Ferrous Metal in Oil Filter

I just did an oil change after 3,500 miles and 5 months. This is my third change on this car and the last two were completely clean. It's a stock 1999 C2 and I've had it a little over a year. This time I noticed some small ferrous metal flakes on the filter. The difference this time is I did three 2 day HPDE driving events on the oil. I'm a beginner so I'm sure I wasn't pushing it as hard as someone with more experience would. So I'm wondering if this is a new situation developing or if I may have knocked some debris loose on the track. That or there were some oil starvation events during turns and this is the result. PO replaced the IMSB with an LN dual row about 10K miles ago. I doubt it's the IMSB. Camshafts? I'll check the deviation with a Durametric in the next few days. Every other time I've checked it's been 0%. I also sent the oil out to Speediagnostix. This will be my second sample to them. Magnetic drain plug - Burnt oil? The smudge on the top right is what came off the plug One of the most populated sections of metal flakes. Look in the creases Wider view of filter. Again, look in the creases This is the bulk of the metal I was able to pull off with a magnet

What oil were you using on the track? How many miles did the oil have when you went to the track the first time? I suppose both track days were on this same oil?

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It was Motul XCESS 8100 5W40. It only had ~700 miles on it on the first track day. I did 3 track events on the oil. The first one was my first track event ever and I was in the beginner (green) group on all 3 events.

Not good. This looks like a delimitation of the [crankshaft] main bearings to me, or wear of the crankshaft end thrust shims.

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Oh man. Is there a way to verify or narrow this down without taking the engine apart? Is there a downside to running it a few hundred or a thousand miles and checking again?

The next thing that needs to be done is sump plate removal, and inspection, before you even put oil back into it..

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I'm no expert, but looking at the color of those flakes, I'd venture the answer is *no* Again, noting my lack of expertise on this subject, I'd also speculate that at this point, running this engine any further will result in catastrophic damage that *can* be potentially avoided with a full tear down now. My opinion (and take it for the lack of value it has): stop running this engine and get someone with experience to help you with a teardown to replace some bearings that are now fast wearing. You may be able to save the crank, carrier and associated core parts before it is too late. Best of luck to you and sorry if this is a downer.

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I figured I would drop the oil pan but wasn't sure how long (if at all) to run it for first. I had already put oil in it and ran it around the block once before discovering the flakes. The uncut filter looked clean.

I’ve been where you are. Deep breaths. Since you’ve already refilled with oil and run, maybe try pulling the filter again (you can pull the filter without draining all the oil) and have another look. This was my filter a few years back. Material was ferrous. After a fairly extensive exploratory search, it turned out to be my IMSB (which had been swapped for an LN bearing by previous owner). Before the boo-birds jump in and start dumping on LN, there is no way I can confirm how the bearing was installed, handled or treated, so I can’t blame the bearing or LN. For all I know the bearing had been dropped on the floor before installing. Charles from LN was extremely helpful in helping to diagnose mine. Standup guy in my books. I am curious about the main bearing and/or thrust shims...ferrous? I would have assumed these were other non-ferrous materials, but have never seen these in person.

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The bearings have a ferrous (steel) backing plate that's plated with a copper flash and then layered with a "white metal" surface that is actually presented to the crankshaft. "White metal" used to be a lead-tin concoction, newer formulas may have changed to any number of similar metals. The important thing is that the "white metal" is softer than the steel of the crankshaft. The trouble happens when the white metal wears off or melts off the backing plate. Then you have steel to steel contact from the backing plate to the crankshaft. This can quickly score the crank, which is not regrindable in the M96. The white metal can wear quickly if oil is interrupted with the engine under load, and with it's melting temperature somewhere around 500F it can melt and run out of the bearing space if overheated. The secondary trouble happens because the loss of the white metal increases the bearing clearances. If this happens on a main bearing, the rod bearing that is fed from that main bearing is starved for oil and will quickly fail. DeJeeper's engine failed this way.

