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YOUR RESEARCH993s and 996s seem so little now.
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first car i've ever seen
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I was not expecting an Elise-like experience from a 3-ton vehicle, but...it was the first car I've ever seen with an electronic parking brake, and that feature is representative of everything else about it.
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Porsche isn't a niche product any more...with the exception of the harder cars (GT3/GT3 RS), the era of the James Dean-esque driver's Porsche is long gone, replaced by cars with "infotainment" systems and lots of things designed to keep you from actually doing anything interesting behind the wheel...
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The second I gave up on after the heater core hose let go after I'd already poured a ridiculous amount of money into it trying to fix water leaks in the cabin and prior accident damage (they used masking tape to "fix" a hole!).
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I believe my back seats are being used on a daily basis...by the guy I shipped them to.
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Here in WI it's probably a $4k car because we suck in terms of having "cool" cars available for purchase.
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Porsche isn't a niche product any more...with the exception of the harder cars (GT3/GT3 RS), the era of the James Dean-esque driver's Porsche is long gone, replaced by cars with "infotainment" systems and lots of things designed to keep you from actually doing anything interesting behind the wheel...
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It holds the same two people as the Boxster and Cayman...a little less luggage space...uses a dual clutch transmission with paddle shift and all the other gizmos.
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The second I gave up on after the heater core hose let go after I'd already poured a ridiculous amount of money into it trying to fix water leaks in the cabin and prior accident damage (they used masking tape to "fix" a hole!).
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first car i've ever seen
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I was not expecting an Elise-like experience from a 3-ton vehicle, but...it was the first car I've ever seen with an electronic parking brake, and that feature is representative of everything else about it.
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Was at the dealer getting new motor mounts in my 996 and wandering around the used car section. Almost zero 997s, 1 996 beater, and 3 993s. The rest were all 991s. And one 991 cab was next to a 993 cab...and the 991 made the 993 look like the 356 in the dealer showroom. The 991 may as well have been a Panamera.
I would have loved to have had all three side by side...356, 993 and 991. Nothing we can do about it now...it is what it is. But I can't believe that with all the exotic materials and technology, the 991 could not have been made the size of the 993...or at leasat the 996. Especially at the cost of the 991. The Club Coupe will go for $136k before you add on options. But it is almost the size of a Camero.
And Cayman's don't count...they have no back seat. Even they dwarf the 356, which can still carry the same number of people that the 991 can.
The 911 is far from alone in this weight gain. Look at a line up of BMW's 3 and 5 series. Each 3 is about the size of the previous 5 and each 5 is about the size of the previous 7.
At least you can put a 991 next to a 356 or 911 and recognize the DNA even without the badging. Not many other cars that carry their design through like that.
As far as the Cayman, I liked the original as it was small and to the point. I was quite dismayed when I saw my first 981. That poor thing really took to the American diet hard
As a former BMW owner, 10 to be exact, the brand has really died for me. As you mentioned, you can line up ANY 911 next to ANY generation and easily see they are related.
I believe a modern 3 series is almost the same size as my e39 M5 was in terms of length and weight.
Also, they completely lost me when they decided to start slapping M badges on everything (and charging an additional $5k for an "m" exhaust), and creating a 2 & 4 series
Back in the day, the 928 was called big, now the 991 is way bigger than that, heck the 669 is just as long but all slightly narrower on the inside. All cars are getting bigger and porkier, not just Porsches.
Caymans are the new Porsche sports car no matter the number of seats. What percentage of us use the back seats on a regular basis?
As pointed out the 911 has grown, and unfortunately so has the Cayman.
I really like the size of my 996 and especially my 1st gen Cayman.
I don't think I am interested in ever buying a 991.
Porsche really needs to bring out a smaller sports car.
I'm sure they do market research all the time and that will drive their new products, but we can always hope.
I believe my back seats are being used on a daily basis...by the guy I shipped them to.
On the plus side, my insurance went DOWN when I moved from a 986 to a 996 - I'm assuming the number of seats was partially responsible.
