cabs in Europe. Again, is Porsche mystique a dream crusher for the average joe?

OP, if you are an average Joe, buying the 15 year old super car is a bad financial decision. Money spent on 996 maintenance can be used a lot better for education, investing, and retirement savings if you are making $40-50k a year. Because you "want" a fancy car, doesn't mean you should buy one. This applies to a lot of other unnecessary vanity items. Whenever I go to Wallyworld, I am appalled by the SNAP card users with Iphones and Gucci purses. Person living pay check to pay check is one breakdown away from filing BK if their 996 breaks down. Your priority as a grown man should be with wealth generation and preservation. If you are just getting by, buying the exotic vehicle is a very stupid idea. Despite low retail values, this is a still $80,000-$90,000 car and it requires high level of spending on maintenance.

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I disagree. My last two Porsches have been daily drivers. 99 Boxster 110k mikes and the current 02 911 with 70k miles. Oil changes are less than $60! Oil and air filters less than $40. Spark plugs installed for less than $150. Belt? Please.... What are you guys smoking?

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I don't get it, either. What's all this crazy expensive maintenance that everyone's talking about? Tires are kinda pricey, but other than that I keep the fluids changed and keep my eye on the wear bits, but I don't see my 996 as being all that expensive to keep on the road. I think people like the "allure" of owning a Porsche, so they tell themselves and everyone else that these cars are "unattainable" to keep it feeling like some kind of special treat. Please, if you have $15-20k and half a clue, you can easily attain one of these cars. Sorry, but it's ridiculous how dramatic some of you are about owning a 996.

Kalashnikov, you posted: Despite low retail values, this is a still $80,000-$90,000 car and it requires high level of spending on maintenance. Meaning no disrespect, but, Why should I (the OP) expect my 01 C2, that used only the finest materials and craftsmanship to be less reliable than 2000 jeep Cherokee. After 5 years of ownership, I think the only owners with high cost are the ones who don't drive their cars and hang out at the Porsche service department or pretentious "Indys", paying $300 plus for $60 worth of oil and $150 for a $30 fuel filter. Maintenance is maintenance and Porsches don't require rocket science degrees.

All those who think the maintenance costs are exaggerated: post up again after getting your transmission rebuilt, or buying a new short block off of Craigslist, or getting your DME/ECU rebuilt or replaced. A Civic MAF can be bought for $50. A water pump for a '99 Civic is $28 at O'reilly's. The 996 is a great car, but claims that they don't cost more to maintain are simply not true. Parts cost more, and labor costs a lot more. If "average joe" can swing it, comfortably, he should absolutely be on board with the 996. If average joe can swing it, but barely, it's a stupid financial decision. I bought my 996 assuming it would be reliable but with the understanding there was a non-negligible chance it could wind up a $30k roller. Even if I got $10 for the roller, I'd be out $20k if the engine went and the core was bad. There were MANY years, which I think are my "average joe" years, where that kind of loss would have been catastrophic. Thus, I rate the 996 "average joe attainable, with reservations."

You are looking at most basic items and most basic DIY jobs Vwillo1. Cherokee can be serviced by any mechanic and cost of used parts is very low, as car was mass produced by 100s of thousands. For Cherokee you can source the engine and transmission TOGETHER for under $1,000.00. What that means, is that average Joe can survive the complete engine or transmission failure without going bankrupt. For 996, you are looking at at least $10,000-$15,000 should catastrophic failure occur.With the annual gross income of $40,000 cost of the cherokee repair is just 2.5% of your gross annual income; cost of 996 repair is between 25% and 32.5%. Average person simply cannot afford to have a 996 failure during their period of ownership. Financial risk of the 996 ownership for someone on the average salary is very high. If your 996 was flawless during the last 5 years, fantastic! Your car is an outsider on the reliability bell curve. On the other side of the curve there will also be a 996 that had a catastrophic engine or transmission failure, and plenty of cars somewhere in-between. That being said, you cannot use your personal experience alone as a representation of the 996 ownership for the AVERAGE driver. Honda/Lexus vehicles are considered to be reliable because on AVERAGE they require less maintenance and experience less break-downs compared to their peers. Are there hondas that break down constantly? Sure they are. But statistically speaking, you are far more likely to get a reliable and maitenance free Honda compared to the vehicle from Audi.

