Ouch, guess I need a clutch..

Well, my new car needs a clutch and flywheel.. Car is at the Indy shop right now getting IMS, RMS, and AOS done. Upon inspection they found my pressure plate is toast, and my dual mass flywheel is apparently leaking fluid...? Clutch: $700 Flywheel: $1000 I can find Sachs clutch kits online for $450, and LUK flywheels for about $450. Anybody run LUK flywheels before, or have any other recommendations?

I believe our LWFW is manufactured by Luk. What fluid is it leaking?

Any reputable place to buy them where I can get it shipped and delivered quickly that doesn't cost an arm and a leg?

The Luk flywheel from Pelican is $751 (for my car) - so it's still bucks, but at least it's a few hundred cheaper. I haven't shopped around a lot for flywheels, but maybe someone will chime in about the reseller with the best price...

I don't remember the year of your car - but Pelican offers kits if you want all the clutch-related gear: http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/...TCLUTC_pg1.htm

Well, I've found this, with free 2 day shipping, $1200 for both: Amazon.com: Sachs Clutch Kit: Automotive Amazon.com: Sachs Clutch Kit: Automotive Amazon Amazon

Strange DMF if it has "Fluid" in it. You have a 6 speed not tip right? TSB 911 (996) 8/02 1360 Dual Mass Flywheel Check procedure http://www.renntech.org/forums/index...-procedurepdf/ Can the dual Mass Flywheel be twisted approx. 15mm in each direction (0.590”), left/right, and does it return to approximately its initial position? If so it is good. Can the DMF be twisted beyond dim stated above without a noticeable increase in the spring force ? Or is it fixed (no rotation?) if so bad

Go up to the "Market place" in the header and pick "Venders" in the drop down. Find someone near to you. Maybe better/quicker shipping?

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I just went and looked at it in person, definitely some hydraulic fluid coming out of it. Shop manager said that's pretty rare. He was also very surprised because on the test drive he thought the clutch felt very good, however it's worn down almost to the rivets..

Man, you're getting introduced to the pain of Porsche ownership early! I at least got 10 good months out of mine before feeling the pain. Still, once you get it right, you'll love the car. My car came with a lightweight flywheel. I'd suggest avoiding those. Maybe it's because I drive in heavy traffic a lot, but it can get annoying after 90+ minutes moving from 1st to 2nd to 1st a couple hundred times.

While it certainly sucks, at least I'll know my motor isn't likely to grenade in the next year or two, and I'll have a brand new clutch

Are you sure the "hydraulic fluid" is not just oil leak from RMS/IMS that the clutch picked up? The clutch/pressure plate/flywheel have no hydraulic components on them.

This is the email I got: Ryan, We've got everything out. Rather disturbing news. There is almost nothing left of the clutch plate, and even worse, the dual mass flywheel is leaking viscous fluid . Both items really need to be replaced, however they are very pricey. Clutch runs $700, FLywheel almost $1100. If you are in the area in the next couple of hours, or even in the morning, I would like to show you exactly what I am talking about. Just let me know if that will work for you. I went and looked at it and there was fluid in the bolt holes of the flywheel, IDK how fluid would get there unless it was coming from within the flywheel?

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You beat me to it Ahsai. If your Indy doesn't know that those parts have no hydraulic components on them then he is either pulling your leg or he just doesn't know any better ( in either case I would find another indy)

I misspoke, he said viscous fluid.

With the mileage you bought it at, I'm guessing this is the first clutch replacement? Or do you have records indicating otherwise?

I have a giant list of receipts but I didn't look through them all. I'm *guessing* this is the first clutch replacement based on the condition.

Well, with the mileage it had a good run. RIP. I'm planning on the IMS work this spring but with "only" 50K on a strong clutch, do I replace it? Or do I wait? That's a tough question, but from what I read in these forums, clutches seem to last.

I have no idea really... The original clutch on my 540i lasted almost 90k (which has similiar HP as the 996, but weighs more and has about 60ft lbs more torque), the M5 clutch was toast after 55k and again at 114k. My old e30 318is had a clutch last over 125k if the first owner is to be believed. I think it depends entirely on your driving style and type of driving you do.

My 99's clutch plate was worn to the rivets @ 55K.

