engine may be done - need some advice

Would love some advice..... Had my '99 C2 6spd. in for an oil change and a/c charge. Shop came back with the following. They said i have metal in the oil filter (gold or bronze in color, can't remember), a leaking head gasket and a bad AOS. They also said I should absolutely stop driving it right away and either sell it or do an engine rebuild. I've only had this car for about 6 months and I'm trying to decide what to do. car has 118k on the clock, but is super clean inside and out. runs and sounds great. It is truly advised to not drive the car anymore for fear of catastrophic failure? Would there be concern that the block is unusable if it gets driven to the point of failure? Any other options for engine rebuilds other than the big 3 (LN, FSI, Slakker)? I guess i just want to understand if i can drive this thing for a few months while i figure it out or if it needs to sit in the garage? then do i make a $20k car turn into a $50k car thats worth $25k? New to Porsches, but love the way the car drives.

First off sorry for your situation . To my knowledge these cars don't blow head gaskets . However they do crack cylinder heads . Did the shop show you pics of bore scoring ? Do you trust this shop ? I think a coolant system pressure test is next . Is there oil in the coolant tank ? It will be a brown milkshake . Did the shop say there was intermix ? Coolant in the oil ? Answer those questions and guys like Porschetech3 will chime in with expert advice .

I think gold/bronze color particles in the oil filter is connecting rod and crank shaft bearing material . Probably not good news . What weight oil and what were your oil pressures like ?

Take it to someone competent who can methodically check out your issues.

Overall, I�d say the shop is competent. Recommended in the area for Porsche repair. One of the owners was or is a PCA president here which doesn�t speak to mechanical aptitude, but does speak about involvement in the scene. No mention of abnormalities in the oil with coolant mixing or anything. Coolant was just leaking from the head interface. no pressure tests done. Is it really worth it considering what�s in the oil? not sure on the oil weight. I only had the car a couple of months. Oil pressure woul run 4 bar at startup and once warm, would run about the same are the rpm 1k=-4bar, 3k=3 bar etc.

Does this shop do rebuilds? I just went through something similar. Some stupid shop said my engine was blown because of metal particles in the oil. I took it to a highly reputable shop and paid $1k for an extensive review. They determined that the issue wasn�t catastrophic and we proceeded to do long overdue maintenance. A well sorted 996 is worth $40k imo although your mileage is over double mine. Most are not well sorted. I guess you�ll have to decide how badly you want it but I would spend the money on an extensive review.

Not sure what that first pic is? The 2nd of the leak i would bet the coolant is actually coming from the that recrangular cover with the 2 bolts. They r a known issue. Also as said above, the head gaskets in these cars do not leak. If there is no coolant in the oil or vise versa then its not intermix. A coolant pressure test really needs to be performed and the leak location identifide. If the aos tests bad then get a uaos. I think i would step baxk, find a second shop, tow it over if u r really worried and get a 2nd opinion.

You are here so you don't believe the shop's diagnosis. At least, a second opinion is warranted before you drop $25K to fix a $25K car. Take it to a second place, and this time tell them. "Make a list of all symptoms before you tell me the causes" 1) does it have metal in the oil filter? 2) does it have any misfires and codes? 2a) what cam deviation does it have? 3) does it have whitish smoke coming out the exhaust? 4) Does the AOS fail the manometer test? 5) Does it have any bearing noise, piston slap? 6) Remove the oil pan, look inside, what do you see? That is going to cost some $ to get the answers. Then you can decide what you need to do vs what you want to do.

If that shop is saying that an M96 has a blown head gasket they don't know this motor very well. Find another shop.

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I assumed the first pic was the oil filter housing with a bit of metal mixed in the oil. shop did say the aos is leaking oil and coolant. the car has zero smoke on startup and zero smoke when driving away. It�s nice and quiet when it runs and doesn�t seem to get piston slap. im definitely taking it slow. not rushing into spending $30k. These suggestions are great to help ask questions.

