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YOUR RESEARCHMy turn in the barrel is over......
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Install once i get the car
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
I have an OEM aerokit in the garage to be fitted once I get the car.
Leading evidence: 'Install once i get the car' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'more than he bargained' (1 discussions; 0 report identifying it and 1 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Adjust their machines' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
The pic in the garage was after I changed the wheels out.
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Since the transmission, clutch AC or pretty much anything else can't be tested, there needs to be a discount for that too.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
30' from the chassis dyno I have two engine dynos that are used for development.
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Suggestion
Hint: number, 5 letter word (descriptive only), number, abbreviation for a large measurement of electricity, although there is some debate as to the correct spelling of said measurement - which would change the first abbreviated letter to one with the capacity to sound the same.
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Suggestion
Building a 4 liter and keeping a stock ECU IS GOING TO create a rich running condition that will wash down cylinders of oil, increase fuel intrusion and ultimately lead to a compromise.
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Suspected cause
With more engine rebuild alternatives at different price points, it's more likely an owner will be willing to rebuild his/her car as opposed to dumping the roller.
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As some of you know my saga with my 996....spun bearing....put in donor motor...intermix....cracked head.....Flat6 fixed.....sold a very well sorted car to cool guy up North in Canada hey.....bought a roller 997S with the intent of planting a 4.0 into it. Well my friends the wait is almost over and the new motor is being assembled at Flat6. I'm giddy like a school girl! Here are photos I got yesterday. I'll post more info when I get it.
[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:]
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/151x220/schwing_display_a51c1d7638bb6c1990fc269f9c5a27f54dea62aa.png
What's with the oil spot on the floor in pic 3?
I always pictured Jake's shop as spotless with men in lab coats who were too afraid of making any kind of mess as Jake's will go full 'jarhead' on them and snap em in two
Nice Pete, I'm jealous (not the least of which being because a battery and state inspection is going down hill really fast for ours
)
Nice parts. Like the modified imtermediate shaft. Not a bad way to spend a wheelbarrel full of cash.
Dynos are never accurate. Should only be used to compare improvements but for that, he would need to test the same car with a stock engine and then under the same conditions, run this engine on the dyno too. The displacement increase alone will give a good boost in power (no replacement for displacement).
People concentrate too much on dyno numbers and that's why many regular dyno shops will adjust their machines to read high. High numbers attract customes because people like to brag about their cars.
Vroom. Vroom.
You guys don't know what it's been like living so close to Pete, and seeing his long, sad face every day.
Can't wait to do the Butt-Dyno test on this car.
Oh, and it probably hasn't helped Pete's long sad face when I open up the PSE and wind up the 996 every time I drive by his house.
I knew it was just a matter of time before someone brought this up.
I know testing can vary but at the same time, they don't vary THAT much to a point where you know you have a 300whp motor or closer to 400whp. Let's not turn this into a dyno thread. It's just that I haven't seen hardly any independent testing of an aftermarket 3.8-4.1L motor here so just curious.
Thanks guys....I'm excited to say the least. The good thing about the wait is that I was able stock up on parts. The 4.0 alone will be at 380 HP. X51 headers, 200 cell cats, Fister sport cans on the bottom side with a GT3 throttle body and IPD Competition plenum on the top side should add more zip. Searching for these parts have been fun. Flat6 will put it on their dyno so I'm interested to see what the add ons bring. I have an OEM aerokit in the garage to be fitted once I get the car. Stay tuned!
Thanks Steve...hopefully within a couple weeks. Hope to have pics of the motor going in the car....that's up to Flat6.
I'm thinking of leaving the badge-less but am thinking about some decals with a 4.0 on it. Something subtle.
Go badges, but a 4.0 designation might be a nice subtle touch. You must be going nuts with anticipation. Time for a cigar and a stiff drink while walking around your garage...
Nah, we don't like telling people what's under the hood.. No windshield banners either. I like it best when no one even knows I've been inside the engine.
The engine will be fully optimized before it leaves here, that means time on my dyno as well as 150 test miles, along with my live tune- if it needs it.
Bigger is only better if it's optimized.
FYI
That's not an oil spot on the floor... It's where our feet have worn through the epoxy floor coating from standing in the same circle for years. Every time I start to redo the coating I change my mind, because of the reality and character that it gives the room. Most people any imagine that any work gets done in that room, because it's too clean. The worn out floor proves it.
