I bought the cheapest Porsche on Craigslist and the IMS bearing has failed.

I bought the cheapest Porsche 996 on Craigslist (as a non-runner) and I think the IMS bearing has failed. The car is a 2002 911 Carrera Coupe. It has 101k miles on the odometer. I pulled the filter, opened it up and found feromagnetic flakes (see pics). There are also feromagnetic flakes in the filter housing and in the oil that I drained out of the filter housing. How likely is it that I can save this engine? Am I better off buying a used engine? If the engine can be saved I'd like to rebuild it myself. 1OgRYlx.jpg tccx9xS.jpg wOuhDsR.jpg 5M70lYp.jpg sLNtTrl.jpg pZTDdg8.jpg ikkDMLl.jpg l5zEi9N.jpg

Have you taken the oil pan off yet? If not, I would do that. What did the seller say happened to the car? Based on your pics, I think it leads to the IMS bearing. If you're going to rebuild the engine yourself, be prepared for it to take you a while and you will need to purchase some specialty tools. How much did you pick it up for?

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I haven't pulled the pan yet, I'll get to it sometime this week. He said he picked it up at auction and never drove it. It was already bad when he got it. $7,500

I think the first thing to do is take the oil pan off to see what's in there. After that, I would plan on pulling the engine and trans to inspect further since it's not running anyway. Where do you live? I might be able to help you out with a running engine.

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I'm in the Denver, CO area. Any assistance is appreciated, what did you have in mind?

Does it run?

Perfect opportunity for an LS engine change...(nice V8 growl)

I so want to do an LS swap...how much are the LS crate engines going for now? https://www.gmperformancemotor.com/p...hoCwxEQAvD_BwE $7K?! YES!

The size, shape, color, and consistency of the debris does support IMSB failure based on what I see there.. Post those pics. Of course this is the single row IMSB fitted engine, which further supports the IMSB probability... FYI- I will only have one M9X hands- on rebuild school in 2020, it will be held in January with a date TBD.

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Nice looking mk2 996! Unfortunate about the metal laden oil that you've discovered. IMHO, the engine should NOT be started until it's completely cleansed and rebuilt. Some people would say just "screw it" and flush it with multiple oil changes. But I'm going with the advice of many that have built and/or rebuilt these engines when they've experience what I see in your pictures. That metal contaminated oil is like sand paper to the internal engine components. Over time, it will severely damage those valuable components to the point that they can not be reused. Now I assume you're not wanting to pay a top Porsche shop to rebuild it? Therefore, I would advise you to watch Jake Raby's videos on his YouTube channel called Rennvision. He clearly explains the good, bad, and ugly with the M96 engines on the bore scoring videos. Of course, the main topic is about why these engines suffer from cylinder bore scoring, but in the process, you learn so much about them from one of the top Porsche engine builders on the planet. Jake Raby also mentioned in a couple of threads that he will be releasing a "M9X" rebuild series by the holidays. If I was going to tackle this job on my own, I'd look into getting access to that series. Lastly, I would caution you about buying another used engine. Why? Because it can have all the same troubles you're dealing with now. If you want to purchase another engine for this car, then I'd contact LN about finding a rebuilt motor that has all the common failure points addressed. (e.g. Nikasil plated cylinders, IMS Solution, etc.) Good luck!

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Fools errand. So many people have done those swaps and ended up spending more than what a rebuild would have cost. Plus, the driving dynamics are screwed. One of the beauties of the Flat 6 engine is it's low center of gravity. Something you won't get with a LS swap IMHO.

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Quit raining on my parade!

OP, Nobody can know the status of the engine without a nearly total tear down. Enough options out there to stuff the neck of a giraffe and gag it. IMO: 1) If this is your project for the next year...take the FSI rebuild class after you purchase the FSI rebuild video series due out before Thanksgiving (right B3?). Some very, very good rebuild threads on this forum. This route would be pretty awesome, and you might save a little $. 2) If this is your car to drive the snot out of this year...get an LN motor and install it yourself. This route puts you driving your car for somewhere near $25k (all in). Good hunting!

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I would be very interested in that class. One of the reasons I chose this car is because it was so original, I'd like to keep it that way, so an LS (or other non-M96/03) swap is not in my future. The seller did start it for me, I had him shut it down quickly though, no sense making it worse.

Sell it (you payed to much) and start over. You're going to be in so deep you'll never get it back. You can find a good well maintained driver for less then what this project will cost you...You might get lucky with a used motor but then you might not (another 6-10K flushed) and that motor could have issues.

I agree with Hatchett's post and others...Job 1: Get an expert's opinion on the internal damage, then make decisions on a re-build, replacement, or. The looming question is whether it has suffered a "catastrophic failure". If so, the costs of re-build soar to about $15K or more. If not, then a used engine can/will cost $5-9K, not counting shipping, installation, and "while we're in there stuff." These engines are very complex...only re-builds by an expert should be considered...amateurs need not apply. relinuca

All great advice, but it boils down to setting "your" budget first. Second, what's your total(car + rebuild) budget? If your numbers look good, then this should be a great learning experience and fun project to tackle.

I have no mechanical skills, never been on RL, never owned a Porsche but I paid cash for a non running 996 with no PPI. Did we get that right? Not trying to be negative but this is a good lesson for others, if this is legit, how not to buy a car.

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Ouch. With every start more damage occurs. Don't start it again until it's fully rebuilt. You should also bore scope the cylinders to see the condition of the bore surfaces. Follow Jake's videos on YouTube.

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Andy, What are your goals for the car? And your point is?

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What's the point of scoping if the motor needs to be torn down and opened up?

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Fools errand is to rebuild the throw away M96 and still have it in your car. If done correctly it�s money well spent. An electric conversion would be better than the stock engine.

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You would be better off selling this car and buying a $25,000 nice 996, or an automatic 996 turbo. Money and time better spent.

like others said, drop the pan and have a look see, I'd also pull the plugs and scope them, then hand rotate the engine to see if it rotates ok If it does, next thing I'd do is drop the tranny and pop the IMS cover off and take a look

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Like the advice to drop the sump versus just examining the filter, this would help confirm the extent of the damage. If for some reason, unbeknownst to anyone at this time, the cylinders are NOT suffering from scoring, then that may give the OP some new found options to save money especially if he's rebuilding it himself.

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Buying a $25K 996 that might have a looming catastrophic failure is money and time better spent.? Not to all of us!

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right ignore the fact that 90% of the 996s dont have cat failure brilliant logic so very tired of the fear mongering

And now, for something completely different. I know of two engines that had IMSB failure, but were caught in time, and the engine oil circuit was flushed, the IMSB was replaced, and the engine ran. This is not an endorsement, nor is it a plan for one to follow, just that 'catastrophic' and marginal failure are two different things. How much would it cost to replace only the IMSB? couple hundred. How long will it last? From 2-200-2000 miles. Maybe YMMV, objects in mirror, pro driver closed course, contents have settled, and may cause **** leakage.

I'm in Aurora and have some tools and manuals. Don't know how much help I could offer, but let me know what you need.

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^^Thats probably on the high end of what it�s actually worth. How much did you research before you bought it? Do you realize to rebuild the engine properly (even if you do it yourself) is going to run in the $15k range? If you do, and you�re up for it, more power to you! 👍

This sounds like the beginning of an episode of Hoovie's Garage!

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+1 Is Prelude saying that no one should ever buy a 996, period? The paranoia has gone overboard...

I pulled the sump plate and this is what I found (some pics are before I dumped the excess oil). vxjjXGd.jpg ZqrbBCK.jpg XZpTiEX.jpg WKiEyOt.jpg NFHpilF.jpg HiGVxJi.jpg 9WYJa5I.jpg sclcULo.jpg DG5Kx08.jpg 8DRAK45.jpg SfJpbwi.jpg

We call that "makin' metal". Looks like it's been going on for a while. Fairly sure it's the IMSB taken a dump all over the innards of your engine. I doubt the IMSB replacement at this point would do any good. Rebuild time for you.

