28 captured repliesDiscussion pagination complete · Source accounts, not a confirmed diagnosis
THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHI Scoped The Cylinders - Thoughts?
Leading reported evidence
Run first time
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
The great news is that I got the car back together yesterday and it started and ran the first time!
Leading evidence: 'Run first time' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'otherwise' (1 discussions; 0 report identifying it and 1 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check final box' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
Source reports, not a diagnosis or a success probability. Counts refer to discussions and can overlap.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Along the way, I want to make sure that whatever preventative solutions I bolt on to the car, I want to make sure they can be used on the rebuild.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that suspect a cause
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suspected cause
If the car runs fine I'd personally say there's no reason to seek out things to fix and just drive and enjoy it until you have a reason to suspect otherwise.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that contain suggestions
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
So I want to check the final box on seeing what I really have inside the bores.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that contain suggestions
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
How many people would be running in for check-ups when there are no symptoms?
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
There are steps we all should be taking to minimize bore scoring (frequent oil changes, don't lug the engine, etc.) but bore scoping ain't one of them.
To get the data, everyone would have to get a bore scope and detail what gas and oil they use, how often they change the oil, when they replaced their sensors, injectors, etc., but it will never happen.
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
To get the data, everyone would have to get a bore scope and detail what gas and oil they use, how often they change the oil, when they replaced their sensors, injectors, etc., but it will never happen.
These are separate views of the same evidence. Frequency alone does not establish a fix, and these counts must not be added together.
otherwise
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Identified cause
1
Suspected cause
0
Reported fixes
Read evidence and context
Discussions that suspect a cause
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suspected cause
If the car runs fine I'd personally say there's no reason to seek out things to fix and just drive and enjoy it until you have a reason to suspect otherwise.
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
28 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
0 evidence records excluded for query context · 0 excluded by outcome qualification · 0 adjusted by outcome qualification.
1 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
Outcome without a verified action link
I'm still getting to know the car, contemplating a longterm relationship.
I got around to scoping the cylinders on my 996.2 today. Images to follow. I went in through the spark plugs, but I do have the oil pan off. From what I see there isn't much of a need to wiggle around with the camera.
Cylinder #4 looks the worst to me, but #5 and #6 are not far behind.
The car has sat since June. There has been a lot of work done on the top end that is documented in other threads. With all the plugs out the crank was turned clockwise several times. The black lines appeared in all three on bank 2. I'll take a look at bank 1 tomorrow. The car starts and runs great. No smoke. It does not use any oil.
I'm sure the internet will deem the engine as doomed, but I'd like to think that there is some life left in it. Let the discussion begin. Thanks for any insight or opinion you may have. Hopefully this will help some other folks figure out their cars as well.
I know what I would do - drive it, change the oil often and wait until I can't make 122MPH at the end of the Thompson straight - then I suppose I would have to fix it.
Euro, sorry to see the news. Out of curiosity over the last year, did you notice any clues for borescoring before you found it with the scope? Anything in oil tests, tapping or excessive oil burn?
No tapping. It doesn't burn any oil over 5K miles.
There is a thread on my oil analysis test which showed high fuel content in the oil. There is also a thread of mine which documents changing out the fuel injectors. The plan is to drive it for 5K more miles and do another oil analysis.
We may all be in the same position. Getting mine scoped in the next month. Everything is peaches and cream but we really don't know until we get in the bore to look around.
Jason's oil pressure stability thread lead to a lot of preventative solutions. But the next step will need to take an in depth look at all the rebuild options. The "spreadsheet" from a few years will be a good starting point. But there are more options and variations than were on the spreadsheet. And plenty of plus and minuses.
Hang in there and stay oiled.
Maybe I'm crazy, but I suspect if people went around doing invasive procedures looking for problems on any make/model they'd find things wrong. If the car runs fine I'd personally say there's no reason to seek out things to fix and just drive and enjoy it until you have a reason to suspect otherwise. Ignorance can be bliss.
Certainly don't want my message to be glass half full, because it isn't.
We have 20 year old cars with 20 year old engines. Any other 20 year old car would be long gone, sitting in a junk yard. We own Porsche's, which are kept on the road.
But...