Here's a teaser photo of my engine room at the research facility.
And the display case... Too bad the only people that ever see it are the ones who attend my classes :-)
This is MY lair, no one else works here.
What I am working on today.... 200HP engine install into this 56' Speedster Outlaw. Excuse the clutter, been doing some cut, chop, modify on this one.
I can't function around clutter.. I can't even stand it if things are out of the cabinets or drawers..
That's why I have to work alone. 5,300 sq ft and the doors stay locked!
Well after a great Easter w/e up in Milwaukee visiting family culminating with a traditional German meal last night at Mader's........Pork Shank smothered in sauerkraut with sides of red cabbage and potato dumplings and a lot of Spaten Oktoberfest........it's time for some more pics! Looks like the motor is put together and awaiting long block status. Happy Easter guys and GO BADGERS!!
OK!! More pics from Jake and FSI. You can actually go to their FB page and see the progress. Amazing to think of all the inter-workings that you don't see from these.
Hey Pete, you won't be sleeping
very well from here on in...WAITING for your 997 C2S that's been warmed over by Flat6
. I think I can here the engine running!
It does without issue, BUT it is a seasonal maintenance item. Ltusler used one with a 400+ HP 3.8 of mine for 4 seasons before it finally failed... And when it failed, it took the entire engine with it.. But that was over 5,000 race miles. Now he has a 4 liter, too and 450HP.
We refuse to alter the AOS at all for any street car; its an emissions component and has to conform to the law.
The engine is stabbed in the car, will be running tomorrow before noon. The car has been sitting for more than a year inside my storage facility, so we had to drain the fuel, and purge the lines before starting it. That slowed us up a bit.
Here it is going in the hole...
IIRC, weren't you developing some dual diaphragm version awhile ago? Has that development stopped and been scrapped? I thought I heard you say you were using a different AOS on some of your motors before. Is this not the case any more?
Not living area, classroom, break room, and sample room. Its his training center, been there twice. I highly recommend it for all of your MXX, 9XX, and DFI training needs.
Full track cars get a different solution. I have a couple different ways of doing it.
Ltusler is correct on the shop building... I didn't want something that stuck out in the countryside, so I decided on a garage apartment for the concept. It has worked out great. I started to make it look like a large barn, but the layout didn't work well enough. This layout is perfect!
Basically I play here daily and have one class per month. It doubles as storage for my fleet and a place to build a few engines per year too. Primarily I am doing R&D here. I don't live there, but I can make it to the shop from my house in 42 seconds on my old Honda 200X 3 wheeler :-)
"I don't live there, but I can make it to the shop from my house in 42 seconds on my old Honda 200X 3 wheeler :-) "
Anything over 40 seconds is unacceptable! you better get to work on that OLD Honda!!!
So a little update. I spoke with Jake yesterday afternoon. All parts that I bought for the motor have been installed. Fisters, new NHP 200 cats, used X51 headers, new IPD 82mm plenum and a used GT3 82mm throttle body. They fired the car up and it spit and cursed. Ran fairly sour. The culprit looks to be the TB. They are swapping it out with another and I hope to hear something today. I'm also reminding myself that this car has sat for some time and stuff happens in the interim. Stay tuned!
Nothing wrong with that, we all gotta skimp somewhere to get other things. I'd rather you cheap it out on that so you can get good tires.
Not sure where you shop or look but new 997 GT3 TB's can be had for around $265 shipped. Cheaper than non gt3 tb's.
I remember seeing it from a few vendors before when I was contmplating on upgrading my IPD to the GT3 version.
Here's one example:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-997-...p2054897.l4275
All is well, its happy and healthy and went for a 10 mile drive today and saw the first 3 thermal cycles. Tomorrow it'll see 2 more thermal cycles and then Monday the first 55 mile stint up and down the mountain. It'll thermal cycle twice Monday as well, then it;'ll see the dyno for some baseline part throttle runs Tuesday morning, then a thermal cycle and then 5 full power runs that afternoon.
That will tell us IF it will need a tune, and then where I'll need to tune it with these sub- systems. The car will then be tested the remainder of the week, if it needs my tune that usually takes 3 days on the dyno to get it perfect with a few runs and thermal cycles everyday. The last piece is the final 55 mile drive followed by my invasive inspection, and a baseline used oil sample.
The throttle body was junk, swapped it and all was well right off the bat.