Unfortunately, market research IS driving product development - which explains the 4-door sedan and two SUV's in the lineup. Porsche isn't a niche product any more...with the exception of the harder cars (GT3/GT3 RS), the era of the James Dean-esque driver's Porsche is long gone, replaced by cars with "infotainment" systems and lots of things designed to keep you from actually doing anything interesting behind the wheel...
Don't know about percentages but I use mine on a weekly basis. They are so important to me that I'd not have bought a Porsche in the first place without backseats. My kids are too young to ride in the front but pretty much the perfect size for the 911 backseats...
BMW's thought process: "Let's create a Coupe version of our luxury Sedan, then make that Coupe version of our luxury Sedan into a Sedan."
Great.
It's really a shame because I love how the M4 looks, but I honestly don't know if I could get over the M4 badge, as shallow as that sounds.
*disclaimer* I know car manufactures are selling to the masses, not fringe enthusiasts such as myself that like raw, loud, low, and slightly uncomfortable cars.
I'm waiting for the 9 series. Heck, they already have 1-8 series already covered.
Also that 9 series must come in FWD configuration and weigh no less than 4500lbs.
Would Steve McQueen drive a modern Porsche? Somehow I doubt it (but Porsche sure wants you to think so if you've walked into a dealership lately). I see McQueen in a Lotus or similar.
"lots of things designed to keep you from actually doing anything interesting behind the wheel..."
Wow...that's wide open to interpretation... The ironic thing about it, is that most if not all of the "spirited driving" (I think that's what you were talking about) is technically illegal (and pursued by the poh-lice), while all the "info-tainment" distractions are at least, if not more dangerous and mostly go unnoticed...
Yea well was at the dealer the other day as well and got stopped in my tracks by the new Audi RS7. Really nice looking car but DANG that is a huge vehicle.
I think Audi has made some absolutely gorgeous cars the last couple years. If I didn't have personal experience with the brand I'd almost be tempted to buy one.
I hear where you are coming from. When I compare the size of my 1990 E30 (may she rest in peace) to the current 3 series there is no comparison. I bet the current one-series is even bigger than my E30... 170.3 inches & 2800 lbs for the E30 and 3185 lbs and 170.4 inches for the 2015 125i.
Count me as one who has owned 2. I liked them both, quite a lot.
I went to BMW for my bride when Audi stopped with the full maintenance service included in the price for the first 50k.
The A6 2.7 quatro 4 door with blizzaks would go ANYWHERE, and it was quiet, and fast. Great family car.
Now if only it felt like an E30.. I haven't driven any of the 1 series so I couldn't say.
My 318is also had a RIP type ending, thanks to my brother and his attempt at rallying on some gravel roads when I wasn't home.
Actually I found the original 1 to have a very similar feel to my ex-e30s. So much so that I almost bought one. I haven't seen the new 2 in person to get an idea of how much weight it's now put on.
Sorry about your e30, that sucks. I wrecked my first iX on a gravel road, though I was uncharacteristically
not
having fun with it as that was the first time I had that car on that road. Broke both control arms and really learned about the classic iX rust when we found the base of the A-pillars actually separated from the rest of the frame. I have no idea how I managed to drive it as far as I did to get it to my body shop after the accident.
The second I gave up on after the heater core hose let go after I'd already poured a ridiculous amount of money into it trying to fix water leaks in the cabin and prior accident damage (they used masking tape to "fix" a hole!). It was a stupid thing to give up on the car over if you look at just that issue, but it was just the final straw.
I'm currently denying my iX addiction, but eBay and CL keep calling to me...
To bring it slightly back to topic, it always bugged me how little the e30s resembled my wife's e90 when they would sit next to each other. The e90 dwarfed them and I would swear they weren't related if I didn't know better. The e30s were also a lot more fun to drive than her e90 is. 20ish years were not good to the 3 series.
I picture James Dean driving a Smyth G3F, Hennessey Venom GT, or something like that - definitely not something you'd find 50 of on the lot.
I think the most disappointing car I've bought in my life was my X5 diesel. The diesel engine was the only good thing about that car - everything else was terrible. I was not expecting an Elise-like experience from a 3-ton vehicle, but...it was the first car I've ever seen with an electronic parking brake, and that feature is representative of everything else about it. The headlights swiveled in turns, which was useful, as that was the ONLY indication provided to the driver that it was changing direction.
