Discussion: Have you tuned your Porsche (Why or Why Not?)

What's the general consensus on this forum and platform when it comes to tuning? Have you tuned your engine and/or transmission? If you did, why did you do it, and if you didn't, what's holding you back? We've been tuning Porsches for over 20 years at APR. You can see a list of Porsche Models we tune here . It's not all of them, but a good chunk of models. The software we have is also on sale until the end of October right now . When it comes to some of the other brands we tune, some of the more high end models, like the Audi RS6 and the Audi RS3 are heavily tuned. On the RS3 front it's hard to find one that isn't tuned. We see the same on some Porsche models, but on others it seems some are hesitant. So, what's your take on tuning?

Can you share some dyno graphs of M96�s you�ve tuned. Supporting mods and before and after graphs would be awesome ! From what I see in the dyno graph thread, doesn�t look like a lot of people see much value in tuning their cars. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...s-allowed.html I�d really like to see more vendor support for ECU tuning but at the moment, it does seem like the market to support is just really small, maybe rightfully so as the cost just doesn�t justify the result ? I don�t know but I applaud you initiating the conversation.

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Don't need a tune on my F6I 3.8 Stage 1 engine. It would be a waste of my money to do so.

I agree with zbomb about the cost. I'm an electrical engineer who has written plenty of code, and the issue for me is that it isn't clear what I am buying. All the tuner vendors make similar claims but never explain how the thing works. For example. I have access to 100+ octane. If you said to me that the black box you are selling me can change the valve and spark timing to get more performance from 100 octane fuel and you can prove it, then I'm interested in learning more. But to sell these as a black box and I have no idea how it works...you can price it at $100 and I still might not buy it. Also, I'm not sure comparing Porsche 996 owners to Audi RS owners is the best way to spur 996 owners to the kind of action you'd like to see.

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The fact that people change the displacement of their engines and don�t get the ECU recalibrated is strange to me and something I have only ever encountered in the 996 world. Everywhere else, it would be a waste to up the displacement without having the ECU calibrated to maximize the potential of the engine. Also interesting, those other scenarios are with engines far less expensive than a rebuilt M96�. One would think dumping all that money on an M96, the relatively small cost to calibrate the ECU would be a no brainer.

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I don't believe I ever said my ECU had or had not been calibrated. I was simply addressing the vendor's question about why I would not consider buying his product. Besides I am not a race car driver and don't need maximum performance from my street vehicle.

I would consider an aftermarket ECU (that was plug and play) for the valet and octane modes alone for the 996 prices you have listed. But for some reason you don't have an ECU for the 996.2!

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Here's what I have for the 996 platform (Graphs within) 3.4L (NA) https://www.goapr.com/products/softw...ts/ECU-34L-996 3.6L (Turbo) https://www.goapr.com/products/softw...ts/ECU-36T-996

Yep. Nothing for the 996.2 3.6NA.

I do wish I had more coverage on the 996. But, that aside, the question still stands. Other than us not having coverage, if you tuned, or didn't, what were your reasoning behind it?

My 2 cents . Tuning on a stock normally aspirated engine will generally speaking have minimal results . But when you start changing displacement , changing cams etc then tuning has merit . Tuning is done to maximize performance AND efficiency . My Boxster S with a 3.6 and my 996 C4 with a 3.8 are both dyno tuned . Yes there were hp and tq gains after tuning . But just as important is excellent AFR from idle to redline . The ECU on its own will " learn " to a degree but can't fine tune itself . I have peace of mind that both of my high performance engines are running at max efficiency .

I've heard good things about tuning the 996.1. Really wakes it up. With that said I haven't done it yet but will. Let me ask my mechanic which tune he uses for his 996.1's.

I don't track my car, daily driver, I keep it perfectly stock, very happy with it. Old saying, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

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Why would tuning your car be a prerequisite or even a thing you would want if you were to take it to a track?

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OK� I was and am easily confused, obviously.

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What�s holding me back? The 3.4 M96 engine in my 1999 996 I�m not sure that I want to add more power to an engine that I�ve spent time and $$$ to hopefully prevent it from self-destructing. On the backroad the stock 3.4 is a pretty good engine for a 2,900 lb car. Almost everything I�ve seen and read has said that there�s very little to be gained from tuning.

I will probably tune my engine at some point after the rebuild. I believe most people don't go that route, is value for money. From what I read on the forums , in order to benefit from a tune, you need to dump some serious money on other upgrades like intake and exhaust systems. and even then you get maybe 10hp extra on the high end of the RPM curve. what results do you see with your tune on a stock engine? Edit: BTW, I'm sure that if a tune by itself that costs $800 will add 40 hp to the engine, you will see a bunch of people doing it, even if they are not racing their cars.

