Is the Porsche SA named Ben Dover??

2003 C2 Cab. I removed the hardtop mounting hardware in order to swap it into my 997. In order to do this, the convertible tops need to be in various position between Open and Shut. Afterwards, I couldn't get the top to close all the way, so took the car to the dealership in hopes of getting it re-calibrated. The SA called and told me that not one, but both cylinders were leaking and needed replacing. Well, heck, that sounds fishy to me, but what can I say? Yesterday I got an email from him asking whether I'd received the, "estimate". No, he has not sent anything, so send it again. 6 hours later and one more reminder and still nothing. My questions are: 1. What should I expect to pay to R&R two cylinders for the top? 2. Since when does a dealer send an Estimate? What would I do, have them put things back together and charge for their time if I didn't agree to pay for it? I mean, they have the car... Any suggestions would be helpful.

Dealerships will not work on your car without your approval. It will all depend on your conversation with the SA as to whether you require an "estimate", or leave instructions to "fix as necessary". Bringing the car in for repair and signing the RO is giving approval of at least preliminary diagnosis/inspection and will usually incur a 1 hour charge for such.

A re-calibration of the top is now an estimate for $3800 to R&R two cylinders. Is that in line with normal charges for such repairs? Sounds crazy to me, but I have no frame of reference.

Thats why I always take my car to BofaDees

you lost me at BoFaDees..........

Bofadees NUTS

Bah God he done done it

Surely somebody has had work done on your top. When cylinders "leak", does the top stop at the same place every time, and acts normal at all other times? Is $3800 good, bad or ugly as far as a cost to repair?

I haven't had any issues with my top (other than the drains) but you should check with Yogibara. I don't remember if he rebuilt the cylinders or sent them out (I think the latter), but he definitely did the r&r himself. He's on here and his youtube channel is Yogi's Garage. You want his videos on project Pepper, a severely hurting 996 cab he got on eBay.

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Who?

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it's over on Sugonma

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Deak?

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Well, the cylinders themselves are already ~$1800 (MSRP, $1300 @ Sunset) for the parts. I'm not sure what else is in your estimate, but if all they're doing is replacing the cylinders, $2000 is a lot of labor... If you're capable, it's not the worst job in the world. If you get rebuilt cylinders, it'll be $800 or so (going from memory) so you'll be in it for <$1000 and whatever you need to pay the dealer for already having looked at it and to recalibrate it if necessary.

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thats the one!

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Don�t forget about Landon.

Not wanting to think that I was getting hosed by the dealer, but also not wanting to spend about 10X what I had expected to pay for a calibration, I was at their shop at 0704 this morning, and would be the first person there that would exchange my C4 for the C2 that was going to be an expensive surprise. Exchange went fine, and I drove the C2 to my local shop, after research has told me that a decent shop can do vert tops. I pulled into their parking lot and, in order to better/faster/ show the tech where the top was man-functioning.........it worked fine!! Maybe something they did on diagnostics changed things? Maybe we just got lucky, just as the bad luck had hit the first time? Whatever, things are back to normal with the C2. The C4's questions are for next week, I think.

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They probably put some fluid in it to fill it up which will temporarily make it work while you earn some more $$$$....

Adding fluid doesn't make sense, though, since they were about to R&R the cylinders. Could they have calibrated it while doing their diagnostics? Since you're the pro, though, would adding fluid be a simple enough operation that it wouldn't require any parts removal? Why do it when they were going to replace the cylinders and they didn't know I would be there the following morning? I was charged only for the diagnostics, and it doesn't seem like they would do anything for nothing.

Did they actually provide evidence of the leaking such as photos? Many dealerships are hurting these days as people are working from home and the "service due" light isn't coming on as often. Couple that with the lack of sales inventory and there's real pressure to juice things up on those that do come in. There's been a big uptick in posts over the last year where people go in for something routine and get diagnosed with surprise big dollar estimates for something with zero symptoms. Assuming it's actually real, leaks don't heal themselves but you can get away with minor seepage for a long time. My turbo had the typical failure of the rear wing hydraulics and I refilled it with some Pentosin and stop leak. I still see some dampness around one of the rams on occasion but it's worked fine for two years now, I can live with that. Get in there and check out the hydraulics for yourself. Unless fluid is literally dribbling out (like a stream) I'd tell the dealership to go pound sand and use the time to look into rebuilt units and a DIY replacement. Even if it is a serious leak that needs immediate attention, the dealership is not the place to get it fixed.