Sorry you're having these problems.... Well, that pic of the bottom inside of oil canister sure doesn't look good. Probably bearing debris. When it gets to that copper/gold color in your pic, thats the bottom layer of the babbit bearing coating before it hits the steel shell. Not good. Hard to tell from the pic the actually amount of the metallic debris, but your shop knows, with its hands on that filter canister experience. What I can tell you with some certainty, if you took apart the crank carrier/bearings, at least 1 bearing is worn out to its bottom layer. The piston coating is also that color but its not metallic like the shop says you've got.... Hard to tell if crank is still salvageable. Maybe, but if engine locks locks up, diffidently not good then... Even if block is worn and scored its still a candidate for nik'd sleeves. If you blow a hole thru the block with a hydrolocked rod, be lucky to even get a core return. If AOS is bad, depending on how bad, anytime you could suk in a gulp of oil that hydrolocks engine, possibly destroying everything. So, the way it sits now, you've still got a drivable/rebuildable(?) car/engine. If you do continue to drive it, you might not have that sooner than later. If you absolutely have to drive it, then test/change out the faulty AOS at the least. And keep all fluid levels full. This might prevent a sudden total catastrophic failure. You'd still have the very worn out crank bearing(s). That, depending on how bad the crank bearings are, could spin at any time,, especially if engine is being pushed hard. But, many m96 have run for quite a while with worn out bearings. Have read of almost your exact situation here on our forums numerous times. Even with spun rod bearings they still seem to run,,, many with rod knock to some degree. A spun main might not have much noise till it seizes up. Some have gone to 2nd opinion other shops that check in the oil filter and see hardly anything since oil was just changed and engine seems to run/sound ok, maybe low oil pressure when hot like so many m96 have, then give the "seems ok to me"... But make no mistake, all that metallic copper colored debris in that last filter canister means something,,, a harbinger of the future. How long before a catastrophic failure ? hard for anyone to tell from here on the interweb. But if you trust the shop it was at, they did see hands on enough to condemn it, I'd tend to believe them more than not when it comes to lower end problems on a m96... Don't run it now at my request, but in the past how was it,,,,any rod knock...? How does engine sound at idle..? Whats the oil pressure at hot idle ? hot oil pressure at 4000rpm..? Do you have puddles of oil /coolant on garage floor...? Is there intermix..? Its very doubtful the head gasket is blown, thats just not part of the m96 problem areas. More than likely the oil leakage is from the aos, valve covers, fill tube, etc. So many possible oil leak areas its very hard to pin point all of them with out a detailed cleaning and inspection. But an oil leak probably won't kill the engine as long as you keep it full of oil. Now the AOS, ya that can kill it dead real fast... Your call what you do. Yes there are other options than the $30-40,000 engine builds. Are they as good, probably not. Do a search for short blocks, and also for 3.2 boxster engine block swap. Try not to gamble on a used engine, majority of those are dismantler Frankenstein jobs or just worn out 20year old engines, but you might get lucky..? Or cut your losses now and sell while its still running ok. Or, imho, the best course of action is.... do an engine swap and get rid of the problematic m96 altogether for a nice LS, Honda K, or Audi 2.7T. You can find them all cheap in bone yards all over our country. And have a blast with almost double the HP & dependability, with one of the best sports car chassis ever built. Porsche purists, and the shops that profit heavily from the failures/problems of the m96 will disagree with engine swaps and insist on how great the m96 is, and it deserves whatever it take$$,$$$. I myself would love to do what De Jeeper did, find a crashed 996 GT and swap out the engine and all needed stuff from donor and have a Mezger 996GT-ish, SWEET... Some will tell you after a re-engineered engine rebuild (if you're not a DIY type) $35K + all the other needed bolt ons & upgrade$ for another $10K then you'll have a dependable 300-330 WHP engine. Now all you have to do is spend another $10K on suspension refresh/wheels/tires. Then comes the interior & media center, paint corrections, etc.... In the long run, most sold high mile not already sorted 996 are not dependable daily driver monetary bargains, no matter how you look at it, unless you're a DIY type with a 996 slush fund, and even then.... This isn't to say many here and all over the world don't have excellent running/looking 996, because many do. When these cars are running right they are a lot of fun. Question is how long will it go like that, especially if its tracked, before the required work is/must be done. Many have spent double what the vehicle is worth, and are happy doing it. Others not so much... jmHo