To keep it on the road, we have to service it, replace parts and eventually rebuild our engines. Fact of mechanical life. It doesn't matter if it is a M96, mezger, 992 GT3, or a Carerra GT, the engines will eventually fail and will need a rebuild. 20-25 years is a long time in the engine world. Any engine. Any manufacturer.
Here is the trick, do everything you can to facilitate engine longevity. Plenty of new solutions that are in the process of being rolled shortly or have already been rolled out that address the major issues such as: IMS Retro/Solution, UAOS, UIDS, LN Oil Cooling system, etc. Understand them,
and use them.
But once the new solutions are rolled out and we have figured out all the application, we can then focus our posts on revisiting engine rebuild options. A few RLs have take an initial and important swipe at aggregating information on all of our options in a spreadsheet. Many of the engine builders have more capabilities and solutions today than when the initial spreadsheet was compiled. I for one am looking forward to understanding our choices and ultimately choosing a rebuild that fits with my specs.
Looking forward to keeping my 996 on the road as long as I can drive it. Then I'll park it in the garage and keep it shiny. Until then, I am driving it on and off the track.
Long live the 996.
Hah! The biggest problem is that RL can scare the he'll out of you to the point that you are afraid to start your car.
I have owned my 02 996 for 19 years. Never once scoped the bores, because I never had a reason too. No noise, no smoke, no oil guzzling. Engine is strong and pulls hard. Oil test said engine was in great shape.
But, I am in the process of preparing my car for the track again after taking a few years off. So I want to check the final box on seeing what I really have inside the bores. I suspect I dont have bore scoring. But if I do, I want to see what I have so I can adjust what oil I am using.
IMHO, the secret to preventing bore scoring and prolonging engine life is to constantly change your oil. The more you change it, the more lubrication you have. Conversely, the less you change it, the less lubrication you have because oil breaks down over time.
I am so nuts about this that since 2002, I have had over 70 oil changes which averages out to every 500 miles. The environmentalists may not be happy with me, but my car is. We will see if all the oil changes have helped with the bores. But I suspect it has.
Service, drive and enjoy your car! The 996 is an awesome car.
I'm not completely freaked out by this, but I had to know. All the conversations on the net about this problem and I wanted to know about my particular situation. I'm really good at keeping cars running for a long time. Kind of fun to see how many miles I can get out of it and the 996 is a real challenge. In another post I shared my 1972 Mercedes-Benz 280SE. I had 250K miles on it when it needed a valve job. The lower half of the engine was fine. The rust on it, Pennsylvania car, prevented me from moving forward on that project because the body wasn't going to last.
The new injectors will help reduce any overspray on the cylinder walls. I'm sure it will help burn off some of the residue on the surface of the pistons. I'm expecting some smoke with it starts up.
I've read those spread sheets and am looking at the options, but I don't feel compelled to do any of those right away. Those are big investments and the car runs great. However, I do see frequent oil changes in my future. I'd like to do the 5K mile analysis and then may reduce it to fewer miles after that. Looking at costs of oil changes and shipping.
Be encouraged folks!
Its just great to see that there is a big group of good guys that have teamed up on all of these issues to talk about their cars and share their insight. Whether my bore scope ends up being good or bad, the name of the game for me is to prolong engine life for as long as possible until I can clearly define what I am looking for in a rebuild. Along the way, I want to make sure that whatever preventative solutions I bolt on to the car, I want to make sure they can be used on the rebuild. UIDS, Oil cooler UAOS with drainback, etc, can all be used. None are wasted money.
With you bud!
I give mine to a local garage that burns it for heat. Not sure of the environmental impact of that.
The dealership I worked at in the 1970's sold their drain oil to a recycler who turned it into jet fuel.
Subbing to this thread. I just bought a targa with 102K miles and it uses a little oil. I saw blue smoke on startup the other day too. Sigh. On the other hand I'm kind of excited at the prospect of a focused rebuild. X51 anyone?
That smoke could be fuel. If you ever start your car and then shut it off quickly before it warms up, you will likely get a puff of something nasty out the exhaust.
Exactly this. Suppose you went to the doctor for colonoscopy and the only two possible results were 1) you are fine or 2) you have cancer and you are going to die. How many people would be running in for check-ups when there are no symptoms? Thank goodness that's not the case and cancer can treated and even cured if caught through early diagnosis.
