Going against the grain

I�m doing a track event at Blackhawk Farms tomorrow. The last time I did one, in 2005, the clutch on my 88 Carrera came apart on the last session of the day, last lap, and final turn. It was partially my fault, as I pre-shifted from 4th to 2nd and spun the clutch (not the engine) to high heaven. We often hear how old rubber can crack and get brittle, and they did use rubber on that clutch disc� Tomorrow, I am signed up for an HPDE at Blackhawk Farms. Here�s where I�m going against the grain: my car has a stock IMSB, stock clutch, no 3rd radiator, no deep sump or any other oil or cooling mods, all season tires, stock brake pads and rotors. Anyone else would be proactively replacing many of these items� Instead, I�m going to pray to the Porsche gods. I�ll trust that for the most part, tracking a 22.7 yr-old car is not a good idea, but that the Porsche gods have designed this car well, and it just might hold up fine on the track. In all fairness, I hope to run 6/10th or 7/10th, a spirited fun pace, focused on proper track width and hitting apexes, maybe even a little trail-braking, and avoid smashing the brake and throttle every chance I get. For sure, the brakes will fade if I do that. Please pray for me - I mean pray with me by singing the songs the Porsche gods love to hear: how these cars can attend a DE in plain-jane 1990�s clothes and somehow (miraculously) survive!

Looks very tidy, top looks great - like brand new great. I would like to see it with a lot more low, but I say that for every stock ride height car. Looks great.

Whoops, all my previous text disappeared. I edited it� But, I agree, I�d love to drop it and swap out the wheels/tires now that I�m no longer driving it year round, even in the salty snow-covered streets.

Oil level?? AOS ?? Brand/weight of oil ??? I'll say a prayer for you also to the Porsche Gods.. Good Luck !!

Enjoy!

I did some damage to my stock (except for IMSB) engine doing 3 HPDE track events earlier in the year. My indy thinks it's most likely bearing damage due to temporary oil starvation. Talk to the people at the track that run M96 and ask which turns can be brutal on the engines. Take it easier around those turns. If I had to do it over again, I'd keep the revs lower & focus on "slower & smoother". I'd also do more of a cool down run. JR says the most important thing is to keep the oil cool. Until Porschetech perfects his sump, that will be the key. Personally, I still want to do a few track events a year. I'll most likely install a deep sump before I do it again & I'm also considering a third radiator. The '99s seem to run a little hotter anyway. Good luck & have fun!

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I�m 1 little bar from the top, Motul 8100 X-chess 5w40. As far as I know, stock AOS. I�ve been at Autobahn and Road America with this car before, and never had any issues aside from oil pressure drops in the long sweeping right-handed turns, so I�ll be paying attention to that tomorrow.

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Yep, that�s exactly what I plan to do. I will be taking it easy for sure. I�ll do 1-2 cool down laps as well. And probably not run every session. Maybe I�ll start at the very back of the line too.

Just have fun man… be in tune with what the car feels and sounds like. If I were you, here’s what I would be checking with what I know now. Make sure brake fluid is fresh, power steering fluid in good shape, serp belt, rubber coolant hoses. Shifter cables ruin a fair amount of track days, may want to get some zip ties on them now or be prepared if one pops out at the track. Other than that, the car should be a hoot in stock form and all seasons should allow a high level of limited grip playfulness.

I do have all new brakes and fluid, so that�s good. I went with Akebono pads and Zimmerman rotors, Motul RBF 600.

I applaud you getting the thing on track and having the mindset you do man. I wish more people were like you. I hope you have a great day, I think every day I have on track I improve as a driver - on track AND off. Getting that first track day behind you can really give you a confidence bump in the capability of the car - "Hey ! I spent XXX amount of time at WOT and IT'S STILL RUNNING !!!". It's not completely made of glass ***ETA - Just sas you've been on track with the car before, so the above does not apply to you - but I'll leave it as I do think it may be applicable to others if OK with you*** Can you hurt the car - of course, but my opinion is if there is a mechanical issue that materializes with the motor or gearbox on the car at the track, likely, it would have happened on the street eventually anyway - so get those track miles in and have fun, it has not been my experience that you can't replicate the car fun you can have on track at any other place. With your attitude, you're in a good place to not hurt the car otherwise (driver induced) - you mentioned you have track experience and I would be willing to bet as you get a couple laps under your belt, the really important parts of driving on track - situational awareness, etiquette, HAVING FUN will all come back to you soon. Keep on the right side of the blend line, be clear on your point by's and decisive and deliberate on your overtake's and have fun.

