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THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHInsuring our M96...
Leading reported evidence
Install incorrectly, has metal/debris in the oil, or neglected
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Any engine will yield the same result when a major component is installed incorrectly, has metal/debris in the oil, or neglected.
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion · Original poster
From a mechanical point of view - let's be honest to ourselves - besides changing oil frequently, inspecting filter and fixing whatever breaks, how on earth you can keep it healthier than some body else?
Leading evidence: 'Install incorrectly, has metal/debris in the oil, or neglected' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, The most frequently discussed action is 'Inspect filter and fixing whatever breaks, how' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
Source reports, not a diagnosis or a success probability. Counts refer to discussions and can overlap.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I run my business on spreadsheets, but not my personal garage.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Happy to pay $30K for that private-party used car, but too cheap to pay the legal amount of sales tax...so let's just fill that in for $2,500...
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that contain suggestions
1
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Suggestion · Original poster
From a mechanical point of view - let's be honest to ourselves - besides changing oil frequently, inspecting filter and fixing whatever breaks, how on earth you can keep it healthier than some body else?
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that contain suggestions
1
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Suggestion · Original poster
I repair my cars, problem with 996 is that engine is worth more than the car.
These are separate views of the same evidence. Frequency alone does not establish a fix, and these counts must not be added together.
Inspect filter and fixing whatever breaks, how
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Discussions that contain suggestions
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion · Original poster
From a mechanical point of view - let's be honest to ourselves - besides changing oil frequently, inspecting filter and fixing whatever breaks, how on earth you can keep it healthier than some body else?
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion · Original poster
From a mechanical point of view - let's be honest to ourselves - besides changing oil frequently, inspecting filter and fixing whatever breaks, how on earth you can keep it healthier than some body else?
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
Now the difference between a competent DIYer versus a reputable shop I think is minimal, but there are plenty of people that take high value cars to quick change places where god only knows what happens.
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Suggestion
When my motor blew, I can guarantee that if I had run over a big rock immediately afterwards, it would have been covered by my regular insurance policy (USAA).
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
81 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
0 evidence records excluded for query context · 0 excluded by outcome qualification · 0 adjusted by outcome qualification.
1 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
Ok, so after few days of reading here of several IMSB failures , which all ended up in countless number of pages - which was a fun read, btw. Just learned about possible misalignment issues which we might have that would cause even LN IMSB go on some engines after not too many miles - harder material of LN bearing in a misaligned situation would be more prone to go bad IMHO.
So I came up with this question - can we buy some sort of insurance on our engines, same as we insure our car in it's entirety ?
In my understanding, these engine will not outlast our cars, like some other brands, more straightforward engines do. Something will $%$%$ up and cause metal shavings which will wash through the whole engine and kill everything in it's path (scaarrryy) , so why not insure it? Sort of a health insurance, but on the engine.
You can buy an extended warranty...there are numerous warranty companies out there.
HOWEVER...the fine print in those warranties can describe what kind of failures are covered and which aren't, and it appears that the likelihood of you finding a warranty that will cover failure due to IMSB disintegration may be low.
Other 996 subscribers: If your warranty covers (or if you believe it covers) IMSB-related failures, can you provide the warranty co. information here for OP's reference?
M96 issues are exacerbated on the internet. Purchase a vehicle from an owner you know who took care of it and that's the best insurance you can get. (Someone who's an enthusiastic, not the type that just posts what sort of watch their wear when they drive)
Any engine will yield the same result when a major component is installed incorrectly, has metal/debris in the oil, or neglected.
Many people choose to do nothing.
Other people choose to do as much preventive maintenance as possible.
Still other people choose to purchase a warranty.
I'm sure OP will be supplied with countless statistics, will hear from the do-nothing crowd that the failure statistics are overblown, and will hear from the preventive maintenance crowd that doing nothing will cost more in the long run than doing something.
Starting yet another "who is right?!?" discussion here doesn't really answer OP's question...
No they're not. Perhaps they're overblown, or overstated, or inflated, or discussed ad nauseam, but to the best of my knowledge you cannot exacerbate engine failure by discussing it online. Which is nice. Otherwise, we'd all have a smoking heap of dead M96 in our garage.
So your theory is that if you buy a car from an enthusiastic [sic] who kept it well-maintained, you will have no issues?
Just so we are on the same page on this - I AM an owner already.
So, purchasing any sort of "extended" warranty (which is a scam from my point of view) is out of question.