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Well, I hope I address everyone here, if I missed someone I apologize. I've been looking for a well maintained example for over a year with no luck. Either the cars are falsely advertised as 'perfect' or they are perfect and the seller wants $35k firm. I have about $10k to play with this year, probably another $10k or so next year. No sir, I never said that I have no mechanical skill. I'm not a Master Mechanic, but I've been wrenching on my own rides since I was knee high to a grasshopper. I've been lurking on RL for years. I've never owned a Porsche before though, so this will be the biggest project I've ever taken on. I didn't see the need to pay for a PPI when I know the engine is bad. I almost called the seller an idiot when he started it! I didn't ask him to, he took it upon himself. Short term, I'd like to get it running quickly, probably with a new (used) engine. Long term, I'd like to rebuild the original engine, perhaps take the Knowledge Gruppe rebuild class. Pics are uploaded in previous post, please let me know what you think. I'm not willing to take the risk of completely destroying the original motor if I can avoid it, I'd like to rebuild it if possible. That would be AMAZING, and you would be my new best friend As I mentioned above, I've been looking for a well maintained example for over a year with no luck. I knew rebuilding the engine wouldn't exactly be cheap, I'm hoping it can be done for less than $15k. I'm not familiar with Hoovie's Garage, what is it?

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+1 Agreed, however, I think your 90% figure is VERY low. +2 Is this just another Flat6 infomercial??? If so, shame on me for tuning in...

Looking for a year, where? We see these cars in good shape all the time selling $17-$20K all day long. Are those cracks in the oil pan? Short term = Porsche short block. Jakes rebuild class would be great if you have the time, special tools and space to do it. Rebuilds on the cheap will run about $13-$15K if I recall. Someone did a spread sheet with costs from various companies. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ebuild+options There's a couple of good DIY rebuild threads to get familiar with, good luck and keep us posted.

However much he paid is how much he wanted to pay. As for rebuilding, what have you got to lose? Tons of folks with tons of experience on here to help you along the way. I hope you choose to rebuild and I get to follow. Always wanted to rebuild a Porsche motor. Just can't find the time to justify it.

It actually looks like a light failure.. Still has to come all apart, have ultrasonic cleaning, and etc, but it certainly appears to have some good hope for a rebuild project. With damage like this, the primary concern is collateral damage, and cleaning all the debris from ALL the components. Cleaning will take you as long as assembly in lots of cases. FYI- The dates for the only M9X engine rebuild class of 2020 are being finalized now, likely it will be one of the last 2 weekends in January 2020. We are so busy here that I am having to forego classes to handle more of the workload of engine building, here at the training facility.

Wow - there's a lot of junk in that sump. I never expected to see a bicycle tire, though. Best of luck.

With that type of sludge in the pan, it looks like that oil has been in there a long time. It also looks like regular oil, not synthetic. Did you get any maintenance records? That aside, good luck with your decision.

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Heh - brings back memories of that '50 ways to lose your motor' song adaptation thread. That was fun.

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Heavier oil in an attempt to quiet some noise?

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I have no affiliation (with anyone). I don't see any cracks, where do you see cracks? Thank you. Thank you for the analysis, It gives me hope that the engine can be saved. Haha, that bike has to go, it's been hanging from the rafters unused for 2 years. No maintenance records other than what was reported to CarFax and AutoCheck

HiGVxJi.jpg Notice the lines around the drain plug area. I had to do a triple take on the bike pic...

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That is a lot of junk in the sump???? This is what I found when my engine stopped running....in in my opinion this is a lot of junk😀....

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TRUTH

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You two need to knock off the BS! Both of you continue to dog out the greatest asset we have in our community and some of us a tired of it! I hope neither of you experience some sort of catastrophic failure, but if you do, who you gonna call?

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Yep - that's a lot. At least there's no bike tire though. So you've got that going for you - which is nice.

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Agree with Bill - you two trolls are getting tiresome. I've found there are a few here that go out of their way to be anti-social, call anyone else's stuff junk, or otherwise can find nothing positive to add to any conversation. All I can say: karma's a bitch.

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I'll check that tonight, thanks for pointing it out. The bike tire freaked me out for a split second until I remembered that the bike is hanging from the rafters right above where I was working.

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Please do open your eyes to fact that 90% plus of all 996 cars dont and wont have CAT failure. And, to the real possibility that IMSB failure on RL is overblown, and just maybe by those profiting by it. No BS. Truth. Nice thing about opinion blogs is we can disagree.

Pull the oil pump off and take a close look at the condition of the pump lobes and housing. It will tell you a lot about how much of that kind of debris got sucked up etc. you might have gotten lucky with this, if all that debris is just the IMS itself you *might* have caught it in time and some minimal work and $ will get it back on the road. Still gotta hand rotate and scope etc, replace IMS and flush flush flush!

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Great, every time u post u bring up this point. Your arguement really looses traction when posting in a tread about a car with a catastrophic failure. This motor is a full dissassembly and rebuild at this point and someone is going to profit from it and it has nothing to do with the guys 'hyping' the issue.

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C'mon Bill, it's a big world. I'm pretty sure there's more than one qualified shop for the M96. Besides, from rumors(actually from the guy himself), they are so backed up with work, they won't even talk to you until Trump is re-elected. (oops, that were an accident!)

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The number of sycophants here is downright creepy... I have no clue who you are referring to as I've never called anyone's stuff junk nor engaged in unprovoked outright anti-social behavior. As far as Karma is concerned, I couldn't care less as I'm not a practitioner of Hinduism or Buddhism.

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Good to know but you can surely understand my skepticism as this is a very curious way to purchase a first Porsche (i.e., paying $7,500 for a high-priced European roller without having a prior plan to professionally fix or replace the engine, or possessing the experience or knowledge to fix the engine (or even knowing what these options will cost) yourself). I wish you the best of luck in getting the car back on the road...if you can salvage the engine with minor DIY repairs it will prove to be an excellent deal for you but the amount of debris that has circulated through that running engine may have, unfortunately, turned much of it into scrap metal.

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I did the exact same thing last September. Now I have a fantastic running and good looking 02 for $10K (roller + motor).

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....and the wooden particle board !!! lol..I had to got back through all the pictures to figure out WTF you were talking about !!!

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Pfft. About 20 years ago I purchased a 1937 Cord Beverly. Now, I have to qualify a bit as about 80% of it was in BOXES. A crank here, a wheel hub there. It was a giant puzzle. I had no affiliation with anyone in the Auburn Cord Duesenberg club, and I paid way over $7500 bucks back then. Plenty of the repairs was u-make-it with a welder and a lathe. It was fun, and a ton of work. He'll be fine.

Good luck, I am sure with some patience and DIY you could get it done on the cheaper side.

Congratulations! What a great opportunity to work on and learn about your car. I think you paid reasonable money for a mint chassis. You have lots of options ranging from salvage to high end rebuild, or even alternative power (LS, electric, etc.). Any way you slice it, you'll have fun with the project. You'll learn more about the car than 99% of owners, and a lot more than many people on Rennlist. Not much downside. Good luck, and please let me know if I can help. I've saved a 996 from the scrap heap, so have plenty of hands on experience to share.

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I cleaned that area up a bit and took another pic. 8RPJriD.jpg For all the world it does look like cracks. They don't appear on the outside (no pic).

On the upside the pan is one of the few parts that's easy to get, actually doesn't break the bank and can be installed in < an hour..

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Just to lighten things up a little. Doc here's another one:

I got my new endoscope from Amazon today, it took me about an hour lying under the car to figure out how to use it. It's nice to be able to see things inside an engine that I've never seen before, but there is a steep learning curve to using this thing, it's almost an art form. Here are the pictures from the first three cylinders (the ones I could get too). I don't know how I'm going to get to the two hard-to-reach cylinders, any advice on that? After an hour, my back and neck told me that I was done for the night. C9yx9br.jpg UKlkfmH.jpg gL8gls7.jpg y8mHQnG.jpg w5HdlHX.jpg zcIuVWg.jpg Rlrim17.jpg uH6RQgM.jpg s8y7b1P.jpg I also ordered a new (used) engine today. It's out of an '04 and has 80k miles on it. I have reason to believe that this is the car it's coming out of. I suspect that car went backwards into a ditch at high speed.

I would make them pull the whole rear bumper and such off and run it,, even then, that car went in the wrong direction for a engine swap.. Just me... When these take a hard rear hit the trans impacts the back of the engine,, that can be a really bad thing..

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The seller is performing a QA inspection on it before shipping it to me. Also, the engine comes with a 2 year warranty. More pictures of what I believe is the donor car for my new (used) engine.

Even if it starts and runs,, your 45lb flywheel and clutch slammed the crank in to the thrust bearings, the cranks weight as well, in the second set of picks it does look more like a off angle hit and the damage isn't too deep, it may not have been too bad, I would tell them you want a crankshaft end play check done.

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I'll ask them to check the crankshaft end play. I'm not sure if this changes anything but the donor car was an automatic.

