Another engine bites the dust - intermix

I have a '99 Cab that my wife drives mostly. We bought it a couple years ago with ~60k miles, today it has ~90k Earlier this week went out to start the car after it had sat for a few weeks. Blinking coolant light, sweet smelling haze from the exhaust, and milkshake on the dipstick. I'm going to almost certainly go with the crate motor route. ~$12k from the place in Oregon. I have a mechanic that will swap things over for ~$1,500 and that includes cleaning out the cooling system. I'll probably replace a bunch of hoses, do the clutch while the engine's out, coolant bottle...figure at least another $1k in associated parts. Will probably be around $15k when all is said and done. A bit of a bummer, but I've always preferred to pay for maintenance than depreciation. We paid $23k for the car. At the conclusion of this episode, I'll have nearly $40k into it, but it will be nearly mechanically perfect and likely to stay that way for several years. I will have still faced less cost than the original owner did via depreciation from $80k down to $23k. I'm not sure how anyone could continue to deny that there is a problem with these engines when so many fail in exactly the same way. Or rather, when so many of them fail in one of a few, common ways. Still, having this done will be less than it cost to have my 928's engine rebuilt, and a new 928 motor from Porsche is something like $35k. The dealers in San Diego want somewhere in the vicinity of $25k to do the job, which makes it very uneconomical. I will have my mechanic pull the motor and do just a bit of a teardown to make sure it's not something less serious, but I think the odds are slim.

Porsche is currently having a sale on remanufactured motors. Unfortunately they don't have any 3.4's listed, but they do have 3.6's for $8,200 without a core exchange. You would need a "black box" to activate the vario cams, but it's been done many times before. Available thru dealers or indy's....

Has anyone documented or provided a writeup for the conversion? I gather that it's fairly straightforward--reprogramming the DME and a few other bits. It would be nice to know in advance exactly what needs to change. It's a nice thought. Any idea if they take a 3.4 core for a 3.6 motor?

As John said: no core necessary. Who do you have do the work here in SD?

I haven't had work done in SD for a while. I had a bad experience with Black Forest which I won't belabor here. Greg Brown of Precision Motorwerks in Anaheim rebuilt my 928's motor, and he does a lot of stroker motors for the 928 community. One of his mechanics, Ole, bought a welding shop (welding works) not far away from Greg's shop and 928 International. When I converted my 928 from an auto to 5-speed, Ole did the work. I like him a lot and the labor is very reasonable. I don't think he's really busy, so it's always easy to get in.

is there a link where i can find out more info about this engine sale?

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Call any Porsche dealer. They also listed 3.8 X51's for the same price.... I'd recommend Sunrise in Oregon....

If it is a cracked head that caused the intermix you can fix it for a couple of thousand dollars. I know because I fixed mine. Was out driving it today and it is running great. A new engine would be great, but don't assume that is your only alternative.

At least one other RLSTR did: Paul 996 Addict Rennlist Member Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 1,428 Replaced 3.4 engine with a 3.6 engine

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I think you meant Sunset Porsche in Oregon. Also, let's not forget that he has a 99. E-gas for a 3.6 and a traditional cable for the 3.4 correct?

I have a 3.6L E-Gas motor for sale. It was removed from my ex-Koni Challenge car. PM if interested.

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Yea Suncoast in Florida and Sunrise in Oregon...... You can run your cable TB on the 3.6, you just need that black box to activate the vario-cams...

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So you've determined the cause and diagnosed the problem without even pulling the motor? Let us know what you find when you open it up.

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Wow, only $8200.... that's a great price. I definitely follow the OP's logic on value, investment, and depreciation. Still hope maybe it's only a head, GL....

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Email sent to you.

Called Sunset Porsche in Oregon. The discounted motors are gone. I can get a 3.8 X51 for around the same price, but have to eat the core charge because they won't accept a 3.4 for a 3.8. FWIW, they said the sale motors were gone on the first day...

Try Suncoast. When I was struggling with my engine I talked with both Sunset (where I buy almost all my parts) and Suncoast. Sunset had to have an apples to apples core (i.e. 3.4 to 3.4 or 3.6 to 3.6) but Suncoast said they could do a 3.4 to 3.6 with only the difference in core charge, which is only a couple of hundred dollars, being charged. Now two other things. First. a 3.4 to3.6 swap is not a simple thing. It is more than just a black box to do the VarioCamPlus. There are differences in the fuel supply, CanBus vs. wire, guages, etc. etc. Talk to some of the owners who have tried this swap. Soem have had success, and others nothing but headaches. There is a place in Georgia (other than Roock) that claims to do them, but charges about $7,500 plus the cost of the engine. Second, why have you already decided to reploace the engine without knowing exactly what caused the intermix. I am telling you that if it is a cracked head, and it was not driven too much with the intemixed fluids, you can fix it for a few thousand dollars. I did mine myself, other than the actual fix of the cracked head, which was done by a shop in Costa Mesa. Or a new head is about $2,800.

