Another one ticking......Help

So mine has just started ticking, went for a run, no tick when I left and the noise you hear in the video ever since whether hot or cold, its the same. Rises and falls with revs, does not seem to go away just gets drowned out with rest of engine noises. Its a 1998 built 996.1, 3.4 with an indicated 130K kms. So its consistent, seems to be top end and coming from bank 1 (left hand side of engine as you look at it from rear). I had everything crossed for a loose spark plug, so pulled the coil packs and plugs yesterday, but not that (on bank one). I have called a couple of shops for quotes on diagnosis but they wanted $300-$600 to just check it out. Seems steep to me, I might call a few more. Can anyone recommend a good shop near Toronto? So here are my questions: Any recommendations regarding a boroscope/inspection camera? For this money I can buy one and scope bores myself. Coilpack/spark plug removal was pretty easy once I had dropped the engine a little. Thoughts on possible solution, how difficult are lifters to change out? Is this even feasible with engine in car (I doubt but want to be optimistic). The car had fresh oil in when I bought it, so may change this out. I don't seem to be getting any significant back pressure in the dip stick tube (which I saw on one thread might indicate scored bores) and usual culprit seems to be bank 2 (rhs as I look at rear?), so I'm hoping its not that. Regarding oil pressures, drops to 1 bar when warm. Porsche 996.1 ticking engine. - YouTube Sorry for the offensive sandal and pasty leg content.

First thing I'd recommend is you remove the oil filter housing and look at the oil and element. Be sure you have a *clean* drain pan to dump the filter and its oil into. You don't want to diagnose the Porsche engine with sparklies from the lawnmower oil. Depending upon what you see/don't see that determines what you do next. If you see sparklies, ferrous bits, that's bad news. If the oil is clean, free of any debris, then the engine might have a collapsed lifter. You'll have to use a mechanic's stethoscope to try to pinpoint where the noise is coming from. If it is from under the camshaft cover then it might be appropriate to remove the cover and the cams and replace at least all of the lifters that correspond to your best determination that the noise is coming from an intake or exhaust lifter.

Splendid technical advice. I had the same problem so am painfully familiar... Here is a different aspect to the advice - if you get this diagnosis and repair wrong it may require a replacement engine. That is a $5000++++ job. So get serious about dissecting the filter,inspecting the pan if necessary,replacing the oil and filter, UOA,buy and use an electronic engine ear. These engines do not reward cheapskate repairs ! Search for lifter replacement. It requires a standard of mechanics and dexterity way beyond most engines. Many older Boxsters are just sold when they have these faults for the reasons cited above. Then someone who was looking at Miatas(me) gets sucked in because the ticking Boxster is so cheap. Hopefully not your scenario.

Macster and Schnell, thanks for the advice. Just ordered the parts from Pelican, so the wait is on. Will dissect the filter once it all arrives, it can stay tucked up in the garage in the meantime. I did review the lifter replacement and it looks "Diy able" (with the right tools) except for the access. If only an engine replacement was just $5k, It wouldn't be so painful a proposition, the whole "I'll just fix this while I'm in there" syndrome adds so much to the whole process.

do the UOA, and they will tell you about metals in the oil. More than you can see with the eye. Buy any of the borescopes on ebay, but get one that articulates well. Do your inspection of the cyl walls and hope for good news. More often than not, a $500 diagnoses will come back with; "you need a new engine. We will rebuild it for $xx,xxx."

MonteC -The next piece of research(in view of your location) is the connection between cold temperatures and cylinder bore scoring....

Yeah, but it was so quiet until just now, if it is bore scoring then I think it will be run it till it dies!! My only hope is its seems to be bank 1 which seems to be less likely to have bore score!................ Oh well lets see what the filter reveals......

Make sure the lifter carrier is not cracked = that produces the same noise but has catastrophic consequences when a chunk breaks off. The smart guys do not replace a single lifter .If one is bad,......

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Haha I researched and found this UK article "Baz from Hartech piston heads article" and it seems I'm a prime candidate for failure as I do like to XLR8..... If I have to pull the cams, I'll replace the lot at $20 each. Just hoping its nothing more catastrophic.

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Be careful. Bore scoring is the new iMSB and any ticking noise or other anomaly gets bore scoring as the explanation. But saying it is so doesn't make it so. You can't really diagnose bore scoring by the sound of an engine. And there are other more common problems that can account for the noise. Best advice is to as best you can -- with the help of a trusted/experienced Porsche tech -- is pinpoint the noise. From under the camshaft cover probably lifter (or cam, as in flattened lobe) related. If the noise is down more in the head/block maybe (maybe) bore scoring (or something else). At either end of the engine that's chain tensioner territory. If you and the tech believe and agree it is lifter noise and replacing one, some or all is the way to go you can do this with the engine in the car. Be sure you have the proper steps to this work. That you know how to take things apart but just as important know how to put the cams back into place without affecting their timing. Sealing the cover is tricky. A small bead of special sealant is used. It is critical to apply the right size bead. Too much is as bad as too little. When the cam cover is tighted down this spreads out and seals the cover. Not only does it seal the oil in the cover but it seals around the high pressure holes that transport oil form the head to the cam bearings in the cover. If you use too much the extra sealant can squeeze into the hole area and the sealant can tear loose and prevent oil from flowing through the hole to its final destination, a camshaft plain bearing. Too little and there can be an external or internal oil leak. An external leak is obvious. An internal leak is not. But part of the cam/lifter hardware can run with sub-par lubrication and that ain't good.

-Check for exhaust leaks -Check for loose spark plugs -Listen closely to the engine with an electronic ear Whatever you do, don't assume the issue is lifters, and replace them. You must quantify exactly where the noise is rooted before throwing a variable at things. If you have a ticking noise, then you must find the source of this conclusively. That takes more than a bore scope and a scan tool.

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Thanks Gents for the input, I'm planning to go through a logical assessment process to try and pinpoint this as best I can. Regarding a trusted tech, I don't have one as such, so was hoping someone near Toronto might provide some recommendations. I sincerely hope its not bore scoring, or anything else terminal. Jake, I've pulled the plugs from bank one and not those, one was not overly tight and I had everything crossed for that, but no joy I did check tightness of all the exhaust header hardware and that seemed good on both sides. I'll look at bank 2 plugs when I get parts from Pelican so I can pull filter, I might as well scope the bores and make a day of it. It seems to be coming from the head on bank one using a screwdriver as a crude listening device. Just hoping its something relatively fixable...........

The noise ALWAYS comes from a cylinder head... Thats where the noise emanates from, but is seldom where it is rooted. Thats why this fools Porsche shops all the time.

For a list of indys in the TO area head on over to the Canada section of the forum, where you'll get many great recomendations such as EU Autowerks Hunter, Mantis, Keltech.....

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Thanks, I'll give that a try.

