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YOUR RESEARCHUOA: why not to run "regular" oil on track
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Run by summit racing in atlanta
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I am running by Summit Racing in Atlanta on the way down from the mountains Saturday.
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I used the Sunoco pump at VIR, but no, it was just the 93 oct street gas.
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The concept is to trend all values to prevent failures and adjust preventive maintenance if/as required.
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For tack or DE use I highly recommend a suitable RACING oil.
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I'm wondering if using M1 and changing every track day is a good alternative.
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I ran mobil 1 for a track weekend - at the end of a 20 min session - oil pressure was lower than I had ever seen it - maybe understandable - uoa 6 months later was fine - but I didn't check viscosity.
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Just got back my UOA on some Motul 5w40. I did one track day (4 sessions) at VIR Full, then trailered home and drove it around town a bit and to a local autocross. Total mileage was maybe 200.
The only thing out of ordinary on wear metals was that Lead, which for the past 5 years has been between less than 1 and 2 ppm (it was 1ppm at last sample), was up at 7ppm. Is this cause for concern at 83,000 miles?
The additives did okay, as base number was still 8.8, and zinc was 1318ppm.
The viscosity, however, was toast. 11.8 centistokes at 100C. Worst I've had before was 12.9. Coolant temp never elevated during the track day, and the cooling system is all stock.
So, there is my anecdotal evidence. I will spring for a track-specific oil next track day. I will use the rest of my Motul inventory for street and autocross; my samples for that usage have been acceptable.
Exactly what I have been stating for over a decade with these engines on the track. Loss of viscosity due to thermal breakdown, and shear is what kills these engines on the track.
3 chain engines are the worst on killing viscosity, and they also need the viscosity more than any other engine.
You learned something that few ever have.
KK, you could save a sh*t ton of time if you'd just create a keyboard shortcut for [insert gratuitous leg hump here] - you could spend less time typing and more time stalking Jake.
Jake, what is it about these engines (or the chain configuration as you seem to be implying that it is the source) that makes them degrade the oil like this compared to other motors?
My (limited) understanding of oils is that the degradation is a function of the heat and contaminants over time. So I would expect tracking to indeed shorten the lifespan, but by that much surprises me as well as how it apparently differs based on the motor.
No, not really. The fact that you scamper around the Internet quoting the guy and tail him into oil threads to further kiss a$$ is really, really creepy.
Indeed not DT 40. It was XP something I think. I am running by Summit Racing in Atlanta on the way down from the mountains Saturday. I wanted to pick up a case or two.
I ran mobil 1 for a track weekend - at the end of a 20 min session - oil pressure was lower than I had ever seen it - maybe understandable - uoa 6 months later was fine - but I didn't check viscosity. I thought motul was meant to be one of the better oils for these engines ? Perhaps the answer is to run a 5w50 ? ( and for sure to change oil after a track weekend). The bmw m guys spec a castrol 10w60 ...plenty of reserve viscosity ?
What additive(s) are you using? Zinc based additives usually do nothing or hurt your oil's wear portection ability.
Calcium petroleum sulfanate based additives are a completely different story.
Running a thicker viscocity for higher oil pressure is not the solution. Pressure is resistance to flow. Flow is what carries heat away from your plain bearings.
What you want is an oil with a higher fluid film load capacity
Hi Sweet Victory , you better inform Mobil that their Mobil 1 Racing oils have got it all wrong in regards to ZDDP , I just looked up Mobil 1 Racing web site & they list the levels of ZDDP in their racing oils and it very high & interestingly the lower viscosities Mobil 1 Racing oils have the higher levels of ZDDP as compared to the mildly higher viscosities , why would that be the case ?
I have a 40th, so the radiators are normal, but I have better air flow. There is no center radiator. It was cool on track, like 60-75.
Like I said, coolant temps were solid at 185 or so, since I was moving the whole time. Oil pressure seemed really strong too. Even at idle I was always above 2 bar. On track it was 4-5 bar the whole time.