Get ALL the electronics. The engine you are swapping with is an 04 auto, 4S, and your car is an 02 manual non-S. Will be an interesting swap. Get everything electrical from the seller, including the brains. You may have to pay more, but you'll likely need them.

+1 and when he says all,, I'm thinking it really means ALL you need the cluster to go with the ECU, all the under dash wiring, the slave computers for security, chassis etc,, possibly the ignition lock assembly steering column etc.. I'd spend serious time with a wiring diagram before finalizing the buy.. I think the ABS is different as well?

And make sure they don't use the oil pan for a jack point!

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I don't think this is as much of a concern as it would be if you were trying something creative like trying to put a 996.1 3.4 engine into a 996.2 3.6 or vice versa (or a 997 3.8 into a 996.1 like Lowpue had Dundon do). If I remember correctly, the '02 and '04 are both 996.2, so it should be a straight swap. I think the tip has a spare vacuum line off the intake, but that is easily solved by moving the intake over from the original car. Otherwise, I think it is the same. My "been there done that" advice is to do the plugs, AOS, RMS, IMS bearing, serpentine belt, oil pressure sender, and any other hard to get to or wear items before you put the new engine into the car. Access is much easier out of the car. You'll save a lot of hassle and cursing further down the line if you do it this way.

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You may be right, and I'll defer to others with more experience. However, there may be running changes for emissions that affect the 04 and not the 02. Or, it will slip right in, no trouble.

What do I need to replace on the new (used) engine before installing it in the car? So far I'm thinking: Oil Filter Air Filter Fuel Injectors Water Pump Air Oil Separator (AOS) Spark Plugs Coil Packs Mass Air Flow Sensor (MAF) Rear Main Seal (RMS) Intermediate Shaft Bearing (IMSB) What's missing from the list? Is anything on the list overkill? Should I replace the O2 sensors, are they easy to get to after installation?

Maybe put some 997 swirlpots, low temp thermostat. Check primary and secondary oil pumps for debris.

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thermostat is a good one, I missed that. what are swirlpots?

I personally wouldn't bother with injectors or coil packs unless they are bad, but others might. I'd add the oil pressure sensor, not because it is bad, but because they fail frequently, are cheap, and are super easy to replace with the engine out. I'd also add a serpentine belt to go with your water pump, gasket and low temp thermostat. There is a plastic water line junction near the crank pulley that often breaks, and there is a metal aftermarket option (rauch and spiegel). Easy to do while the engine is out. 996.106.226.52/157. 516.252. Check for brittle vacuum lines, leaky o-rings, sealing washers, hoses, etc. Replace as necessary. Start a list of the small stuff - tensioner sealing rings, flywheel and pressure plate hardware, cam cover caps, wicking green loctite, Loctite 5900, etc. Swirl pots are in the sump, pick up oil and remove air. Easy swap out while you're in there. Deeper sumps are a popular option. Add a skid plate. I'd evaluate and replace both motor mounts and the transmission mount.

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Good advice, I'll do that I already ordered the belt. First time I've seen the Porsche part cheaper than aftermarket Tensioner seal rings are for when I change the IMSB, correct? Is that the only time I'd need them? I didn't think about the flywheel/pressure plate hardware. Even though I plan to reuse the flywheel and pressure plate I still have to replace the bolts once I remove them. Thanks for the reminder. I'm hoping others will chime in to expand on the etc. Is there a particular part number you are aware of? Searching doesn't seem to work, I'm guessing because they are for 997 not 996? I'll most likely do the deep sump on the original engine rebuild, not the temporary engine. Skid plate is a good idea. Good advice. Thank you for the feedback.

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I agree with checking the end play and also check the runout for crankshaft bending at the flywheel/flex plate outer circumference . This is more critical for the manual engines with the heavy DMF, and since this is a Tip, is much more supported. There is no need for DME, immobilizer,, cluster, HVAC ect, as both engines can use the same Motronics version. The tiptronic engine harness WILL have a couple more wires and vacuum lines for the tip changeover valve that controls the coolant flow to the trans cooler, but the vaccum lines can just be swapped over or capped, and the extra wires can be just left disconnected/taped out of the way..All other advice seems to be spot on...Dr. h.c. Porschetech3

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I asked the seller to test the end play, they said they would and that they'd send a report with the engine, but I'd like to verify myself. Any advice on the best way to test both of them myself when I receive the engine and also what values/ranges would be considered good vs bad? Thank you

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For the end play, set up a dial indicator on the crank shaft end and push-pull the crank, should be .002-.010 thou. For the runout set up dial indicator on the outer edge of flywheel/flexplate and rotate engine, there is no spec, but less is best, I would like to see less than .010 thou...

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I am one of those. My IMSB was shot to bits, caught it in time, no skipped timing yet. Debris looked kinda like yours. Flushed the engine, cleaned as well as I could, installed my own sealed IMSB. Disabled oil-bypass valve. Flushed it again after a few hundred KM. Cost me a whole 300$ in materials. Happy camper so far. This was one and a half years ago, and 15k km has been driven since. Don't let the fear mongering get to you. Some have actual monetary incentives (want to sell you something, yes it's true..), and some just desperately want you to walk the same expensive path they walked, so they feel validated in their own expensive choice. Don't let em get you. That engine can probably be saved with minimal cost if its oil filter bypass valve is still in good condition. Contrary to popular belief, if that bypass valve was good and your filter wasn't torn, none of those debris will have gone through any critical parts of the engine. It will always have had a pressurized clean stream of oil, and debris cannot flow stream-upwards to critical bearing surfaces. Simply doesn't happen.

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Yea, I read your thread and you definitely dodged a bullet, but with all due respect, I'm a little apprehensive about the longevity of these engines when we tell other owners to just "flush the engine and it will be alright". I believe the best course of action when an engine exhibits this much metal and other debris in the sump, is to advise them to have the engine removed and fully rebuilt. I guess if the owner doesn't care about loosing the engine and/or the new bearing, then he could take your route, but it's bad for companies like LN Engineering when they're sued for killing an engine with the replacement bearing. Charles Navarro has said in past threads that quite a few have tried that. It costs him valuable time and money to fight the cases. I guess that explains why they won't warranty a product without it being installed by a certified installer that put the engine through a pre-qualification procedure.

I wouldn't advocate doing that either, but it is funny when I contrast the ultra conservative approaches we take for our cars with some of the dirt cheap and pragmatic mechanical repairs I've seen in India and other parts of the world with fewer resources. Makes me chuckle when I see people on Internet forums getting worked up about oil viscosities and little stuff like that.

Andy, If you are interested in trying to save your engine by replacing the IMSB, let me know. I have a brand new IMSB that I would be willing to offer up as a sacrifice to the M96 Gods. Lol I'm curious if the engine can be saved. PM me and we can figure something out.

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The "best" course of action is of course to buy an entirely new motor and then some several k$ to address all 'popular weaknesses', and this is basically what some people on here basically suggest every time they see an engine that has issues. "Throw 20-30k $ against it and you'll be good!" Yeah thanks for the help, I guess? But. If the engine oil filter and bypass valve were good, I see no reason at all to take apart and rebuild the entire motor. On that premise, debris will not have made it to any critical parts of the engine. (unless you started it in arctic subzero temperatures with a broken IMS, and even then you'd only have a few seconds of dirty oil at most, after which the debris is rapidly flushed out). Has the filter or valve failed? Yes, rebuild, period. But the failure rates on these valves is not nearly as big as some (some that have quite an expensive solution to that 'issue' to sell, mind you, monetary incentive) would want you to believe. In fact, they never shared any numbers on failure rates, only "I've seen numerous bad valves so I will always recommend my 'invention'". Whether 'numerous' means several-thousand or 'less than 10 from a sample size of 1000 engines', the story never tells, but when lacking actual numbers take a wild guess which one is closer to the truth. For one I couldn't care less what's good or bad for LN Engineering or any company. I care what's good for the individual that's having issues. But at the same time, if you're replacing the IMS yourself I strictly recommend not buying any LNE bearings, period. They're basically glass bearings, designed to only go into a pristine engine. Any debris in the sump from whatever source, even if something unrelated fails after installation? RIP bearing. They're not suited for a hostile environment of any kind, which is why this whole pre-qual procedure exists in the first place. If your IMS failed, you buy a sealed replacement IMS bearing, to make it resistant to any leftover contamination in the sump. Stay away from LN bearings or any other open one. Again, the only piece of that engine that is contaminated is the sump and maybe the chains from minor splash. No critical parts (bearings, lifters, cylinder walls, crankshaft) will ever see the debris-laden oil if your filter is good.