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Yesssss but - a borescope is a great tool for one of the specific failure modes. Combined with the condition of the spark plugs, and a leakdown test, this can be very useful in cylinder condition inspection. Continental engines even spec a borescope exam for low compression jugs, however in this case the common failure point is the exhaust valve burning, or deposits on the stem which won't let the valve close completely. We all dread the bore scoring so might be good to eliminate/confirm that early. A decent USB endoscope on ebay is $30.

I had a similar tick that I thought was a lifter, turned out being the water pump. The impeller was hitting on the block and then finally bit the dust with a bit racket.

Thanks guys keep it coming. Pelican package on the way, will buy an mechanic's stethoscope over the next few days and start trying to eliminate issues. One thing I forgot to mention was a few weeks back I got a CEL, I thought they all related to the MAF, and I pulled it, cleaned it and reset. But one was a pending P1531 bank 1 camshaft position sensor, so I'm wondering if its chain tensioners or something related. Will post pictures of filter etc once I get it pulled out. Hmm plot thickens.

While using the stethoscope use a scan tool to deactivate injectors one by one. See what happens to the noise, then report back. That's a silver bullet..

Del

So I have pulled plugs/coils (getting good at this now) and bought a boroscope/inspection camera I will look tomorrow with the mirror attachment, as I see nothing much with just the camera, plugs do not seem to be fouled though, they are a little sooty on the outer rim, but lovely golden brown on the centres, no signs of oil contamination?

I don't see much of the bore... Just the piston

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Yeah Jake, I realised I should have used the inspection mirror, so deleted the video, I will try again tomorrow and see if that works better. Will upload something hopefully more meaningful. Thanks for taking the time to review.

Well the inspection camera was about as much use as a fart in an elevator..... The 45 degree mirror attachment did nothing, so that's going back to Canadian Tire. I rebuilt and checked with the good old stethoscope and it seems to be in the head on cylinder 1, you can hear it on the headers, head itself and quietens as you move towards centre of the engine and front of the car. Still waiting to get filter and tools to remove from Pelican, but still seems like lifters to me. Any thoughts Team Rennlist?

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I don't believe it.. The noise emanates across the engine very well. At times when the cylinder wears enough it can create an occurrence where the piston can rock enough at TDC changeover that the piston contacts the cylinder head. In this instance the noise will come mostly from the cylinder head. The chances of this being a lifter are very slim. Not impossible, but I haven't seen a bad lifter in many years. I have seen dozens of misdiagnosed lifters, and lots of wasted money, and time. cylinder deactivation as I stated earlier is the best way to diagnose this.

"when the cylinder wears enough it can create an occurrence where the piston can rock enough at TDC changeover that the piston contacts the cylinder head. In this instance the noise will come mostly from the cylinder head." So when the OP dismantles the engine and measures the suspect cylinder bore, he should expect to discover significant ovality and taper ? If so it makes the time I spent doing all those tedious bore measurements worthwhile. For each bore I measured in 3 locations and at 3 levels at least twice and plotted the results. Any bore where I failed to match the first & second measurements ,I re-did until I got the same measurements. You have to pre=mark every bore in exactly the same location so all measurements are from the same positions.And it all needs to be done at the same temperature but it takes a few hours to do it conscientiously. Why? because of the precision required - this is not a task you can do with instruments accurate to +/-1 thou. Even with the correct precision instrument, I doubt many of us have the machinist skills to make such measurements to the required standard. I had no idea what I was getting in to this level of skill !It was a humbling experience.

I think I will take it to an Indie shop, the guys on the Canadian forum made some recommendations and one is really close to home. Waiting for them to contact me. Oh well its only money!!!

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Possibly.. The scoring and ovality has to be pretty bad to create this. Likely its mid- bore wear and the typical ticking that this presents time after time. That's what diagnosis is for, and at times it can take a lot of effort to find the root of a problem.

My ticker definitely had several bad lifters (60K miles), saw them with my own eyes. There was no tailpipe sooting, no increase in oil consumption, and a borescope revealed no bore scoring. Only because a lifter job would cost roughly a third of an entire RND engine swap, I made the judgment call to do the swap instead. When the engine came apart, significant scoring was found on the piston skirts. Given the extent, I feel it would likely have progressed to bore scoring over the next 20K miles or so. I do not know if the ticking had been from the pistons or lifters or both. If no damage had been found on the piston skirts, I would no doubt be kicking myself for spending the extra money. As it turned out I'm glad I didn't pay to put new lifters in a sick engine. But I have experienced first-hand that bad lifters and scoring issues can exist simultaneously.

Ben, Did you dismantle the engine completely to identify other possible ticking culprits? I ask because in my "Ticking" case I had bad lifters but the real problem was a main bearing.That eventually became a knocking case ! If I had dismantled the engine at the ticking stage and found bad lifters , I bet I would have just replaced them and re-installed the engine - kaboooom! My LN filter saved the engine.Unfortunately the new filter assy. (and a badly installed LN IMSB ) had been fitted just before I bought the car. It only lasted a few hundred miles ! Yup - I doubt the engine was correctly pre-qualified. So among other things, the old debris may have jammed some lifters but eventually it damaged the main bearing.

It can, and usually from collateral damage from the bad cylinders. Why? It's simple... When the cylinders and Pistons wear, microscopic debris is suspended in the oil from the wear metals of those components.. That oil is then fed into the lifters, and there's no way for the oil to make its way out of the lifter unless it bleeds by the hydraulic tip... Debris laden oil won't do that, the debris stays inside the lifter, and effectively seizes the hydraulic assembly. This gives the lifter lash, and lash = noise. No, the oil filter won't stop this; because, it sucks.

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Well, one can't rule out bore scoring, but like I said it is becoming the new IMSB for explaining any engine noises. The engine is not misfiring. If the lifter is the problem it is very likely there is just some extra clearance at the bucket/lobe interface and this you hear as a tick. The engine won't misfire and except for the noise probably run ok. Absence of misfires does not let bore scoring off the hook either. One possible thing you can do is do a leak down test. What you want to do is at least test each of the cylinders on the side with the noise. Test each cylinder's leak down at TDC but also after rotating the engine ever so carefully to move the piston down the cylinder. What you are looking for is one cylinder which manifests bigger leak down numbers than the other 2 cylinders when tested in the same way. If there is bore scoring at some point the cylinder's leak down numbers should deteriorate as the piston is moved down the bore. I forget if you collected an oil sample for analysis. If there is bore scoring the alum. PPM count can be high, with an elevated iron PPM as well. (The pistons are coated with iron along their skirts.)

Lifters will create misfires.. These are often not recorded, or lead to a CEL, but with live data for individual cylinder misfires, it can often be seen, and even logged. I use exhaust system pressure transducers to log and plot the pulses with the Bosch MTS5200 lab scope. With the crank position in one axis, and the exhaust transducers plotted against these, as well as a sensor placed on each coil pack to register TDC for a given cylinder I can often pinpoint this without pulling anything apart.

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Not yet, I'm waiting for tools from Pelican to get filter off. (Needed some other parts anyhow) and it takes a while to get past the pre trump border polar bears. I'm hoping Jake is wrong! I'm going to loosen off the accessory belt this afternoon and just check water pump as someone mentioned this too can sound the same!