Too easy and generic.. I have another 200X core engine that I want to build up with an LN cylinder, my own cam and some trick head work. That whole swapping another engine on doesn't do it for me, I'd rather build the little beast my way and give it some real character.
Here'e the beast, barn find where it had been since 1985! Note the twist throttle, that makes it a lot more fun!
Tbey are not THAT dangerous. I've ridden an 200 and a 250 many times. You have to do something idiotic to flip it. My kidneys liked the 250, is had rear suspension.
Wow, you mean even with a .2 liter bump in displacement, massaged heads, a throttle body, plenum, X-51 headers, and stock-ish exhaust, the car doesn't need bigger injectors, and
possibly
not even an ECU tune?
I know I'm coming from a world of forced induction (I had to go from 320cc to 450cc injectors [and a tune, of course] on my R53 Cooper S with 222 FWHP), but that sounds pretty crazy. The OE injectors must be pretty huge, and the ECU must be pretty flexible.
Jake, those heads are a masterpiece. Those valves are gorgeous!
Can't wait to see the dyno numbers!
2 wheels in the front is a lot more stable when cornering than 1 wheel front/2 wheel rear combo hence why it can be dangerous if driven hard.
Jeremy has a good demonstration of this on the Reliant Robin...
Rolling a Reliant Robin - Top Gear - BBC - YouTube
3 wheelers are rad. My twin bro and I cartwheeled a number of them over the years.
Nothing like pushing the rear end around in turns crossing up the bars.
Pete, getting close huh? Track season is here... Just sayin
Ha no kidding. I need to do some break in first. And not willing to break a warranty. I haven't tracked sine April 2013 when the original motor went kabloom...so yep it's killin' me.
Yes of course 2 wheels in the front are a lot more stable. BUT have a look at where the driver is sitting in that clip and the large mass that's above him. The Honda Big Red's are not THAT unstable. If yo wear a helmet, you should be just fine if it ever flips.
I bet most of the fatalities had no helmets. They are as safe as a Corvair or a 911 without stability control.
If I was (Pete) waiting for my warmed over 997 2CS coupe, along with other goodies from a reputable Porsche go to guy/business, I'd want to be distracted somehow to get my mind off of how sweet that massaged 911 is going to be. Any ideas?
Steve, I'm trying to keep my mind on other things but it's not working. I have counted my spare change jar 47 make that 48 times, formed my empty cigar boxes and bourbon bottles into a Porsche crest on the front lawn. My wife caught me spooning with the aerokit the other day and I have temporarily turned the 3rd radiator kit into a hooka pipe. And now I blurt out an occasional "SERENITY NOW!".
All said, I really did have a dream two nights ago that I was driving the car.....the wait is worth it.
Lets just say that I only post about 5% of what I could post.
As far as 3 wheelers go, well I'll take one any day over a 4 wheeler. I grew up on 3 wheels and have had my share of crashes. I've launched over live power lines before and have done lots of dumb stuff with minimal "sheet time". It took years to respect the machine like I do today. I keep it under 65 MPH on my driveway and I even wear a helmet (sometimes). I seldom do more than a 50 yard wheelie.
This 200X is a lot more nimble and responsive than a big red. They always seem a little clumsy to me. The 200X has full front and rear suspension, too. I love riding this beast! It needs a cam, some port work and a compression bump first and foremost. Nothing stays stock around here for very long.
Well, that's why you're in the enviable position of being one of the best when it comes to building these cars.
My friends have been in enough accidents on ATVs to tell me that I'm better off on two ...
Just an update.....
The replacement TB fixed the rough running issue. I got a teaser sound bite of the car being driven this past week.......me likey. The car has been on the dyno a few times during the ECU tuning process with more tuning to come this week to max it out and get the motor running tip top. Early signs are all pointing to a large cowbell stuffed in the rear of the car.
Very pleased with this one so far... I have put 110 miles on it so far and three dyno sessions. Without a tune we broke the 310RWHP barrier on the first pull.
Pete decided to have me optimize it for manners, and that process is underway.
He had to remind me that this is to be his daily driver.. Tuning it for torque and efficiency above all else.
It has a linear power band... Doing all the things I expect it to do at this stage..
I made 3 more tune files for this one over the weekend.. I'll see what it does tomorrow and Tuesday.
The weather is supposed to be clearing up after 2 weeks of rain, so I'll try for another mountain blast for 55 more miles on it Tuesday.