There's a bunch of coolant coming out as steam from the exhaust. I believe that means cracked cylinder or the cylinder slipped. I will have the shop pull the motor. Actually, one shop said they drop the oil pan and pressurize the cooling system. Depending on where the coolant comes out, they can tell whether it's the head or the cylinder. Suncoast is in Florida, right? I'll call them tomorrow.

Will double everything Dharn55 says, as he is helping me generously trying to help me through the repair of my cylinder head crack - in the same place I might add. Unfortunately for me I have cracks in both the 1-3 and the 4-6 side. Keeping the Machine shop in business. Have learned a helluva alot taking the engine out in my garage and going through the process. Not as daunting as one might believe at first!

How did you rule out a headgasket?

These engines don't blow head gaskets.. I haven't ever seen that occur yet. The heads will crack before the head gaskets blow!

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Yes- Porsche are to be lauded for their excellent gaskets. Heads, RMS, IMS etc. not so much.

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This is correct. I have first hand experience with a 2003 3.6 X51 engine transplanted into my '99C4. There are MANY costly things that have to be changed, if you use the "traditional" swap method. Not only will you need a new computer, rear car harness, engine harness and a 3.6 type high pressure AC line, but if you have a C4, it gets worse. You will need a 2002-2004 instrument panel, if you want the cruise control to work. You will need the 3.6 type of ABS and PSM modules, if you want these features to work. This adds thousands of dollars to the cost of the swap. Now, there are some shops who will do the swap by reprogramming the 3.4 computer and adding a black box to handle the variocam plus function. In my opinion, this is a far better way to go IF the shop can do this properly. There is a thread by Paul996 about this alternate method of doing the swap. If I had it to do over again, I would have had a replacement 3.4 engine installed. Frankly, there is not much difference in performance with the 3.6 engine, even the X51 version. ....Rickker

I know of a used '99 996 motor in Denver. If you could get the car here, it could be installed for a total of about $6,000-6,500. (search on my user name for details if interested). Joe

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Say what? That's just silly.... A stock 3.4 motor with open exhaust and a lightweight flywheel dyno's right at 250-255 rwhp. Most X51's dyno anywhere from 300-315 rwhp, a minimum increase of 25%. Even the stock 3.6 is noticably more poweful especially when the variocam+ kicks in....

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I was afraid this would happen. Let's just say that you don't notice any difference in ordinary street driving. The X51 actually has less low end torque than a regular 3.6. The extra power with the X51 starts at about 5000 rpm. I agree there is a significant difference on the track, where you are generally always between 4500 and 7000 rpm. However when driving around town, you might come out of a corner in 2nd gear and about 2500 rpm. You put your foot down and shift into 3rd at 4000 or so. This is where I say there is very little difference between a 3.4 or a 3.6 or a X51 3.6. What you feel in regular, part throttle street driving. The track is a totally different ball game. OK, that's all I wanted to say. Didn't mean for this thread to go off topic. ...Rickker

Every shop I have talked to has suggested that the engine is toast once I described all the symptoms. While this may ultimately prove to not be the case, it's my current working assumption. Even with intermix Porsche suggests rod bearings. Parts/labor eclipse replacement. While it might be safe to fix or replace a cracked head (if that is the problem), clean everything up and go, I'm inclined to go with a more thorough fix. I am leaning towards getting a used 3.6 out of a crashed-in-front 2005 with ~30k miles. There is a local guy in SD who comes highly recommended and has done similar transplants before. It will involve reflashing the DME and dealing with VC+, which IMO is the only way to go. If the car needs further tuning, I can head up to BBI in Huntington Beach. Compared to what I've been through with the 928, this should be a cakewalk. I would really like to find a 3.6 X51 or 3.8 X51, but I'm not dead set on it. The car will never see the track. But it would be nice to have a bit more grunt. Interesting to hear that the X51 might have more top end at the expense of low end torque, but maybe not all that surprising. Sounds like in any event the 3.6 is an improvement over the 3.4. I do not want another early model used engine going in. Now it's just a question of used vs new, and I'm leaning towards a "newer" used engine as reasonable compromise between cost vs risk of being back where I started in less than 2 years. I appreciate the additional commentary. It helps to narrow down the choices and it's nice to hear differing opinions.

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