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I agree with you 100% for engines that are still running. For my personal situation, if I had an engine that suffered an IMS failure like the OP's, I would do exactly what you did with your engine. I see no reason to "DANGER DANGER!!!! OMG!!!! Stop driving it and get it rebuilt!!" I think it's best to try to get as much life out of it as possible. If you decide to go with a full rebuild, there are PLENTY of other non-running engines out there to use as a core. If we were talking about a Nissan or Toyota engine and it had some common problem, I would suggest rebuilding the engine because those are fairly easy to rebuild. But when you're talking about the M96 that is expensive no matter which way you go, you might as well try to roll the dice to see if you can keep it running. For the average person looking at these cars, I will always suggest people buy a roller and have the engine rebuilt the correct way. IMO, it's the best option to fully enjoy the car with the least amount of headaches and potential expenses. However, for people who like to tinker like me, I think trying to fix a running M96 is never a bad idea. That's what I tried to do with the first 996 I bought with a blown engine. Wasn't as lucky as you though. The timing chain was broken.

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A bit conflicted there aren't you.

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One of the three of us should grab up the old motor and see what we can do with it. I don't have a chassis to mess with but I wouldn't mind putting the bearing in and do the cleaning. It would be a low cost fix for someone else. ************************************************************************ ************************ On another separate note; BTW, I don't know that anyone has ADVOCATED this approach. If a company gets caught up in a lawsuit after the exceptional pre-qual process, maybe there's a reason.

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I didn't want to turn this into Yet Another IMSB Thread, but I am interested to see if/how folks respond to those statements. I have not decided what IMSB replacement I'm going to use, I was thinking about starting a new thread for that conversation when the time is right.

There really isn't any discussion. What's your budget? The LN Retrofit is the right product to use if your budget is tighter, and the LN Solution is the ultimate.

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The discussion he's alluding to is my statement: LN Retrofit bearings are basically glass bearings that only work in pristine engines with 0 debris in the sump oil ever. Because they are open bearings, they are by definition incompatible with an IMSB-failed engine, period. They cannot withstand any amount of hard contaminants, which is why they may only be installed after extensive pre-qual. (And yes, having any random other part in your engine fail and spewing out metallic debris into the sump oil, will probably take LNE bearings right along with it.) You can never use LNE bearings as a 'fix'. Only preventative. Rebuilding the engine + installing LNE is not a fix, that's building a new engine and installing LNE as a preventative maintenance bearing in that one. You need a sealed bearing , and a maintenance interval of <40.000km. The sealed quality bearing itself will cost about 70 bucks and can be bought at a decent hardware store. Don't get fooled by expensive specialized IMSB 'kits' from aftermarket resellers either (*cough* FVD *cough*), those are the same 70$ bearing with 530$ of Porsche-tax slapped on top of it. Oh if you're going the salvaged motor route, I'd happily buy that old motor off of you as well. Would love to have another pet project, and do some more cleaning + fixing

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I have spare chassis and engines. I would love to find an engine in the shape his is in just to mess with. Failed IMSB, scored cylinders, etc. As long as it's still running. All of my blown engines no longer run.

The original engine is not for sale. I'm planning to rebuild it myself as a long term project.

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Yes, and I think you are off your rocker.

Random thoughts.. I cant even list all the engines transmissions and other heavy equipment I've run in to where a sealed bearing was the source of "the big one" ... The majority of all motorcycle engines used open roller or ball bearings for the crank, 12K rpms don't lie. Almost all transmissions use open ball or roller bearings. Or needle bearings. Where sealed bearings go to heck is when they have pressure against the seal, especially with a light an d heavy lube on opposite sides.. Hartech has been removing the seals for years with good results..

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Great argumentation, buddy. Such a shame that for some lodging insults is their default last resort. Real mature. Go ask the inventor of these bearings. He won't even deny that those bearings break down when met with debris-laden oil.

I do not argue with fools. Every single post you have put on Rennlist (that I've read) is argumentative and contrarian. Why not try adding some value instead of trying to prove to everyone how you are smarter that people who do this for a living. You may well be the first person on whom I test the Rennlist ignore feature.

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Good info, but one question. Do the engines with these open bearings have inherent design flaws where they eat themselves internally? Personally, I've never seen an engine with so much debris floating around, and I think that's the major reason for the argument of having a sealed bearing........in the M96! An open bearing might be the better option.....for uses in applications where hard debris isn't floating in the oil.

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Go ask LN Engineering. Ask them if their bearings would withstand oil with floating hard debris / metallic grit in it. Or don't, if you're scared of the possibility that I speak the truth. It has nothing to do with being smart, that must just be your own insecurity talking or something, dunno where you got that from. Your insults are immature.

So I pulled the back bumper off The Cheapest Porsche On Craigslist and found this: ZBdDoC5.jpg

Certain people here crack me up. In this specific case they say toss a new bearing in it nothing made it past the filter bypass. That filter bypass thing is a hoax.... Then right after that they say you must use a sealed bearing because all of the debris that floats through all M96 engines. And thats also why the companies selling unsealed bearings are awful.... another hoax. Then they mock other people�s skills in argumentation.... that�s irony for certain. I�d love to see this engine and car saved too, but spouting off at the mouth (fingers) and calling successful people and their products hoaxes ain�t gonna do it. We really should make an IMS troll forum and the trolls can moderate it. My M96s are both weeping a bit, need new water pumps, AoSes most likely and I will probably install the solution in the 996 and service the IMSB on the 986. I�m very likely not to post about it here though or share what I learn. I don�t want to argue with trolls about it non-stop.

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if the hard debris,, hurts the bearing LN provides,, you'd think it would lunch the crank/rod/cam bearings as well.. Since they are the same setup.? and with much stuff in the oil,, Cam lobes would get ground up... Hartech has had great luck pulling the seal and letting them splash oil.. All engines float metal,, especially engines that turn this RPM at the power level,, I work on a lot of different engines,, open your average motorcycle engine,,.. the bearings out last every thing else and that's in a engine with the clutch shedding fiber and metal in the oil its entire life.. heck most dirt bike motors are measured in short hours for expected life under race conditions,, but the bottom end and transmission last the whole season. Same with Sprint engines,, they drop metal till the oil turns silver when you dump the tank.. Personally I believe the IMS-b is the result of "quality engineering" the Metzger engines don't really have this problem none of the air cooled engines do either.. But they all flow oil to all the bearings.. Short of a long term destructive testing program nobody can prove the 100% fail cause,, I have a hard time believing Porsche never did it.. But if the data was bad, why would they publish.. ?? They obviously changed the design,, so they saw some sort of potential improvement..

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Don't blame me for your own inability to understand these engines. All critical / wear areas in the engine are supplied by clean, filtered oil. The IMSB is not part of that oil-feed, but literally sits in unfiltered sump-oil all day. And open IMSB relies on unfiltered sump oil for lubrication, period. If you don't understand that difference, and why you shouldn't have an open IMSB with leftover hard-debris in your sump oil , then sorry but I can't help you.

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Okay now explain the 1st argument, in this case just replace the IMSB since it�s not an issue. You need to help your buddy trolls out. I don�t need or desire your help. Furthermore, these bearings are only sealed in name. In reality hot oil enters them and washes out the grease then debris formation can start from within the bearing or fine debris can enter with the oil. If you had actually researched this topic, you�d know this. But you�d rather just tell us what you know even if you don�t know. Find me someone that�s serviced an IMS bearing that was still filled with grease after any appreciable mileage. Troll hard bro!

There's a reason all the experts recommend removing the seal on non-serviceable bearings.

You're free to keep your eyes shut. You're free to believe whatever you want, I've said what I needed to say. I'll say it one more time If you don't believe a word I said, just go ask LN Engineering what oil lubricates their IMS Retrofit (sump oil or filtered oil), and if their Retrofit bearings are capable of withstanding any amount of debris-laden oil. Ask them if there is any situation where their Retrofit can be installed following an IMSB failure that doesn't include complete rebuild and cleaning of ~10-20k $. There's a reason they are super adamant about this and always will be. They will say "no" and "no", the engine and sump oil must be pristine and clean or the Retrofit will simply fail. If they say otherwise, come rub it in my face. Or don't, if you're scared to hear their answer. There's always the ignore feature, I suggest you use it if you want to remain in your most expensive bubble.