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I hope that I'm wrong too.. A leak down test won't show much, and often the BAD CYLINDER tests BETTER than the others. This is the case with both compression and leak down tests. Why? Oil is what promotes cylinder/ ring sealing most. This issue almost always leads to some chamber contamination with engine oil. This helps to seal those rings up better.. You can learn more by looking at the exhaust bolts, or removing the header pipes and looking for oil. If you see this, then you have cylinders that have lost ring seal, and in some way have been compromised.

I'm not seeing oil anywhere, not on the plugs, not on the headers, no obvious pressure in the dip stick (is this any indication?) Although I have not removed the headers. I have everything crossed for something not terminal.

Fascinating thread. An object lesson in being humble about what I think I know. There isn't much of what I think I know about engines that doesn't have a contradiction with the M96 !

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I did get a series of codes not long ago and a CEL (P0300, 0306, 0303, P1012 and P1531), it seemed to point to the MAF, which I pulled and cleaned and reset. All of them made sense (in relation to the MAF) except P1531. It has no pending codes or CEL right now (but has not run much since).

1531= Variocam acyuator Bnk 1 ? http://www.renntech.org/forums/topic.../?_fromLogin=1

Yeah, fingers crossed. If thats at the back of the engine by number 1 then maybe its the culprit!

Good info here. Thanks for sharing guys. OP, I'm hoping you find an easy and inexpensive solution. Mike

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Thanks... .....me too. Ahhh well lets go pull the accessory belt and see if the water pump sounds like its full of nails!

Well seems slightly quieter without the accessory belt, but still a tap, odd, but it is still there. Still seems to be coming from number 1 with stethoscope. You can really hear it in the header, as you move along header towards front of car gets less pronounced.

Any free play/'gritty' feeling on the w/p bearing or the idler pulley bearings?

Not a thing, all smooth as silk.

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Worked it out, just the revs picking up due to lack of airbox/load on engine, seems fractionally quieter. Video of belt v's no belt both without airbox shows its the same.

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Thank you! That makes sense.

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Oil can indeed improve cylinder/ring sealing in a compression or leak down test. The old trick of adding oil to the weakest cylinders to help determine if the low numbers were due to cylinder/ring sealing -- the oil improved this and the resulting numbers would go up -- or valve sealing comes to mind. IIRC the oil jets only work at some relatively high oil pressure (above several bar if I care to trust my memory) and one wonders if the starter can crank the cold engine fast enough to generate enough oil pressure to even open those oil jets. So there is the question of do the cylinders even receive any oil during this test. Even if they do all cylinders receive the oil so it is relative. In the case of this engine if bore scoring accounts for the noise the cylinder is pretty heavily scored so one could assume (sure risky) the benefit would be there but the cylinder would still come in weaker than the rest. Granted, not 100% certain. But compression and leak down tests are about all that are available to the DIY'er. But I like the technique you use: That exhaust system pressure transducers to log and plot the pulses with the Bosch MTS5200 lab scope. Unfortunately that's not available to just the average DIY'er.

Forget the oil squirters. The oil that lubricates the cylinders is waste oil from the rod bearings, delivered from the centrifugal force of the crankshaft into the cylinders. The oil squirters work a little differently in practical application, break a case apart, else up some oil passages, install some fittings, and watch what happens with the oil squirters at different pressures, with different oil temperatures, and different viscosities. Want to get really interesting info? Do the same test with new oil, and used oil with different mileage. See what the squirters do.... Try it.

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Have you tested how much airflow from the piston movement affects to the oil that is flown thru the squirters? I havent, but your post got me thinking of it, becouse that testing procedure removes airflow from equation.

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No, but it won't help anything, only hurt things.. I was was only concerned with squirter function.

Mine comes and goes. My indy said that he'd recommend switching from 0w40 to 10w50. I would assume a scored cylinder would make the noise on a constant basis.

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A heavier viscosity oil can make a lifter issue worse, if that's what the problem is. Why? At start up the oil doesn't want to travel into the valve train components. If I thought I had a bad lifter I'd add some Marvel Mystery Oil to the crankcase and see how it responded. The noise coming and going doesn't rule out a cylinder, especially if temperature plays into things.

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That's what i would have thought also. Will the noise come and go if it's a scored cylinder? The noise comes and goes in the cold and if it's warm. I may have to try the mystery oil. Should i add it with the current oil, or with the next oil change?

Care package arrived from Pelican, pulled the oil filter and uggghhhhhhhhhhhh. Lots of sparkly bits. Some sort of film is in there too, the car had both head gaskets changed along with the heater core before I bought it. Filter seems to have a lot of small metal particles. I have changed it, but this was supposedly changed along with oil at time of the head work, so not very old. And no it's unfortunately not from the lawn mower. I see trouble ahead!

How much is ferrous? What color are the particles after you wash them in gasoline ? Drop the pan also to do the same inspection.

Yeah, I'm planning on sump pan drop tomorrow. Not sure about ferrous v's non ferrous, they look like white metal in the oil, will go and clean it when I drop pan tomorrow. Some of it is plastic film (or something similar), that large bit on the RHS of the bowl is like that.

use a magnet to separate the debris. I my case I had some minor plastic,minor ferrous and mainly non ferrous. Main bearing #5 ! Caused by a P.O schlocky IMSB replacement.

Thanks, will look I'm thinking I will try and filter the oil through a cloth or similar to screen out the suspended particles. What symptoms did you get with that bearing failure?

Ticking that I mistook for lifters ! After dismantling the engine for a rebuild, I found several 'bad' lifters also. It is theoretically possible(?) that the debris that took out the bearing and the bearing debris plugged the lifters but I saw no evidence of that. I just replaced everything anyway- $$$$, Totally upside down now.

Time to start researching an LS swap.

renegadehybrids.com although they don't show prices. The videos are very enticing.

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Sadly it is not Smog-legal. And the Renegade Instructions/kit has major issues according to those who have used it. Maybe visit the RND website or line up some good-used engines?

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They are stupid expensive for what could be just as bad! I've filtered the oil through a cloth and rinsed in petrol (its just like gasoline!!) mainly white metal and seems to be a 50:50 split ferrous/non ferrous, not unlike yours. Smog legal! In Canada emission testing is all done through the OBD, no CEL and no pending codes and you get a pass. Not sure if the LS swap would work in this way. Ahh well, I'll drop the pan and see what horrors lie in wait in there. Time to start saving....................................

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There is pricing for the kits.........

Smog? Do they do smog checks in Canada? Renegade will do installs in their shop in Vegas.

I have also read threads about instructions and kit problems as per S.G. above.

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Thanks. Just an idea. Will most likely try and find another 3.4 or bite the bullet and get this one rebuilt assuming its fatally flawed. Just need to sell a child and the house and I'll have enough money!

Sorry to hear your motor may be toast, by the way.

Factory short block rebuild with ARP head bolts and you are back in business for 10k USD with the right indie. Less if you DIY.