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No average Joe will buy a Porsche

My C4S and my Cayenne are reliable cars. That being said, they are more expensive to maintain than the Hondas I've owned in the past and the Subarus that I own now. Even if you have some DIY skills, they are more expensive to maintain. A new set of tires for the Subie runs about $500. For the Porsches, it's about $1,500. Things wear out on older cars too. I had my front differential rebuilt in 2012. That was about $3,500. For some perspective, here's what I've spent in maintenance for the C4S (including disposables like tires and brakes) for the last few years: 2007: $2,394.45 2008: $2,133.28 2009: $3,034.86 2010: $1,758.27 2011: $5,585.66 2012: $6,815.43 2013: $8,323.11 2014: $4,442.05 so far I don't have a car payment, so I don't mind paying for maintenance. I am starting to get to the point though where I'm weighing the possibility of buying a newer 911 or keeping this one on the road.

Interesting data Dennis. From 2011 and up your expenses are definitely approaching the lease payment on the base Cayman. You are $100 odd bucks away from 36 months lease on the Cayman with $5,000.00 down.

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Oh please! Most people are afraid of buying a Porsche is because of bs logic from people like you.

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This is very well organized, can't show this to my accountant she will kill me At the end how much you spend on maintenance depends on you!!! Are you the DIY who can remove the engine take it completely apart change the transmission and put your car back together with your eyes closed? Are you the one who do the basic maintenance and for more complicated repairs take it to your Indy or a Porsche dealer? Are you the one who take it to your Indy and do everything he says? Are you the one who take it religiously to your Porsche dealer and do maintenance as schedule in your owners manual? Are you the one who take your car to the shop only when you feel there is a problem? Are you the one who sees a problem google it try to repair the damage yourself, because a car is a car and a Porsche technician got nothing on you? Then you will see how much you spend as I always said, maintenance is the key of everything!!!!!

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That's one of the best, most thoughtful, and well-worded summaries of 996 ownership I have ever seen. As a side note: I used to freak when I took in my Subaru and it needed a $300 repair. With my 996, I'm: "Wow, that repair was under $1,000, I am so relieved!"

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I'm the type of guy who fixes something whenever it breaks and who does maintenance at recommended intervals. I'm capable of basic repairs and maintenance like oil changes and brakes. I'm not capable of or don't have time for things like rebuilding my front differential. I'm fortunate to have a good independent mechanic who charges less than my dealer and does very good work. As an example - the dealer said that the front differential isn't serviceable and needs to be replaced when it fails. The part alone is close to $7,000. My wife has seen this list (and the binder full of receipts in my study) and she is actually starting to push me to get a newer 911.

Its am Import so by nature is more than a domestic or Asian crap box to maintain. But I dont think it is as expensive as many claim, if you can DIY your made, they are super easy to work on. I dont think general maintenance is so bad, but if something break then its going to be expensive, as any German car is. I have an 06 A4, which has a tranny leak that they have now diagnosed as a porous or cracked case, used tranny $2,300 installed. Makes my 911 look cheap!

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I agree with your perspective but your math is off and it skews your stats. Median income is $51k Most 996 are not self destructing time bombs that everyone who owns will have to pay maximum catastrophic failure and are not on the outside of an imaginary reliability bell curve. Where did you get that ? Many if not most Porsche owners make considerably above the Median http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acsbr12-02.pdf

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I think it's more because of the "Porsche Tax" that is imposed by both part manufacturers and service industry. Whenever Porsche is mentioned, the part automatically jumps up 5x as well as the service, even though the material used or service rendered might be the same as a Honda. Us owners are the victims here and should not be blaming each other. If you go in with this understanding of elevated cost, the. "avg" joe could make it work as long as they do their research in advance and are willing to take a chance on the worst case scenario(blown engine). I've never paid so much for parts until I got a Porsche but I also know if you wanna play, you gotta pay.