It should also be said that u r not the only one to see this and there may still be years of street driving on yout motor. Mine had 200k in the clock and i firmly believe i could have got many more had i not been driving at 7k one the track. I would think u are fine to drive around and monitor the oil pressue but u may want to lay off the track until u get more info. Some of us r currently trying to test oil pressure drop in another thread. There still is no commercially available solution to the internal decay of our motors due to pressure drop but there r things u can due to help limit the damage. Race oil with frequent changes and keeping oil temps down r both important.

Thanks for the explanation! That makes perfect sense. Much appreciated.

If it were me, I would open a ticket at Flat6Innovations and ask all your questions there. Even if you don't ultimately have them rebuild your engine, you can pay for consulting, which is probably worth more than it's weight in gold! The paid consulting is something that they offer that more people should take advantage of, IMHO! Asking here for free is a good first step, but the next best step is to pay for their expertise.

Material is coming from somewhere.....been there,a member on this board has my old crank (paperweight). I feel your pain.

Again.. Pull the sump plate, document what you find in the floor of the sump. This is THE FIRST step to diagnosing any internal issue with these engines. The sump plate is a window to the soul of the engine. You need a 10mm socket, ratchet and a large screwdriver or pry bar to remove it. This will take you less than 30 minutes, even if you are slow. My 9 year old daughter pulled one last week in 11 minutes by herself, but she's done it before.

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Good idea. I'll most likely do that.

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What are your daughter's rates? I'm going to pull the pan but it probably won't be until the weekend. I was already thinking I wanted to do that sometime in the next year anyway. I need to get the old oil out of my drain pan to make room for the new and buy the goop to re-seal the pan. Might as well clean it too while it's off. I may open a ticket.

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Ava charges more than I do, but she does crawl around under 911s easier than I do. Post some pics of what you find here.. No need to set up a ticket at this point, I'll try to stay tuned to the thread. The tickets have been bombarding me for the past 3 weeks, anyway..

Thanks for all the advice so far. I'll wait for the UOA, pull the pan this weekend and take more pictures & probably open a ticket with FSI for advice. At 45K miles, LN IMSB installed by the previous owner and 4 oil filter inspections showing absolutely no flakes a teardown or rebuild wasn't something I was expecting at this point. Especially not one year in. Sounds like the best case scenario is the replacement IMSB failed but I doubt it. Next would be cam lobes. I saw that in another thread. Jake thinks it might be the crankshaft and he knows his stuff. I hope it's not that because that's basically a full rebuild. It'll be interesting to see what I find in the pan. I think anything in there would be relatively heavy. I put cheese cloth over the drain pan when I'm draining the oil and there was nothing on it. So I know nothing big came out of the pan.

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Do not start it again!

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The cheese cloth trick is a good one.. That one is old school, where did you learn it?

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I learned it by realizing a coffee filter was way too restrictive and having 10 year old cheese cloth in my kitchen that I'd use for cooking exactly once!

Oil pan is spotless. So that's a good sign. I couldn't find a single speck of metal or even plastic from the variocam adjusters.

Mine was the same. I then opened the swirl pots (block canisters seen in pic). I believe it was Jake that suggested these are the “window into the sole of the heads”. Easy to pop open.

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Hmmm. OK. Just remove the bolt that's holding it on?

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As I remember, yes. Once in hand you will see it turns a 1/8 turn to unlock and open. My limited understanding is that the oil being recirculated back to sump from heads via scavenge pumps goes into these chambers to settle slightly and minimize foaming, before being dumped back into sump. Theory is any fragments will settle to bottom of these little pots.

Note: once these swirl pots are disassembled they can�t just be clipped back together. You must drill a hole at the point where they fit together, and either rivet, or safety wire them tightly together. if these separate, you will ha e an instant failure on the track, and it�ll take longer on the street. I lost a test engine in 2008 when one of these separated. It lasted 1/2 lap at Road Atlanta with the swirl pot separated.

Can u get a borescope in the swirl pots? Disassemble sounds dangerous 😎

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No.