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Interesting! Where can I review this? I am leaning, when/if necessary, to the LS3 option. Engine around $7,200 plus kits or Renegade install would put me over @$10k. Didn't realize there was a factory short block option!

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Thanks Slakker, I'm exploring options. This may well be a good option, the problem with used is the potential to buy the same problem again! Irony is my car was only $13k USD, but then thats probably one of the reasons I'm buying an engine for it!!!

996.100.951.TX $6300 OEM short block. Just have to make sure you have a competent indie to do your rebuild.

Thanks, Slakker. I'll check it out.

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Well I'm still exploring options, but thought all would like to know how much the short block is worth in Canada and the killer which is the Core charge. So list price from the Porsche Dealer I have tended to get parts from is CAD $7446.75 full list (which compares well with the $6300 US) core charge though is nearly $8500 and core has to be rebuildable, no cracked blocks. Once I know what's wrong, this may be a good option, as it should eliminate most of the known issues, assuming that the "no re-manufactured Porsche blocks have failed ever" statements I have seen elsewhere are true.

That's actually not bad at all price wise. but I don't buy their statement about their blocks for 1 second.

You have to go into this with an expectation that you will not get the full core charge deposit back... Also, remember that you must do something with your old heads, so they can be reused on this new short block. Your particular engine designation has a significant issue with failed intake valve seats, so not taking the time to address these now, would not be wise. Too many people have bought a short block, not addressed anything with the heads, and had a problem.

^^. Good info. I haven't read much about short block rebuilds. But I haven't looked very hard yet either.

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That price actually sounds pretty good compared to what I was quoted about 2 years ago when I lost the engine in my car. The dealer here quoted me about $11.5K for the short block with core exchange. The killer - they estimated about $15K to cover work to the heads, other parts needed, and labour for the exchange.

Thanks Team. Still exploring options. Good to know about head work Jake, may change those plans. Triple Black how did you resolve yours?

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Jake, what about oil appearing only on the spark plugs, only on threads near the crush ring (away from the tip)? Does that point to the same problem of lost seal rings?

check this - common problem: http://www.autoatlanta.com/results.php

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Can you give more of a hint on that one? The link for me says "Sorry, nothing was found or your query was too short."

Sorry for their evaporating link. Their parts diagrams are so useful. Here are the part numbers.If you google them ,hopefully you'll find them elsewhere-Pelican or ECS: http://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Inf...105-325-52-M36 Rubber O-ring 99970721540 and German Spark Plug Tube 99610532552 http://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Inf...7&KeepHeader=Y

Dropped pan today (finally) and was expecting carnage in there. Nothing big, no plastic, no metal, nothing. All the shops I have approached pretty much tell me its toast, rebuild or new engine (this is sight unseen). So I have found a local guy to rebuild, which is my current plan. Any thoughts? I will start it up in the morning once new gasket is dry enough to allow me to fill with oil. See if there are any changes with new oil in it.

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I had the same thing happen to me: metal in the oil, but a nice clean sump plate. Based on advice from two mechanics, I drove a few hundred more miles to see if the metal flakes went away. They didn't. My advice on having someone rebuild your 996 engine is to check on his experience and reputation. After less than a year, my $14K rebuilt engine has had problems that cost me $3K+, and I'm still having trouble. Get every reliability upgrade that you can pay for, including the latest Porsche brand valve lifters (996.105.255.25), maybe LNE cylinders, and especially the LNE IMS Solution, or at least a roller bearing (my LNE ceramic IMS ball bearing race failed, so you can guess my opinion on that). There has been recent talk of using a 997's intermediate shaft in the 996 engine. The newer shafts are supposed to have a tighter runout tolerance.

Just make sure you do some accurate budgets and get clear estimates before you start. A roller with an engine in pieces is worth even less than a roller that is unmolested. Check on EBay for used engine prices - check "Completed Listings" not asking prices. That will give you a bench mark. Just the consumable parts + labor for a refresh is expensive. Good Luck !

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Thanks Gents. My fear with a used engine is buying the same problem again. Everything I see on ebay is Texas, LA or Florida, all way too far off/complicated to go and check out. The guy I found has focused on air cooled cars, but after a long chat today seems to know right people, say the right things and is well liked locally on the air cooled forums, buying in Canada saves me freight, currency exchange and duties that could all go on "sorting out" my engine so I actually know what was done to it. Regards "budget" I have discussed what I believe to be price range, but until its opened up, there are a whole heap of unknowns. DrMems, that really sucks, $14k on rebuild with problems after that is a nightmare.

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That's really good advice re eBay I wanted to buy a 997 Porsche in 2010, didn't know a fair price, checked eBay's completed auctions prices, saw one that was perfect and a great price. Emailed the dealer and said if you find another one like this illl buy it,he replied deal fell through due to financing issues. I bought it immediately, ran great for 6 years, only had to replace starter at 80km and a sports exhaust solenoid issue a couple years earlier. Traded it in march this year

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Wow what a disaster ! My story is similar. My hope is that after so much cost and research(mainly on RL)I have finally fixed it. Sadly ,only accumulated miles on my diy rebuild will tell. Learning(?) from this sad saga, I see why some (smarter than me?) people sell as a Roller and get a car with the 9a1 engine. Not a perfect alternative but better than an M96 with unresolvable issues. It is worth noting that we are still learning about the congenital deformities of the M96 - the out-of-round IMS, misaligned machining and substitution of the 997 IMS are relatively new ideas -on an engine that is 20 years old !! In addition to the cost, this has been a very humbling experience for someone with my alleged experience ,facilities,equipment and knowledge. In the M96 world many who might claim such strengths on other cars are quickly disavowed .In M96 terms I shall always be a noob ! Hence the interest in a 9a1 :-).

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My only consolation is all the now "bullet proof" air cooled engines had issues too. We will fix them and one day in say 10 years, our cars will be so rare in "fixed original condition" that they will have actual value. 9a1 is out of my price range I think. Better bet would be used Turbo Engine? They seem to be around $25k on ebay?

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I was very torn at first, but after talking with my indie he offered a reasonable solution. I really wanted to keep the car so I bought a slightly used Porsche long block crate engine with the larger diameter IMSB from him. Engine had about 10K kilometers on it. Cost was about $17.5 with the installation. A very strong engine and am very pleased with it.

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Sorry to see your loss. Something is shedding metal inside the engine so running the engine can only create more damages. As is, there may still be parts that are salvageable such as cams, crank, oil pump, scavenge pumps, etc.

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Yeah, its staying in the garage looking sad until rebuild time now. New oil made no difference, no miracle cure for me. Just waiting on the journey of discovery that opening it up takes me on. It will be interesting to see what's actually failed.

Good luck. Keep us posted.