And I do all the work on my car. So far, it's healthy. Long term ownership, this is what concerns me.
Owning a house, for example. some day or the other, we call our insurer when we get flooded, burnt or whatever. Owning a M96 makes me feel that we might need that insurance money one day or the other. Cars get older. 12k for an engine is a killer.
The type of insurance you are describing is called a warranty. The fact that you own the car does not preclude you from purchasing a warranty, in the same way that you can buy health insurance at any time. Like health insurance, a warranty will generally not cover preexisting conditions; there will typically be a waiting period that prevents someone with an existing issue from buying a warranty and immediately making a claim. Like health insurance, there may be conditions a warranty doesn't cover or a limit of liability/coverage to cap what the company pays if you make a claim.
Here's a Consumer Reports article discussing extended warranties:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/m...game/index.htm
Of course, your interest is somewhat different than a normal buyer - a normal buyer is worried about some random yet expensive thing happening; you're concerned about a very specific, expensive thing happening.
All you guys are doing it all wrong.
Just keep the regular full coverage car insurance you have. Any signs of engine trouble, procede to find the biggest pot hole and drive over it. Turn off the engine, then restart it and drive looking in your rearview for any fluids. If no fluids, rinse and repeat. If fluids, continue to drive until you can no longer drive it, then call a tow truck.
There is a current thread with someone having their dead engine handled by a warranty. It is still open what the warranty will do, but that is a thread to follow.
There was another recent case of an engine failure where the warranty company did replace the motor. Dig that thread up (I forget which one it was, sorry) and that would be a good place to start.
I used to work in car industry in my past life and this what I used to hear around.
I was mostly referring to those type of additional warranties often pushed by small car dealerships. Never heard anything good about them, but hey, I don't it all, just extrapolating.
This is why I was thinking of some sort of mythical "insurance" company, which would be there to help us out using money out of the pool where we all would participate with our monthly or annual premiums.
I would not mind paying a small monthly sum to have a peace of mind, instead of going all out on PM just to see the new bearing die from collateral damage.
But I will look around to see what is available as "warranty".
Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you - but in my case, my suspicion was supported by the gibberish you wrote.
Feel free to add me to your ignore list.
That makes a lot of sense. Depending on the dealership, you
can
get sold a worthless, crappy warranty...the salesman is generally much more interested in the commission on the warranty and other add-on items than calming your fears of future trouble.
Good luck. Oh, and please don't just toss a flare into the window and walk away as some of the more felony-minded RLers suggest...while repairs are expensive, going to prison for fraud is arguably worse.
My feelings are unhurt. You just told another RL member that as long as he bought a car for an "enthusiastic," worrying about engine failure is stupid. This doesn't affect my feelings, my mood, my blood pressure, or even my feelings of arousal - but it was either tremendously bizarre advice or terribly worded advice.
I would consider you an enthusiast. You know the vehicle well and what specific issues commonly effect the car. You know how to keep the car healthy.
My statement is that anyone looking to buy any car would be better off purchasing a vehicle from someone knowledgeable about the vehicle like yourself. I'm not saying it's a 100% guarantee the vehicle will be problem free, but the new owner can assume the vehicle was cared for to a higher degree than the norm.
I agree... Warranty that you pay for and insurance are one and the same ... its cost is determined by an actuary, and includes company overhead and profit, it's a way of sharing the pain over a large population, statistically the only advantage is buying one when you know something that they don't, which is unusual because they don't stay in business long
From a mechanical point of view - let's be honest to ourselves - besides changing oil frequently, inspecting filter and fixing whatever breaks, how on earth you can keep it healthier than some body else?
I guess, just like the old air cooled 911s, our cars soon or later will enter the same era where engine rebuild is a part of ownership.
I used to rebuilg watercooled VW flat fours back in the days. Nothing scary there. But we're not talking same price range for these flat sixes, at least for now.
PM vs waiting till something breaks would be an example. Would you rather have someone knowledgeable who did the oil changes them self, or someone who just just ran it through jiffylube? What I'm saying is I would rather buy a car form someone who was meticulous and informed. Wouldn't you?
I get there are shaddy people, but I'm making the assumption you know how to spot a bad deal.
Oil change is an oil change (oil quality and grade aside) - it's in the engine, or not
You can't PM everything - every part ages, dries, goes through thousand of temperature cycles, cracks and breaks - that's life. That's why we have health insurance.
