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YOUR RESEARCHThinking about making the jump to water cooled. Could use some advice.
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Replace when porsche went
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All that changed when Porsche went to the 3.6 (3-chain) engine, which also has 20 more HP and 20ft lbs of torque, and it just feels faster with the torque bump mid 3k RPM.
Thinking about making the jump to water cooled. Could use some advice.
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Check cam timing
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Suggestion
Once that�s out of the way, the early 996s with 5-chain motors might need chain tensioner pad replacements (we check cam timing with a Durametric), and it�s kind of a pain to replace the occasional failed solenoid.
Thinking about making the jump to water cooled. Could use some advice.
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Leading evidence: 'Replace when porsche went' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, The most frequently discussed action is 'Check cam timing' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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This tells you whether the tensioning pads etc need to be replaced which is a fairly big job.
Thinking about making the jump to water cooled. Could use some advice.
Use same parts
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
That and for about they used the same parts for a good 20 years.
Thinking about making the jump to water cooled. Could use some advice.
Check cam timing
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Suggestion
Once that�s out of the way, the early 996s with 5-chain motors might need chain tensioner pad replacements (we check cam timing with a Durametric), and it�s kind of a pain to replace the occasional failed solenoid.
Thinking about making the jump to water cooled. Could use some advice.
Check comments
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Thinking about making the jump to water cooled. Could use some advice.
Frequently discussed actions (10)
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Check cam timing
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Suggestion
Once that�s out of the way, the early 996s with 5-chain motors might need chain tensioner pad replacements (we check cam timing with a Durametric), and it�s kind of a pain to replace the occasional failed solenoid.
Thinking about making the jump to water cooled. Could use some advice.
Replace occasional failed solenoid
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Suggestion
Once that�s out of the way, the early 996s with 5-chain motors might need chain tensioner pad replacements (we check cam timing with a Durametric), and it�s kind of a pain to replace the occasional failed solenoid.
Thinking about making the jump to water cooled. Could use some advice.
Replace when porsche went
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
All that changed when Porsche went to the 3.6 (3-chain) engine, which also has 20 more HP and 20ft lbs of torque, and it just feels faster with the torque bump mid 3k RPM.
Thinking about making the jump to water cooled. Could use some advice.
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32 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
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Good day all. I'm a long time G body 911 owner. I'm thinking of getting a water cooled Porsche. The ones I am looking at are a 987 S or a 996. Downside is I live in an isolated part of the country and won't get to test drive these cars. That being said I bought my 911 sight unseen without ever having driven one so I am not that fearful. This will not be tracked. Just driving around town to work (5km at 40km/hr) or going to the city (350km away, single lane, not that great of a road with animals and rain ruts)
I have found a 996 C4 that seems reasonably priced, taken care, of and not overly far away. IMS is taken care of. Anything else I need to know about car? Thing I like about the 996 is I have a dog that could fit in the back.
I found a few 987 S. Mid engine, fun, cool. Down side, no dog in back. I could probably stretch to a 987.2 and not ever have to work about IMS and bore scoring (right?)
I also found a 2005 911 S that has bore scoring. Not consuming oil but was scoped and is making noise. Reasonably priced for what it is. Thinking I could do most of it DIY but not sure what the costs associated would be to have the blocks resleeved by LN Engineer or whomever. I also know I will be nickled and dimed by 'while you are in there'. Might stretch my budget but would give me something to do this winter. Anyone know the ball park cost for a DIY or can point me to where to look? The thing I like about this option is at least I get the bore scoring rebuild out of the way. It would suck to buy a 996 and then have it happen. Or is the bore scoring thing over-hyped for the 996s?
For reference:
List of vehicles I currently own: 1988 911 Targa, 1967 VW Type 3, 1986 Vanagon Sinka (TDI in it), 2008 Ridgeline, 2012 Toyota Matrix, 2012 Can Am 800, Yamaha: 2007 TW200, 1985 BW200 (very modified) 1988 BW350 (somewhat modified), and 2014 Viper.