I need experience
You'll get to see this complete and total rookie tear his car up! I think I'm in good shape - grabbing a helmet later today. Maybe get that rusty green Dodge "tow truck" ready in case I can't contain my excitement in the corners.
You will have a great time and your car will love you for it.
Wish I could go.
Can't wait to see Pete out on the track too.
I think Jake is having too much fun "developing" Pete's car.
The car originally was in CA for the 1st 5 years of its life. 2nd owner brought it to Boston........never garaged it. Winter 2013/14 the car suffered scored cylinders. The car was sold to Jake in April 2014 and the rest is history. I found a pic of the car on 6speed from last Winter. This is the actual car.
So for an update!!!! Final dyno is 326.9 at the wheels. TQ at the wheels is the low 280's. Today is an invasive inspection of the motor and if alles ist gut it comes on home.
And that's the big question. Not willing to get into a dyno #'s debate....and I know you are not going there. I know there is a loss of power from the motor to the wheels. How much? Dunno. I've googled it. There are conversion calculators and different car forums offering formulas to get to HP at the crank. I'm thinking the loss is say 20% so if there is 327 at the wheels divided by .8 that comes to 408 HP. But I could be way off base. My butt will tell me
I am interested in ways to calculate it though.
There's no debate here. 30' from the chassis dyno I have two engine dynos that are used for development.
On many occasions I have pulled an engine off the engine dyno and installed it the same day, then tested it on the chassis dyno. I know what my engines make at the flywheel based from the data I have derived from these sorts of back to back comparisons that have been done dozens of times. I do not rely on hearsay from forums, generic calculators or anything other than our direct experience under this roof to know the figures from flywheel to rear wheel power.
I will not post my percentages because it will stir debate amongst people who have never operated either a chassis dyno, or an engine dyno. I do my R&D for our benefit, and the benefit of those who believe in us enough to make a purchase. I don't do all of this to share it openly.
The things that impact chassis dyno numbers are all the variables in the drivetrain, to include gear oil, brakes, rear wheel alignment (camber makes a huge difference) and tire type. Pete's car has snow tires on it now, which suck power down like mad by themselves.
His engine is making exactly what it should have. Before tuning it performed in the top 2% of all the engines we have built with this base combination, after tuning its still in the top 5%. I was shooting for 330 RWHP so it wopuld be the strrongest to date with this base combo. I could have gotten it to 330 IF I were to compromise drivability and would have leaned it out more past VVT changeover.
Here the dynos we have are tools, I won't ever allow net numbers to compromise the overall drivability and performance of an engine. When i first had a dyno, around 18 years ago I learned really quickl that the easiest way to lose everything is by comparing peak numbers.
Today I don't give a damn about peak numbners and because of that the area under the curvce will sometimes pick up 40-50 HP more than the engine makes at peak. That area under the curve is what is being used every time the car is driven. Thats why its the most important.
if I hand someone a dyno graph and I watch their eyes be directed straight to peak HP, I know everything I need to know about that person and what they are looking for. They typically will not appreciate anything that we create here.
Care to give us some delta points at certain rpm's on what Pete's motor does vs. an avg stock 3.8L S motor you've had strapped to your engine dyno? You pick the points (3k, 4k, 5k, 6k, 7k, etc).
I am probably going to wish I hadn't done this.. But I'll try it anyway.
Before you go looking at the stupid freaking, near worthless peak numbers, please note that I have maintained the same RPM range as that of a stock engine while adding over 200ccs to it. This is NOT easy to do as bigger engines tend to inherently move the RPM range down for both Tq and HP.
It takes a lot of time with internal mods to CR, port flow, camshaft timing and tuning to maintain these same power ranges with a larger engine. This is especially true with the 3.8 heads which are the least efficient of all the late engines. This is further crippled by the 3.8 cams, which get a lot more duration at lower lift than the others, but lose this as the lift increases. This was clearly an intentional handicapping of the engine by the factory to keep it further from the GT3 in peak HP output at high speed. When I take one of the 4.0s thats built from a 3.8S engine to a Stage III (Pete is Stage II) I use my R51 heads which are NOT based from a 3.8 head casting, and I also throw away the factory cams.
Now, look at how the 4 liter stomps the pants off it at every RPM range, yet has the exact same curves and peaks. What this means to Pete is he has no need to go past 6,500 RPM; doing so over works the valve springs and puts excess heat in the oil. Not that our springs care, they are designed to dampen our lightweight valves to 9,000 RPM.