Just a couple of points to make. The video I listened to definitely has a lifter tick on bank 1, it's possible it could be something else as others have stated but my money is on the stuck lifter.Also no one mentioned the horrible grating sound I heard !! Sounds like a Skill saw cutting through a nail !! It's sounded like coming from the center of the engine like where the oil pump is located. Which corresponds to your observation that no metal in sump, but metal in oil filter. IF that's the case it can only come from the oil pump!! The oil pump is easy to get to after removing exhaust and engine bracket. Pull the gears out of the oil pump and have a look. If the gears are chewed up and that's what's making the Skill saw sound, I would replace the pump, put new lifters on bank 1 and see what you got. Of course there has been some metal went through your engine (that's how it got into the lifter), but you could get a lot of miles out of it for a few hundred bucks ,and can save up money for a UPGRADE top of the line rebuild in the future. What have you got to lose?

Triple Black, thanks. Porschetech3, that noise is the SAI, car was cold when I started it. Will get round to rebuilding it fortunately that one goes away once the SAI has stopped. The metal is as everyone points out bad news. I wish it was lifter, but why would a stuck lifter be shedding metal into the engine, unless its eating the cam I suppose. We will all find out in due course.

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So, this debris.... Is it ferromagnetic? I would perform a used oil analysis first, then go from there. Why? Because the exact wear metals in the oil, along with how well the additive package has held up will help determine where to look for problems. It is possible to have two failures occurring simultaneously. I've seen that quite a few times, and as recently as last month. The last thing I suspect when I hear a "lifter noise" with an M96, is a lifter. If a lifter fails it typically will lead to excess lash, which will beat the cam lobe to death fairly quickly, so the noise gets much louder, much quicker.

Jake, Based on a not very scientific test of the debris from the filter, strained through a cloth and tested with a fridge magnet (I know, I know but best I could come up with at the time), it seems to be at least 50% magnetic debris, all looks like white metal once the oil is cleaned off. I'm heading down the rebuild route I think, so we will find out in due course. For now its staying in the garage until then. I could get the oil analysed I kept the contents of the filter housing and filter itself, but not sure I need to spend any more money as teardown prior to the rebuild should reveal all?

Glad to hear the noise is just the Air Pump. I had thought of the air pump first but then dismissed it after listening to it several times and convincing myself it was something much more sinister ,even seemed to change sounds with RPM's. I have never heard one that LOUD. I still think I would look for the source of metal before removing the engine to dissemble. The oil pumps (3 of them) are a common source of aluminum and steel shavings, especially the scavenge pumps in the heads. They commonly wear and create shavings and seize up causing timing chains to break or IMS shaft to break. All 3 pumps are external and easy to remove and check. I always like to find the source of the problem as soon as possible.

$38 seems like a small investment to get some valuable diagnostics data.

Yes, the oil system is comprised of these 3 pumps. These create both the primary, and secondary oil systems. The primary system provides high pressure oil to feed the internally lubricated components and is located in the front console of the engine, at the crankcase parting line. This pump uses spur gears. The other two pumps provide low pressure, high volume scavenge oil from the cal;under heads, back to the oil sump. Due to the engine being horizontally opposed in its layout, the oil does not naturally return to the sump with gravity alone, like a V8, or a more conventional engine. These two scavenge pumps never fail, or wear unless they see secondary, collateral damage from some other component wearing/ failing. Why? Because they are constantly lubricated with a huge amount of oil, and they are loosely based on Gerotor design. The Gerotor is a great oil pump design consisting of an inner and outer rotor. The inner rotor has N teeth, and the outer rotor has N+1 teeth. The geometry of the two rotors partitions the volume between them into N different dynamically-changing volumes. During the assembly's rotation cycle, each of these volumes changes continuously, so any given volume first increases, and then decreases. An increase creates a vacuum. This vacuum creates suction, and hence, this part of the cycle is where the intake is located. The problem with this? The pumps have very tight tolerances, and are highly susceptible to damage by debris laden oil. Since these are high volume pumps they have a great intake volume, and do a great job of scavenging waste oil from the chain well area of the cylinder heads. The issue with this is a high probability of inducing debris that stems from failing components in each respectful cylinder head, especially valve train. This can be bits of broken valve spring (just the end), pieces of timing chain rollers, casting flash, valve retainers, and etc. It can also be debris from deeper within the engine that has been delivered to the cylinder heads via the main timing chains, which act as huge "conveyor belts" to shuttle debris to the cylinder heads. A good example of this is the debris from a failing IMS bearing that is picked up by the bank 1 timing chain, and then delivered to the chain well of bank 1 cylinder head, where it is picked up by the bank 1 scavenge pump. This is why the failure of a bank 1 scavenge pump is always part of the collateral damage that stems from an IMS bearing failure. When I have an engine come from another shop (typically because someone gave up on it after a mis- diagnoses) that has a new scavenge pump installed, I never question the old pump failure. I immediately question what else was failing that CAUSED that scavenge pump to fail. In every instance the fault path associated with a scavenge pump failure is determined to be from some other issue, and the scavenge pump illustrates the symptom first. This occurs due to the tight tolerances and the fact that no filter is present to protect the scavenge pump from debris. The only scavenge pump that is protected is found on the M97 engine which has a two stage scavenge pump that provides vacuum for the power brake system. The factory protected this pump with a small mesh screen, so the chances of it failing due to foreign object debris were greatly reduced. On an M97, if the bank 2 scavenge pump fails, you no longer have power brakes! Over the years I have developed methods to protect the scavenge pumps from debris for my engine program. The best policy is, and always will be limiting the wear metals that are generated, and if this is done, the pumps go forever with no wear, or damage. These pumps have exceptionally hard rotors, and can eat a valve keeper without seeing damage. The material is at least 72C and that's tougher than an other component in the engine (cams are 78C as an example). So, now that you have found debris, and some is ferromagnetic, you need to determine the fault path of the failure, which is now becoming failures (plural) since the debris generated is taking out other items within the engine already. The used oil analysis (free when buying some oils from www.rndeuroparts.com ) is a key to determining the root cause. The next step is to remove cam covers, and the sump plate, and start collecting clues. Don't automatically assume "a rebuild" because of this. If you have caught this early, and limited collateral damages, and the root cause is found somewhat externally, then the engine can easily be saved. With advancements like ur master linked main timing chains, and others, some items can be addressed easily, which previously required full engine disassembly to address.

^ Another post for "The Raby Files"^

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No doubt. Thanks to Jake I know more about the M96 and I don't even own one.....yet.

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Are these methods available as a stand-alone offering for field retrofit? I have a full flow filter, a magnetic drain plug, and have put in a chip detector, but more is better to minimize damage from the oil circuit contamination these engines are notorious for. (gah - dangled the participle)

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No, they can only be employed in a Flat 6 Innovations engine, even then they are optional.

I pulled the sump plate and found nothing in there. I could get a UOA on what came out of the filter housing and I have filter retained (with bits) too.