Not doing the mechanical stuff does not concern me as much tracking a convertible. Be careful. Our PCA region actually does not allow convertibles without a rollbar (other than the very first event). I know they have pop-ups, but I would not want to see how those pop-ups would handlle flipping onto a gravel or sand run-off area. Again, enjoy it, just be careful, and if you plan on doing it a lot, invest in a roll bar.

My 2 cents was to say to at least change and bleed the brake fluid. It looks like you already covered that. I assume you will be in a beginner or next to beginner run group where a roll-over, while not impossible, is improbable. Drive the car smartly and have fun! Your 88 clutch story reminded me of the time I had a total brain fart at a DE. I was running my 83 944 at Mt Tremblant many (many) years ago. I came on to the main straight, which is anything but straight, as it rolls uphill and curves. Flat out in 4th gear after going over the hill I downshifted and went from 4th to 2nd. As I released the clutch I heard the engine rev way up and saw the tach jump up. I immediately pushed in the clutch and shifted to 3rd. Fearing the worst I let out the clutch expecting mayhem. Nope, the car, engine, and tranny all survived!

And how did it go? My guess is you're going again soon...

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Went well! Expectations are a funny thing. Remember, I was running in a Cab, all season tires 😳, stock brakes, original suspension, etc. Not to mention my alignment settings are super conservative for maximum tire life at the expense of handling and cornering. So I expected to be quite slow at 6/10th, but I ended up pushing the car and myself well harder than that. I was averaging 1:33 lap times, fairly consistently, but had some traffic or mistakes or cool off laps here and there. My best time was 1:30.80. I had to bleed 4-7psi after each session just to keep tire pressures in check. Goes to show how damn hot tires get when they are squealing every 5 seconds. I�ll post some pics and videos once I edit them� The long and short of it is, the car never missed a beat*. Coolant temps never got above 215F. I figure oil never got above 235F, because my idle oil pressure hot off the track was still 1.25bar (pretty much what I get on the street on a really hot day). And I haven�t cleaned the front rads in 3 years**. Look, I�m not saying it�s not smart to not prep the car. The car had a full tech inspection, relatively clean oil, relatively fresh brake fluid flush. They even made me check every lug with their wrench already set to 96 ft lbs. All I�m saying is that a stock 911 can go on the track and owners don�t have to freak out and spend thousands of dollars to �preempt� a failure***. I was talking to a guy at the track that went through at least 2 GT3 engines due to failure. Stuff breaks, all the time. Sometimes right in your garage just sitting there. Other times, pushing on the track at 7,100RPM. But I don�t believe we can always predict what will fail, and I keep reading horror stories of folks fixing things on their car that aren�t broken. There�s a fine line between �ain�t broke, don�t fix it,� and �better address the weak area to prevent a failure.� * I did have some brake fade after the sessions. This track and and stock airflow setup just doesn�t cool brakes all that well going into the paddock at 15mph. Stock 911 brakes are great, but they can and will fade over time. **I pulled that front bumper off 3 years ago and thoroughly cleaned everything, but haven�t done it since. While it appears to be true that temps can be lower if you regularly clean these, I don�t believe in that! Well, I think 1-2% is possible, but I don�t believe we should have to take the damn bumpers off our cars every 6 months to clean them. You are going to get way more than 1-2% cooling just by driving faster, or changing the airflow in this area, than cleaning. Don�t get me wrong, I do make sure there is no debris in the intake, and I do spray the water hose in there when I�m washing my car, but that�s it. ***I did have oil pressure drops in the track. Probably, certainly, there is wear and if unaddressed, the engine bearing will fail and the engine will need to be rebuilt. I�m looking forward to the UDIS to some this issue. All in all, anyone looking to drive your 911 fast can take her in stock form on the track and just take it easy and odds are, it won�t break. Sure, I still got the insurance (Lockton), and it�s still risky going out there, but you don�t need a race car to drive fast****. ****fast being a relative term, lol 😊

Nice Mike, make sure you post the pics and vid in the track pics thread too. Glad to hear the day went well

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What tracks did you go to? Your driving pulled enough Gs in right handers on street tires to cause oil starvation? Your indy thinks it bearing damage and was oil starvation from your 3 HPDEs, how could the indy determine that? Were all of your UOA good until your HPDEs?