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True...

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Mine is FVD tuned because of a few things.. one went catless, two to squeeze out more HP.. I do believe a custom tune is the best way to go but it's harder to get this done for our cars..

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That crank number doesn't mean anything to me - did you guys run that engine on a stand or in a car. Hard to break through the marketing for something that for the uninitiated is pretty obscure. Maybe in the future you can post some before and afters from a chassis dyno.

As noted in this thread, a good reason would be for trimming fuel and spark for a displacement and intake/outflow changes as a complete package. Not much power to wring out of our high-strung 3.6 straight breathers. But, significant changes to the suck, squish and blow volume do need an updated bang. When zbomb posts the numbers for 3.8s, there’s a pretty big delta with the numbers. A good portion of the potential power curve is left out because the engine ECU just can’t adapt enough for optimums. Hence, the need for a proper tune. If a tuner had some canned tunes for a few different defined volumetric data sets (“x” displacement, “y” throttle body size and intake brand, “z” manifold primary outflow volume) for some popular product lines there might be some value to us. The test control measures for the dyno proof would need to be really tight, or the bs flags will stay unfurled and waving. Way too much snake oil. 90% of everything in the 996 market is tgtbt. Mulder always said the truth is out there. Physics is physics. There are some really fine aftermarket products that, when put together synergistically, kick butt. A smart marketing crew could do the research, hang some of the bestest, smartest combos on a proper test subject in a proper dyno setting and use the runs to put together the best performance options for the 3.4 and 3.6 na with the right bonafides. Then, just sell the shiznit out of the packages. Just sayin’ APR.

The �accepted understanding� of the stock NA Porsche engines is that the factory tune leaves little to nothing on the table. FWIW, My FSI 3.8 stage II . Is indeed �tuned�� In fact, it�s got a handheld module which holds 4 or 5 separate tunes for different types of fuel, driving styles and a valet mode - this is included as part of the build. I can attest that there is a difference between the tunes, though I don�t switch them out with any frequency� I basically use the �aggressive 93 octane� tune at all times.

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Instead of asking the question, you should be answering the question. We are all ears.

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this. I�m all ears. If it actually adds power without serious adverse effects to the longevity of the M96 engine, I would do it�

I have a FSI 3.8 street that I upgraded a couple parts on Mainly Pistons/Rings and a precision balance upgrade, I have Jakes cross over exhaust from LN as well. Sort of a street plus I'm on tune revision #4 since breaking it in. Each tune has made a obvious difference in torque my power bad come on nicely at about 2200 and it doesn't give up before 7000 Before each new tune, the car got a specific set of power runs with the Durametric to log the various engine data points. Tune 1 = stock 3.6 (drove "ok" felt good taking off, most of this was break-in time so no revs above 4K. Tune 2 = specific general changes for the added compression and to start to match my fuel availability (We only get 92 or E-Free 92 in Western Oregon. ) Felt really good. Tune 3 = Tune cleanup and increased idle a bit. (This one was a BIG obvious difference in driving feel. ) Tune 4 = Overall tweaking and cleanup to pull the AFR's tighter. (this one brought the engine in ,, total grin machine. ) I have 1 more log to send in before he sends me the full tune set for the tuner box. He thinks we have it about as good as it will get unless i add more upgrades. Mine is a cab , never seeing the track, its my cross country tour machine and daily driver.. For the record, every thing Jake told me would happen DID.. Only possible change I "could" have gone 4.0 but they were still a kinda newer game and since I was going all street.. I stayed conservative.. So I guess YES I think the tune is worth it,, Note, I'm not pricing or giving specifics don't think tis fair if I were to give away anything I figured out by working with Jake/FSI I got a lot out of this process just learning about the car and talking over the build.

No, any "tune" on a Porsche normally aspirated engine results in negligible power increase and usually comes with some side effect. Turbos are a different story.

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Can you link to the threads, describe your experience or otherwise show examples of how you came to the above conclusions regarding the NA engines. Also, what is your definition of negligible ?

I have a VRTune, with stock intake and aftermarket exhaust. It's all from topgearUK. Headers, 200 cell x-cats, and valved mufflers. I really only got the tune to get rid of the awful factory e-gas lag, so I could double de clutch without waiting for the blip. Stock it was horrible. IS my car any faster, with that 500$ tune, I have no idea. But I do have proper throttle response. recently I moved from NC where I could buy ethanol free 93, to Nova Scotia, where there's no ethanol free option and the fuel is 91 octane. I reached out to Vivid and asked if I needed an update because of the octane change, and they said no. I've never had a dyno tune. But I don't rev my old 100k mile engine over 6000 rpm. I've put my money into UAOS and engine cooling. I need this engine to last me. Getting a FSI might be possible, but I would rather let the next owner buy that, and get another 50-75k miles out of this one. I can use the money for other things. Would I like a 3.6 and dyno? Sure thing. But it ain't free.