Well then.... maybe mine is on the 2nd one lol I was under the impression these were typically 70-90k type clutches (which, actually, would work for your mileage vs mine dependent on driving type).

Ryan, You are doing it right. When I did my RMS 7yrs ago @ ~35k there was life left in the clutch disk, 30-40%? I just put a clutch pack in because it was apart and I wasn't planning to go back in. Then Flat-Six came up a way to change to the ceramic IMS. So back in @~50k and this time I had picked up a new flywheel, l so I put the flywheel and another clutch pack in. Clutch disk was fine but with a new flywheel face I wasn't going to use the old clutch disk, with a new flywheel/disk why use the old pressure plate? it is a slippery road.

I was thinking of upgrading to a better IMS, but after talking to the shop they recommended just changing it out every 60-80k, which would put me in line with another clutch. My car is going to be driven regularly, and I tend to change my oil every 3-4k regardless of what the manufacturer says. Any tips for clutch break in on these guys? I remember on my 328is I was told not to exceed 3500 RPM for the first 500 miles or so.

Never mind I just went back and reread the thread. Staying with the original IMSB? I wouldn't, at least put the ceramic bearing in while it's apart..

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I'm call them tomorrow, I'm not sure which bearing is going in, or whether or not they've already installed one, but I'm fairly certain its just an oem replacement :/ Originally I thought they were doing the LN bearing, but that was quite a bit more.

My 99 had a clutch done at 90k. Fwiw. Did IMSB at the same time. Previous owner.

No "viscous fluid" in the DMFW... They're making quite a markup on those part prices. Luk is a OEM for Porsche. Good luk...

Is there any fluid whatsoever in the dmfw? I purchased the flywheel and clutch off Amazon, not from the shop, and it's not increasing my labor bill so they're not gaining anything from this. When I went to look at it there was definitely a small amount of fluid in/around the center hole. There was also what appeared to be some very minor heat scoring, but I could be mistaken, I've never had to replace a flywheel on any of my vehicles before.

what is the shop charging for labor? did you buy the IMS & RMS from the shop?

I'll have to take a look at the bill when I pick it up (hopefully today before work). The RMS, AOS, and IMS total, with labor included, was $1500 but he told me it would actually be a little cheaper than quoted. After they pulled everything apart I was informed of my clutch/flywheel issue. I'm wondering if there's any way fluid got on the flywheel from a something leaking within my drivetrain?

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a few last questions... Did you recently purchase the car? Was the AOS, IMS, RMS planned in your purchase price? What are the details about the car? Year, model (c2, c4, c4s) How many miles were on the car?

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Happy to answer! I purchased the car about 2 weeks ago and had planned on doing the AOS/IMS/RMS before spring. I had budgeted $2k for the work based on what I'd read online, and was pleasantly surprised by their quote of $1500. My car is a 2000 911 C2, 6 speed, just rolled over 125k on the original motor/trans.

Just my $0.02 but if a shop told me there was fluid leaking out of my flywheel, AND that recommend to put in an OEM IMSB (which is not even offered by Porsche as a replacement item) over an LN, I would suspect they were either incompetent or trying to snow me, and regardless, have the car towed to another shop.

Ryan; I have the same car as you have: '00 C2 Coupe. The PO changed the clutch pack and flywheel at 133K Kms or 83K miles right after he bought the car from his previous owner. The probabilities are on your side that your IMS is a dual row. Can you confirm when you have it replaced, if you don't mind. It would be appreciated. Good luck!

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I still haven't found a definitive answer as to whether or not there is any type of fluid within the OEM flywheel. The option was given to me whether or not I wanted to upgrade to an LN bearing, at an extra $1000. I spoke with them regarding going with an OEM alternative (not sure if it's OEM or possibly an OEM replacement), and said they've been changing them for other customers at 60-80k mile intervals. I figured in 50-80k miles I'll be due for another clutch, assuming the car even makes it that far, and I'll replace it then when everything is already taken apart. Kelly Moss is a pretty reputable shop, and they rebuild race cars and race all over the USA. I'd hope they know what they're talking about I'll be sure to ask which bearing mine had!