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To keep the ferrous metals from getting into the scavenge pumps on my personal M/96 engines ( I have 3 of them) I use a .750 round magnet placed in the near proximity of the scavenge pump inlet of the cylinder head. I have recently retired from a Porsche dealership after 40 years and this was only done on my personal engines, not on engines under factory warranty at the dealership. The dealership I worked for had a strict policy to adhere to Porsche approved repairs for liability reasons, and no aftermarket parts or procedures were used . The only way aftermarket parts or methods were used was if the customer bought their own parts and asked for the repair, we could not encourage it. The Porsche dealer I worked for was also one of the hundreds of dealers owned by Billionaire Automotive mogul Bruton Smith. With all the racing heritage and history of Bruton Smith with him owning 8 Nascar Tracks ect. you would think they would not be so corporate minded, but that's not the case. But I have a lot of racing heritage too, so on my own car I do as I please.

Thank you for taking the time and interest to share your modification. It can surely do no harm and is cheap & reversible.

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..

Has anyone had any experience with 9XX parts rebuild? This seems like a "good deal" at $7500 with 12month/12000miles warranty plus free install/shipping for a rebuilt long block? Core charge is $6k, but even so it may be worth it? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-996-...Y/191928263075

I used UFO motorsports for the rebuild - he and 9xx used to be partners. I put 30K on my rebuild and never had a problem. I did lots of research and was more than happy. I used an LN bearing for an extra charge. They use a generic bearing and claim never to have a failure but there was one guy here who had an IMS failure on a UFO rebuilt engine. Now for the process - which I have been through in depth with multiple people here. I had 0 engine problems - just had a failed IMS that put metal in the engine but I did not have nay ticking or weird noises and I just needed the engine cleaned more than anything. But most people here consider what they do is a refresh. The use most of the old parts. No new cylinders, pistons, or rods, etc. They can do the upgrades and have lots of experience but then you start to get in the price range of an RND engine. To summarize, yes, good shop and good reviews, but the $7500 is not a true rebuild. And they only pay shipping one way. So factor in $1000 for shipping and $600 for a bearing and you are up to $9000 minimum - provided everything else checks out.

Thanks for that dgjks6, good to know. I think I will stick to my plans and use a local guy to rebuild. The $1000 plus for me to ship and "repair" as I have the dreaded "tick" would likely push this to around same number.

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This is good advice. I had a 2.7 in my Boxster which with a nasty ticking. I swapped in a 3.4 from a Carrera. Sold the car and was left with the motor. Last year I bought a Boxster roller with a bad IMS and put the 2.7 in it. It's quiet as a mouse now and I have app 2K miles on it since the swap. What I thought was a ticking lifter definitely was something else as Jake suggests.

Unfortunately a filter full of metal suggests mine is something baaaaadddddddddd.

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i put a ~2 ounces of marvel mystery oil into my 68000 mile 3.4 that had a cold start up tick for a few seconds. It took care of that. I presume it was a sticky lifter as if i drove the car hard the next time i started it up it would be quiet (fully cold motor days later) but if i took it easy it would make some noise (same cold motor condition) as a note i inspect my filter for particles and have oil analysis done every time.

It all depends what caused the "Ticking". There are many potential causes of ticking, few of which can be solved by additives but well done in this case ! For example the early stages of bearing failure or loose spark plug(s). The vital part is to diagnose the fault accurately. Search "Engine Ear", not mechanics stethoscope. If a 'gummy' lifter is 'fixed' with an additive, it hints at excessive oil change intervals or filtration failures.There are 24 lifters ,so 1 gets fixed but what is happening in the other 23 ? The oilway in the tappet inside the lifter assy. is extremely small diameter. Dissolving the blockage with an additive and flushing out all the 'whatever' inside the tappet is quite a trick !It is quite tedious even on the bench with a lens. Once the tappet gets jammed in the Lifter , the Lifter is usully beyond any repair.There are upgrades to the older troublesome ones.See INA for details in Search. Those may be subjects worthy of a new thread because the long term consequences may be expensive.

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Hi there - did you ever come up with the actual cause of the ticking? I ask because I was looking at purchasing a car that had something very similar. I didn't and bought another car instead. I read through this entire thread - certainly a wealth of good information, lots of real experts here - but I am still interested if you ever found the fix and what you did spend overall on the solution/fix. I am seriously thinking about buying the LN Engineering filter adapter and filter, and always cutting my filters open to stay on top of any issues...

Murphyslaw, in answer to your question, not yet, but the journey towards bankruptcy has officially started. Engine is officially out of the car. I will update as the teardown progresses. I will also need to start thinking about buying parts once damage is assessed but will be looking at clutch, AOS, flywheel and probably IMS on top of whatever is broken (assuming its not one of those). What are the group mind's thoughts on "best" prices right now??

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Check out Ahsai's posts on cringely's thread https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...wn-engine.html BEST OF LUCK!

That may be a bit too long to read to find the answers haha For best deals on parts, check out rndeuroparts, sunsetporscheparts, warehouse33, and partsgeek (especially for flywheel)

Thanks Gents, once I have a "list" I'll shop round. I have used Jason at Warehouse 33 so will give him a try for sure. So dual mass or lightweight flywheel??

Gents, looking for input regards the Dual Mass Flywheel please. Its moving roughly 15mm and springs back , but is very "loose" for the first bit of movement, should this go in the parts heap and be replaced. If answer is yes (which I fear it is) should I go lightweight or replacement dual mass? Edit, having just looked at the doomsday scenarios on other threads I guess stick to DMF....... Thanks

LWFW gets mixed reviews. The experts condem it. I have previously linked the LUK/Schaefler Training videos to test the DMF .It is often done incorrectly. All up on You Tube. A new one is $300. Might be worth balancing it.I did.

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Thanks, yes parts geek is a good call from Ahsai, I was chasing a vibration before engine started its ticking thing, could be failing DMF I suppose. Will probably change it as $300 is not too bad. Assuming rest of engine is salvageable of course!!

Quick update and not great news, to date everything was ok, but today heads came off 4, 5 & 6 and revealed scratches on 5 & 6. Looks like Jake was right (I had my fingers crossed). My engine rebuilding guy is also finding lots of signs of "crappy" maintenance, so the rebuild may well be a blessing in disguise. Once I get pictures I will post them up.

Quick and dirty way to eliminate an unworthy candidate for a rebuild - clean the bores lightly of 5 & 6. Then measure 5 & 6 for ovality and taper. If there is either ,the compression will be poor whatever you do.Many engine re-fresh hack jobs ignore this and hope for the best. They flip the car anyway ....YEMV

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Well, I like being right, but sometimes it also sucks.. like right now. address this correctly, or you'll be right back in this same spot again.

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Thanks Jake, appreciate it. But just this once it would have been great if you were wrong I'm in too deep to not do it properly and in all honesty a "replacement" engine may be no better, so fixing "what I got" is the outcome I guess.

Curious to see the pics. So whats the rebuild plan? Bored to 3.6? I spotted at least two non-stock hose clamps, maybe by PO?

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There is a lot of that, bolts too short, couple of the bolts on the water pump were hand tight and lots and lots of RTV. Regards going to 3.6, it will need cylinder liners I guess. Not sure I need any extra capacity as its too fast already (if you know what I mean), so most likely back to "reliable" stock, but then if there is no premium I may do that too.