The Stock 3.8 file was gathered on the day before Pete's test was done. It was a stock 3.8 that came to us with 16K miles for preventative work to be carried out. It was 100% factory, but very healthy with a fresh tune up and service. It made the same figures we always see from a 3.8 in stock form, and was a mid- pack performer. The most I have had a stock 3.8 dyno at here was 290 HP.
Here's 3 plots to put things into perspective. I never share dyno graphs, because people get too bitchy, so if you get bitchy I'll delete these to and won't post any more, so STFU and learn!
Exactly... Glad you said that, it's exactly what I shot for during the design and build of this one.
I told Pete that when he wants a little less manners and 40 more HP that he can send it back :-)
And the slope gets more slippery yet.........and I haven't even sat in the car......ever. Just waiting to hear from Jud on delivery. I'm sure he'll contact me today.
Very Nice. Thanks for sharing Jake.
To clarify, I wasn't expecting any dyno's. That's the reason why I phrased the question as I did so Jake can point out a few rpm points of his choice that he felt had the most impact from the 4.0 conversion, whether it be below the curve or any peak numbers. Now we know that it has impact everywhere throughout the whole range.
Another good move is to keep power down below and keeps revs down as this is ultimately a street engine and it should last the life of the car and not measured in hours like race cars where their motors only lasts a short while. Pete, it could feel weird shifting at 6500. lol.
I'm not expecting an answer on this one but I'm curious as to know if a stock 3.8 S ecu has the ability to adapt to a 4.0 increase in displacement or if major ecu tuning rework is needed. I know Pete's situation was a bit different as he added on aftermarket bolt ons.
I'll say this:
The initial dyno runs for Pete's 4.0 engine with a bone stock ECU were able to yield around 307 RWHP, but the engine was very rich at changeover and above. It had dipped into the high 10:1 AFR values. The ECU is one part of the equation when it comes to DME compatibility. The hardware thats used is the biggest contributor.
We basically picked up 20HP with tuning, but ended up with optimized AFR; which over the long term will be the biggest benefit. Building a 4 liter and keeping a stock ECU IS GOING TO create a rich running condition that will wash down cylinders of oil, increase fuel intrusion and ultimately lead to a compromise.
Pete, Jud is calling you now about shipping.
I won't let him... Doing that during break in is an almost certain way of extending the break in period.. A long trip on a fresh engine is not part of my break in regimen.
Also, if he picks it up he'd owe Geirgia sales tax which isn't fair to him.
Shipping saves him a lot of money while allowing my break in to occur without compromise.
Jake, considering that I just added a new Macan S to my stable which is still in break-in period, I'd be interested to hear your break-in regimen. I'm sorry if it's slightly off topic
.
Thanks in advance!
just read this thread for the 1st time to the last page. damn. damn. and more damn! I want one...****!!!
luv the Eagle Globe & Anchor in the Garage, just 10 times bigger than mine!
m
Just like the feminine form, it's about shape of the curves, not the size of them.
My FSI 3.8 has more grunt anywhere in the rev range than a stock C2S, thanks to Jake's handiwork.
Spent the weekend at Brainerd International getting to know my new 4.0 Stage 3 from Jake, had some small teething problems last year, but all are solved now. Every time I take it out it just gets better. It seems to just jump out of corners. And down the main straight, I saw 156 indicated a couple of times, that is at 7k in 5th gear. I club race and there were a number of my fellow racers to chase or lead around in the run group. One was a 996 cup, he can out brake me on the backside, but down the main straight I am on him at the end. Then there is a really nice newer Cayman turbo and we are pretty much neck and neck around the track. So all around the car makes for a pretty good showing for itself. Now if the nut between the steering wheel and the seat would learn to drive, things could be even better.
I think a large point that everyone misses in the whole debate on Jake is that its not just him up on the mountain fixn' broke motors and charging a bunch of money. He has assembled of team of very talented specialists that create the whole package for each car. The block, the internals, the heads, the valve train, the ECU, the exhaust, the oil, etc. are all gone though, developed and matched to bring out the best that can be had in these particular engines or whatever he is developing.
I know that some of you consider me a fan boy of Jake's, and that's fine with me. I met him when my original X51 engine broke the crank, that was when nobody else was rebuilding these and Jake was just really getting rolling on the water cooled stuff. He built a 3.8 for me and we made a mistake by not changing a part and paid the price. Now the new 4.0 he created has all of the knowledge gained and applied in years and engines since and we are back at it again. So you can call me whatever you want. Just don't call me late to the starting grid!