The track was Blackhawk Farms Raceway, in South Beloit, IL. The event was a Porsche PCA track day, HPDE. Yes, I can get oil starvation even on the street. My Indy doesn�t think anything about bearing damage; it�s something I think. I haven�t done any UOA on this car.

Here�s a 5 min video with pics and video footage of the track day. Shout out to Glenn C, GC996, who rode shotgun as instructor and helped me find the right racing lines on this track. You Tube

I heard that once your 3.4L engine revs over 4000 rpm, your IMS fails, you lose oil pressure, there's metal in your filter, you lose half your coolant, your engine rattles, you need to boroscope and you have to get your engine rebuilt with a lead time of completion around 2035. Just to be safe, I don't drive mine.

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What a great day at the track. Mike and I met in person a few months ago thru the RL blogs and talked about going to Blackhawk and having some fun. My goal was to see what the guys were running for times and on their cars to prep my car for next season. Mike wanted to take his car out and have some fun. Mike is not only a smart guy who can drive, but he has the ability to balance his car with very smooth inputs, which allowed him to pass late model Caymans and 911s on the track, wearing only all season tires, OEM suspension and with 100 HP less. If Mike was wearing a good set of summer tires or even 200 tires, he would have shed and additional 2-3 seconds a lap. Tires are everything. As you can see from Mike's video, there is some pretty impressive hardware in the PCA Chicago region. Great day!

Thanks for the kind words, Glenn! Yeah, tires are important. Now that I have the space and don�t plan to keep driving my car in 6� of snow, I may switch to max perf summers and track pads next time. Gotta get the lap times into the 1:20�s! I also made, probably 6-10 mistakes per lap, so if I can find Blackhawk on Grand Turismo Sport or iRacing, I will practice by putting in a few hundred laps, lol. I bet I can find 2-3 seconds by adjusting the nut behind the wheel as well.

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That is a nice looking track. Are you in Black/Red run group? I saw in video a pass in a corner? Is that open passing? Some pretty nice video. Thanks for sharing.

No, I was going to go in Yellow, but decided I should do Green, mainly because most of the cars there were newer and faster, on real tires, and I was at this track 15 years ago. That, and Green had less cars. Yeah, I saw that pass in the corner. That might have been turn 3b to turn 4, which the Black or White group might have been allowed to pass there. Green and Yellow were only allowed to pass 5-6, 6-7, and 7-1. Blackhawk Farms Raceway, South Beloit, IL

Sunny days at the track are the best !

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That was a pass in the black run group which is made up of club racers and heavy DE guys. From time to time there are courtesy passes in tight areas. That area is the slowest and tightest section of the track. No one wants to damage their car so there is always a courtesy point and everyone moves as fast as they can to pass and get out of the way.

Now that I think about it, this was the first track event where someone didn�t crash or blow an engine. My other track events were mostly with LAPS and have lots of other car makes and models.

Pretty smooth day. Neil had engine problems in his 996 GT3 the day before. But no oil leaks, no coolant leaks and no accidents. Doesn't happen very often.

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The Porsche gods were pleased that day

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I went to Chuckwalla (CCW), Streets of Willow and Chuckwalla (CW) The Indy shop also has several cars they race and customer cars they care for at these tracks. He's familiar with the specific corners at Chuckwalla especially where the M96 can have issues. I had done 3 oil changes on the car and no metal in the filter on the first two. On the third change (after the three events) I found some ferrous metal fragments in the filter. That together with my pictures of the filter and the plastic bag of debris I collected is how he made his determination. Mind you, nothing is 100% but that's what he *thinks*. I've only had the car a little over a year and there was only one UOA done before the HPDEs. That UOA had 20% less metal in it than the ones after the HPDE events. It's possible the first UOA is the anomaly but probably not.