Honestly, no track day can justify the insane cost of dumping good oil, putting in XP9, and then dumping the XP9 to put DT40 or whatever else back in. No track day is THAT fun. I'm just not going to do HPDE days in the 996 anymore. For the cost of a year of HPDE oil changes and tires in the 996, I could buy a Miata every year and just light it on fire each December.
Lol@ the Miata comment. It's so true. But I believe the 40th comes with larger "turbo" radiators and the engine makes ~30hp more (byproduct more heat). Both things relivant to this thread. I'm wondering if using M1 and changing every track day is a good alternative. It would cost about the same as motul 8100...
My point was just because an oil contains lots of zinc, doesn't mean it has good wear protection.
Motul 5w30 racing oil has a fluid film load capacity of about 112.5kpsi with zinc at 1724 ppm. Lucas 10w30 racing oil has a fluid film load capacity of 106.5kpsi with zinc at 2642ppm. Mobil 1 10w40 racing oil has a fluid film load capacity of 93.6kpsi.
Saying an oil has good wear protection because it has lots of zinc is like saying you get more hp because you have more gasoline in your tank. You have more zinc to use up, but having more of it doesnt make your oil better.
Mr. Party, the OP:
Your UOA is actually quite alright.
Any track or DE event will introduce fuel dilution. Fuel in oil is going to lower your KV100 as well as dynamic viscosity. Just follow a hard accelerating car to see why.
Can't see fuel in oil % on your UOA, but I guess it may be elevated which is not that pronounced during street driving.
Even poor oil sampling method or excessive idling will cause the same effect.
UOA's are meant to be condition monitoring tool. The concept is to trend all values to prevent failures and adjust preventive maintenance if/as required.
The lead increase from 1 to 7 is NOT insignificant. I would be concerned if I saw lead at 27 or 37.
On other hand your 83K mile engine would benefit from 50 viscosity oil (or a 50/50% mix of 40 and 50 oils) even for street driving. And you're in FL to add insult to injury.
For tack or DE use I highly recommend a suitable RACING oil. A few come to my mind. Some are actually well suited for daily driving as well. None are "cheap". Yes, get a Miata if you have to.
The heat cycles during racing exceed those of street driving, therefore XXW-50 lubricant would be a better choice even for newer and tighter engines.
None of 5W-50 street oils are going to cut the mustard. Don't even attempt.
Keep in mind that wear metals always come in pairs on UOA's. An elevated single metal wear number only is often contributed to a lab error. I've seen it a lot.
At Mr. Victory,
Two words:
La-z-boy
BITOG
Hey, Jake,
I will buy a One full year of BITOG membership for you if you commit to posting there at least once a week.
Deal?
Well, I already know the answer.....
One more, would you mind posting KV40/100 for DT40 and 50 at your earliest?
Cheers,
Luke
I used the Sunoco pump at VIR, but no, it was just the 93 oct street gas.
Great discussion about film strength vs zinc. I love learning about tribology; UOA is part of my job, but it's with hydraulics so for the most part all we care about is contaminant size and ppm.
This fits in with the advice I received when I first got involved with auto-x-ing. My (professional) auto mechanic buddies all advised me to show up at the event with fresh oil. I'd change the oil a day or two before the event and that was that.
I know some owners want to believe they can drive around in town for may weeks or months and then show up at the track and have a grand old time with no concern but that's just not the way things work.
And from the other side that one can take in a track day with fresh oil and then spend the rest of year putting around with the track oil in the engine with no concern, but that too is just asking for trouble.
So the conclusion is that it would be OK to leave that oil in the car for street use and maybe even do more track days? Or that it's not the oils fault - something similar would happen with a pure racing oil too? Or both/neither?
Not really, the only way to combat fuel dilution is to use higher viscosity oil. Can't fault oil for fuel dilution.
