IMS Solution Retrofit

Well, after the recent spate of postings relating to engine failures (IMS, rod bolts etc.), the statistics from the class action suit for 2004 MY, and my car approaching 75,000 miles soon, I decided to bite the bullet and get my IMS upgraded. I'm going with the IMS Solution. My car is at Callas Rennsport in Torrance. My experience to date with Tony Callas (who teaches the Worldpac engine class with Jake Raby), Tom and their crew has been great so far. I dropped my car off last week and Tony walked me through the pre-qualification procedure, took me on a test drive and spent time with me while he checked the OBD system with his scanner -- explaining each indicator and the results. Since Tony was about to fly off to teach the class with Jake, last weekend, he invited me back to his shop today to watch the IMS bearing extraction procedure. I was able to watch as they pulled the bearing out of my car and examine the bearing after the seals were removed. The shaft/stud was in good condition without any play, and the race and bearings still in position -- however, it was clear that the seals were not keeping the engine oil out. I am the third owner of the car and have changed the oil at 3 to 5k mile intervals and the prior owners seemed to service within 10k intervals until 39,000 miles on the odometer. While I don't know whether or how much longer the stock bearing would have lasted, I am happy that I will not have to worry about the failure. Of course, I think Porsche got off easy by hiding statistics and failures for over a decade and the settlement didn't help those of us who might have a failure in the future. Shame on Porsche.

Good decision. Now drive the snot out of it!

I thought I'd read under the various IMS threads, that one of the Jack Raby solutions included lubricating the bearing with engine oil - vs. just relying on the "sealed in" grease that the seals supposedly contain. If that's true, why would allowing engine oil to get into the bearing be "bad"?

After spending the last week with Tony, I can say you are working with one of the very very best.

Yes, the IMS solution has an oil feed. The issue is that the Porsche stock bearing is a "sealed" bearing with grease. The seals did not keep the oil out, allowing oil to seep in and wash the grease out. My understanding is that this is one potential cause of bearing failure if dirty motor oil stays in the bearing and is not "refreshed" with new oil (possibly because the seals remain in place). The oil in my bearing looked to be in relatively good condition and my last oil change was 3000 miles ago or less. While Jake can chime in -- the LN Ceramic bearings don't have seals and are intended to be lubed by splash oil - BY DESIGN (unlike the OEM Porsche design). Since my bearing looked pretty good, I have to imagine that it was getting sufficient splash lubrication for the past 73,000 miles with pretty fresh oil since at least 39k when I purchased the vehicle, since I changed the oil at short intervals.

Thanks for sharing. It's not too surprising though as most owners who did the retrofit also found the same. I have to ask though, what's going on at the circled spots on the cage?

[Deleted - see later post on page 4].

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That makes sense.

I wish I could afford the services of Mr. Callas - so it is interesting to see and read about their impressive work. Thanks for sharing . It would be interesting to read about which issues were discussed for: "while we're in there"..... Obvoiusly RMS ,probably clutch plate , but DMF ,gearbox , CV joints/boots ?

I requested a new AOS, Water-pump and low temp thermostat based on the info on this forum. We also discussed new RMS, chain tensioners, clutch and flywheel (currently have the original flywheel and my clutch and rms was replaced around 45k). Tom and Tony are preparing a list for me to review with their recommendations. I may need to delay some of the work until a later date -- even though it will cost me more in the future since it will require dropping the tranny again. Cost is definitely a factor in what will get done this time and what will get done in a year or two. But, I figured that selling this car and getting a 2009 or later model would cost me about the same in sales tax alone, not to mention the 30k premium. I had some warranty work done on the gearbox under CPO warranty about December 2013, so no need for gearbox work at this time. I only hope I can get the 224,000 miles that another 40 AE owner recently posted on this forum [996 40th Anniversary Edition Registry & FAQ]! If that is the case it will be money well spent. Callas Rennsport also has a special on its website for the LN ceramic single row pro - approximately $2,500. Again, not chump change -- but better than $15,000 to $25,000 for a blown engine. I decided I didn't want to be "self-insured" any longer after reading about some higher mileage failures on this board, and knowing that the 10% failure rate reported in the Porsche class action settlement does not include the ones that continue to fail.