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Well that then sounds probable then. Did you install any type of X51 baffle to help reduce oil starvation? Tarret offers one for the stock sump. I should have asked that question first. I installed the baffle before any of HPDEs I did. In the carousel at WGI and the banked turn 9 at NJMP lightning, I could just see the gauge drop a bar maybe a hair more. But nothing worst than that. Street tires in yellow group. Indeed I am not getting anywhere near the g forces an experienced driver would generate. PB at WGI is 2:30 🙄. The car can sure get around a lot quicker, one of my instructors took me out in my car for a few (semi)hot laps at WGI😳. There is a more than a little difference in a 2:30 vs a 2:14 lap. I wanted to look at the oil pressure gauge when he was driving, by couldn't, my eye ***** were rolling around too much.

Sadly, I thought oil starvation issues were only for those who actually knew how to drive fast on the track. Since I was HPDE in the green group I wasn't worried about it. The baffle is an interesting idea. I hadn't heard about that. I'm probably going to install a deep sump kit. The mechanic says they put deep sumps on all the M96 cars they put on the track. I'm even kicking around the idea of a center radiator. The combination of turns and the temperature can also contribute. I heard that a left turn followed by a right is what really does it (don't quote me on the exact combo). JR says keeping the oil cool is key as well. Since most of our tracks out here are in the desert it can easily get into the 90 - 100 degree range in early spring. It was in the mid 90s at my last event and it was only March. I kept wanting to look at my oil pressure gauge too but never thought about it at the right times. It's not easy when you're concentrating on the line.

@ssherman68 Check my vids man... deep sump, at least the LN one is not the answer to oil starvation - at least in my case. With the data overlay on the video, it really gives an easy way to digest what's happening.

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Don't worry. I've kept tabs on the thread, read most of it many weeks back & like what you're doing. You're right. It does not completely solve the oil pressure drops. However, they do seem to mitigate it enough by providing more oil and keeping it a little cooler to where issues like mine don't seem to happen. What would be good to see is a before/after comparison of how bad the drops are before a deep sump is installed vs. after. I'm very interested in Porschetech3's UIDS. But until that comes to market, a deep sump is probably still the best bet.

If you were running your oil level at anything under full capacity while on track, I would prioritize UAOS with the drainback first - run full, or a little over fill.

Absolutely. Probably the biggest break through on Jason's Oil Pressure Stability thread that can immediately be implemented to help mitigate oil pressure stability and starvation is the UAOS with drain back. This allows you to run the oil full, possibly over-full. Tied in breakthroughs will be the UIDS when it's ready for sale. When a more powerful oil cooler is ready from LN, the three most needed solutions that we have waited for 20+ years will be a must to help prevent failures and prolong engine life. The 996 Renaissance is alive and well.

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Can you explain what the thinking is here? I know the AOS can have problems on the track but that's about all I know. With a 2 qt deep sump, that would give you 2 quarts more in the sump. A UAOS is more difficult to install and would only give you maybe half a quart more? I don't understand what the benefit is here aside from the AOS being more reliable. Track events are approaching fast and I need to figure out what I should do to make sure I don't find any more surprises in my oil filter...

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Sure The deep sump does nothing to allow the oil level to be run at the factory level (point on the dip stick) without the very real likelihood of overwhelming the AOS. If you are running your level at capacity, it is highly likely you will have oil getting sucked up into your intake doing a minimum of 2 things regardless of the sump, stock, 1/2 QT, 2QT...whatever: 1. Burning, bad for plugs, AFR, cats etc... 2. Decreasing your oil level 3. (Potentially) causing immediate catastrophic engine damage through hydrolock. The UAOS with drainback prevents these from occurring at full level (and even slightly above for me) by allowing the oil that would otherwise end up in the intake to be re-routed back into the sump via the oil fill tube. This keeps the oil out of the intake AND keeps your level from dropping. The LN deep sump I have did not do a good job of keeping pressures manageable UNTIL I added the drainback and was able to run the oil at the full level. I attribute the improvement not to the deep sump - it stayed the same, but to the ability to run the oil at the very top of the dip stick. I hear you on install and no argument there. BUT The deep sump is $900 that will hopefully soon be obsoleted by the UIDS. So. If you are running your oil at the track at anything under full capacity, fix that first with the UAOS with drainback, if it does not get you where you want, then try the deep sump or hopefully, buy the UIDS and be set.