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We don�t disagree here at all. My point is the idea behind no metal made it past the filter so clean sump install new bearing = win that you trolls are recommending to the OP. You are contradicting yourselves not me. Blame me for your contradictory thoughts though. It�s the new en vogue thing to do. The bearing is a problem and can become a catastrophic issue. I don�t care how you address it. I just think the OP needs to know the risks involved with all the recommendations. It�s real easy to play what if with someone�s else�s money and engine. A full rebuild will cost 10-20k no matter who does it. If you start looking at the sum total of what�s involved the pricing is about equal across most of the options, quality and the companies backing them are not. Save a penny here or there may or may not pay off in the long run. You can reuse your stock heads as is for example. Or you can go with someone that has them all sent off, inspected, rebuilt and even modified. If you go with a cheap option and do all of that yourself, you will arrive at the big dollar build number pretty quick. Your car do as you wish, but the lies about all of this being a hoax, scam, and understating the issues does a huge dis-service to the OP and anyone else that comes across these posts. There is too much exaggeration on both sides of this coin and it really ruins the enjoyment of these cars. It is an issue and it can be addressed. Here we have a real person with a real car that succumbed to this overblown, hoax, scam.... now what? I hope the OP has success and it�s a long lived and economical as feasible. I wish I had all the answers to give the OP, but I do not. I�m also very certain your advise is quite likely worth less than that. I asked the most interesting man in the world about you. He said, STAY TROLLISH, FRIEND.

Point me to the contradiction. Did I or did I not say that if you go the replacement route, you always need a sealed bearing? You can jump high and low, but a sealed bearing - while not sealed forever - will be sealed absolutely shut for an appreciable amount of time. Even if that's only 10k km (which it's not, as you know it's closer to 40k km), your bearing will be sealed for more than enough time for all the debris left in the places you couldn't reach to have been flushed out and end up in the bottom of the pan or oil filter (which really shouldn't take more than a few hundred km and a few oil changes), after which you drop the pan one more time just to be sure. If you stick an open bearing in immediately after salvaging a motor with sump-debris, you run the risk of lodged debris entering the bearing in the early 10's of kilometers, which will for sure destroy that bearing. You're just hell-bent on calling my comments 'trolls' since you don't want to take the time actually reading them. I could say that's trolling, too.

1). I�m addressing all of you replace the bearing trolls in unison. One of you stated none of the metal made it out of the sump. Guaranteed? I can�t keep track of all of you. It�s an epidemic these days. 2). You are stating put in a sealed bearing then say it�ll last 10 k km or more and that you know it, and I know it too. I don�t. Care to guarantee your solution to the OP? If it doesn�t work will you pay for the rebuild? You�re guessing at best. I�m not hell bent. I�m flat out calling you a troll. I�m also flat out saying your advice is a nuisance and just a tiny bit above worthless. Want to prove me wrong? Do it, drive it, and pay for it when it blows up. Heck I will provide a brand new SK �sealed� bearing in the correct part number and loan you a full set of IMS bearing replacement tools, although I�m sure you have everything you need in a rusty old toolbox stored outside. Do it, or troll on. The most interesting man said STAY TROLLISH, but now you�re no longer his friend. I don�t need to ignore you. It�s people like the OP that need honest help that should ignore you. That is the entire point.

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Mate. My money already is where my mouth is. My Porsche has a 70$ off-the-shelf SMT sealed bearing after my sump was literally coated in debris-laden oil, installed by yours truly. This was 1.5 years ago. I'm at 15k km with that solution as we speak. If you had cared to actually READ, you would've known that instead of checkmating yourself. What experience do you have to contradict and call me a troll anyway?

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This phenomenon is what I would expect an objective person to want to learn more about. I know I did. I have no allegiance to any car maker. If an engine is poorly designed, it's poorly designed! Do you accept the fact that the M96s are unique in that owners need to cut open their oil filters to check for metal debris? If not, we don't need to discuss any further. We can agree to disagree at that point. If you accept that true, the next question is why is there so much floating around. If it's not taking out the upper end of the engine, what could be the reason for that? Metal debris is often found in the oil filter housing, as well as in the sump. If this is such a common occurrence, the next question would be to ask why other parts aren't taken out. Clearly that would mean that the metal debris isn't getting to those areas. Why is the IMSB directly affected by the debris? As proven many times over, the IMSB is right where all of the metal debris collects!!! You can site race engines and motorcycle engines all you want. Show me any other engine that has as much metal debris in the oil filter where it calls for ALL OWNERS to check every time they change their oil. Watch how you speak to people though guy! He's already proven you wrong, tough guy! He did exactly what he is recommending to other people. Why don't you stop calling people names and maybe try to learn something.

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You pull your sump pan recently? Inspect your bores? And as I asked and you failed ti answer, are you going to guarantee this solution to the OP? We�ve already heard of people that I�ve done this and gotten lucky. I recently tore down an M96 with an intermix issue. The IMSB was failing possibly due to the oil / water mix, and it could�ve been replaced with a factory bearing too. How long would it last? No telling. That engine became a core though. I�ve probably been a mechanic as long as you�ve been alive on cars, nuclear submarines, class 8 trucks, have 8 patents related specifically to the transportation industry, blah blah blah. My beef with you is that you think you know everything and one solution fits every case. The only thing that will teach you different is time. Sadly, I�ve learned some people never acquire the tact or wisdom to realize they don�t know it all ever.... you are well on your way. I�ve also been on the internet since the Usenet days, I have plenty of experience ID�ing a troll. I guarantee you will reply to this and spread your nonsense in any and all IMSB threads from now until...... ad nauseum. That�s classic trolling. Have fun, but I wouldn�t trust you to air up my tires properly. Luck and being a good mechanic having zero in common. You spend a lot of time here attacking good people, good mechanics, and pretty much anyone trying to be helpful. I don�t consider myself a good person or good mechanic, so need to troll there. I will probably never argue with you again though. Arguing with stupid people is not worth the time. They don�t ever realize their own limitations, just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. I just hope the OP doesn�t do a poor repair job and then experience something even worse. I personally would tear this entire engine down to the crankshaft, inspect everything, and then make and informed decision. Have fun with the trolling those with real failures though. It�s pretty macabre if you ask me.

Where are the "moderators" when you need them - what a useful thread...

Not sure if this is the best thread to add a question. When I was shopping about 2.5 years ago, I could have sworn that the LN ceramic bearing was not specified with a replacement interval, almost as if the bearing is good for the lifetime of the car. But then perhaps some months later, they came out with a recommended 75K miles replacement. Does anybody remember that better than I can? Thanks.

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Ditto! I've been off the forums for a while and come back to what appears to be a thread derailed. Ugh.

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Whoa, here Hoss. I mentioned that it could be done - with plenty of caveats. I'm not big on asplaining common sense stuff like all the steps to clean as much as possible before slapping a new bearing in there. I'm certain I did not mention anything about no metal made it out of the sump. I think I did mention changing to a LN no-bypass filter so none of the REMAINING bits/chunks in the sump would be circulated. That - is really, seriously not the same thing. BTW, my commentary was backed up by a gentleman who did exactly that, and is still happily driving on his saved engine. If you can't keep track, I wish to not be lumped in with the 'all of you's.

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WTF? Hey Cupcake, I highly recommend using the ignore feature to prevent further damage to your delicate sensibilities. As I've said before, I believe the joy most of us 996 owners get from these cars is inversely proportional to the amount of time spent reading the 996 section of RL...

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Your meds must have worn off, take a breather buddy. Read what I say, don't read what you want to read. I don't guarantee anything, I speak my mind and tell him about the very much viable alternatives and the do's and dont's when you go that route. I will repeat these possibilities ad nauseam for as long as the "20k rebuild and you're fine" is proposed ad nauseam. I don't give two you-know-whats about your experience. If I were actually a troll, then I must be the most successful one in the universe cause so far you've responded to every single thing I've said with the blistering rage of a thousand suns.

I miss the 996 forum

This is going to be a good thread to follow. Hoping the rebuild goes well. Take lost of pics.