Maybe the commercials had me expecting too much from "the ultimate driving machine" - but that experiment was short-lived.
I miss my e30 non-M3 both in the m42 and m20 flavors. I have a e30M3 but now that it's in collector's status, it's pretty much in storage doing KK duties.
It certainly was one of those odd 80's styling ques
I definitely enjoyed my 318is more than the 325i(s), such a fun and snappy little car. I envy you for having an M3, and the longer I wait the quicker they're moving out of my price range.
I still kick myself in the junk for selling my e30 M3 12 years ago. Back then I bought it for 9K. Polar silver with red interior. Now you can't even get close to anything less then 25k and that's with high miles.
Pristine low mileage and unmolested examples are typically bringing in $30-$60k.
Here's a specialized dealer:
http://enthusiastauto.com/qsearch/?f...1D=18&1574_0=1
That's an M3 and yes those are insane when a roller will go for $15-20k. The one I linked to is a plain 325i
Speaking of M3 e30s, the search that found that overpriced pile also found someone with a BIN of $100k for an e30 M3! I really wish I had picked up a few back when clean ones were going for $15k
this is why I intend to keep my v12 e34 and don't plan to get too far from 1990-2002/5 in terms of my own choice cars
there are plenty of wonderful machines built before the Iphone/android era kicked in (it is weird, I should like all that $h1-te, as I am only 28, but I hate all that electronic nonsense, making every housewife and pregnant teenager into wannabe senna/shumaher/loeb/mcrae etc)
in my terms I like the 996 very much, finally made it road legal in my country, have the local number plates on, and I really do love it, even though it doesn't have touchscreens, dsc, runflat tyres and all that crap I (personally) actually don't need
if things go good this year I will add e46M3 as a winter bomb, and in further future I want to taste 550maranello
porschewise a 996 gt2 gt3 would be my choice of throwing away money
my 2 cents.
That's
exactly
what I'm talking about! I didn't even bother reading the ad, and from the 4 pictures alone I looked at I would say it's a 2K car assuming it runs.
Here in WI it's probably a $4k car because we suck in terms of having "cool" cars available for purchase.
The last time I was in the game that was a 500-1500 car tops. Cracked dash, cloth interior, comfort seats, bad paint/mismatched panels, panels not aligning, and it is all just from those 4 pics!
There was local Importer selling a Spanish 325iXT for $16k a few weeks ago. I was gonna jump on it until I found it was already spoken for and I thought that was a good deal for importing a car that never made it here, but now I think $16k would have been a damn steal for such a rare beauty!
don't blink. My youngest turns 18 in a month and it seems like 3 days ago they could have been riding in the back of a 911. Actually they probably would fit back there now too, but we have plenty of cars with real back seats so I have never tried.
that had overhead shots of an RS spyder... probably an RS60 and a Boxster meeting up on some stretch of PCH
the RS looked to be close to half the size of the Boxster
I've also owned two. The first was a 2001 Allroad Quattro with the 2.7T engine. It would definitely go anywhere. The same is true of our current Audi, a 2014 SQ5. It's currently sporting 19" wheels with Nokian Hakkipeliita tires. Unstoppable.
FWIW, the Allroad went for over 170K miles before it became too expensive to keep.
The Lancias we got in the states were nothing like the ones in Europe. The Delta Integrale wasn't just a tarted up street car, it was a real but gentrified world class world champion rally car. A new Golf R would probably beat it on the track today...in the same way a lot of modern cars would trump an old original 911 RS. But for sheer sexiness nothing beats the old ones.