You just have to understand that being able to afford the purchase of the car is much different than being able to afford to own the car. Today we see lots of people who have bought 996s at great prices, but when they experience some form of failure they can't afford to repair the car and are forced to sell it. We call those "Bankrupt cars". Its happening much more often with GT3 and Turbo models, because they are selling too cheaply these days and everything with those cars costs more than a standard Carrera. Lots of guys are stepping up to those models and away from the Carrera only to find that playing in those leagues is something they can't afford to do. Hell, I just bought a Ferrari that was "bankrupt" because it needed a major engine- out service and wasn't even broken.

I'm beginning to think a lot of Porsche owners are "glass half empty" people.

I don't think that maintaining a car according the manufacturer's recommendations and fixing it when it breaks makes someone a "glass half empty" kind of person. If I was that kind of person, then I would have sold my 996 a long time ago. Any car with over 135K miles on the odometer is going to need some maintenance. Things wear out. Things break. This is true for any car. I don't think it would make me a "glass if half full" kind of guy if I skipped out on recommended maintenance or looked for the cheapest way to repair the car to save a few pennies.

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Those are not maintenance costs. You're describing catastrophic failures, which can be insanely expensive on any virtually any modern car. I actually did have an engine failure that cost me $11,400 to fix, but I consider that an anomaly and even including it in my totals (including the purchase price of the car) I'm farther ahead than some of you. What would the Ford dealer charge to replace, say, a 3.5L EcoBoost twin-turbo motor on an F150 that's slightly out of warranty? My mechanic charges me the same hourly rate regardless of which of my vehicles he's working on. I bring him most of the parts and can't say that I've noticed a huge difference between the 996 and my other cars. It's been a while since I drove a Civic, but it's interesting that you choose to compare the 996 against a "commodity" car like the Civic. What do those parts cost on a three-year-old Mustang GT with the Cyclone motor? But that's true of virtually every modern car that's out of warranty. Look at Dennis's receipt totals for maintenance going back to 2007--those repair costs are more than I paid for my entire car + engine replacement at Porsche dealer (with warranty) + up-to-date maintenance since then. My suspension is getting a little tired, but other than that there are simply no issues with my car that cost thousands to rectify every year. Based on what some of you guys are saying, we'd all be better off never doing any maintenance at all and just dumping the car when it breaks and buy a comparable newer one. That said, I think some of y'all are getting screwed on the repair/maintenance costs. I take the manual over to my wrench every year and point to the page showing the maintenance, he grunts and does the work and hands me a reasonable bill. I must be the luckiest 996 owner in the world.

I think that my mechanic charges a reasonable rate compared to the dealer. He uses quality aftermarket parts when appropriate and his hourly rate is the same for our Porsches or our Audis. One thing to consider is that for many people, it's worth paying for the maintenance as opposed to doing it yourself. I make more money working than the money that I would save doing my own maintenance. As I mentioned above, my annual costs include disposables. My C4S is my daily driver, and it sees about 10K miles per year. Between winter tires and summer tires, I seem to buy a new set or at the very least new rears every year. Last year's high total included a new clutch, new IMSB from LN Engineering, new tires, new battery, new lower control arm and a host of routine maintenance items. It all adds up...

my 4th year of ownership just passed and honestly one of the lower maintenance cars I have owned. One alternator replaced, one window regulator, one of my radiator fans is on its way out now, done brake pads twice and after 72k miles need rotors other than that it has been oil changes religiously and tires. If I have a catastrophic failure on any modern car it is going to be expensive are Porsche parts and service more than regular car. Yes. Does my car give me exponentially more pleasure to drive than a regular car? YES! Good enough for me.