List of work I have done on my own: clutch, oil leaks, complete suspension, and while you are in there on the 911, New pistons, cylinder, ton of other stuff on the Type 3 (found abandoned in a barn), rebuilt the transmission twice (forgot the pilot bearing the first time) on the Vanagon. Rebuilt the top ends on all the bikes. I have a shop with a lift.
I'm just looking for thoughts and opinions, that's all.
If your mechanical not many of the 996/987 items are that technical
but a PPI is your best friend and items found are good negotiation tools
I bought my 996 sight unseen most of my needs were service items and for peace of mind
but the car is so enjoyable to drive
good luck on your journey
My air-cooled experience is limited, but the 996 is largely a water-cooled continuation of the 993 and has a familiar feel. I've had a 987.1 Cayman S and currently a 981 Boxster S and an .04 996 coupe. The mid-engine cars are fantastic? My current Boxster is amazing, but is larger than the older models, a great "sports/tourer", fast, precise and comfortable. My 996 is much more raw and frankly a bit more fun to drive. It works nicely for short local errands, group rides, etc. provided you always warm it up properly. One advantage of the 996 and 986/987 is their relative simplicity. Most routine maintenance is easy DIY stuff, and major services are also very doable with patience. My 996 has 70,000 miles on it with a good maintenance history and I'm counting on many years of future enjoyment.
In the past I have owned a 74 911S , a 83 911 SC and a 75 914 converted to a GT . So some history . I currently own a 02 986S and a 99 996 C4 . The difference is night and day . The older machines are simpler/lighter/raw .
Newer models like I have are more comfortable , superior safety and perform VERY well . They both still have that " bank vault " door closure sound . And while modern they still have a raw driving feel . And when it's 95 degrees out with 75% humidity it is a joy to rip through the mountains with the AC keeping you cool .
Like all Porsche's buy the newest you want or can afford . Get a PPI . Set aside 5-7k fun $$$ for any maintenance needed . Drive it like you stole it after the engine is warmed up . Have fun .
That's good to know. Does they need a lot of one of a kind, specialized, expensive tools or just common mechanic's tools? Is the 997 where things get complicated and not DIY?
What made you give up the Cayman S for a 996?
One of the reasons for this is to have a car that has a nice HVAC to be able to defog the windscreen if it's raining or what not out. Currently the VW and 911 aren't very good at that. Do you like the C4 over a C2? Weather is usually terrible here so the idea of 4 wheels to keep me extra safe did cross my mind.
I am in Georgia so really don't need AWD but it really pulls well on mountain roads . Just a little better balanced but with a slight weight penalty . I like the physical size of the 986/996 chassis . Still small by today's standards .
"What made you give up the Cayman S for a 996?"
Bought the Cayman as my first Porsche at age 70. Loved the body style and loved the car.
Many of our friends here in western NC had Boxsters, and we've usually had a roadster of some kind. So I sold the Cayman and found the 981 Boxster S. I like it a lot; my wife loves it! But I do generally like smaller footprint cars.
Bought a 944 for something older. After a lot of work, I had a clutch line rupture and set fire to the engine. Totalled.
Decided (1) no more 944's for a while and (2) never had a 911 so opted for a 996 for it's relative simplicity, compactness, and sort of retro vibe. Albeit a "blue Chevrolet" of 911's (silver with black), I get a lot of compliments on it's condition, so I think it's a keeper.
Nice story. I like simple. My manually injected TDI truck requires no electricty to work and my Type 3's wiring diagram fits entirely on one page. Also takes me 35 min to get the engine out. Thoughts on C2 vs C4?
Thanks for the luck. Is the 996 that much easier to work on than the 987 or 997? What the parts like? Good after market support or am I paying a hefty P-tax. Thing I like about my aircooled is there are still lots of parts available from either OEM or after market. That and for about they used the same parts for a good 20 years.