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Me either,, I run what I got.. At this point this is all a reaction discussion about how to properly proactively respond to a known issue.. We can run/hide/attack/proactively replace.. But any choice has a potential opportunity cost.. <shug> The M96 is definitely the most talked about.. In my background,, checking the filter and sump are normal for any high performance engine.. Especially the first couple changes.. Its standard procedure for ANY engine running a coated Aluminum bore that I've worked on,, scoring and scuffing arn't new, neither are ball bearingsfailures.. My bike has a 100 HP 950 CC Twin thats a Alusil coated bore.. The bores hold up well, but the cam train/oil/water pump have their own gremlins. Twin cam lotus engines, similar story.. I do believe the design on the M96 is sub par,, mostly because they didn't pressure feed the IMSB from day 1.. Stupid stupid decision.. And if you think about it,, every high performance European car has had a WET filter just for the purpose of begin able to check it every time you change your oil. IE BMW/Porsch/Ferrari ,, the factory filter doesn't need cut its already a wet filter change.. I consider the kits with the adapter and can style filter kind of a americanization of the service effort.. <shrug> I don't believe most of the shrapnel gets circulated, its the self destructing bearing providing its own bullet to the brain.. Not sure if thats totally the story/reason ,, the IMSB is not at the bottom of the sump its actually in a area that gets mainly oil windage ,, One problem with the original sealed bearings is they are supplying their own debris ,, so its hard to tell which came first.. Chicken and egg problem,, Only way to tell would be to run and tear down the same engine at short intervals till you saw the degradation start and analyze the glitter.. Or put some kind of inspection port in where you could bore scope the bearing.. . Every Lycoming aircraft engine,, Since the 40's ( Any engine that runs at a 100% power level continuously) ​​​​​​​ Any large diesel. (I monitor care and feeding of some 2500 HP 12 Cylinder diesels.. ) First oil change they check the oils with a SCALE to see how many lbs of junk are in it.. Last one after its first 200 hours had like 5 lbs of metal in the pan. Any High performance gas engine making ~ 100 HP per Liter.. And or spins over 6K on a regular basis. I'm not arguing that the IMSB has design flaws ,, more looking at what the real flaw is.. I don't think Porsche was ever really forced to admit any RCA.. Especially from the engineering side.. My theory is under lubrication + a lube that had a short life + a design that allowed oil pressure against the seal and a poorly chosen bearing for one that needs both radial and thrust support. Something as simple as an oil spinner might have prevented many problems. I wish there was a big group of owners that simply did the pressure fed oil and seal removal from day 1,, now that would be interesting data.. I suspect th early fail rate would have been < 1% over the life of the engine as opposed to what we have now. FWIW my 2003 996 has 115K on it.. and I have no idea how many miles are on the IMSB, It had the clutch done at 60K.. in 20011.. I'm hoping they did a bearing at that time ,, but it likely was a stock one.. I consider it a dumb idea that now requires me to look at something occasionally and once in a while send in an oil sample.. Which I do on my Jeep as well, since its been warmed up enough to keep an eye on it so obviously I'm not in any panic,, just a realist.. It can happen, so if I keep an eye on it I can catch it before it goes TU.. Last thought,, all lawnmowers,, have a ball bearing on the bottom submerged in the sump oil.. My Honda is 25 years old, I change the oil annually.. mostly.. 3500 RPM's for thousands of hours.. Cheers!

Well, I got the old lump out: wf3A8WE.jpg I separated the engine and transmission and removed the pressure plate, clutch disk and flywheel. That's when I saw this: uvV0poI.jpg Gee, I guess the IMSB failed...

Best of luck whatever direction you choose to go.

Now thats an impressive pic,, was the bolt in there somewhere?

Wow! That is some serious carnage. Interesting to see that some of the ***** migrated through that hole... I guess you have your culprit!!

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Thanks I haven't found the rest of the bolt yet, I'm still trying to get the flange off, it's being a real bear, almost like it's cemented on.

You should be able to use a small pry bar or screwdrivers to lever it off. There are small indentations milled into the back of the flange for this purpose. See below for examples. LN flange: Stock flange:

Holy Crap! That's amazing. It is interesting that some of the ball bearings self ejected.

That is nuts, thanks for the update.

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Thanks for the pics, that helps. I tried screwdrivers, didn't work. I guess I need to go back to HF to get some pry bars... I spend so much money/time there I should own stock.

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I was a little shocked to see that myself. I'll try to keep updating this original thread as progress is made. I have and will create separate threads for specific issues/questions. ============= I have no information suggesting that the IMSB was replaced recently, but the clutch was done 10k ago and the flywheel has the name 'Adam' written on it in sharpie. I'm wondering if this is an installer error type situation.

I think the bolt is in that pile of ball bearings, sludge and snap rings on the bottom

Maybe I missed the update...are you still going with the used engine for now?

I don�t want to sidetrack your thread, but I�m interested in buying some duplicate parts you may have gotten with the junkyard motor you bought. Drop me a PM or reply to the thread. I can�t send PMs for some reason.

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Part of the bolt was still in the nut, the rest is MIA (at least until I get the flange off). Yes, I'm going to drive it with the used engine while I rebuild the original engine. I'm not sure I'd want to sell any duplicate parts since I'm going to rebuild the original engine. If I do I'll post them for sale in the Marketplace here. Also, you can't send a PM because you are a newbie, there's a post count minimum.

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Pfft, just run some 50Wt. It'll be fiiiiiiiiiine. Amazed it would run atall. Glad to hear you're gonna fix it up. Any perf upgrade mods planned?

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If the op doesn't have them, drop me a line. I have a full 3.4 parts motor that I'm willing to sell bits from for reasonable prices.

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Ouch! That's nasty! It's going to be an adventure to see what collateral damaged this causes to the other internal component of the engine. Please keep us updates with images as you go along.

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Pry bars don't seem to be working. Any other suggestions?

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I'd blast....

[QUOTE=Scott at Team Harco;16047365]I'd blast.... QUOTE] Get a bigger hammer!!

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You personally witnessed the engine running in that condition?!?!?!

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This is what I want to know too.. Though since the inner race normally tightly fits on the flange, the bolt is not the load-bearing part, so it is possible that the bearing was still aligned well enough for it to run, depending on how many ***** were left between the races. Those ***** you see will have exited the bearing into the IMS tube, bolt will have failed from the vibration/stress (fatigue) and from there onwards the only exit for the ***** is through the IMS flange hole. That would imply that the engine did indeed run for some time with the broken bolt. Interesting pics indeed.

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OP said in earlier post that prior owner started the car in front of him but he made him turn it off after brief period.

Interesting read....VERY interesting

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Since you will be completely disassembling the engine anyway, just wait till you separate the cases to remove the flange. The flange probably got "braded/flared" and is now larger than the extraction hole.Using excessive force to remove it will damage the case..

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So you're saying blasting, might not be the answer?

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lol... you saw that in one of Jakes video's, don't take everything you see in the video's as the best way !!!

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Like this??

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That's my favorite "Myth Busters" scene ever. Bet you didn't know you could make a cement mixer disappear...

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Yeah, that was awesome. The sound was incredible. I think that is about the only time I remember Jamie flinching!

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Yes, I did. But that was only an afterthought. There's no substitute for a classic punchline (as was delivered by Curly - out of view) in the reference image. Worth watching, but cut to about 11:10 to get the full effect... https://archive.org/details/TheThree...XDaBaron15m43s

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Exactly. You can bet that stuck bugger came out after that.

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...and pieces of the flange probably came down over 1/4 mile distant! Jamie want big boom.

I finally got the IMS Flange out, here's what I found. (pictures may be out of order, sorry). NeEuID9.jpg tssVj5E.jpg WMCJC5Q.jpg 3TPpZ9O.jpg Wq6df30.jpg NS0cYB7.jpg 2HLMd5k.jpg Hry09UZ.jpg OYNvpC9.jpg WYJVfeI.jpg IjJqMiU.jpg I suspect the IMS might be done for, I don't see a way to get the remains of the bearing out of it.

Quotes source post: 16066829

I suspect you are right. What a mess. The only way you'll get the rest out is to disassemble the engine completely. Then you may find more surprises...

It looks like the cams weren't locked at TDC and the chain tensioners weren't removed (hence the IMS was being pulled to the side/top) - that's why the flange wouldn't come out of the case... In any event, I think it's fair to say that the IMS would need a thorough check before being re-used

The reason the flange was difficult to remove was due to all the trauma the flange has seen from the IMSB failure. Tear it down, you'll be cleaning debris from the engine for days.

So how did the IMS bearing finally come out?

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This is why I became a member...such beautiful carnage. Keep on keepin' on

Hey, does anyone remember when I said there are some cars out there that have been saved before catastrophic failure, and maybe - just possible this might be a way to go? Well, uh - no. This one is catastrophic. Do over. Good luck and keep posting.

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I noticed these photos silenced all the IMSB issue is a hoax folks too. I feel pretty bad for the owner / OP but I�m thinking they may be determined enough to make this good.

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Just like the "Russian Hoax"

Press F to pay respects. F Press S to spit on the engineers who designed the IMS bearing S

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"Hype" does not equal "hoax"...reading is fundamental.