In 13 years and 70k the big bill by far has been the tires. Other than that and oil we've had: 2 RMS replacements (under warranty) 1 clutch (replaced during the second RMS so we only paid for the part) 5 window regulators (only 2 that we've had to pay for) 3 or 4 batteries Carrier plate for the steering wheel airbag. Turn signal stalk. 1 or 2 sets of plugs. A few air filters 3 cabin filters The 6yr/60k was put off until it was 12, but the belt was replaced before that. 2 sets of rotors and 5 or 6 sets of pads. And I need to replace the cowl cover and lower seal on the windshield. It's reliability and low cost of ownership (compared to what I expected) was the big reason I went with my Cayenne when I needed a new/bigger SUV.

I'm not sure why the people who disagree that the car can be expensive to own are being so indignant/angry? If you disagree, that's fine. I've owned a great many cars over the years, and the 996 is one of the costliest when it comes to parts. Feel free to call me a dirty liar - but I'm the one buying the stuff, not you. If you'd like to find really affordable parts and buy 'em for me, that would be super. I do all of my own PM, and as much repair work as I can, and I'm very adept at finding parts for much less than one would spend buying from the parts counter. None of this negates the fact that stuff is expensive. I encourage anyone who wants a 996 to purchase a 996 - I would not discourage anyone from buying their dream car...so long as they can afford it. "average joe," by definition, makes the median income and doesn't save much money - Google the current US personal saving rates, median income, etc. In my OPINION (which was what the OP was soliciting by opening this thread), someone making the median income and saving very little money (~4%) is not making the best financial decision by purchasing a 10-15 year old sports car instead of a late-model car with a warranty. When one factors in things like fuel economy, insurance costs, registration fees, depreciation, and all of the other costs that need to be included beyond purchase price and maintenance costs, I believe you'll find that a 911 costs more than average, which would be problematic for "average joe." Feel free to disagree, but at least make an effort to be civil.

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I don't think it's specifically indignation, just offering the counter point. It all comes down to the car in the end. For every money pit there also seems to be the car that doesn't need a dime and the overall point is that representing them all as money pits is as disingenuous as representing them as the cheapest cars to run. In dealing with used cars there is no truer statement as "Your mileage may vary" and the old the car is, the truer that becomes. You'll get no arguments from me here. I was lucky to be able to buy this one for her at an early age (internet stocks) while I was still only making about $40k/year. The first set of tires it needed really hurt (especially since we needed all 4 being a C4). I don't deny that we were also lucky that nothing major ever happened to it that wasn't covered by warranty. Now I'm lucky enough to be in a position where I could absorb most repair costs on it without too much trouble and we can (and will should it ever happen) handle replacing the engine (though that will still be a painful experience). The key thing I learned from buying this car and my Jag (about the same time and it was an electrical lemon, shocking I know) is that you should never make major purchases based on luck.

Heh. I can imagine the "Should an average joe buy a 15-year-old Jag" thread. The Jag we had when I was a kid was possessed - like, push in the cigarette lighter with the door open and the window would roll down kind of possessed. I think Jag's electrical engineers for the past 40 years have been lunatics.

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I got mine after Ford took them over and cleaned up that crap, but apparently mine was built by an old timer... Talk about depreciation, I paid $70k for it, sold it 4 years later for 20k, and now you can pick them up for $1000 Of course Jags still don't hold a candle to LRs or MGs in the "should I buy it" category

I want another MGA someday, but probably not as a reliable daily driver. Heh.

You think Jags are bad? I drove a 1979 Alfa Romeo Spider Veloce as my daily driver in the early 80s. That didn't last long... There's nothing like having your passenger say "do you smell smoke?"

Ahh the tires. Around 6 months after I took delivery of my 996 (new), I noticed the rear tires were almost bald. I thought something was seriously wrong. The car only had 7,500 miles on it, all by me of course. That's how I found Rennlist, looking around to find out what was wrong with my car. They quickly informed me, and I gladly went out and bought a new set of tires to start my tire education.

I had to pull up into someone's driveway once to grab their garden hose because the brakes in the MGA caught fire. You haven't clenched until you look over the fender at a stop light and notice flames licking up from the wheel well.