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It's a good opportunity to address all those during the rebuild then. You said cyl 5 and 6 were scratched so you will need new liner anyway, no? Check out LN Nickies and see if they can give you a good deal? I think you would be very pleased with the 3.6 Nickies and piston package, which comes with larger pistons and rings with minimal cost increase. You need new rings anyway even if you stay with 3.4. Having gone through 3.6 to 3.8 upgrade myself, it's a no brainer because for almost the same amount of money, you have something new and higher performance to look forward to. That makes the rebuild even more exciting.

Thanks Ahsai, all food for thought. Once its completely torn down I will need to make some decisions.

The plot thickens. As my engine builder strips down the engine I get updates (which is good) with more signs of bad maintenance (which is bad). I get to go and visit at the weekend and formulate the action plan, but right now I see liners in my future. Some odd stuff has been done to the engine though, this includes cylinders being number stamped (suggesting they have been removed) but not replaced in the same "numbered" location. More swarf around the engine from who knows what and it looks like they let a monkey loose with an RTV cannon everywhere. Still no obvious culprit for the amount of debris found in the filter, so may have been from old repairs getting dislodged during repair work carried out by the garage??? Here are some pictures so far. yellow indicates where it was removed from stamped who knows why ! Metal fillings where on earth are these from?? Scraping on piston skirt Wow, just wow!!!!

...

Interesting. Mine is a very early car could be different?

Yeah, most likely. It's entirely possible that it had some kind of failure before and was patched up without thorough cleaning...and now the debris reemerged.

The good news keeps coming. My Engine builder has found the issue here is this mornings email figured it was easier to quote than paraphrase. "The crank thrust is f'ed, the thrust bearing is shot and it has damaged the crankshaft thrust surface. Also some damage to the crank housing/bearing saddle, but I think that part is superficial. Looking on Rennlist it looks like the crank can be repaired, magnafluxed (crack check), welded, ground, heat treated, nitrated, etc. I'll have to talk this over with my crank grinding guy. The alternative would be to find another crank, but apparently they're as rare as hens teeth. The thrust bearing controls the fore and aft movement of the crank. This is the source of all the metal filings." Anyone got a good 3.4 crank?

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This is not new failure mode... Very common these days, especially from driver's that sit on the clutch at stop lights. He should have found this early on, as the engine gets a massive amount of end float and its very apparent. Be most concerned now with collateral damage from very hard debris circulating through the entire engine through contaminated oil. You must ultrasonically clean all components, or this will come back to haunt you later. The crank can't be welded without compromise. Replace the crank.

Hi, Bad news my 04 996 sounded the same way. Skip forward about 5 months and 13,500 with a rebuilt engine. This is after 3 months prior I paid 4,500 for new lifters. You are going to need to rebuild. Cylinders are scored. By the scope and take a look. Sorry, Anthony

sorry for the bad news. such a ****ty feeling.

What's the part number on your crank there's one on eBay here in U.K. , if it's a match I'll send you the details, if you strip it all down and get it cleaned then rebuild with a different crank should be ok, what are the liners like, a couple of small lines you can just about get away with, but if they are quite heavily scored you will need liners, send us more pics , I like the one with the silicon sealant eek!!

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Thanks, the part numbers are as follows: 9961015R 5X3 996 054 F429850 All the bores are out of round, liners for sure along with pistons (given) and probably rods as someone has number stamped my end caps which is a big no no.

Hmmm...What's the "core" worth without a crank? Anything? RND engine time? A full re-build gets you around the same price no? Sorry for your misfortune! It seems a good time to do some serious number crunching...

The part number is stamped into the end of one of the webs it has more numbers than you have said , it will be like 996.102.011.58, the crank I've seen is from a 2.7 boxster, anyone know if this is interchangeable, I know some are but can't remember which , I will ask the guy for the part number, it comes as a full set with carrier rods and pistons so might be just what you need!

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Ok, I thought I had every option covered!!! I will recheck. Thanks

Boxster 2.7 and 3.2 ym2000 will interchange with 98-00 3.4 part number 99610201157. Boxster 2.7 and 3.2 01-03 will interchange with 01 3.4 part number 99610201156 SS to 99610201158. Any of these 2.7 3.2 3.4 crankshafts can be interchanged IF the matching IMS shaft and timing chain is used ie. early dual roller or later toothed link. They all have same stroke of 78mm.

Thanks Porschetech 3 thats helpful. Off hand do you know if the rods are the same too, as mine have been number stamped and this is supposed to be a no no with this design? Cheers Chris

I just asked the guy it's sold sorry !!! It was a good deal £325 crank carrier rods and pistons !! Pistons were for boxster though so would be different !

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Thank you for trying. Boxster parts seem to at least exist, so this is a big help. I'm putting in liners and going up in capacity, so cylinders are not required.

And just for the record no IMSB failure. All the bores are oval though and two are scored. Is this the new IMS???

There was a good write up about parts interchangeably by Autofarm I think, might be worth a read!

Cool I will take a look. Really helpful thank you.

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Yes, they ARE the same !! I have a set ,pm me.

Thanks Porschetech 3. Looking forward to the care package. Block is on its way to LN for liners, we are on the road to recovery!!!

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Your Welcome !!Your rods are on the way.. Check your e-mail for tracking number.

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This primary failure mode surfaced in the 928 world with auto trans mostly in 86 and newer cars. Of course, the failure inducer was completely different as the torque of the engine would produce a twist shrink in the transaxle shaft. The take-up and release causes the pinch clamp on the flex plate to extend, and pushes the crank slowly into the thrust bearing and then the block. In this case, either the driver rode the clutch all the time, or the clutch pre-load was out of spec and maintained forward pressure on the flywheel and crank. The debris found in the filter seems to be a mix of thrust bearing, and crank metal, with some other secondary swarf tossed in for good measure. While a decent borescope would have discovered the cyl scoring, nothing short of disassembly would have discovered the thrust bearing issue. It was doomed to disassembly from the very start. A sad end to this engine. I don't think I would trust a crank exchange in this block unless it's checked very carefully. The crank thrust failure generates a lot of heat on the case journal. If it were brought up to spec, you could later suffer fretting of the case at the main journal surrounding web due to heat cycling from the slow thrust bearing torture(not 'superficial' at all). I read a decent write up of a money-wise 996 owner who chose the Boxster engine swap and used a 3.2 from a Boxster S as I recall. The conversion sounded fairly straightforward with a few holes needed to be drilled somewhere for fitting the intake, or some other deal. Didn't sound like a rough job. The lower HP he advised was hardly noticeable, which makes sense as the difference was quite marginal. I'm not advocating it, but for the price of a Boxster S engine, vs a full rebuild, something to consider. Of course, the Boxster S engine would need very good evaluation before purchase, but the same can be said about the rebuild process as well. Sorry, hope it has a happy ending whichever way you go.