Good call in my book. I had the IMS retrofit, RMS, clutch, and water pump done on mine last week. Sleep a whole lot better at night because of it. Alan

I am doing an M96 rebuild myself . In my case, the clutch friction plate and RMS are inexpensive and minimal labor cost (look on Pelican Parts -near to Rennsport) The DMF is easy & quick to test so they will tell you how worn it is. If you drive gently ,you may get 100k from it .Some are due for replacement at 40k. The LUK replacement is available from Rock Auto or Pelican. It is just a part cost.The incremental labor to replace the DMF is trivial. Good luck with the work- whatever you decide.

Very true. I'm not driving the 996 as much as I did in the past 2 years, so I'll probably try and get some more mileage out of the clutch and flywheel for now. I think it is great that you are doing your own rebuild. I might get there one day.

I try to discourage anyone but an expert with much time & money to squander from rebuilding/refreshing an M96. I grade myself "F" for that ill-informed decision - actually FFF. It is F ascinating but F inancially F oolish. I have been quite economical doing it but have spent well over $5000 on machining,parts,tools and materials. And I started 10 months ago. Nearly done but then there is the 6 speed gearbox to 'do' ! but it is addictive - I am looking for another distressed 3.2 to rebuild. I already have a second gearbox.Sad, so sad.

I hear you. I'd have to take Jake's and Tony's class first, then probably spend so much on tools that it wouldn't really make sense.

"I have been quite economical doing it but have spent well over $5000 on machining,parts,tools and materials." That's not bad for something that would have cost you $10,000 at a bare minimum and more likely closer to $20,000. Hopefully you've done everything right - in which case you get a big payoff!

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Are the cylinders fine or they need re-sleeving?

Ashai, Damn you - you always ask the difficult questions ! :-). I intend to postpone all analysis of my M96 rebuild until I get some miles n it. Then I can write a succinct confessional of my sins to help others contemplating the same foolishness. I have been rebuilding for 10 months so it would have been a very fragmented soap opera if I posted in a blog-like build thread. Re-sleeving - I spent a huge amount of time measuring the bores and plotting dimensions to 1/10th of a thou. I have the equipment and am familiar with that arcane world from work. My impression was it was O.K.at 90k miles. I was surprised and did the measurements over and over. God that is tedious and time consuming. The question is - what is a functional standard for an older engine? and at what rate would it deteriorate? Time will tell and then I'll publish. I doubt a compression/leak-down test would be a meaningful surrogate test/evaluation -at least until the new rings settle in.

"Re-sleeving - I spent a huge amount of time measuring the bores and plotting dimensions to 1/10th of a thou. I have the equipment and am familiar with that arcane world from work. My impression was it was O.K.at 90k miles." It sounds like you did your due diligence... So, no amount of "hand wringing" is going to change "at what rate would it deteriorate?" The bottom line is that nobody knows (even they guys who "know everything" or more correctly "have seen everything"...) because there are so many variables involved (How many modes of failure are there now?). I honestly hope this all ends well for you, as it sounds like you're stressing over it. Here's to 100,000 mi. on your rebuilt engine!

Thank you for your wishes. I thought I had enough Engineering to tackle this task. It has been humbling. I tell people it is more like deciding that after a few Miata engines you can easily move up to g/t helicopter engines. It is so unforgiving and opaque. The great value of this Forum is if we share experience good and particularly bad .So it would have been insincere of me to crow that I had got it back together (relatively) easily - after 10 months and $5000+ ! All that matters to most of us is - if it fails ,where did I screw up and how do you prevent that on a future build. That is why I am looking for a second 3.2l M96 to build.I already have the second 6 speed. So sad.

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Haha, because that's a $3-4k question Props to you for rebuilding the engine yourself and placing a $5k+ bet on it. I look forward to your thread to gain insights from your successful rebuild! For evaluation of success, I would expect (after the rings settle) dyno results, mpg numbers, oil and coolant temp, used oil analysis and oil consumption over some mileage (a few k's?) will be good indication of the health of the engine?