You can replace every possible part on your car as PM, but then something else will break - some people buy new cars only for that. Dealing with breaks is not for them. I repair my cars, problem with 996 is that engine is worth more than the car.
I thought the fire needed a bit more fuel, sorry
As sweet said, PM is one method (though too much can be a bad thing too). I think the biggest thing on these cars, however, is to just drive them. It's not a 100% fix, but there are far more reports of major problems on cars that don't get driven much and/or don't get their legs stretched from time to time.
Yes if you drive it more you'll have more things wear out, but they'll mostly be small and incremental rather than one massive painful sum.
At the end of the day, however, no matter what you do and who you buy it from it's always going to be a gamble. It doesn't have to be because they didn't drive it, they are pawning issues off onto a sap, or anything else. Sometimes it's just your time to roll craps.
The only thing I think you can do is enjoy the hell out of it while you have it and do everything you think is reasonable to make that time as long as possible.
For us it was not to worry (too much) about the IMSB or bore scoring until other work had to be done where it made since to do something on the "as long as we are there" principle. Now I won't (overly) worry about them again until the next decade. Maybe it blows up in the meantime or maybe it gets t-boned by a semi, won't know until it happens.
In my opinion, it's not so black and white. For instance, how often was the oil and filter changed? Was the crush washer re-used and was the motor run with low oil?
Was the oil and filter inspected? Was it allowed to drain fully? Was the engine up to temp before the oil was drained? Was the proper amount used (these motors don't like over or under fills)? Was it (god forbid) sucked out from the top as seems to be popular these days or drained from the pan?
Now the difference between a competent DIYer versus a reputable shop I think is minimal, but there are plenty of people that take high value cars to quick change places where god only knows what happens.
You know it's getting close to Springtime when it gets all IMSy around here...
5CHN3LL...I think somewhere in there Sweet Victory was paying you a pretty nice compliment. And, I'm pretty sure Alp and I were being facetious about that whole insurance fraud thing.
Its drinking time...
When my motor blew, I can guarantee that if I had run over a big rock immediately afterwards, it would have been covered by my regular insurance policy (USAA).
I have to disagree with this last part of your statement. The car and the engine are a whole piece. 996s may be at the bottom of the price totem pole, but that isn't the whole criteria of judging the car. Though the engine on my 997 was stronger and more powerful, it wasn't enough to make me stay with the car. I went back to a 996 because I found it more attractive as a whole...so much so that if my engine ever let go, I'd simply replace it, I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
If it cost fifteen grand to get a new motor, in the end I'd still have a hell of a car...only in even better shape than it was before. Oh yes, I do have an after market service contract that will at the very least make me much more comfortable if the worst happens.
USAA is my insurer too and I love them. I hit a curb at about 5mph and they restored my front suspension, front and rear passenger side tire and wheel (with only minor scrape damage to them), factory modified front bumper, and a long list of other things... no questions! They even let me have the tires and wheels for repair to use as spares.
I think any other insurer would have simply totaled out the vehicle as the total repair tab was close to $10K.
USAA ROCKS TOTALLY AS AN INSURER!
Too much suspicion and possibilities leading to forensic evidence, unless you have a 991 gt3.
So the lesson here is to switch to USAA and go with my technique.
If you're going to purchase an aftermarket warranty BE CERTAIN THAT IT IS AN "exclusionary coverage" warranty. Read the contract, and understand the exclusions before you purchase. A contract is either exclusionary or not, there is no in between. They will try to tell you "oh gold or silver coverage" forget about it, they are paid to scam you. Exclusionary or nothing, a stated component policy isn't worth the paper it's printed on, they will always find some loophole to weasel out of.
That sums up my experience with 3rd party warranties and why I won't waste the money on them ever again. Maybe you are right about the type of policy, but I've been burned and won't do it again.
If you have a 2001 high mileage Porsche I seriously doubt you can purchase any kind of insurance or warranty that would be worth anything at all. Either it will cost too much or cover too little. Get great auto insurance and when your engine blows up you WILL be startled by the sound you WILL drop a hot coffee on your lap and you WILL side swipe a concrete barrier and your car WILL be totaled.
FIFY
IIRC, Jake had many experience with quite a few warranty companies and he only had good things to say about one of them. I forgot which one that was off the top of my head. You may wanna contact him or do a search here.
Youri Welcome
For some reason I don't fully understand, people think fraud is just fine when it comes to cars.