Boxster S 3.2 (no 3.4 in the Box as stock)engines are around the the same price as the 3.4 from the 996. 2.5 and 2.7 Box engines much cheaper but down on power for the O.P's. application Call L.A. Dismantlers for more. The real challenge is not price it is finding a good 3.4.Even a good 3.4 long block is difficult.3.2 different story.Much discussed in Search

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Oops, sorry and thank you. I will amend my post. I thought the 3.2 engine was significantly cheaper than the 3.4 in the used market? Haven't checked.

Hmmm... http://www.ebay.com/itm/01-Boxster-S...JY5E2h&vxp=mtr http://www.ebay.com/itm/2001-Porsche...VYBBY6&vxp=mtr 22k miles, no core charge, $5k. This would be good to put in my car for DD use, and keep the 3.4 in wraps for resale some day: http://www.ebay.com/itm/01-Boxster-S...1YeXLn&vxp=mtr

My Engine builder is being extremely careful with everything, so I'm trusting we can get the old block back up and running, he has ideas for improving this particularly woeful single thrust bearing situation too and is using lessons from other 911 engines. Just so there is no confusion regarding "clutch riding" I'm not the guilty one, as I drove it approx 900km's of its indicated 130K kms before it "failed". I have to agree regarding PPI, it would never have picked up the thrust bearing failure, but probably would have spotted some of the other crap that's been done, a lesson learnt and clearly a warning to anyone else who buys one without a PPI. I also have a horrible suspicion that the repairs carried out prior to purchase were to disguise this issue, but of course I'll never be able to prove it!

An extensive PPI could have detected this.. Debris in the oil is one way, part of the thrust shim in the oil sump is another... But just grabbing the crank pulley and thrusting it fore and aft is the quick way. PPIs for these cars are a joke, its time that shops and dealers be held accountable for what they don't find. That said, an extensive PPI takes me all day, and costs over a thousand bucks.

Yeah, the three places I called for a PPI wanted to focus on all the cosmetic and systems stuff. Like: "wipers, low speed - good. wipers, high speed - good, wipers, intermittent - good,,,". When I told them I wanted the sump plate taken off, and the bottom of the engine inspected all of them said something like 'well, that isn't the kind of pre-purchase inspection we do, and it would be $xxx for us to do it, and we can't guarantee the results, etc.' I just blew them all off and did it myself. Learned a bunch and really got to know the car well, and I was a noob on the model. But - I got the sump plate off and on, and learned what I wanted to know. Having been inside a bunch of piston aircraft flat engines, I would still be very leery of reusing the block. I've seen fretting on some engines at the case halves from the weird 3rd order harmonics of the Otto cycle 6 cyl opposed flat style(supposed to be perfectly balanced, but - no, torsional loads have to take into acct). Of course, the water cooled auto engine is quite different, but the physics of the harmonics are the same.

Whoa... engine shut down sounded funny.

Just to update anyone interested, we have progress. My block halves are on their way back from L&N complete with Nickies , still looking at crankshaft options and "all the other stuff", but one piece of the puzzle has dropped into place. Time for wallet exploding bills to start arriving. You never know I might get to drive it this summer!!

F*ck me that was a big bill. But ohhhh so shiny. Slowly it comes back to life. Nickies Lovely new JE Pistons

I will tell you that my motor failure has really put a bad taste in my mouth for buying another Porsche. I know you are gambling when you buy one of these things, but it seems like more are having major issues with age. Some are lucky, but then again are paying 10-20k for rebuilds. Kudos to those who are footing the bills for these wonderful cars.

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Yah, I kinda sorta finally got there also (bad taste). How many other non-Porsche cars have you bought that cost under $20K and were high performers, but which REQUIRED you to get up to a $1000 PPI before you purchase it? ...and if it "fails" the PPI, you're out of the money. But meanwhile, the reason you get the PPI is to make sure it won't fail within the first week (even though no one can guarantee their PPI to cover the 100 things that can go wrong). For some, it takes one slap in the face to comprehend the greater picture; for me, it took about 10 slaps over the past 10+ years; for many others, the need to remain loyal to something outweighs common sense, and it might never happen. BTW, you see the same with Chevy and Ford enthusiasts, as well as Redskins and Mets (etc.) fans -- as examples. I'm down to 2 remaining Porsches (air cooled plus a Cayman), but will be trying something different when these crap out. Every time we drive the Cayman, it's pins and needles when there is a strange road sound. The 87 is still a project, gulp. Ah, and one more thing.... WHEN YOU GO TO SELL THE P-CAR, good Gawd, the accusations and suspicions and doubts about your veracity and integrity that are flung your way by prospective buyers who are half-knowledgeable about these cars.... well, it makes you feel like a criminal that you are even charging them! Makes you feel like you should be giving them the car, and then paying the repairs for anything that mechanically goes wrong in the first 2 years! Sellers, tell me I'm not wrong. Well, I better go out and change the oil on the Cayman. It's been 200 (two hundred) miles or 2 months. Don't want anything bad to happen to the car due to under-maintenance. Guess I'll go get some expensive oil and take the minivan to get it; come to think of it, the minivan hasn't had the oil checked or changed in 10,000 miles and over a year. Nah, the van's good for at least another couple thou before I change it with whatever brand and weight oil is cheapest at Walmart.... ?Misplaced loyalties?

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IMO the way Porsche thinks of its customers is classic big corp taking them for granted. Many companies fall into this trap and only realize their market has been disrupted when its too late to do anything about it. I'm reminded by this bullet point list which crops up on LinkedIn every few months and its so accurate. (attached) Right now Porsche probably thinks electric vehicles are a fringe threat to its business but I feel they are its biggest threat due to a number of factors. The Porsche range and brand has been moving more and more away from driving enthusiasts and more to fat businessmen (moving into SUV's for example) with lots of money burning a hole in their pocket, a market like this is much more fickle and won't show much brand loyalty. Instead of aiming for driving enjoyment Porsche is too fixated (like most of the car industry) on numbers like 0-60, top speed, lateral G, etc etc. It gets harder and harder to keep delivering better looking numbers with the constraint of a gasoline motor, all the while meeting harder emissions standards, noise, reliability. Usually you make a tradeoff and reliability and/or cost suffer, hence porsche now moving to turbos on all 911's for example. Meanwhile electric cars are getting more and more range all the time, battery prices are dropping, electric motors have *one* moving part and are very reliable, performance is increasing with *NO* tradeoff in complexity or reliability. At some point Mr fat businessman is going to look at porsche Vs brand X electric, it will be faster, quieter, more reliable and have a better resale residual and the decision will be logical and easy. Porsche will race to try and re-brand itself but will it succeed? Here's more evidence, 911R Vs Peugeot Rallye by Chris Harris, I'm sure a lot of folks have seen this video but what is amazing is how the Peugeot holds its own, the bigger numbers 911R looks light years ahead on paper yet to an enthusiast it isn't. Once you give up on enthusiasts and reduce your product to a set of numbers your product is a commodity. https://youtu.be/EfDHULZZjpQ

Quotes source post: 14463911

Interesting and poignant critique. All valid points.

Quotes source post: 14463584

That's Kinda how it works: P lenty O f R eceipts S orry C an't H ave E verything