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I think there is plenty of evidence of this in the Porsche world. I haven't the time to harvest that data for a solid argument. I apologize for that, but we do know Porsche is no slouch when it comes to engines. They do a good job of getting the most power out of their engines. There is a balance between power, reliability, and economy that needs to be considered. Yes, can remap torque curves to better fit a specific requirement, but you can't expect large power gains from a simple tuning. My guess was that 5% to 10% is about it (APR's graphs demonstrated that lower number) and you probably need to add/change things like exhaust, intake, and cam modifications to hit the higher end of that percentage limit. That's not cheap. Adding another 10 HP is not really significant. That's my definition of negligible. Sure, you might feel a subjective difference in the butt dyno (and after all, you just dumped $450 into getting there, so you will convince yourself that it is meaningful), but it doesn't translate to a large gain. To get to a higher level you are looking at bumping the displacement. For anecdotal evidence of my argument, look at the evolution of the 996 GT3 to 997 GT3 motors. Exhaust, timing, and intake changes resulted in a 30 HP increase, or about 8%. On the track that is useful, but not game changing. To get to the real increases you need to go to 3.8 liters or 4.0 liters and the resulting 100 HP bump is significant. You can't get there with a simple tune. It's not a magic wand. I got that 100 HP boost when I jumped from my 993 to the GT3. The wow factor faded in about a week. 10-15 HP is nothing. Again, this is just my opinion, but it's not a significant difference to interest me and chasing power and torque doesn't make me a better driver. My factory-stock car still exceeds my abilities, so I haven't outgrown it yet. I'm sorry if my opinion on the subject rubs some people the wrong way, but I am not excited about marginal boosts.

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Doesn't rub me the wrong way, I just have not seen the plenty of evidence you speak of. From what I have seen in the dyno thread, it looks like the cars that have been tuned with bolt on's are making within 10WHP of a 3.8. Those combos are a much more efficient way to get to that power level in my opinion. And I like your statement on people convincing themselves the 10WHP they may gain from a tune are significant because they spent the money on it. I agree, I think you see this all the time in the justification of 3.8's or 4.0's.

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So @dporto , was this tune done by FSI themselves, or did they refer you to someone after the build was done. I guess my question is, who did this? I have a 3.8 build with some goodies, and am looking for someone to tune it. -Matt

Fwiw, this thread was a blanket thread that went out to all forums to drive eyeballs to APRs website which is running an Oktoberfest sale on software. Certainly a smart marketing strategy. APR stands for Audi Performance Racing, and they are well known and respected in the Audi turbo world for their software. Key word is TURBO. I have owned 9 Audis since the early 90's and own 3.0 and 2.0 Audi turbos today. I already have a software package on our 2.0 turbo from Stassis engineering which merged with Revo from back in the day which is stated to have improved HP and TQ by 60+ which is common with turbo cars. Never cared enough to spend the money to dyno it to confirm. Buts its certainly more powerful with a much better powerband. I am absolutely considering APR for my 3.0 Q7. But they are turbos. Unfortunately, not much could be done for my NA Audi 4.2 S8 or 4.2 Q7. Every software company will tell you this if you get into a deep enough conversation. However, there are alot of ways to increase power in your m96 engine without boring it out and improving the top end. But the improvements will be limited to most likely between 15-25 HP/TQ if you go full Monty and it will cost you. Nothing wrong with doing it, heck I have done it all except equal length long tube headers. But I will eventually put on a set of FVD M&M headers one of these days. Certainly good software can increase throttle response which is a big complaint for e-throttle 996s. It has for mine. It can also be used to pull various bolt on parts together (IPB plenum, GT3 tb, long tube equal length headers, 200 cell cats) to optimize overall performance. But as I said, it will cost you. IPD & TB. $1200 LTEL Headers $2500 200 Cell Cats $3000 Software. $500-$1500 Labor. $2000 if you can't DIY TOTAL. $7,000 - $10,000 To quantify, many of the Porsche aftermarket providers show dynos with the complete packages showing 20-25 hp gains for between $7-10k. That's $250-400 per hp/tq all in for 20-25 hp/tq. Just like APR has successfully supported the Audi racing community, FVD Brombacher is a great example of a company that has not only raced our 996 engines, but has been "tuning" our cars since their inception. They have a complete software and hardware package that you can review the dynos and the individual parts. Other after market providers do as well. No question, if you want more performance out of your M96, software can help with throttle response and to pull all the parts together. Sure, $1,000 for 5-10 hp/tq at $100-200 per unit is a relatively inexpensive deal. I would do it for the throttle response alone. Imho, its a game changer that many confuse with more horsepower. But it's only a little piece of a more comprehensive package. Rebuilds and swaps are an entirely different conversation for larger power increases.