For 90% of the parts you don't have to pay the Porsche Tax, they are available from the OEM suppliers to Porsche or even from Audi/VW for much less cost. And then there are even less costly alternatives..
For the other 10% that you will have to pay the Porsche Tax include some that the alternatives are such poor quality they are not recommended ( do your research) or are parts specifically made for 996 in low quantity that are only available through Porsche channels..( again research before paying the Porsche Tax or ask questions)..
The difficulty in working on 987 997 vs 996 is the same, engineering team is the same but certain jobs can be easier or more difficult..
What's the level of electrical/sensor/wiring faults you get once you move into cars that have PASM, PTV, or anther expensive acronyms?
To update anyone who is interested. I have found a pair of 996 C4. (125mi, IMS 'done', 22K usd). Both seem decent, look pretty, and the owner seems to know what they are talking about. I also found a 2010 Cayman S which is also interesting. 130mi and 25k usd. I think if I wasn't worried about carrying a dog and wife I would probably go for the Cayman. Although the thought of 4WD intrigues me, should I feel guilty about driving the 996 in snow/slight salt? I drove my aircooled in the snow/salt a bit thinking if it ever rusts out in a few years I can just go out and buy another 20K aircooled. I was wrong....
The Porsch eC4 is not much of a snow car, the frontend doesn't get power really unless the rear is spinning, the haldex viscous coupler is friction activated in the 996.
I'm going to full cold weather ice tires on 17" rims for winter X-ice or DWS02+. (This is for fitment, there is not much in the way of options for a c4 on 18" rims for cold weather. )
Engine Fail Recovery:
Just for light discussion,,
In suprer rough numbers: < NOTE: SUPER rough..
DIY rebuild but done with really top shelf parts roughly 15K (It varies a lot!! )
LN engineering 3.6 25K ready to run.
I believe Hartech is similar.
Indy with the skills to really do it right about 20K. (+/- 3000)
None of these include r&r of the motor. (About 2K at a Indy)
The Porsche is no worse or better about salt, if your going to drive it at all on salted roads I'd invest in some quick jacks and a pressure washer and some wash to get the salt off.
If you look at the bottom of the car, getting it clean of salt will mean removing the entire under tray regularly to clean. A job thats way easier on a 2 post lift.
There are a few spots like inside the wheel wells where it has places that collect grunge so a regular garden hose shot walking around the car is time well spent.
Speaking of lifts, the 996 most maintenance work is under the car, almost any very big job a lift is your friend.
Get the book for the 996 "100 projects" its a good taste test to 996 maintenance requirements for tools and access. Its not a manual more of a tip guide.
Thanks for all this. It helps. I think I might go with a C4 regardless...just cause. From reading just about every thread on the C4 vs C2 comparisons I have come to the conclusion 1) Get the best condition car, and 2) It really doesn't matter all that much.
Worry not, I have a 2 post lift in a heated garage. I don't imagine the 996 is all that ergonomically different than working on an earlier 911?
Been there, done that. Nice thing thing when all said and done is that you get a car that should not need anything for quite a while......or so I keep telling myself.
I see you're coming from '80s air cooled vs my coming from '70s air cooled but I think there are still some similarities.
This was my post 'one year in' from my switch from air to water. YMMV
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...onth-long.html
Oh absolutely, hard parts are through the roof on these engines.. I was just giving the current print numbers as a comparison for shopping..
A 3.6, rebuilt as a 400HP + 4.0 is well north of 45K THe couple guys that can reliably build them tell you the price will change over time and they cant guarantee the final number at that power level.
You sure are! After I sold that 88 Targa to you what, like 17 years ago, I went to a 2000 986S and then to a 1999 996, which I�ve had now for 7 years. The only reason I chose the 911 over the Boxster S was the rear seat. I have kids now, and I love the ability to have my favorite people with me, as we can all go somewhere as a family. You have 10 vehicles, and I have 2, so you might have more flexibility.