A comparison,
1967 911 is 63.4 inches wide and 163.9 inches long
1987 911 is 65.0 inches wide and 168.9 inches long (non turbo)
1997 911 is 65.0 inches wide and 167.7 inches long (993 non S model)
1999 911 is 69.5 inches wide and 174.5 inches long (996 non S model)
2007 911 is 71.2 inches wide and 175.6 inches long
2008 911 is 71.2 inches wide and 174.3 inches long
2013 911 is 71.2 inches wide and 176.8 inches long
The Porsche 550 is 61 inches wide and 141 inches long
The 986 Boxster is 70.1 inches wide and 171 inches long
1967 911 is 2271#
1987 911 is 2866#
1997 911 is 3064#
1999 911 is 2910#
2007 911 is 3031#
2008 911 is 3031#
2013 911 is 3042#
The Porsche 550 is 1301#
The 986 Boxster is 2756#
So just as we have heard from time to time, the 996 was a jump up in size from the 993, but the weight actually dropped marginally.
Then as the size increased again for the 991, weight did not really change.
Since they are making larger cars without increasing weight, it does make me think Porsche could produce a smaller 2,500-2,600 Lb sports car fairly easily.
The technology is there and weight saving materials are being used more frequently by all auto manufacturers (aluminum Ford F-150 anyone?).
As cool as it would be to see a 2500-2800lb sports car from Porsche, I can only imagine the cost...
1) How many would they sell? 2500lb means almost no creature comforts which would eliminate most potential buyers. The less they make the more it would probably cost, as they'd have to recoup the development costs with fewer units being sold.
2) How expensive would it be to have an all aluminum car peppered with carbon fiber bits? Body shop repair costs? Nobody wants their brand new toy to be totaled in a 3mph fender bender..
Now, if only they could make a mid or rear engine car similar to the BRZ/FRS...
The Alfa Romeo 4C is 2500 lbs. Uses a turbo charged four cylinder engine and has a top speed of about 150...more than fast enough for public roads. It holds the same two people as the Boxster and Cayman...a little less luggage space...uses a dual clutch transmission with paddle shift and all the other gizmos. Price in lauch version for the mid sixties and when the base model comes out in a couple of months it will be in the fifties.
Obviously if the Italians can do it, so can the Germans...but maybe this territory is being left for down market Audis and VWs. If the Alfa takes sales from the Audi TT then you can bet they'll be taking sales from the Cayman and Boxster...new and used.
Porsche needs to remember its VW roots and "think small."
All this e30 talk. I still own a 91 325ic. That car is such a joy to drive very hands on! I agree M3 e30's are out of control. Prices have been driven up past reasonable.
Car sizes follow the size of people, and Americans are getting fatter faster than the rest of the world. In 1950s 180lb-190lb man would have been considered "big"; Rocky Marciano (World Heavy Weight Boxing Champion in 1950s) was under 190lb. Today, 190lb is average weight for the out-of shape office dwelling guy.
So, it is only natural that cars are getting fatter to accommodate the fatter population. Watch movie Wall-E to see where this is all heading. Before long, mobility scooter and disability by obesity will be the norm.
Average adult Americans are about one inch taller, but nearly a whopping 25 pounds heavier than they were in 1960, according to a new report from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). The bad news, says CDC is that average BMI (body mass index, a weight-for-height formula used to measure obesity) has increased among adults from approximately 25 in 1960 to 28 in 2002.
The report, Mean Body Weight, Height, and Body Mass Index (BMI) 1960-2002: United States, shows that the average height of a man aged 20-74 years increased from just over 5'8" in 1960 to 5'9 and 1/2 in 2002, while the average height of a woman the same age increased from slightly over 5'3" 1960 to 5'4" in 2002.
Meanwhile, the average weight for men aged 20-74 years rose dramatically from 166.3 pounds in 1960 to 191 pounds in 2002, while the average weight for women the same age increased from 140.2 pounds in 1960 to 164.3 pounds in 2002.
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/health...tallbutfat.htm
Not really, BMW and others (Range Rover/Audi/Ford) have been able to shave off quite a bit and still retain creature comforts while increasing rigidity.
VW/Porsche has also bought quite a few shares in to Carbon Fiber companies but it does puzzle me a bit on why they haven't been using that and aluminum as much as companies like BMW which costs less.
The Alfa that John mentions a couple of post back is indeed lightweight, but from reviews that I have read, it is pretty crude and loud. Not the type of car our 996s are as far as all-day usability. I am not knocking the Alfa and I am glad to see someone making such a car.