This is a familiar dilemma to anyone who dabbled in say V12's - Jaguars,BMW or Mercedes. When the cars age, it doesn't matter how fantastic they used to be - if your first repair cost exceeds what you paid for the car -it is over. And the used car marketplace is a cruel judge of such folly. For example the Triumph TR7 was awful,eventually they got it right and the TR8 was great. The later good cars were guilty by association and worthless regardless of merit. So unless we can find affordable/diy solutions to M96 & 6 speed gearbox rebuilds ,the older Boxsters are doomed .They will become sub $5k cars. The ones that have not already failed need preventatives that are affordable - like the 2nd gear detent fix, the right engine oil, low temp thermostats,DOF? etc. For most of us the $20k Raby rebuild is unjustifiable ,unfortunately.

First off, great choice selecting an IMS Solution Certified Installer for the job. There's a reason why Tony and I instruct together, too. Secondly, people are confusing the IMS Solution with an oil fed OEM bearing kit. Its NOT! The IMS Solution is a plain bearing that relies on oil pressure to support the IMSB. The IMS Solution eliminates the ball bearing from the equation. On the topic of classes: I resigned from Worldpac the beginning of this week. They wanted to do away with the M96 class, and on top of that it was too much corporate nonsense for a guy like me. I am turning up the volume on my own classes which will be more webinars, more hands on classes and etc. My new training facility is now complete and we hosted the first class there last week with an outstanding response from attendees, some of which are posting in this thread. Soon I'll split the enthusiast and pro classes and alter their content. The next Class is "M96 203", Hi performance engine and its been sold out for 4 months. Here's Tony Callas and I with our first M96 102 Class of 2015, having completed the M96 engine thats center stage. The longest distance award went to Greg Soh, who traveled from Singapore for the class; second place to Des Golden who traveled from Ireland. There were many Canadians as well! This engine is being utilized to test new rod and main bearings, and running clearances.

Sorry Jake if my description was not clear. When I referred to the splash lubrication I was referring to the single row pro retrofit, not the Solution which I know is the oil fed plain bearing that eliminates the failure modes of the balll bearing/cage set up. Can't wait to get my car back from Callas Rennsport. I'm very appreciative that you have shared the technology with these "certified installers," hopefully more will sign up across the country so that others have the option close to where they reside. I also look forward to attending one of your enthusiast classes in the future. p.s. - Maybe you and Tony could do an enthusiast class at his shop in Torrance for all of us out here in So. Cal. That would be great.

Yes, lots of people are confusing the DOF arrangement with the technology of the IMS Solution, because both have an oil feed line. They coulkdn't be more different! It doesn't matter if they "sign up" or not... We hand pick prospects for the Certified Installer program from those who attend my hands on classes. This is an invuitation only selection, and once selected the evaluation process begins. This includes written exams, a site visit to the shop where more evaluation is done, and then finally the Certified Installers must follow a striuct Code Of Conduct with every job that they do. I have stripped a Certification because of one mistake being made, and there are no second chances. I have shops wanting to sign up all the time and I tell them to attend the class and IF their skills impress Charles and I that they might get selected to begin the process. In last week's class we had 15 attendees, of those I invited two to the evaluation process. The first one will be in June 2015. We only plan to have classes here at my Training Facility, where we are set up for classes at all times. Having a class at a shop has too many caveats and impacts the shop negatively. Its imperative that I have all my props, broken parts, and my resource materials handy. I also have an exceptional presentation area that can't be rivaled in any other atmosphere.

I did my own IMS bearing retrofit using the DOF kit and the LN Engineering tools. Its not that difficult. There is no magic or mystery skill required, just follow the directions and have suitable tools for removing the transmission. The only scary part was cutting the hole for the oil feed. Its still not that difficult, just a bit intimidating to grind a hole in your engine crankcase. I did mine on the ground, with the car on jackstands. In retrospect, I would much prefer to have had it on a lift. For an old fart like me, all that crawling under and out from under the car gets old quick.

If you have the time, skill, tools and inclination to do the project that is great and a big money saver. Personally, I like smaller DIY projects but am not ready to drop the transmission, replace IMS, RMS, AOS, clutch, chain tensioners on my own yet. Can't imagine doing all that without a lift, although I know many of you can do so.