Hi Ryan, Just FYI, Porsche does not sell the IMSB and there are 3 retrofit ball bearings I'm aware of: 1) Pelican bearing ~$170 http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/...pg3.htm#item11 2) LN bearing ~$720 http://www.uspmotorsports.com/Porsch...g-Upgrade.html 3) FVD bearing ~$500 http://www.fvd.de/us/en/Porsche-0/-/...al_Row%60.html Also a good read here regarding IMSB alternatives http://www.thepopularmechanic.com/Po...MSOptions.html

Lots of shops are capable - but not necessarily expert in every car. My Corvette guy is a genius, but I suspect he doesn't know crap about IMS bearings... The flywheel is spring-loaded. It doesn't use hydraulic fluid.

That's a good point 5chn3ll, I wonder where the fluid is coming from.. perhaps it's just fluid from elsewhere within my trans.

It does have a decent amount of surface area inside, so if you were leaking fluid from somewhere else, it's not crazy to imagine that enough fluid would be oozing out to make it look like it has fluid of its own to bleed out. The $20 question, as you pointed out: What's the fluid, and where's it from?

Ryan, I believe you were the one that drove your car through a snow storm after purchasing it? Hats off to you! I'm curious what your build date is on your car and if you have a dual row bearing. Mines a 7/00 build w/74,000 miles but haven't replaced my IMS. Also curious what bearing they'll use for a replacement. Thanks!

Better news, turns out I AM getting the LN retrofit for the dual bearing IMS: Also, he'd asked if I wanted the sway bar links done, I declined and said I would take care of them when I installed my lowering springs. Turns out the tech installed them so I'm getting them for free. They did want $400-500 for the gundo hack so I declined. I'll remove the mufflers and drop them off at a local place that can probably do the work for $150-200.

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They're poking around, I just got done emailing back and forth with the shop manager and they didn't find anything out of the ordinary.. That was me I'll look for build date when I get it back, it was a dual bearing car.

[QUOTE=Ryan...;12116787 They did want $400-500 for the gundo hack so I declined. I'll remove the mufflers and drop them off at a local place that can probably do the work for $150-200.[/QUOTE] A muffler shop shouldn't charge more then $80-$100 for the hack if you take your mufflers to them. Just an FYI, I took mine to a very well known shop that builds their own custom mufflers and paid $40 for each side.

Yeah I'm definitely hoping it's cheaper than $150, but even that I'd be willing to pay for the sound

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How does the light weight flywheel affect driving in stop and go traffic I'm interested because I am contemplating installing one in my 2000 C4 What are the pros and cons of a light weight flywheel???

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It reduces rotational mass. This means the engine will rev quicker and will also decelerate quicker. In terms of measurable performance, some people believe that you will make the car quicker in the lower gears. The downside is that with less rotational mass to help with initial clutch engagement stop and go places more strain on the clutch.

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Thank you for that explanation . I think I see where this is going

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Unrelated to the tendency to stall because of the reduction in rotating mass, the loss of damping the dual-mass flywheel provides is suspected of causing broken crankshafts in several M96 motors. This alone is sufficient to keep me installing the DMFW until I hear that this was a red herring...

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Ryan, As a point of reference. I bought my FisterD mufflers from Darin fister himself. Cost was $350 for the new mufflers with my core return. My shop then charged $100 in labor to install. Shipping was included and fast both ways.

Ok that's good to know, I'll remove them myself when I get it back and drop it off at the shop down the street. I've heard from a couple car guys they do great work with very quick turn around.

Got the car out for a drive finally after the new clutch/flywheel/ims/etc.. I was merging onto the highway, 3rd gear, and as it wound up between 5000-5500 it began slipping drastically.. Is that normal until it's "broken in" or did I get a bad clutch/install? Clutch has less than 80 miles on it.

Not normal. A clutch should not need breaking in.

Dammit. Dammit. Dammit. And of course since I provided the parts they're likely going to say i'm SOL.

Maybe just drive it more and see if it persists first. What were the exact parts you provide? OE or aftermarket?

Sachs Clutch kit and a Luk Flywheel. At first I thought I'd hit the rev limiter until I looked down and saw my speed/RPM. It's been years since I had a vehicle with a slipping clutch, and never anything that drastic. No clutch smell either that I could notice.

I've never installed a clutch, is there anything involved in the install that could be done improperly, or is it a "only fits one way" kind of deal?