That's a funny story! My only brake issue with the Alfa occurred when I was slowing to exit the freeway in Dallas. I pressed the brake pedal and heard a loud "pop". This was followed by the brake pedal going all the way to the floor and the brakes essentially being rendered inoperative. Fortunately I was able to downshift and then use the handbrake to stop.

You guys know that Jag is now owned by Tata. You know, the Indian car company that makes the cheapest cars in the world with 3 lugnuts?

When my wife and I were in Cairo, we came up with a game: Spot the car with the fewest lugnuts. 2 seems to be the lower limit for keeping a wheel on - we didn't see any single-lugnut cars.

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Your daily and it only sees 10k miles a year?! I got mine in May of this year and am VERY close to that mark (I think 8,500 so far) . I know off topic...oh well

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+996 The perfect answer. Wasn't there a poll a while back on average income in this forum? I don't recall the results, but I'd bet the % of average joe income owners was way less than 50%. I have pretty above average wrenching skills, a garage and lift, and do virtually all my maintenance. Parts are expensive, but so far, my car has been very reliable and cost of ownership excellent, since I DIY. But I also only drive it like 3-4k a year, and I drive it every chance I get, as long as I don't have to leave it at the airport or some parking lot for days, because I've got a rental or am traveling for work. I don't know what y'all have been working on, but it's not the easiest car to work on by any means in my book. I'd take any 90's, '0x BMW for ease of working on, though parts are still expensive compared to domestics. I guess I'm more conservative or careful, but if I was only saving 4% of a $50k income, ANY $20 - 25k, 15 year old sports car is not a smart decision.

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Yup. It might be just under 10k per year...

911s have always been attainabke if you were willing to get a used one. The 911 and the corvette have akways been the attainable ekite sports car. As far as the maintenence goes, unless you bought a dog or abuse you car, it is not particukarky outrageous, especially if you can do the simpler things like chabge the oil and brake pads yourself. Really changing out the clutch is the major expense. And that is at most every 30,000 miles and you can akways get an automatic, which are indestructable. If you can afford tires and changing out the clutch every few years and can turn a wrench, they are not hard to maintaine. It is not lime having a cambelt Ferarri or something, and even those are not as bad as peooke say.

Not being able to afford maintenance seems to be the main knock against attaining your dream car. Hmmm, have you read the "who works on their own car" thread yet. Living the dream without paying through the nose, and enjoying it!

The way I see it, I bought this car for the whole experience--not just the drive. I feel it's a point of personal pride (and satisfaction) that I'm starting to DIY some of the maintenance. It's not just a car, it's a hobby. TC

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Dang, so THAT'S where my old Alfa ended up I called her "50 50" 'cus when you put the key in you had about a %50 chance of actually going anywhere. And I spend less on my 996 than I do on my kids Huffy ...

These are all great points, pro and con both ways. FWIW I own an old Land Rover for work and my P-car for pleasure. I wrench on both of my cars, am retired military and have access to shop with a lift, engine shop, paint booth etc which save me a lot in maintenance. I'm sure being retired and living off that income now puts me in the much lower income bracket, but I get a great monthly pension, have a super nest egg fund, income from a few rental properties so it all balances out. So, I'm kinda a average Joe with benefits, lol.

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Your spelling is atrocious but that doesn't matter because what you said is 100% accurate. Long ago in college I took my student loan money and bought a Fly Yellow Ferrari Dino with a blown engine. A year later it was my daily driver for 3 years at Boston University. Upkeep was not that hard, back then it was finding information that was the nightmare. That lack of info is what made it possible for shops to rape you because you had very limited options. Nowadays with places like Rennlist getting part numbers and DIY instructions simplifies everything.

I bet you wish you still had the Dino.... it would really good next to the black C2.

Everyone who owned a Dino at one point wishes that they still had it.

Glad to see so many "living the dream" rather than dreaming about living it.

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This line just made me LOL. HAHAHA!

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Technically, it's not a "Ferrari" Dino. But either way, that is one of my favorite cars of all time and I still kick myself in the rear for not getting in at the bottom of the market back in the early to mid 90's.