Yes there are other builders, yes they do excellent work, yes you like them, but there is only one Jake. But that's all I need.
So to all of you new FSI engine owners out there welcome aboard!
Well then you need to make a visit!
For an update the car is complete and sitting. Scheduling a transport with the snap of finger is not always that easy. Worst case I'll the car a week from today.....best case is ANYTHING better!
Serenity Now! - YouTube
That would be fun for a weekend! Maybe next time Super-cross hits Indi, I'll fly down for it!
First thing I thought seeing that clip was the "he stopped shorrrrtt!!" episode, classic Seinfeld.
Yeap, definitely going to make sure I hang onto the Cayenne. Then I can do my own transport
You're a better man than I Pete. I would have killed someone by now
Oh don't fool yourself...I've thought plenty hard about driving my rusted-pick-me-up 10 hours to get the car. My wallet says nada. You see I did two transactions in GA. First I bought the roller and second I bought an improvement to the first.....both tax free. If I go there and pick it up I'm socked with taxes. I'd rather buy more stuff for the car that I have never sat in.
And now for a brief interlude.....
Swim Daily Exclusive: Kate Upton Wearing Nothing But Paint! - YouTube
COASTAL CAR TRANSPORT (
www.coastalcartransport.com
) . Owned by my brother working with a variety of carriers. BBB and 5-star rated.
(Although I just got annoyed seeing that he doesn't have the Porsche badge on this website. I'll set him straight!
)
So where do we find these 997.1 (or even 997.2) rollers? I briefly looked at the 997 forum but didn't see any. It's not like there's a blown engine thread everyday there.
Autotrader also returned nothing, not even a roller Boxster or 996.
I think RND should start a sister company that sells these rollers to pair with their RND engines.
I'm thinking I was in the right place at the right time and asked the right question. The rollers are out there but I think I lucked out with this one.
There's not nearly as many rollers out there as there used to be. I have bought as many as 20 in one year and held them for builds like Pete's. I can't ever just buy one, fix it and sell it, the risks in doing that are way too heavy at this level where perfection is expected. I always sell the cars to folks who will leave it here for a Flat 6 Innovations engine reconstruction.
This year I've only had 4 cars and all of them are gone. I have a wait list with 25-30 names on it, too.
People are fixing these cars now, buying engines and etc. The market is going to show an uptick soon, guaranteed.
I thought the market was already up. In my limited research I've found that two identical cars 996 vs. 997 have a difference in price of in excess of $15K-$20K. That's not pocket change.
The price of the roller projects will always be dictated by the cost of the replacement of the engine (let's assume they have a blown engine). So if the cost of the used engines or rebuilds goes up with the value of the 996, the roller prices will remain the same.
My thinking is different. With more engine rebuild alternatives at different price points, it's more likely an owner will be willing to rebuild his/her car as opposed to dumping the roller. Also, the RND route allows someone to buy a 997 roller, add an RND engine and still come up ahead of a used 997 (I think it's unlikely for 996 though). Both will deplete the roller inventory in the market. Supply goes down so price should go up. Just my 2 cents.
Ok but if you are buying a roller with a blown engine, it needs to be discounted more than the cost of the engine. Since the transmission, clutch AC or pretty much anything else can't be tested, there needs to be a discount for that too. Maybe they will go up in value but I don't see any sign of it yet.
I think the idea that the 997s and 996s are the last "driver's cars" in the 911 line will either preserve values (997s) or increase them (996s).
10-12 years ago, 964s and 930s were practically worthless, I've seen some of them sell for $3k for a rough example. Now the same car is going for $10-15k.
You won't find a 964 that's rough for less than 20k today... I sold my 930 last year and wish I would have kept it. Been trying to find another that's a little rough but haven't had any luck at all.
We've seen the bottom of the 996 market I am fairly sure... I see more and more people keeping their cars and "restorations" have begun for the 996 already.
FWIW I prefer the 996 over the 997.
I'm still kicking myself for not jumping on that barn-find black 1985 911 3.2 last year for $5,000 on Des Moines Craigslist.
It'd been sitting for 15 years.
Ok guys let's get this back on track. A strong rumor has the car being loaded tomorrow and delivered on Thursday. I'm traveling tomorrow so the timing is perfect. Pics to follow.