Alabama - By "DOF" ,do you mean the LN product (which does not use the acronym DOF ) called"The IMS Solution" ? http://theimssolution.com/ or the TuneRs product with the oil-feed line that snakes over from the cam cover to a conventional deep-groove ball bearing IMSB ? http://shop.tunersmotorsports.com/?p...05-early-style I ask because there is a huge difference in cost/technology/hacking.

If he is, he hasn't ever been more wrong!

I interpreted his comment as using another vendor's DOF product, not the LN IMS Solution, but he used the LN tools to remove his existing IMS.

Should be picking up the car tomorrow or early next week. Can't wait for all that extra HP from the IMS Solution (just kidding folks).

Here is the IMS Solution: http://theimssolution.com/ Here is the DOF: http://www.pedrosgarage.com/Site_2/TechnoFix_DOF.html Can everyone see the differences?

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If you are attentive there are some differences that you'll note.

What does Jake say about the Pedros Garage DOF video. Does Jake think it would be a good idea to add the DOF to a double row LN bearing. Would it cause problems? I look at the video and it seems like a good idea to me but many time what seems like a good idea to me is not such a good idea after all. The BEST solution INMHO is the IMS Solution with the plain bearing but unfortunately that can not be installed in the original double row bearing cars.

Looking forward to it, I'll post my impressions after having some drive time.

JDArthur Yours is a good question. Strangely the TuneRs people(DOF) are much like Vertex/EPS(roller bearing) in their response to your challenge. They just say "we have had no failures". But they seemed unwilling to say how many they sold ,which were tracked etc. Understandably ,they may be reluctant to enter a public debate with some Rennlisters ....... But you would think if they had verifiable confidence in their product ,they would support it in a polite Forum like this ? Even if they said" we think it will work but you are really on your own" that would help us know where the risk is.

Hopefully the DOF vendors and Pedro consulted one of these guys: http://www.timken.com/EN-US/products...ence-Guide.pdf http://www.rkbbearings.com/admin/ges...1271884609.pdf

My hope is that Jake will reply to this because I believe he has tried everything. If it was as easy as adding a direct feed oil line I think he would have designed something like that. I am only interested out of curiosity and the hunger for knowledge and I'm trying to get it the easy way.

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The only mistake I ever made was not patenting ALL the ideas and things we have developed. Good, bad, and ugly. Lesson learned.

The IMS retrofit (not solution) requires you to cut a hole in your engines crank case?

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ONLY if you are also outfitting the engine with the DOF kit. The standard LN Classic and IMS Pro kits do NOT require this modification, and all of those technologies are not recommended to be outfitted with the DOF kit. The IMS Solution does require crankcase modifications. I am developing a new tool now that will simplify this modification for the IMS Solution install, making it a more straight forward fitment.

The Solution mod is simple and does not compromise the case in any way, its merely a cut in the flange where the block and the trans meet about 3/4" square.

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While this is technically correct, it's not as "bad" or difficult as it may sound. The portion of the "crankcase" that the oil line passes through is actually just the flange where the crankcase and transmission bolt together - in other words, it's not like you're drilling into the crankcase in an area that contains oil or coolant.

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Me too!

Jake will you let us know why its not recommended to add the DOF to the LN bearing?

Please start a new post -- as the use of DOF with new LN Bearings deserves its own thread with a correct title so others will know the answer. Now back to my topic....

I wanted to update the response posted earlier about the bearing wear noted on my IMS bearings (at least 2 with some damage to the inside rim of the bearing). It is not clear what the cause of the damage is, as it could be from the faulty seal allowing the grease to wash out and wear metals or other debris or heat causing the damage. The bearing is being sent to Jake, so maybe he can inspect and provide his expert opinion.

^ Who did the install?^ Was it a Flat Six/LN qualified tech? How many miles on the bearing with the noticeable damage? Was the engine qualified for imsb replacement after the damaged bearing was removed (and was there any debris in the oil?) ? Do you also have the spin on oil filter and low temp. thermostat? Sorry for so many questions, but they all seem relevant to this discussion.