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OK. Thanks for explaining that. I did fill out the interest form on the UIDS already. As someone who's spent a lot of his life driving higher clearance vehicles, I do worry about the ground clearance of the deep sump.

Couple of ways I have been thinking about this depending on when the UIDS and LN oil cooler will be ready for sale. The objective here is to address oil starvation, oil pressure instability and provide more oil cooling as best I can with what is available, ultimately getting my car to the Advanced #3 scenario below. Here is a BASIC no brainer set-up with what's available for sale right NOW, with an eye on adding the UIDS and LN Oil cooler in the future when available. 1. UAOS with drainback - allows you to run your oil full or even slightly over-full which helps to incrementally address oil starvation and oil pressure instability. 2. 2Qt deep sump - allows you to run 2 extra quarts of oil which provides oil cooling advantages within a 25-30 min DE window. After 30 minutes your oil temps will escalate facilitating the need for more oil cooling which isn't yet available. If you don't run 2Qts of extra oil, your smaller quantity of oil will heat up faster, which is not good. Here is an ADVANCED #1 no brainer set-up for what is available today. 1. Same as above 2. Same as above 3. Add 2 CSF radiators for more water cooling. Hold off on 3rd radiator depending on what LN develops for oil cooling due to the possible need to use the 3rd radiator space for an additional oil cooler. This will save you $1k. For those of you that want to spend the money on the 3rd radiator, go for it. It will certainly help with cooling. ADVANCED #2 assuming UIDS is ready for sale and LN Oil cooler is not yet ready. The UIDS coupled with the UAOS with drainback will directly help to address oil starvation and oil pressure instability. However, they will not address oil cooling. If an LN oil cooler isn't available just yet, then the only way to aid in oil cooling besides better radiator cooling is to keep the extra 2Qts of oil with a deep sump extension attached to the UIDS. 1. UAOS with drainback. 2. UIDS with 2Qt extension 3. 2 CSF Radiators and/or center radiator. ADVANCED #3 assumes both UIDS and LN Oil cooler are ready. In this case, we now have an oil cooler which means we do not have to run a 2Qt extension for more oil and therefore cooling. 1. UAOS with drainback. 2. UIDS without 2Qt extension unless tests show the extra oil helps to further reduce drops in oil pressure. We won't know this until testing. 3. 2 CSF radiators and/or a 3rd depending on if the oil cooler needs the 3rd radiator spot. 4. LN Oil Cooling system. ​​​ This is the sequence I am using in prep for DE next year. Trying to make it as logical as possible. Obviously the key to the decisions hinges on when the UIDS and LN Oil Cooler will be available. While I would love both products to be available as of yesterday, I would prefer that Skip & George, as well as Charles take their time to do it right. We have waited 20 years for these breakthroughs. Another 6 months won't kill any of us. In the meantime, I will refine my decision sequence as needed.

There is one other thing we haven�t thought of. For less modified cars, what about a micro switch that allows full speed fan operation on the front rads. Here�s why: many tracks have average speeds in many corners where airflow is not really very effective. Having the fans on full speed should greatly improve that. Now some of you might mention cup cars not even having fans, but I think that�s because fans restrict airflow, and cup cars are generally fast enough this is not the biggest issue. Then again, cup cars are seeing super high temps on occasion too�

Mike, I like where you are going with this. You bring up a good point to varying degrees of solutions. What your suggesting may be a good solution for the guys that aren't track junkies but are looking at ways to provide a little more cooling without going hog-wild with bolt-ons. Yeah, my solution sequence was from the standpoint of getting my car back out on the track to run in the fastest group again without fear of blowing the engine due to starvation, stability and cooling. Oil starvation/stability and cooling are two separate issues that are joined at the hip. But both issues escalate with the harder you drive your car and the faster you become. Good conversation.

Mike, you got me thinking. Any idea when the radiator fans actually turn on? What's it triggered by? If you have a low temp thermostat, would the fans come on sooner?

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Electric fans There are two radiator modules installed in the front of the vehicle (on the jleft- and right-hand side). These radiators are each fitted with an electric fan. They can be operated at two speeds and are activated by the DME control unit whenever the following conditions apply: Electric fan, speed 1 (Ground to DME control unit, terminal 35) Coolant temperature higher than 96.75�C or air conditioning switched on. Electric fan, speed 2 (Ground to DME control unit, terminal 36) Coolant temperature > 102�C or air-conditioning fluid pressure switch closed (coolant pressure > 16 bar). Note: The electric fans for the radiators are only triggered when the engine is running!