Millers CFS XW-XX NT (pick your fav viscosity)
Motul 300V XW-XX (pick your fav viscosity)
Cheers,
=L=
Thanks for the advice , Mr. Luxter, could you please further advice on Motul 300v variety - what will be better for the M96.3 engine, 300v 0w40, 5w40 or 15w50 ; for long time high speed driving (say, three hours straight on the Autobahn without speed limits with wide open throttle most of the time ?
You guys should pray for a scored cylinder. I have no issues with oil viscosity breaking down because I just add a quart every 40 min of track sessions.
Thanks for the helpful info & quick reply!
I called Millers who encouragingly said the only reason not to use CFS 5W-40 on the street is that it's expensive. I'll also try to ask Motul. Though the lack of Porsche a40 approval does make me a bit nervous. I may get back to them to ask if, when the oil needs toping up and I strangely can't find their racing oil at the local service station, I can safely mix in some other a40 5W-40.
If these oils indeed work fine for a car that is mainly driven on the street, including even a lot of short trips, then they would be the ideal solution. And given the lack of agreement about the best oil in all the oil threads I've been reading, I wasn't expecting to find an ideal solution ... .
Does anyone have any info/experience to the contrary (that it's a bad idea to use these oils for a car mainly driven in the street)???
I don't know which oils are right, but I'm pretty sure that if the situation you have in mind is driving from A to B, 400+ Autobahn miles away, as fast as possible, you will not generate the kind of heat you would on track. There is no way you will be on wide open throttle most of the time, unless you are travelling on Christmas or New Year's Eve, when the Autobahns are empty, and you choose the right ones. And the high air speeds should keep the car cooler than on a track day. You'll also be stopping for gas a few times.
Though I should say that my expectation that the car won't get that hot is based on my experience with another car, which didn't have a big engine stuffed into the trunk. I've yet to cruise at or above 150 mph for long periods with my 996, so please take my advice with a grain of salt.
What I learned about Joe Gibbs/Driven Racing Oils DT40, Motul 300v, and Millers CFS … NT:
According to Driven, DT40 is suitable for daily drivers who sometimes use their cars on track, and it can “take abuse at both ends of the spectrum”. But a few pages pack, 5CHN3LL says “DT40 is strictly for street use”, so it’s hard to feel confident about that.
As for Motul, I emailed to ask if it made sense to use 300v in a street car. They responded that it is not API, ACEA or manufacturers certified, and that if I use it, I would do so at my own risk. Maybe they’re being overly cautious, and their website does say “OEM Approvals : Above existing standards”. But even if I’m just a little cautious, no 300v for me.
On the other hand, Millers’s site says CFS 5w-40 “far exceeds: the requirements of: API: SM, CF; and ACEA: A3 / B4. Which sounds good. Especially the A3/B4 part, which I know Porsche requires that for some Castrol oil(s). On the other hand, sounds like the oil does not meet the newer SN requirement.
Edit: They say they it might or might not meet SN, but haven't thought about it since putting the description on their site (apparently prior to SN becoming the latest standard).
Their site also say the oil is “suitable for fast road or track day use …” – also good. Though as the sentence continues I get a bit confused: “… especially in engines where a 5w30 is normally specified. Suitable for operating at 125�C with peak temperatures up to 150�C.” So it’s less good when a 5w-40 is specified? And less good when the oil doesn’t get so warm? I’m hoping this means something different: If your car wants a 40 grade oil at normal street temperatures, that’s what you get at those temperatures. If your car wants a 30 grade oil at street temperatures, but you are running at 150 on track, it will provide the same thickness, etc., as a 30 grade oil which your car wants (which is what a higher grade oil normally will do at higher temperatures).
Edit: Sounds like 5w-40 would be the right grade of CFS ... NT for street use.
Finally while the “road” part of fast road is good, the “fast” part is less so. It’s not easy to reach track day temperatures on the road, but it’s probably possible if the roads are deserted enough (and probably more so if they are steep and at high altitude). But much though I seek out similar moments, most of my journeys are short and slow. Maybe this means this oil is not for me?
Edit: They say it should be fine for road use, fast or not.
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