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thanks for the reply. To answer a few of your questions if I remember correctly, it has 1 bar at island about 4 bar at 4k rpm. leaks zero oil onto the ground. Visibly it doesn�t burn any oil at startup or while driving. Sounds and runs fine. No mention of intermix. I have considered an engine swag. Just don�t know if want to add another project to my list

Lets take a more Scientific look at this ::: 1. No smoking 2 1 bar hot idle , 4 bar 4k rpm hot oil pressure 3 No Noise 4 good power/smooth Now, the Headgasket is "seeping" by the white crustation seen in the Photo ..Some modern coolants have a coagulant in them that stops small seeps/leaks by forming a white crystal when it contacts air.......I would not say this is 'Ideal" but certainly can be "managed " for quite some time with carefull monitoring and top-ups......Sorta like having Diabetes...... The picture of the oil filter housing is much more concerning..All oil has metallic particles in them as part of the additives, but they are too small to be seen with the nekid eye except in a certain light can appear as a "metallic sheen" .......The "thrust bearing" can also produce these "just barely seen" gold/bronze particles from very heavy stop-n-go traffic......and since the hot oil pressure is still good, there is a good chance that this is what is being seen here ......again not Ideal, and more concerning than " Diabetes" it's more like Stage 1 Prostate Cancer ... The good news is there appears to be " no large metallic particles" ... My recomendation :: Test the oil Sample for Wear Metals ::: I hope they saved a sample of the oil so you can send to a Lab for testing ...If not drive the 1k miles then do an oil sample and send to a Lab for testing .... This will give much more indication of whats going on inside the engine.... If the AOS is leaking oil and coolant ( no pictures or details ) then replace with UAOS and never worry about that again... Don't even think about installing an LS engine .....Just crush the car......

Wasn't there an issue where the crank thrust bearings wear out with the rest of the engine satisfactory?

Was the color of the particles determined after they were removed from the oil? If they labeled the color looking through the oil, the color could be misdiagnosed. If yes, this could be the IMSB shedding particles. In which case, you have sandpaper for oil. I'm sorry you're going through this. Regardless what this is, I see it as needing reconstruction. I got my 996 after my RX7 went through the same expensive exersize,(engine costing more than the value of the car) only to find out I bought a more costly version of the issue. FSI engine later, I don't have to worry about any of an old original engines issues. If you love the feel of the car and keep your cars forever, get the reconstructed engine. Good luck with your choice.

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Yes we have had few document in here and is what I was thinking of when posting my thoughts.....Lab Tests would help to shed more light on that.. ..

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Haha what�s wrong with an LS?

Quotes source post: 20136068

" LS " = Lacks Sex-appeal

As long as it�s fast, it�s good enough for me!

My 2 cents on how to approach this problem. I have similar situation where it is determined that I need a complete rebuild of my engine as my car was 120K miles and even though the problem is loose valve seat, just doing top end doesn’t make sense. I won’t consider buying another used 996 that is still has stock engine even if the IMS has been upgraded as it has been documented here that besides IMS, you might run into bore scoring that the reason is not completely clear. What is clear is that it occurs most likely to the M96 engine with Lokasil bore. Even 997.1 engine might have this issue. Not sure about 997.2 engine, what I have read of the DFI engine is that they might not have that problem (either it is still too new or really non existent, I am no expert to know which one). So the way you can look at this problem is to see what you can get for selling your 996 with broken motor as-is and use that money as part of buying a DFI 997.2. Look at the additional money you need to add. If it were me, if I am going to get my engine rebuild, I would like to change the bores to Nikasil like the 996 GT3 engine and the older air cooled 911 engine. That bore doesn’t develop bore scoring. As far as I know the ones doing that is FSI/LN or Slakker/Hartech. Check with them the cost. So if the cost to rebuild is less than the additional money you need to add to get the used 997.2, to me is no brainer to get the M96 rebuild. You can even get the engine enlarged to 4.1L with a very stout midrange. However, if the additional money you need to add to get the used 997.2 is less than the rebuild cost, and you don’t have attachment to your 996, then get the 997.2. However, browse the Rennlist forum for the 997.2 to see what other issues it has. Every Porsche generation from the beginning has its own unique problem that mostly by now has some solution. Sorry for the long post, I just want to share my decision making process on my issue and I am very happy with the result. My wallet on the other hand, is not too happy