Now compare this to bore scoring, once it's happening there is absolutely nothing you can do. Nothing. It's just like the colonoscopy hypothetical I describe above, so why are people doing it? If there are symptoms then it makes more sense, but now it's along the lines of, "tell me how much time I have Doc". It gives you info to get your car's affairs in order, so to speak. But when there are no symptoms, what's the point? There is no upside, at best you see nothing and remain at the status quo. There's definitely a downside though, including misinterpreting innocuous scuffing as scoring.
There are steps we all should be taking to minimize bore scoring (frequent oil changes, don't lug the engine, etc.) but bore scoping ain't one of them. I don't get why people do this to themselves unless it's part of a sale.
Edit: BTW, sorry that you found this and hopefully you get a lot more life out of it. Apologies if my rant came off as harsh, I just hate reading these threads when there are no symptoms.
I get what you are saying.
Certainly wish we had "real" stats that would tell us what the "true" percentage of 996 owners actually have it, to what degree they have it, and what was the deciding reason they got it, but we don't. To get the data, everyone would have to get a bore scope and detail what gas and oil they use, how often they change the oil, when they replaced their sensors, injectors, etc., but it will never happen. My wild *** guess is that every 20 year old engine has it in some form. But it doesn't mean that it is engine life ending unless it's really bad.
In my case, I never worried about bore scoring in my engine, because of my frequent oil changes. So I never got an oil test nor a scope until this point.
However, I tracked my car from 2004-18, and then took some time off. Now I am looking to track it again due to the new bolt on products that are in the works that will further mitigate oil starvation and oil pressure instability. UIDS and Oil Cooler. So I figured I should take a look at the bores to see what I have to create a baseline going forward as I go back on the track. Definitely not looking to create problems for myself that don't exist. More interested in knowing what I have to manage it better.
But to your point, if I wasn't going to start tracking my car again, I wouldn't be worrying about a bore scope at this stage since the oil test is good and I have no signs of bore scoring, and I know it's complete history.
Great thing is that you can test the oil and/or scope it if you want to or not. But I do believe that if you service your 996 properly with frequent oil changes and proper part replacements etc, we have a very durable and fast engine that we don't have to lose sleep over.
But isn't that the case with every 20 year old engine? Porsche, Ferrari, Ford, Chevy...
Thanks for your insights. I do appreciate the apology at the end, but it's not necessary. I respect your opinion and appreciate that you read my posting. I can see that you read the details and didn't skim over it.
I like your analogy of getting the car's affairs in order. Which is what I'm doing. Looking at blocks on LN and reading about folks that rebuilt thier engines here on Rennlist. Something that I think I will be doing in the future, but not the near future. When the time comes I believe I'll be ready to crack the case and dig in. Something I've never done before and I think it's cool to get to do it on a 911.
For me it is about understanding what condition the engine is in. Knowing what I'm working with. I bought the car sight unseen on Bring a Trailer. Something that I do not recommend as I had a terrible time and it was so bad BAT actually gave me my money back. It was a crap shoot and I stepped up to play. "How bad could it be?" I asked myself. This car is what I got.
With all the info that's out there, some fearmongering, I think I have a pretty good idea what needs to happen. What I don't want is to ignore the problem and make it worse. Those are the stories where the cylinder metal gets into everything and chews up the motor from the inside. I think I'm going to be doing frequent oil changes and monitoring the oil with both Speedtronix and Blackstone. Next year when I change the plugs I'll scope and see where it stands and put the results here on this thread.
The great news is that I got the car back together yesterday and it started and ran the first time! Looking for some fun fall driving.
All the best,
Hi, thanks for the welcome! It's a 2002 I bought kind of by accident on BaT. I put in my max bid, fully expecting the car to go up another few $K. It didn't.
I am currently riding the Raby train to see what that all looks like. I will probably poke around a bit locally as well. I enjoy this little car more than I had any idea I would; I've driven quite a few sports cars before but this is my first Porsche. I'm still getting to know the car, contemplating a longterm relationship.
I have been married to mine for 20 years and am planning for the next 20 by adding a little jewelry once its ready for sale: UIDS and Oil cooling system. She likes gifts.