I just went back and re-read this entire thread for the 2nd time. I have zero mechanical experience but find the discussion fascinating. Now that its 100% certain from photos that the IMS bearing suffered failure, isn�t this the perfect opportunity to answer scientifically one argument that was hotly debated within this thread, namely: If the engine oil filter and bypass valve were good, I see no reason at all to take apart and rebuild the entire motor. On that premise, debris will not have made it to any critical parts of the engine. (unless you started it in arctic subzero temperatures with a broken IMS, and even then you'd only have a few seconds of dirty oil at most, after which the debris is rapidly flushed out). Has the filter or valve failed? Yes, rebuild, period. But the failure rates on these valves is not nearly as big as some (some that have quite an expensive solution to that 'issue' to sell, mind you, monetary incentive) would want you to believe. Were the filter and bypass value good? If yes, please follow up with photos when you do or don�t find that �any debris made it to critical parts of the engine�. If no, i guess the debate will continue to rage. Best of luck getting your car back on the road.

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Hype is very subjective just like Popeye's chicken sandwiches.

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If chick-fil-a sandwich is a base carrera, popeye�s is a turbo s. Its that good. Just my .02, lol

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Well, like a lot of you folks here on Rennlist, I have a shop manual and have spent countless hours looking at Porsche M96 crank case diagrams. Does that make me some kind of engine academic or "engine expert"??? Absolutely not... Far from it! However, I can't help but think that because of where the intermediate shaft/bearing is located, that when it fails and sheds metal, it will pollute and begin to damage all the vital internal components (crank shaft, pistons, journal bearings, etc.) with abrasive oil. That coupled with a high temperature, high stress environment where there are extremely tight running clearances, will give way to sever damage like what we have seen in some of these images and others that have been posted on this forum. And so, yes! I would love to see what the filter looks like. I would imagine it will be littered with metal contamination. But that's just my guess. p.s. now, I want to try the Popeye's chicken sandwich! Why? Cause I always dreamed of owning a Turbo S! lol

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There isn't any debate. Break out the tools. There is absolutely no doubt from those that have seen an engine failure (or many engine failures). This is an Internet keyboard argument that can't be won by speaking in hypotheticals.

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i'm not sure what your reply is saying? there isn't any debate/there is absolutely no doubt...what? that debris will or won't get into critical areas if filter/bypass hold? i have no axe or opinion on this matter at all, i was just pointing out that certain posts were adamant that debris couldn't get past the filter/bypass while others disagreed. now we potentially have the ability with this particular engine to get an answer to that debated question. its no longer a hypothetical, we have definitive IMSB failure, now did the debris get to critical parts or didnt it?

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Who is the beneficiary of these products being sold?

808Bill....those aren�t my words, i copied and pasted from an earlier post (boxman, i think). I�m just curious if we can use this engine to resolve the question once it is examined by the current owner as he rebuilds.

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This is just categorically false. Oil does not flow upstream. It just doesn't. Re-study those diagrams. In principle, all oil that reaches these vital components (crankshaft, pistons, journal bearings) passes the oil filter first . All of it. The only way for debris to make it to the critical components you mention, is when the oil filter or oil filter bypass failed, or when you start the engine in subzero conditions. Sump oil being contaminated does not mean these contaminants made it into the pressurized oil tract. Stop spreading this misinformation. I would very much welcome pictures of the critical components if the oil filter + bypass on this engine can be confirmed good. I second Optionman1's motion to settle this with empirical evidence from this engine. Pics of the state of the oil filter and bypass valve (and spring) are critical in this matter, let's hope OP is willing to provide.

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I wasn�t meaning to pick or start any fights, i�m just an observer who is trying to learn. I think very highly of this entire forum and all who contribute. My only complaint is the lack of civility in general. Personal insults and innuendo aren�t necessary, but in the modern internet age its all to common. I doubt if we were all gathered together in person discussing our love/knowledge of Porsches that the discussions would have the same tone. Now back to the show.....

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Pictures of the filter were already posted, here they are again: Attachment 1345333 Attachment 1345334 Attachment 1345335 UmRfFf5.jpg How do you propose I take pictures of the bypass valve and spring? Attachment 1345337 Regardless, since the outer race of the IMSB fused with the IMS, the engine has to come apart. I need to figure out if the original IMS can be machined, or if I need a new IMS. Attachment 1345338

I've had a couple counter-balance shafts done at a custom cam grinders in the past, unfortunately my guy retired and is somewhere on his sailboat.. May pay to check around in that industry.. The IMS shaft isnt made of anything that exotic.

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The bypass assembly should relatively easily pop out the bottom of the canister, if you manage to grab on with a pair of long-nosed tweezers. Unfortunately, if you cannot get the race out it indeed looks like you need an entire IMS replacement, which indeed means rebuild time.

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The chains act like conveyor belts, moving oil (and any debris) out to the head. That is why after an IMS bearing failure, it's common to see damage in the scavenge pump from that debris. And while the oil goes to the filter first (and why we came up with the spin on filter adapter with no bypass), the oil pump too sees any debris. You'd be amazed what can make it through the oil pickup screen. I'd have to find the picture, but one shop lost a chunk of the dual row internal wire lock and it made its way into the sump and up the oil pickup, causing severe damage to the oil pump.

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Teardown is the only option for replacement. That shaft will have to be replaced as typically the point of no return is when the circlip is no longer intact and clearly visible. Once it's that far gone, the sprocket ends up walking on the IMS tube and will have excess runout.

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Sure, some splash can be transfered to the head sprockets. Does that mean it makes it to the lifters, camshafts? No. Or to any bearing surfaces? Also no. This contaminated oil is washed out by the fresh continuous stream of oil from the pressurized feed to the camshafts and lifters. The contaminated oil will not flow upstream. Please let me know if you want to contest that point. I feel that whenever this point is made, one remains intentionally vague on where the contaminated oil >actually< ends up. If you want to be truly meticulous in case of recoverable IMSB failure, the heads can also be cleaned without rebuild by simply removing the cam covers. IMO it's not necessary. The oil pump(s) can be serviced without complete rebuild too, no biggie.

How about this...if your IMSB hand grenades and you don't think all that metal flake got throughout your engine; just change the bearing and report back every year how the engine is doing. If you have the same situation as above and you think all that metal flake did go through your engine; tear it down completely, clean it up, reassemble and report back yearly how the engine is doing. It will be a grand scientific experiment...

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If there is debris in the engine from a failure, and the stock filter arrangement is used, it will bypass and contaminate the engine. Oil moves/sloshes inside the engine - it's more than splash from the chains up towards the heads. Debris can and does get circulated around the engine. If that wasn't the case, how did this happen: You can never say never. There are no absolutes with any mechanical systems. I'm 100% against patching up any engine that has had some sort of failure that has generated foreign object debris. I'm not saying that you can't sometimes save an engine, but you have to weigh the costs and risks involved. From my standpoint, I don't want any of my products installed in an engine that has had a failure. If my product fails after it's been fitted, I'm the first person that is being called when the blame (and responsibility) lies with the installer.

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You mean that bolt didn't just splash up into the chain/sprocket? Your experience and even handed responses are much appreciated here

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I'm sorry for calling it what it is, Charles, but this quote is just bull****. The stock filter arrangement is full-flow. The bypass valve is a safety measure that only operates with a fully clogged filter or subzero temperature engine starts. Let me know if you want to contest that statement, and if you do, please specify when and how a nominal stock setup (so non-defective ) setup 'will' bypass. You present it as an inevitability while it is a highly situational low-probability event. Also, you need to be more careful with how you present things. When you say "contaminated oil will slosh and circulate", that last part will get taken out of context and before you know some certain enthusiasts on this forum will be screaming that the stock filter setup does nothing and contaminated oil is fed to your crank bearings unfiltered. Let's get you to say it on the record instead of this circumstantial 'evidence', because all this beating around the bush has to stop: Do you believe contaminated oil flows upstream towards any of the mentioned critical engine parts (bearing surfaces, pressurized lifters, cylinder liners), yes or no? I know you have corporate interest in your products not ending up in previously failed engines, and that is your good right. However, that does not mean you can just make statements that defy the laws of physics and present them as if they're facts. I also know you have your spin-on adapter to sell, but I have made this point before; the stock canister does not let contaminated oil bypass except under exceptional conditions. Show me an engine that had IMSB failure with a good working filter + canister, that exhibited debris-sanded bearing surfaces. Thanks for confirming this. I mentioned that before (somewhere in this thread, I believe) and I was declared insane for even suggesting that.