997.2 is a 9A1 and can still score. Less probable but we are seeing more and more of them as time passes. You need Nikasil or SUMEbore to be completely in the clear of bore scoring.

What oil are you using, and at what fill level? How much are you adding between oil changes? I�d highly recommend getting a used oil analysis�it�ll give you a much clearer picture of what�s really going on inside the engine. While I do believe everyone should eventually let us rebuild their engine and upgrade it to how it should�ve come from the factory, I don�t believe in doing it under false pretenses. Honestly, I spend about half my time helping people diagnose issues, only to find out their shop had misdiagnosed the problem.

It's probably too late for an oil analysis. I would have the car towed to another shop (with experience) and get a second opinion.

I appreciate everyone's responses. Maybe its not as bad as it seems? The shop its at is very reputable. Other Porsche independent shops recommend this shop as well as local experts. It seems as though this may have been an "easy" diagnosis versus an in-depth figure out what exactly it may be. I'm going to inquire about the oil sample and if its not there, i'll happily drive the 1k miles to get a sample. I've only owned the car for 6 months. i would be shocked if i put 500 miles on it so far. I checked the oil level using the dashboard gauge.

Thanks for answering those questions. Its great you've got no intermix, no engine noise, no smoke, and it runs fine. Thats really good signs. PT3 and theprf suggested the thrust bearing could be the (only?) worn bearing. Sounds feasible. Although the amount of copper color in filter housing seems excessive for 1 bearings small thrust faces..? The shop/tech that found this is the best one to know exactly how much of this copper color metallic debris was in the filter canister and if it could be from only 1 bearings thrust faces... Pics of this debris on our forum can't show quantity, your tech knows. Also, just not sure if the composition of the thrust face of the thrust bearing is the same as the bearings main layers with a copper base..? Some engines thrust bearings are, some aren't. Suppose a worn out thrust bearing is better thab a rod bearing, maybe ? But , it can lead to crankshaft movement, causing damage to the engine block or crank carrier, leading to engine seizure. Wear on the thrust bearing surfaces can cause the crankshaft to move excessively, disrupting the other bearings oil film and leading to further damage/seizures. Once that thrust surface of the crank is damaged, thats it for that crank($6k), NG. A image to show where the copper color in your oil filter canister likely came from. And how much wear it takes to get into the bearings copper layer. Not sure of the exact composition of the oem m96 bearings, its probably similar to below pic. But at worst, the copper layer will be in the same position regardless of the other layers exact composition...

I would definitely do an oil change and oil analysis after 1,000 miles or so.

If it was for a serious medical condition you would get a second opinion. I think it applies to cars too, especially if the worst case is 25K job. I had a similar experience with mine almost 6 years ago when I bought it, I got a second opinion, from an even more qualified Porsche mechanic and the original suspected issue was not the problem. I went forward with the work most will suggest you get done. I now have a much more complete record of all the work done to my car and I have enjoyed it for the last 6 years. The smiles per mile, are still there. Good luck with what ever direction you go with.

So i spoke with a buddy of mine who is deep into profession Porsche racing. We have a game plan to run this new oil for 1000 miles and get it tested. Based on pictures, one suspected theory of the head gasket "problem" is that the o-rings on the oil cooler are leaking a little and dripped down to the head making it appear that its in the head area. From the replies here and speaking with my buddy, i feel a bit better about the situation. Doesn't mean that an engine rebuild isn't in my future.

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Great minds think alike !!!