BTW.....I sold a 1967 911 with a 2.7 in it for 9K 9 years ago I can only imagine what its worth today. I also sold a 1986 Carrera black on black with a whale tail and front spoiler 6 years ago for 19K. I'd trade my left nut to get these back.
Your level of patience is admirable! I am sure it will be worth it, after all isn't the anticipation at least half of the rush? I've been following this thread and looking forward to hearing about the car when it is in your hands.
On the air cooled - sold my 1968 911 for $3k to an uncle decades ago, missed it as soon as he drove off in it. He kept it in the family and my cousin still owns it.
Years ago when I first talked to Jake he told me about personally driving all the cars/engines that went out of his shop to assure driveability.
Glad to hear he is still doing that.
Tough job Jake, playing with toys others paid for <grin>.
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Damn straight!
I met the transport at Love's Truckstop 7 miles from the house last night at 8:30ish. I saw it from the street while it was still on the trailer and I got goose bumps. Pulled in and there she was. When the car was being taken off the trailer the exhaust note with the Fisters/200 cell cats/X51 headers made my heart beat a bit faster. Once I got in with the car warmed up all I can say is......Sweet Geebus Mother of Pearl!!!
This is really going to be a fun car. It's been a wait alright but damn this is worth it.
Here are a few pics with the car on the trailer and parked where she belongs!
Yeah the wheels......car came with the lobsters. The rubber on them are winter Pirelli's. A few months back Suncoast had a REAL GOOD deals on Carrera Sport II's so I bought and put MSSP's on them. The rear rubber is 305 on 19's. The pic in the garage was after I changed the wheels out. You can see the stack of wheels in the background of the Winter set.
It's currently 79 and sunny here in Hoosierville and I feel a scratchy froat coming on...
okay, okay already......I cant wait to hear the review, runnin' out of popcorn for christs' sake......you mean to tell me with all that track driving experience you can't text and drive???????
LOL
waiting on the verdict!!!!!!!!! C'mon Pete!!!! Say it is so!!!!
He's waiting for his best friend buddy neighbor to drive it before he posts the first official reviews. Last night I heard some noise coming from the east, down towards Pete's house. I text'd him - "Iz dat u makin noise?". Honestly, it sounded like crap, but I thought I should acknowledge his revving up the car. Pete replied "Nope that's the neighbor girlie man and his corvette". I was immediately relieved that it wasn't the new car, and immediately apologized. The neighborhood is back to its state of class and glory with two P-car drivers again.
You guys
gotta love the concern. I drove 2x yesterday to and from work. The car has grunt and a ton of torque between 3 and 6K and it just doesn't stop! Thought I would squeeze the pedal on the highway yesterday and I looked down and I was at 108.....it happened in a flash. Heading out now to give the local retired Fire Chief a little thrill.
Initial review is .....HOREE CLAP! More to come!
ps.....that girlie man Vette guy's car does sound like $hit
Finally Pete! Haven't checked the computer for a couple of days. Beautiful Porsche, love the color...want to "hear" it! Bet you can't wait to drive it and then clean it up after its trip from Georgia.
Freakin' outstanding Pete!!!
May I recommend a personalized plate...
1PT21 JW
Hint: number, 5 letter word (descriptive only), number, abbreviation for a large measurement of electricity, although there is some debate as to the correct spelling of said measurement - which would change the first abbreviated letter to one with the capacity to sound the same.
Cheers :-)
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Your not far off there Alp. It actually was a little less than anticipated but I'm not going blurt what it cost.......no one's business anyway but mine.
+ I was not charged anything for installing the add ons that I sent down. The car came to me clean and detailed.
Me juan happy boi!
Pete is smart... He might wanna sell this car for a profit one day. I'd do the same thing!
A car like this is a rare beast and it takes a year to have one built, so its what someone will pay for it that doesn't want to wait.
It costs what it costs. You pays your money and you takes your chances. You can pay me now or you can pay me later. What matters is the OP got what he wanted and I would suspect more than he bargained for.
Flat Six Innovations does not disappoint, period.
When I called Jake last year I said I was looking for more cowbell. Little did I expect my idea of a cowbell was going to turn out to be a gong. Definitely more power than I expected but very welcome. I found some warp speed on the way home tonight. My body felt like it was on a gforce ride at an amusement park!