But, I don't think that 2,600 lbs would necessarily mean a crude and loud car to the extent of the Alfa.
It might be a bit pricey at first, but use of lightweight materials in cars, aluminum primarily and carbon fiber secondarily, is becoming common and the price of these materials is quickly coming down. Engine technologies and creative engineering also play into more HP and stiffer chassis with lighter weight.
For cost control, there would need to be a "corporate chassis" to defray the development costs across a couple of car lines.
And as pointed out above, it may be that Audi or VW will be the brand(s) that end up with such a car instead of Porsche.
A true 550 successor would be a sweet car.
I had actually forgotten about the 4c.. What are the mark ups here in the states (aka out the door price)?
I would love to see more manufactures start making enthusiast geared vehicles (light weight, hard core, etc). I guess what I'm thinking is, people buy Porsches because they want an all around DD/sports car kind of ride. Would there be a market for a lightweight version of a Cayman/911 at whatever cost they could provide it for? I mean, the 911/Cayman is already so good, would it be worth it to people to buy a separate version of those cars?
The hardcore track guys who are currently drooling over the new Cayman GT4 might be interested in something like that...
It will be interesting to see how Alfa Romeo does in the US with the 4C. I owned an Alfa Romeo Spider Veloce a long time ago, and the support system in the US wasn't good. I believe my local Volvo dealer was also the Alfa dealer, and my 1979 Spider spent lots and lots of time there. In the Denver metro area where I live now, Alfa Romeo will be sold and serviced by the Ferrari dealer.
I've had several Lotus cars, which are super light and powerful, but it's not anything useful for regular use in my opinion. A blast for sure, but I can't imagine the new Alfa will do any sales numbers beyond what Lotus can sell.
One way or another vehicle weights have to come down if we are to meet the aggressive mileage standards on the horizon.
If you look at cars from the 1960s they were huge in comparison to what was put out in the 1970s because of fuel rationing. We may not have exactly the same outcome here but I do expect that vehicles will change to accommodate.
I think the Alfa 4C crudeness is simply that it doesn't have the very things we complain about. As for the loud exhaust, the number of 996 owners who put on louder exhausts tells me that most enthusiasts would not complain at hearing their engines sing.
A look at the outlaw 356 replicars...particularly the A coupes by JPS Motorsports is a perfect blueprint for what Porsche could make. And the replicars have the rear seat, ac, and power windows. They've also moved away from old VW engines and are using Subaru boxers.
I had hoped the Boxster would be a new 550 but that dream was quickly disposed of. If Porsche can make the rear weight bias of the 991 work today, it could make a hot new 356 just as easily. 140 mph top end? Composite body/chasis, turbo four banger with 5 speed transmission (I can't believe six or seven gears are really needed except as overdrive). Forget all wheel drive, forget pdk, forget power seats and electronic controls for the engine bay, trunk and emergency brake. As a design, a 4/5ths 993 would be an agreeable package.
If they brought out that car at $55 to $60k they'd have trouble keeping up with the demand.
The early Boxster model that's on display at the Porsche Museum does look like the "new 550". It looks much better than the original Boxster that made it to production.
If Range Rover can shave off over 700 lbs, there's no excuse that Porsche can do the same. It's just their been counters and corporate greed holding them back IMO.
Interesting to see the length of the 996 being so much larger (a few inchs) than the past, now the 911 cars seem to bench mark the 996 (until the 991), in size, so the 997.1 &.2.
I'm curious how much my C2 weights once the cats are out, I guestimate 2800 or so (anyone know of scales in Michigan I can weight it on?), and about 320 chp. Still a ton slower than my 86' 951, but more creature comforts and fun.
Exactly, glad I'm not the only one seeing this.
I was telling my wife the same thing, new 3-series is about the same size as our old e39 5-series.
Agreed, hate to see how much the size of 911 has grown compared to the previous models.
Making the car bigger and sneaking the engine forward is how they make the car manageable without adding ever-wider tires. Since the Cayman and Boxster handle better, the differentiation has to be with more HP - and adding HP to a 911 without finding more ways to tame oversteer would kill Porsche's clientele.
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