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The bolt ons are more than a simple tune, but changing things like exhaust, cam timing, and intake can often benefit from a "tune" to get the most out of the changes.

So a tune with +0 HP but improving torque under 4k would still be of value for me at least. Being able to switch between the stock and performance tune on the fly is an interesting feature (plus valet and security lockout), my concern getting a tune would generally be around not really being able to tell if it was worth the money, so being able to a/b test it is nice.

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Check the thread out man, that�s what the user submitted data shows. You can spend FSI money or bolt on + tune money for what you would classify as an insignificant difference in results. And this is why I wonder what the members vocal against the benefits of an engine tune have for reasoning when many of them will then say, a rebuild is a good idea if you�re looking for more power. From a $/HP gain perspective, the rebuild for additional power is a terrible value in comparison.

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Maybe, maybe not. A 996 owner can spend the $10k for the full monty bold on parts and gain 15-25 hp and be happy with it. Another 996 owner wants more so they are willing to pay up for boring it, top of the line internals, and robust head work. Another needs to get a rebuild due to bore scoring, bearings, clinder cracking, etc. Another chooses to swap in a Chevy engine or Honda engine because they dont want to go full monty with the bolt on parts because the want more than 15-25 hp and tq gains. Comes down to what flavor you want. nothing right or wrong, just options. And we have alot of options.

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I said from a $/HP gain perspective , the rebuild for additional power is a terrible value in comparison. I'd be interested in hearing your maybe not argument but try to keep your response confined to what I said. I did not say from an I need to have my engine repaired, I want more power than any M96 can provide or anything else. I said specifically if you are going to go one of 2 ways with the goal of increasing power, the rebuild is a terrible value compared to bolt on's and a tune. This is from the experiences users have had and posted in the dyno thread and the opinion I have formed from them.

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Sweetie pie, it really doesn't matter what you want. Your temper tantrums should be taken to the Chevy forums.

Sweetie pie... uhhh, OK. One of these is an FSI 3.8. One is a bolt on + tune car. From a power output perspective , can anyone describe why they would go the rebuild route as opposed to bolt on's and a tune ? Again, power being the goal.

You are wasting all our time and yours. People have options and they will choose the option they want. You exited the M96 world and went to the Chevy world. Why don't you worry about getting it running and set up so you can drive it. Dont know why you spend too much time worrying about m96 parts and service providers on an engine you no longer have. Seems there may be a bigger issue no?

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What difference does it make to you ? I like technical conversations, my friends run these motors and I like being part of the 996 community, no matter what engine, tune or no tune, suspension, interior, wheels etc they run - doesn't matter to me. Why does it to you ? Oh, cause you're such a mental midget you can't engage in a conversation without throwing out some 5 year old sweetie pie retort. We can't wander out of that little teeny wheelhouse of yours that just regurgitates **** you have read or heard from others cause your actual contribution to anything having to do with the 996 is nothing without the cheerleading. No substance, you ride the coat tails of anyone you can find that says what you want to hear. You can call me whatever you want, you're as insignificant as a single piece of cut grass.

Take a deep breath bud and a nap. Then find a Chevy forum. It will do you good.

Throttle response is something I would be definitely interested in. My car runs great but response feels blunted compared to my old 2.7 with Webers. How much of that can be achieved with a sprint booster type modification? Relatively inexpensive and reversible.

Getting back to the OP's question; I live in California. We must get our cars tested every two years. Tuning can result in a failure. I would not buy a tune or modify the existing program without knowing the car will still pass the test. Are your products approved by CARB? If I install your product, will my car pass the test year after year without any games or BS?

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These tunes were/are all done by FSI and are based on and derived from the original tune contained in/on the ECU in the donor car. They don�t do �stand alone� tunes - only on engines they build� I�m sure there are others that can properly tune your build with its increased displacement. Good luck 👍

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That upper FSI curve is exactly how I would describe the feel after tuning.. it went from hey this is better to ,,, dang this is better!!

For a very small cost, getting a tune is kind of a no-brainer. More so for modern, turbo cars. Some cars are getting 50-100HP for as little as $500. Only concerns for me: 1) Warranty 2) Check engine lights 3) Emissions As long as these are non-issues, a tune would be pretty good value, IMO. For my 23 yr-old 996, I just like to keep it stock.