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I know what I have seen and has been confirmed by the hundreds of technicians we have trained over the years and validated by the shops we work with. I understand how the bypass is supposed to work, but it still doesn't change the fact that every engine that has had an ims bearing failure we've seen has glitter in the oil inlet into the engine that should be receiving clean, filtered oil. So I cannot honestly say that the filter will keep this debris from being ingested by the engine. The bypass works on differential pressures - if there is a large enough difference in pressure across the filter, like at start up, the bypass can open and does, even if for an infinitesimal amount of time. We use a filter with a bypass for IMS Solution and 9A1 applications with our spin on filter adapter, but the bypass isn't located at the bottom of the filter for this reason. It is up at the top by the anti-drain back valve.

user 63031, what is your background and experience with the m96? I'm just curious, you seem to know a lot about all this. Thanks!

If anyone thinks an oil filter of any kind is going to stop all debris from circulating through an engine that is failing due to mechanical debris, you are a damn idiot.

Oil laden with lightweight debris is largely responsible for the items with wear within these engines. This is especially true with the items that live solely from boundary layer protection for the protective oil film. Windage within these engines is a big problem, and this is why we see so many engines die from oil aeration. It's why the factory played around with profiling the bottom side of the cylinders in some engines, then went away from that, among other things. Timing chains are great conveyor belts to deliver debris, and debris laden oil from the root of the engine, out to each cylinder head. This debris is often sucked into the secondary oil scavenge pumps, causes them to seize, creating a scenario where their exhaust cam sprocket drive drive tangs fail. This results in the exhaust valve timing being retarded, crashing valves into pistons. Yes, I just documented another one of these failures this week, with a factory (new) engine with 20K miles on the clock since replacement. People can sit here all day long and argue about the things they have read, and the pictures they have seen, and how that gets processed through their brain housing group. Until they have first- hand experience with this engine internally, they don't have anything. I wonder how many people that sit here, and argue could assemble one of these engines on their own, and have it fire up without any issues, and not leak oil like the Exxon Valdez? I'd like to see. They are due physics, when they can't even hold a 10mm wrench properly. That said, I'm talking about the who are constantly questioning everything, and opposing the facts that we see everyday. Lots of forum members have built these engines, and have done a damn good job- ironically they are not the ones that spend their time arguing. Soon more people will be able to build these engines at home through my step- by- step video assembly video series. It looks like 12+ hours of edited content coming to you before the end of 2019! Words are cheap. Anyone can be a "Googlespert", or "Wikigenius".

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Hello? Can you hear me now? Anybody? Yeah, I didn't think so. Words are cheap... I know what I would do.

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I�d have to disagree Bill. Boxman is the typical engineer that wears a t-shirt saying he knows everything and is always right. That may also be his best quality. Boxman go buy the winning lotto ticket while you know it all and buy a Mezger engine GT2 so we no longer have to be inundated with your ill informed rants. This is the exact reason I feel bad for anyone working on and making M96/97 products for a living. You spend entirely too much time and effort on nonsense like this. No profit margin is worth this.

I'm not an engineer,, I don't even play one on TV,, But from literally hundreds of broken race engines I've worked on,, all different marques,, its amazing where shrapnel can end up.. I've found valve heads in the valve cover after a really big let-go.. NO idea how they got there.. they only have one path and they barely fit.. But when a sprint engine lets go at 10.5 K Rpm, it gets real. Same with the metal from various failed bearings,, The passage right after the oil filter should always be clean,, but lunch the mains at rpm and you'll find king size glitter .. <shrug>

Note: This msg is also cross-posted in the "Craigslist finds" thread. I just purchased a 2000 C4 Cabriolet w/90 miles on from a dealer it for only $15k just a few days ago. Found it on Craigslist. It's the cheapest 996 that I've seen in comparable condition in 5 years of looking. I bought it on the spot after a brief test drive. Clear title and clean vin search. NADA values the car at between $18-20k in my area. The lower than book price was a "red flag" but (as far as I can tell) it is in excellent condition both cosmetically and mechanically. According to the records, the clutch and IMS were replaced in Nov 2016. I will cut it loose quick if it starts to develop problems before it becomes a money pit. I really hope that doesn't happen because I took it on a 100 mile drive yesterday and just loved driving it. The C4 is the 6th car in my garage. On the sports car side, I also have a 2008 BMW 335i (which I bought 5 years ago) that people are wary of because of reported turbo/wastegate problems, just as people are wary of the 996 because of the reported IMS problems. Both cars are undervalued as a result. However, I have never had any mechanical problems w/my 335i and the only $ I've put into it (apart from ordinary service) was for cosmetic and mechanical mods that I wanted to spend $ on in order to make it look better to me and go faster. In addition to the 335i, I also have a 2002 Toyota MR2 Spyder that has never caused me any problems whatsoever in the 15 years that I've owned it. The only $ that I've spent on it has been for oil/filter changes, a couple of batteries and a few misc parts. The other cars in my garage include a 2017 Chevy Bolt EV, a 2012 MB ML350 SUV and a 2002 Ford F250 4x4 Longbed 7.3L Turbo Diesel. No significant problems w/any of these cars either. Here's hoping that my ownership experience w/the C4 is the same as it has been w/all of the other cars.

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I was trying to be polite.

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You are pretty polite Bill. Hope your car is running well. I haven�t heard or read much since your AoS problems. Work is insane right now.

My new used engine arrived today from Pride Auto Wrecking in California. The donor car had 50k miles on the odometer. Here are some photos of the engine. v5Jm2iG.jpg wa1CSIM.jpg uZZ06O4.jpg zEQ1RJF.jpg It's an AT (Austausch), so not the original engine. That means the engine has less miles than the car, but I don't think there's a way to know how many miles. It does have the larger IMS Flange nut. tFQs5MB.jpg The flange is really greasy, I hope it's not leaking... Could the grease be from a RMS leak? BFxGCk6.jpg I'll pull the flange off and check/remove the outer grease seal from the bearing this weekend. I'm also planning on bore scoping the cylinders. If everything checks out, I'm going to: replace the spark plugs and coil packs replace the fuel injectors replace the AOS replace the water pump replace the thermostat with a 160� replace the serpentine belt new MAF sensor Is there anything else that would be good to replace while the engine is out?

I'd say yes. Also recommended to change those 3 inside case bolts. Flywheel still good?

You have a nice trail from the RMS to pile of goop. Is the block leaking at that bolt? I�d consider the IMS solution if the engine checks out. It�s easy now.

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808Bill, is your 'yes' in response to my question if the grease is from a RMS leak? I have 2 good flywheels, 2 good pressure plates, and 2 good clutch disks, I'll use the set that has the least wear.

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It looks like the trail starts at the RMS itself, I may replace the case bolts anyway per 808Bill's suggestion. I suspect (due to the larger flange nut) that this IMS is the M97 variety with the larger bearing that is not field replaceable. If it's the M96 variety I'll definitely replace the IMSB with an IMSS.

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Correct. Just pull the grease seal on the bearing and call it a day. I have the same AT# with big bearing. May I ask what the motor cost from these guys? Do you have a Durametric?

Congrats on the larger more robust IMS bearing. I hope everything else checks out too.

Do you still have the car? I am in need of a 2002-2004 C2 that has a clean title but bad engine. Let me know thanks jason

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Start a new thread. There's a couple out there and I've seen a few on the Face Book marketplace.

What was the end result of this motor going in the car? Oh, and good to know M96/7 owners are not alone... You Tube

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You can't do the IMS Solution on a late large bearing car without splitting the cases. LN Recommends removing the bearing seal, if you're in there. Funny that they marked all the fasteners with a paint pen... Guess they want to make sure nothing is removed if it is returned? It looks like the IMS Flange seal and RMS may be leaking. Both are easy to replace. I use a 3d Printed tool from Chris(MA) for RMS seal seating. You will also seal the bolts and center shaft on the IMS when you reinstall them (as I recall, there are three different Loctite products involved).

I read that the engine number is a guide to use in determining if your car has the "bad" IMS bearing or the improved bearing. There are others saying that when the car was made matters too, early in the year vs. later in the year. Mine is an 05 S, 44K miles, runs GREAT ! How can I determine if my car was built early or late that year? Thank you !

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Cars and motors are not built at the same time. You can have a later car with an earlier built motor. There's a build date of your car on one of the black stickers under the hood or on the door jam (I forget)

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Under the door latch area of the driver's door

Hats off to you Andy for avoiding the fuss in your thread and carrying on with your project. Best of luck!