BTW, don't forget the service advisor is a commissioned salesman, his pay depends on how much parts and repair work he sells you. With fewer "white collar professionals" coming in for $500 oil changes, he's going to have to make that up somewhere. Most folks don't willingly accept a pay cut, the service advisor is no different. There's a huge incentive to sell you stuff you don't need.

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Red Flag 1: SA is a 20-something and doesn't inspire confidence just because he has not BTDT on cars Red Flag 2: My removing hardtop rear mounting hardware shouldn't have jostled much of anything except for maybe those side flaps. For a re-calibration to turn into a complete cylinder R&R because one leaked just didn't sit well. I told him I was selling the car, so one would be all I needed if it was bad and was causing the top not to go down all the way. NOTE: what symptoms would be noticed with leaking cylinders? My tops worked just fine until they stopped in the same place, every time. Red Flag 3: He then told me that both cylinders were leaking, so both needed fixing, and that the window not going down when door opened might be caused by the cylinders, too??? Red Flag 4: One window regulator turned into an R&R for two of them...for $1400. I have one on order for $150... Red Flag 5: The top now works with only a "diagnostic" charge (he did not know that I was going to retrieve the car; I just showed up at 0700)

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Adding fluid to top off the hydraulic reservoir is an incredible easy procedure for a Pro, and was probably done as a gracious gesture or even as part of diagnosis to ensure no other faults ( not uncommon to have more than 1 thing wrong with a system.) I know it's a common perception here that Dealerships are "out to get you", but my experience in the reputable shops I have worked in is that there is plenty of things wearing out and breaking that there is no need to "sell some that it doesn't need".. It pays the same to "sell something needed" as it does to "sell something not needed" so why do it ?? In the old days in Dealerships we didn't even charge for diagnosis, it was assumed that the customer was going to fix the problem, just needed an estimate on cost. As the cars got more complicated, and customer started refusing repairs and would take the car to Independents to get the repair (after getting the diagnosis) or DIY ,It became necessary to charge for diagnosis. The Technician probably assumed there was a 50-50 chance you would refuse the repair and just take the diagnosis/estimate do something else. All the Dealerships I have worked for were on the up-and-up, and we were still hit with bad customer surveys.( which is a REALLY big deal these days) . I remember having a "Secret Shopper" come through the shop that dinged us for not finding the Glove Box Light fault he had created prior to bringing it in, during our "free Inspection". He had disconnected the glove box light on purpose and gave us a bad score for not finding it on our free inspection !!!

I'd like to think the best of them, too, because the indie around here is 6 weeks out on work scheduling. That said, if the SA knew that I was selling the car, could he have thought through things with the customer in mind? Example being the door regulators. When only the driver's door wasn't working right, why add the passenger door's regulator for an extra $700 for a car being sold? Anyway, they now have the C4 in their shop because the flaps aren't working right. Maybe I bumped something, or maybe an adjustment or calibration, but IF another diagnosis comes in for major work, what are the odds that both cars were just fine, and now they're falling apart? What symptoms do leaking cylinder's have, and IF they leak with no visible signs, is there a place that fluid can gather inside the car and be contained?

When my cylinder began leaking, the first thing I noticed was a fluid leak in front of the driver's rear wheel. Looked like brake fluid, but it was in the wrong place for that. After a few days, the top began to act wonky, so I took it to my tech. He recommended doing the replacement in pairs, which made sense to me. He shipped them to a place in south FL who does an exchange program with rebuilt cylinders. I think the total cost was around $1500, but that was about 7-8 years ago.

...you made your point with the top acting weird. Mine is like new. I have a 996 and a 997, both cabs, so comparing is easy.

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No doubt there are some really good ones out there, and it's also less likely to be taken to the cleaners if you have a long term relationship with the dealer. That being said, there are way too many $500 oil change and $3500 brake job dealership stories on the boards here. It seems to have gotten notably worse as of late, and it's not just Porsche dealers. A couple of days ago in the 997 forum a guy was quoted $500 for a wheel alignment by a dealership. Absurd. In the 997 Turbo forum we recently had a guy who got his PDK clutch fluid serviced and was charged for 6 liters at $52 each ($312). The most it can hold after a drain is 4 liters and you can get it from Sunset Porsche for $22 each ($88). Even charging the MSPR is only $30/liter ($120). We had a guy quoted $8k for a new front diff when the only issue was that an axle seal was seeping (they are replaceable). He reported no problems but it was found during an inspection. I think the techs are honest here so please don't take my comments the wrong way. My issue is with the service advisors who are *commissioned* and can make up pretty much any price they want. Plus they can turn rather innocuous findings from the tech (e.g. repairable seepage) into multi-thousand dollar part replacements. How often are brake jobs done where they don't recommend replacing every rotor? Do they actually request a measurement of wear and runout or just automatically sell the customer new ones? In my experience it's the latter. Who in the dealership keeps them honest? Why do they do it? Short term greed. It's easier to fleece moneyed dimwits out of several $k and move on to the next mark than to build a long-term relationship with a good customer. I'm not saying every Porsche dealership is like this, but many are. On top of that the burdened labor rates are ridiculous because the overhead is so high. I get that running a Porsche dealership with glass fa�ades, a cafe latte bar, and fancy furniture is expensive, but poor business efficiency doesn't justify charging 1.5x to 2x that of an indy. It's a pretty messed-up system. Anyways, apologies for the rant and I appreciate the work you do Porschetech3 and you contributions here on the board. Sounds like your experience was with the good dealerships that valued their customers. It would be nice if we had a list of the good ones, and in particular the good service advisors.