Blow up your motor with your aftermarket turbo kit? No problem! Put it back to stock and tow it to the dealership. "*shrug* I don't know why there's a giant hole in the block, Mr. Service Advisor. Must have been a manufacturing defect."
Find a pound of metal shavings in the oil sump? No problem! 9 quarts of oil and a trip to Carmax, and Boom! Problem solved!*
Happy to pay $30K for that private-party used car, but too cheap to pay the legal amount of sales tax...so let's just fill that in for $2,500...
*By solved, of course, I mean "transferred to the next poor sucker down the line."
I have actually been chewed out by forum members before when I expressed my opinion about people dumping failing cars onto the next person/dealership down the line. Especially when it's Carmax or a corporation - for some reason, it's perfectly OK to screw "the man."
I've developed a simple flow chart for whether to commit a felony:
Will I profit sufficient to retire to an island nation?
Yes --> go for it!
No --> maybe find another solution.
I guess I am self-insured for a catastrophic failure, after reading all of this. What I mean is, I've spent 15-20k (and more) restoring my classic muscle cars, what's 15k for a Porsche engine? I love my car, even with 124k well maintained miles. If it pukes, I'll fix it. I mean think about it, if you had an early 911, or even a 993, you wouldn't think twice about a rebuild, or just junk the car if you liked it. I understand that those models are worth considerably more currently, but they were all 'newer' at some point, and probably needed major repairs somewhere down the line. I run my business on spreadsheets, but not my personal garage.
Hmm, it's the price of THE whole car
I think it all boils down to how we look at it. Many of us we lurred into the P-Car land by that same 15k price tag. I believe that once one can settle down with the idea that the
real
price of their 15k P-Car at some point might just double, things take a different perspective.
This is where I came up with the 'insurance' idea. You either pile that extra 15k under your pillow. Or, stretch the cost over a pool of users where everyone piles a small chunk. I haven't looked into extended warranty but as some member pointed, my car is probably too old with too many miles on it anyway (2001 @87K) .
Same as you can buy coverage for track events, I think there is a business opportunity at some point...
Some of us paid significantly more than $15K for the car - and I certainly don't look at my 996 as disposable - but the replacement cost for the motor is a bitter pill I hope to not have to swallow. Rebuilt 5.7 liter motors for my Corvette start at $1,299 - so if one of the cars has to pop, I hope it's the Chebby. The M96 may be more complex than a Chevy small-block, but it's not 15x more complex...
It would be nice if Porsche's "classic" program included new or rebuilt engines at a reasonable cost...
WOW!!!! I am stunned, but after my conversation with my wife this afternoon, I am a bit not surprised. The windshield on her BMW X5 is cracked and today the guy from Safelite arrived to repair it in our driveway with a non-BMW OEM piece of glass. We have the rain sensor OEM glass, and the Safelite guy told us that USAA will not pay for OEM BMW glass.
Needless to say , after my last great experience with USAA and my post here on the list the other day, I WAS PISSED! I gave the Safelite messenger guy a WTF
are you talking about lecture and told him to take that POS glass back, and I am going to get on the horn with USAA!
To be continued...
So USAA says that "WE NEED TO CLOSELY READ OUR POLICY - WHICH THE FINE PRINT SAYS OUR POLICY DOES NOT COVER OEM GLASS...!
Speaking of glass: Where was my magnifying glass when I entered this jacked up agreement?
Totally true to that! 13 thousand by mb motorsports or 22k I was quoted by raby shop for a rebuilt engine on a 20k car is purely insane. If it was 5 grand I would not even hesitate for a minute. But those prices are not normal. I don't care how complex the engine is or how much more panache P car has over corvette or something similar. Nothing can justify it. As someone said it's almost easy to push the car off a cliff when engine fails than to replace the motor.
I just heard of a fellow with the same aftermarket service contract/warranty that I have...this fellow had his ims let go. Warranty is paying for the building of a new engine, less the $250 deductible.
This information relayed to me from the same dealer who sold the man the car and the warranty.
That's awesome news, John. As I mentioned in your track thread, be sure to read the fine print. You don't want to find out the hard way that the "timed event" you were attending when your motor pops is one of the exclusions in your coverage...
I was glad to hear it for the guy who's motor died. I'm sure they would give me grief if I blew it up at the track. I'm guessing Porsche would as well. I'll go with the X51 sump just to add a margine of safety. After that I'm on my own and will just have fun. If I think I'm getting fast enough to be a threat to the motor, I might go for an IMS replacement.
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