The 996 is a repeat of the 88 in many ways. It�s still cheap, it feels old school, it�s engaging, it handles amazing, it�s simple, it�s easy to work on. It�s a joy to work on actually. The wiring and electrical on the 996s are bullet-proof (unless a rodent goes to town), and generally, everything just works.
The big gotcha on the 996 is bore scoring. Once that�s out of the way, the early 996s with 5-chain motors might need chain tensioner pad replacements (we check cam timing with a Durametric), and it�s kind of a pain to replace the occasional failed solenoid. All that changed when Porsche went to the 3.6 (3-chain) engine, which also has 20 more HP and 20ft lbs of torque, and it just feels faster with the torque bump mid 3k RPM.
You are correct, any 996 no matter the year of number of wheels driven is going to work great.
Regarding the 997, I�d say those cars are still simple enough and work just as well. The 996 still holds claim to the lightest 911 from the 993-through-today.
I do miss the old 3.2 Carrera, but the 996 is a perfect replacement.
Circa 2007, Chicago south loop railyard
Circa 2017
The reason why the numbers are never quoted is because they're embarrassingly low. All you have to do is look at the dyno sheets. Imagine paying $40k for a FSI 4.0 and not even being able to crack 300whp.
Former owner of many air cooled and frankly I'll never go back. My most recent air cooled car was a 1990 33k mile one owner 964 C4. I traded it in for a GT4 RS a few weeks ago and it's currently for sale at $165,000 at McLaren Philadelphia
The 996 Chassis is BRILLIANT! I prefer the throttle cable 99's but all of them are good. Just make sure you get one with an interior that doesn't feel cheap. My 2002 996.2 suffers from this problem. My 996.1's don't.
May I recommend a Targa 996?. They are rare and cool and I bet dogs love them. Throw in a Modern Porsche radio and life is good.
My 3/98 C2 weighs about the same as the 1983 SC. And it's raw with the throttle cable and feel. I also have a 2001 C4 and it does feel heavier, more a touring car. So it all depends on which 996 you get.
While I have other great 996's, my vote is for throttle cable and the early build variety.
A hefty "hear, hear!" from this 996 targa owner. The 996/997 targa is the most practical 911 ever made, period. Get the 996 for 2wd and lighter weight, or the 997 for AWD and a better interior.
Thanks for the advice. I appreciate it. I check your comments on the bore scoring. The car will definitely get scoped before I purchase. BTW, that old 3.2 is just shy of 200K mi. And to be fair, about half my vehicles are 'off road only'. Aka, sled, quad, motorcycles. I can still take them to work and maybe the grocery store but not much else.
I don't think I will ever get rid of my air cooled. As I get older I have just come to desire comfort a little more. Driving it through the rain or at night with its questionable HVAC makes me yearn for something a little more modern. The long drives on single lane highway in a part of the world with not great weather also has me looking at the C4 vice the C2. My understanding is all C4 are drive by wire?
I think 997 is out of the picture now. I did see a 987.2 S for almost the same as a 996.1 C4 but I'm not sure that's the car for me.
Interesting thoughts on getting another Targa, currently 2 for sale in the country as far as I can see. 1 is tip and the other one is very over priced. Not sure I also want to go to the US and get another one, prices aren't as competitive anymore.
Current car I am looking at is
IMS is the ceramic one, bore scoped in 2018, I don't have much more info. I guess for a PPI the big things are bore scoping and cam variation? Gut feeling as this car was cared for.
Besides scoping, you also want to look at the cam deviation readings with Durametric or a similar tool. This tells you whether the tensioning pads etc need to be replaced which is a fairly big job. Good luck with your purchase! I'm sure you'll love your 996.
One thing though (but that also applies to your '88): a 5 km commute is not enough to warm up the engine, so you really want to do longer runs regularly to properly heat up the oil and burn gas residue.