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As far as the window regulators go, a Pro will know exactly"how far" the window is supposed to drop,as customer usually does not any only knows its an issue when the window "catches when opening". A Pro will know that the regualtor is wearing down and" will soon be catching when opening". No thing worse than having a Customer say " why didn't you tell me it was going bad and need replacing also so soon??" No good deed goes unpunished, trying to save customers some cost by deferring a repair for later more times than not , will look bad on the Technician/Shop than on the Customer. Also as far as things go in shops, it common occurrence for Customers to become more "aware" of things on the car after a repair. Customers will "come back" and say my car wasn't doing this "before"...Happens all the time, so much it becomes a joke in the Shop. Things like noisy tires are a prime example,It was already there, tires have good tread and are not dangerous, and the Technician assumes the Customer is aware the Tires are noisy and just wearing them down before replacing. But after doing a repair they suddenly "hear the noise" and get worried and start finger pointing..

My personal back ground includes over 100 cars, a dozen or more each of boats and cycles, and 2 planes. I like things with engines, and keep them well. Mid-DIYer and my repair shops were usually indies that were closer than dealers, or seemed to get it right and I could deal with the wrench himself. I get that a lot of techs aren't people persons, and prefer mechanics to customers, but the techs that started shops had both skill sets and I liked that because I could learn things, or at least know why something was done. This OP began as a simple swapping out of the hardtop's rear mounting hardware from the 996 to the 997. They are on top of everything, of course, but for reasons I can only blame myself for, Both cars' tops failed to close properly after that. Another thread, and "calibration" seemed to be the fix for both of them, so I took the 996 in first and expected the car back with not much in the way of price since a calibration shouldn't be too much more expensive than programming a key; it's all electrons talking to each other. How that morphed into a $5400 estimate boggles the mind. The 997 got a complete brake R&R for less than $500, and the window regulator will cost $150 instead of $700, so the more I learn, the more I appreciate those that know what they're doing (like techs), and the more I watch when I'm told that, ". ..problem X wasn't much, but did you know that problem Y is about to kill your car?"

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Thanks for the kind words, much appreciated. Yes I have always worked for very highly reputable Dealerships that very much valued the Customers. I have seen some of the pricing listed here from other Porsche Shops that I though was outrageous as well. But being in Bama and a lot of the Shops were in high-cost-of-living-areas, I guess that has some to do with it...but I was still in " sticker shock"...lol The first Delaership I worked for was 100 year old business that had a sign hanging in the shop the read :: Rules for Customer Service :: Rule #1: The Customer is always right. Rule #2 : If the Customer IS wrong, refer to Rule #1. And they conducted business like that for the 2 decades I worked there.........very successfully..

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You are very lucky to have found such places to work. Up here in the Northeast the majority of dealers work on PT Barnum's theorem. A case in point, one of my co-workers brought his 4 cylinder Honda Accord to a large dealership chain up here for an airbag recall. The SA told him that he needed to change his timing belt IMMEDIATELY or the engine would self destruct! He was actually in tears when he called me, and 10 seconds of Google search showed that a 4 cylinder Honda uses a timing chain.

Video from the Car Wizard (Dave Lang) from several months back on a Panamera. The brake pad sensor light came on and the dealership claimed he needed new pads, rotors, calipers, hoses, and a master cylinder. The customer called BS and took it to Car Wizard, all it needed was pads and rotors. You Tube Dave has been talking about how this seems to becoming much more common, and it's not just Porsche dealerships. I think he's right and it's being driven by Covid-related stuff, fewer service visits and lower sales inventory. Looks to me that they have made a decision to gouge people now and worry about the consequences later.