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The logic on being able to turn the fans on high during tracking is similar to the idea of running more oil: it takes longer to heat up a larger pool of liquid than a smaller one, but with the fans, we�d get airflow all the time on the track, not just at higher speed� And actually, the airflow at all speeds should be greater - higher CFM overall - due to less back pressure. The only other way to reduce back pressure would be to remove the fans altogether like cup cars.

Looks like there are many ways to skin a cat.

I was just thinking about the explanation on running the oil level higher with the UAOS compared with running a deeper oil pan. The dipstick measures the oil level in the block in relation to the top of the block. So what is the difference if I lower the pan by 2 inches or fill the oil up 2 inches higher on the dipstick with the stock pan. That should be the same amount of oil. Obviously, you don't fill the oil up an additional 2 inches on the dipstick when overfilling with the UAOS. So the extended pan should have more oil in it and with the extender on the pickup, the pickup is submerged in the same amount of oil. The only variable here is how much the swirl pots or returns are submerged in oil since they don't get extenders when you install a deep pan. Is it possible that the swirl pots not being submerged in enough oil is contributing to the instability issues?

At this stage, you can't run an extra 2Qts of oil without a deep pan. Porschetech3 could give you an engineering explanation as to why. Zbomb can give you his practical experience with it. They were able to run a 2qt Deep sump with a 996.1 oil stick at full and I believe slightly over full for approx 12.5 quarts and the UAOS with drainback could handle it just fine. If you eliminate the deep sump, you are now down to 10.5 quarts. I know a lot of the guys don't like the deep sump. I've had mine for 14 years and I kinda like the jewelry hanging out the back. Plus I like the 2 extra quarts of oil and the cooling advantages it brings until we get a more powerful oil cooler on the market.

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I say no, it doesn't. The static level in the swirl pots is the same as the level in the sump (communicating vessels principle). Dynamic level could be higher in the pots when they can't dump the oil out the bottom as quickly as it is coming in at the top but even then it doesn't matter how deep below the surface the bottom opening actually sits as the swirl pots will each remain a vessel communicating with the vessel that is the sump they sit in.

Amargari, Take a look at Jason's (Zbomb) post on oil pressure instability. There is a good discussion on the topic from the engineers that would compliment hardtailers comments. Hope that helps.

Mike, the only track event I brought my 99 to was Blackhawk. After about 3 or 4 laps, the oil would heat up and I would loose oil pressure between turns 4 and 5, but gosh darn isn't it hard to look at the gauge when going around that corner? I would then track out. So I got about 20 laps in for a day. I just won't take the chance of blowing the engine on low oil pressure on a track day. The car is too fun to drive on the street. Glad you had a good time!

If you want to grasp what the UAOS with drain back does to help control oil and inadvertently pressure stability, stop looking at what going on in the bottom of the sump for a bit, and look at what goes on in the "loft" area, (the area above the sump,ie heads and ims valley). The Porsche Factory lowered the oil level (via dipstick changes ect) due to large volumes of oil sloshing in the heads on hard turns and the oil was being slung off the timing chains up into the AOS and eventually overwhelming it to the point the oil was getting sucked into the intake. The more oil in the heads means more oil available for the scavenge pumps to pump it down to the sump untill it runs out, IF it can be controlled and not overwhelm the AOS or get sucked into the intake. The UOAS with drainback has the ability to catch any oil that has came from the AOS after it has been overwhelmed and return it to the sump through a second drain. This means the oil level can be ran at full, and even overfilled so more oil can be pumped back to the sump by the scavenge pumps,and still not be sucked into the intake. It's quite a Dynamic Circular Physics Event that can be hard to grasp in a "screen shot" of the events, but that's what we have here.

I couldn�t agree more Paul. I�ve been not tracking my car because of its age (turning 23 in a couple months) and this oil pressure issue. I rolled the dice this time, offsetting my risk by copious amounts of prayer to the Porsche gods. EDIT: Once UDIS is available, I will feel comfortable tracking again.