It starts early and it never ends.... Doing another 4.0 this week and this pair of heads even beat Pete's on the flow bench.. We'll see which one ends up making the best power with the flattest torque curve!
Oh yeah, this is simply awesome news. Go Pete, Go! Love to hear it! Kudos to Jake, too, once again, the Porsche whisperer.......for bullet proof builds............that go like rockets! Houston, we have lift off!
Pete was so easy to work with...
To think, 4-5 years ago we couldn't stand each other, but circumstances occurred that turned those tables and through adverse conditions (with his old 996) we stayed on good terms. Today we've forged a friendship that I am happy to say occurs over and over again with those that we do business with.
Dealing with Pete has always been a favorable experience, but the first time he called me, after I figured out who he was, I almost told him to go fly a kite! (thats the politically correct term for it anyway!!)
One leaves the barrel...another enters. I'm glad you are out and allowed me to inch up as a barrel newbie!!!...LOL
Congrats again on the completed project Pete- Enjoy the new machine!
I tried browsing the 997 a couple times and that was enough to scare me off with topics like the above. I hope I never run into 997 owners at an event like cars and coffee.
Why not?
Don't you like to have lug nuts that look new?
I might be a little different though, I understand that the 997.1's have a lot more in common with the 996's than what some people think.
That's why I read 996 forum quite a bit.
Mike
It won't be long Sneaky Pete before you decide to leave
the 996 'listers with your fancy 997CS- JR
modified Porsche, so you can hang with the 997 crowd. Be curious to hear their take on your new ride is....
They don't call me "fear monger" and they appreciate what we create quite a bit more. I've never had a disagreement there and haven't ever received hate mail from them... Got another hateful PM yesterday from a 996 forum member.
That it's blasphemous putting a non-stock motor back in it. That he has actually driven it to boot will have them lamenting the devaluation of the car.
That's only because they still have their noses stuck up their own tail pipes believing that they have the first "real" water cooled 911
Besides, some didn't seem to take too kindly to your thoughts on cylinder scoring in the M97 and the 9A1's faults.
Not that I condone the grief you get from the some of the 996 crowd, just saying it doesn't seem entirely nirvana-like over there either
Car is running great. 750 miles so far. I just dropped the car off tonight at the body shop to get the Aerokit Cup mounted. So in the meantime.....I'm the guy in the dark sunglass's
I found some friends at the 500 yesterday.
Well I picked up the car last Friday after getting the Aerokit mounted. The local guys did a great paint match. Ironically I currently have 997 miles on the car and loving it!
I'm thinking this thread has run it's course.......don't worry I'm not closing it. If any of you have questions about the build or my dealings with FSI and Jake please contact me.
So now the obligatory pic
Barn996 this one is for you!
Wow, she's a keeper Pete. Love the look with Aero package. This time your Porsche can really back up its looks on road and track. You waited a long time for this car, and now you can drive it and have a little fun.
The time draws near for me to fall out of the barrel!!
I remember posting the above thinking about the wait that was ahead of me. However; the barrel time has passed relatively quickly, and it has been a pleasure and great experience working with FSI!
Awesome news... pics and let us know what your butt says!
I re-read the thread all over again. This was quite the experience. I'm in the garage with a cigar and a glass of good stuff.
Curious question, where did you find the 997 roller? I have a spare motor from my 996 and am itching to get it back on the road (without taking the hit of selling it to a scrapper for nothing and buying another car).
He got the 997 from me... I have a 2003 996 C4S at the present that needs a heart, too.. Typically I sell these cars to those who want us to build an engine for them, but I am so booked that I'll sell it as is. Its a perfect car, lost an IMS Bearing and the owner gave up on the car.
Max 501, your heart gets reinstalled tomorrow. Its gonna be a bad boy!
Could you please send me details on the roller -- manual/AT, body style, colour, mileage and of course how much you are asking?
And are there are any complications (different flywheel/bolt patterns/major wiring harness changes) in an engine swap from a '02 C2 and the '03 C4S?
Regards,
Julian
Both vehicles use the M96.03 engine designation. This car is a manual. Your engine would be a direct bolt up.
I have stepped away from having anything to do with vehicle sales, its a huge potential liability that I don't need to worry with. Email me at
[email removed]
and I'll get you in touch with the dealer thats handling all vehicle transactions these days. I can't deliver perfection with a used car, so I got out of the transactions before I had a conflict.