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I totally believe this story. Dealership Service Advisors especially in Honda Dealers are very "un-Technically educated" people, they may have a good personality but that's about it unless they have over 10 years in the job, then they may learn the difference between which models have "timing chains" and which have "timing belts "or which ones are "interference motors"...lol My instinct calls Bull**** on this one, I would have to see that estimate in writing, it may just have been a SA talking hypothetically out his ***, which happens. I get the high cost of Dealerships, and know Dave needs to Toot-his-own-horn, but he just sent that car out with a severely worn left front tire, I'm not impressed. If it had been in my stall we would have a conversation about the alignment on that car, and the need for matched tires . There would never be any talk of calipers, lines, or master cyl. If you really want to look at the Technicians point of view, an engine replacement on a 911 labor book time is about 8 hours pay. at $25 per hour, that's $200 before taxes..( yes I have done many of them and they are NOT my favorite job). Even if the Total comes out to $20k-$25K, doesn't matter , and I would never let an SA sell that job if it wasn't needed. The problem with SA's is that they are not usually Technically inclined . Finding an SA with "people skillz''and is also "Technically knowledgeable" is very hard. And when the Customer has more Technical Knowledge than the SA there can be a big misunderstanding. Why do Technicians like me even work in Dealerships? It's pretty simple, we like fixing cars and a good work environment, Plus an air conditioned shop.lol

I was a parts manager at a Mercedes dealership in early nineties( have mechanical background)��.. i have seen a lot,from many different perspectives.I could write a book�..nuff said.

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I bet you could !!! And please do offer your thoughts when you are comfortable, it could be a nice contrasting perspective at times...

Poor hiring, poor training and oversight of employees is major factor.Example.S.A’s just push warranty work because they were afraid to actually talk to customer about cost of servicing car. Mercedes -Benz at that time was only paying18% for parts but paying retail labor and S.A.’s were getting commission on wty parts.Add insult to injury parts dept was paying half of the commission of the S.A.’s! Talk about poor business model. I did not receive a “direct”commission on parts , I was paid on NET profit which was a farce,I had very little or no control over most of the expenses.Looking over the spreadsheet I could tell how often the owners Bertram boat was used……… rant over…..

On both of my previous 996s the brakes were shot. If my memory serves correct, the Porsche dealership(s) wanted almost $1000 per wheel to replace the rotors, pads, and sensors. I did all the brakes myself for less than $700 with aftermarket parts. Car stopped on a dime. Personally, dealerships are all in the same game, to get in your wallet... not talking pocket pool here guys. I know some of you would enjoy that! Like a buzzard circling it's prey, luxury car dealerships usually take advantage of people that have tons of money to burn. Not just service, but other things like add-ons, modifications, and expensive merch. Please tell me no one here has bought their driving gloves or tea cup set! haha When it comes to repair, always become knowledgable of the problem and for goodness sakes, get another estimate from a different shop.

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Unfortunately this seems to apply to any brand of dealership these days...

Used to be the Dealerships didn't even want a Service Dept. , the Manufactures forced it on them or they couldn't sell New Cars. Nowadays the Dealerships use the Service Dept. to pay ALL the bills of the Dealership ie. power, water, phone ect... and the Sales Dept. is used for the profit..

Back to one of the original early questions of this thread regarding leaking cylinders: I DIY R&R'd my cylinders on my 2002 cab this past winter. I sent them out to Cabriolet Hydraulics in Sarasota. Completely rebuilt OEM cylinders, a charge of fluid, shipping, and instructions all for under $500.00. More if you need your pump serviced. I did not need any kind of top recalibration once I put everything back together and cycled the system half a dozen times to purge air. The top had not moved on it's own in over 8 years (previous owner) and it was raised / lowered manually after using the buttons for the clamshell actuation only. I can't imagine the failure mode that would require a recalibration if mine didn't need one.

� - and little to no technical knowledge/ability... I�ve said this a few times before here - I�ve taken my car to the local Porsche dealership three times. Twice, I wound up having to pay to fix something that wasn�t broken when I dropped the car off. This wasn�t something that they found and suggested to fix it before something went wrong - they literally broke it... 🙄

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I set foot in a Porsche dealer for the first time in my life yesterday to have the key fob/key I bought from Suncoast programmed. I sat in front of the big glass partition in front of the service department. The thing that struck me the most (other than how clean and organized it was) was that there wasn't a technician in the place who could have been older than 35 and I'll bet most of them were in their late 20s. I was really surprised at that. Makes me wonder what the collective experience level is in the shop. The other thing was how relaxed everybody was. No one was in a hurry to do anything. When I was tech, the shop foreman would yell at us if he saw us walking to the parts department too slowly.

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I heard that !!! 30-40 years ago the Dealerships Technicians were ALL old farts....lol