I highly doubt anything wrong with your parts. I suggest you bring it back to them for them to address it. I've heard there are some updated clutch parts for MkI, if yours is a MkI. I've read some threads that people installed the wrong parts on the release fork or installed the fork backwards but can't remember if that will lead to slipping or just impossible to get into gears. BTW, at least check if you have any fluid leak under the car (close to where the flywheel is) and check the brake fluid level. There are two chambers inside if you look closely. Check the one closer to the rear of the car to see if the level looks good.

I'm hearing from others that I should at least put some more miles on it to allow things to break in a bit, keeping it below 3500 RPM and let the clutch/flywheel get bedded in. No fluid leaks or funny smells under the car.

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Yes, that's a good idea.

That's sucks! I've never heard of a clutch slipping after replacement, I hope you get this sorted out soon. BTW - don't forget to check your build date, I'm curious because you have a dual row IMS.

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Sure that it was clutch slipping? When mine slipped it smelled pretty strong.

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Fairly certain, as soon as I felt the car stop accelerating I noticed my RPM was higher than expected yet I wasn't moving faster.. It's possible there was a smell and I just missed it, but I recall clutches being quite smelly when burning..

The clutch lever was updated in 2000 and there's a TSB for that http://members.rennlist.com/jandreas...ing%20Area.pdf Not sure if it's applicable to your car but the clutch lever and some parts have been updated/changed. Does this indy specialize in Porsche?

Call the owner / manager, tell them the clutch is slipping, and ask them to make the determination if you should bring it in or not. By driving it with a known fault, you are opening a door they can exploit to get off the hook.

I sent an email to the sales manager this morning, I'm dropping it off today to have them look at it. Ahsai, they specialize in Porsche and also have an Italian section of the building.

My dumbass installed the updated fork wrong and the slave cylinder would explode as soon as you stepped on the clutch. I babied it a bit for a few hundred miles but it's been strong with no slips. I used the LUK flywheel and Sachs clutch and pressure plate. They all look identical to the Porsche stuff. Great fitment.

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Well it's good to know someone else is using the same combo as me, with good results! Is there anyway to install a clutch "incorrectly" which would cause it to slip? I've never done a clutch so I'm not sure what's all done to install the components..

Yeah, you could have oil leaking on the flywheel, or even just grease from not putting on clean gloves. Maybe the throw out bearing and clutch fork weren't installed in the right order?

Ok that's good to know, I'm hoping they'll pull it apart and look at everything if the problem arises on the test drive, which it should.

So it looks like mine is scheduled to complete production on July 3. So it should be here early August, maybe even the end of July. My Panamera was 22 days from completion to my garage. Excitement!!! It's feeling more real now seeing all these V200's from everyone.

I think you may be in the wrong section, but congrats on your new GT4! Dropped the car off at Kelly Moss again today so they can look at the clutch, should hear back from them tomorrow..

what ever came of the second drop off?

3 techs drove it, nobody could replicate the issue apparently. I got it back, drove an easy 30 miles, then had another issue at 6.5k RPM. I say issue, because that time I couldn't tell if it was actually slipping or cutting out on me. We just got another 2-3" of snow yesterday, so once it clears up I'm bringing it back to have a tech drive with me, I'm sure I'll be able to get it to happen again...

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Bummer, I hope you get it figured out. Can you check your manufacture date? I didn't see it posted in an earlier post after I asked. Thanks!

Shoot, I keep forgetting! Where is that located, driver's side door I'm guessing?

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This. I had the same stuff done a few months back and I felt some slippage on the first drive. Feels awesome now. IMSB, AOS, clutch done with LN standard bearing for $2800. My mech believes the IMSB is a wear item and should be replaced every 60-80k mi. My clutch made it 80k mi. It was in good shape (worn) when he pulled it. TC

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Well that's good to hear! I haven't brought it up anywhere near redline the last 90 miles, only stop and go traffic because of the new snow we just got..

Partial good news! Turns out my clutch is fine! However, my crankshaft sensor is FUBAR. Car was throwing code P1579 Reference Sensor, but the check engine light never came on. On my test drive with the technician my tach was going a little wonky whenever it would reach 6k, which made it look to me like my clutch was perhaps slipping. When he drove it I could definitely feel the difference and thought it felt like he hit redline. $350 for parts/install, not too bad.