Yes -- Callas Rennsport Torrance (Tony Callas) is an approved IMS Solution Installer. I had 73,000 miles on the odometer. I purchased the car in December 2011 with 39,000 on the clock. I change my oil on short intervals and always cut open the oil filter and have never seen metallic particles on the filter media nor in the oil drain pan. I drive mostly highway miles at speeds of 70 to 85 (mostly 6 gear) on the highway. I had no type II engine over-revs, and personally have only redlined it once while passing someone in 1st or 2nd gear. The car had excellent service records from the two prior owners both of whom serviced at Hoehn Porsche, Carlsbad.

While on a side step from the original topic since Jake posted a pic, Jake and Tony hold an incredible M96 class. With Jake's new facility, you wouldn't want to train anywhere else, it is above and beyond. The only issue you will have is finding ideas of ways to spend money on your own garage when you get back home For the enthusiast, shop owner, or technician, it is worth every penny, even if you think you know it all.....you don't. I've been working on these cars professionally since about 04, and I learned a ton! Jake and Tony are both an incredible source of knowledge, and work very well together to keep the class informative and entertaining at the same time. It's hands on, jump in and get a motor built as a collective effort. I can't recommend it enough. From Jake's original picture, that is my ugly mug on the right

So you stated that your car has had at least 2 IMSB's... "(at least 2 with some damage to the inside rim of the bearing)" Sorry for my confusion, but it's a little unclear to me whether you've changed the bearing 2x in the 34,000 mi. you've had it, (once when you bought the car) or that the original bearing (with 73,000 mi. on it) was damaged when you decided to have it changed...

If you look at the photo of my bearing, you will see 2 of the metal bearings that have some damage -- see yellow circles on the photo on earlier post from Ahsai. I believe the IMS bearing removed was the original with the car -- so only 1 IMSB just replaced with the IMS Solution. I was replacing pro-actively and had no knowledge of damage until Callas Rennsport pulled the IMS bearing and removed the seals as part of the Solution install. Capisce?

Got it! Thanks for your patience So there was 73,000 mi. on the original bearing with no real outward signs of impending failure, but upon removing the bearing it was clearly damaged (as seen in the photos - those aren't the "bearings" btw, they're the cages - I wonder what the b-alls looked like) and would have failed in a fairly short period of time. All the best with "The Solution"...

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Doc, Thanks for the kind words.. I guess I can refer to this post as your testimonial? :-) Glad you liked my lair, it took me almost a year of hammer swinging to get it to the state you experienced it. I worked on the engine room this week, lots of stainless, some granite and steel tubing. Adding a nice, heavy, glass door next week with a pretty cool logo etched into it! As far as the IMSR is concerned: Callas Rensport is an IMS Solution CERTIFIED INSTALLER. This means that the company was hand picked after attending all of our classes, and technicians were evaluated and met my approval. The evaluation process never ends for a Certified Installer, as each bearing that is extracted must be sent in for evaluation, along with a registration report, that includes photos of the job. Certified Installers must follow a Code Of Conduct to maintain their status. Attaining the Certified Installer status isn't easy, maintaining it is 10X tougher. One bad call. One situation where an engine is not properly qualified, or one displeased customer, and the Certification is lost with no possibility of reinstatement. I have done this once to a shop in the NE already, and I don't play games when my technology is at risk. No second chances are given.

I thought that was the roller bearing that had the damage...but I certainly am no expert.

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Even though this deserves it's own thread, I'll just touch on it. The bearing only needs about 4 cc of oil per minute for cooling and lubrication. The engine is already a wet sump and the IMS is in the bottom of the sump. If you have an open bearing, it's getting tons of oil already. No DOF is needed. Hell, the IMS Solution, which is a plain bearing designed to run on a film of oil, will run without it's oil line almost indefinitely - there's that much oil there. Jake has a video and used IMS Solution as proof of this. Under no circumstances should a DOF be installed with one of our retrofit kits. They don't know our tolerances - what if the flange isn't 100% perfect or machined differently than ours. It can case the failure they are looking to prevent. It would be like saying because they are both Japanese, that parts should be interchangeable between a Toyota and Honda.