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Good idea. I have a scope and can give it a shot. I can even play with scoping the cylinders while I'm laying there. The focal length on the scope might not be short enough to see metal flakes in the swirl pots that close up but I can try.

Isnt the swirl pot #4 for $37.50?

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Good to know. I'll get some wire.

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I thought about that route too (I don't completely trust myself to put it back together right). They were $55 at Pelican.

You can easily put them back together, you just have to do the task using a secondary fastener since originally these have a melted plastic tab that holds them together. To get them apart the melted tab must be broken. We have seen these melted tabs break, the swirl pots separate, and lead to heavy aeration of the oil, and engine failure on the track. Due to this even on brand new units Iutilize a rivet, or safety wire to add a secondary means of fastening, just to be safe on all Stage II engines. When you remove the sump plate, and find 1/2 of a swirl pot after a failure, you've just diagnosed the underlying condition that led to it.

Swirl pots are clear. I took the bottoms off and left them upside down over a coffee filter for 10 minutes or so. No flakes. In the pics it might look like there are metal specks. I checked them, they're not metal. I wasn't in the mood to mess with the borescope. Maybe tomorrow. I drilled the holes in the tabs on the side of the pots and will grab some safety wire tomorrow along with a soft metal brush to help clean the bottom of the sump plate. Was there a stock color for the sump plate sealant? I saw in a video the stuff Porsche sells now is black. The stuff that was on there was brown. Just wondering if it's ever been off.

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I know LN won�t guarantee or recommend replacing a bearing that has already failed. So what did you do? Did you have to rebuild your engine to get the bearing replaced?

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After much deliberation and many back and forth with Charles, I replaced the bearing with a new LN Single Row Retrofit (which is double row). That was winter 2017, and 25,000 miles later, all good. Once I finally resigned myself to pulling the transmission and checking the IMSB, it was obvious this was my issue. Bearing felt slightly rough, but had some definite play in it.

I got the swirl pots put together, wired up and back in. After that I tried playing with the borescope a bit. It’s my first time using it here. It’d been a while since I looked at cylinder numbering and I though 6 was right rear so that’s where I was focusing. I just looked it up and it’s actually right front. Anyway, I thought people might find them interesting and I have some questions. This is basically looking straight up from the center of the oil sump on the right hand side. I'm not sure what this is but there is definitely some wear here. Does anyone know if this looks normal? Cylinder 4 is on the right. See the little silver fleck in the middle of the picture just outside of cylinder 4? I'm trying to figure out if this is a piece of metal. Bottom of piston #4. Entertainment purposes only.

This is what I thought would be easy, but not so, at least without some direction or practice. Trying to look at the cylinder walls for me was tough from the pan up. I think my bore scope is small enough in diameter and certainly long enough, but I had a tough time getting a good enough look to to feel absolutely certain I didn�t have scoring.

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Do you have a pic of how you wired the pots?

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Here's one. I took a picture of each after I put them back in. You can see the wire on the tab just above where the bottom and top halves meet:

I did a little more looking around with the endoscope yesterday and found a few things that look troubling. I'm not 100% sure if I'm looking at what I think I'm looking at though. I'm hoping someone can confirm my suspicions or tell me I'm seeing the wrong things. I went through the right side of the oil sump between cylinders 4 and 5 and mostly straight up past the cylinders themselves and towards the top of the crankcase. (I also got some pics inside #5 but that doesn't matter here). This appears to be the inside of the top of the bearing case with what look to be some pretty bad wear marks. It also looks like the crankcase might be cracked above it: Tube (bolt?) near the top of the crankcase with metal flakes. When I took the picture they looked like they might be air bubbles in the oil but now that I look at the picture blown up, I'm pretty sure they're metal: Any ideas? Am I seeing what I think I'm seeing?

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What you are seeing is cost cutting in the flesh. These deficiencies are normal, and expected. I see nothing here to be concerned with-

Thank you for looking at it Jake. That's a big load off. It looked bad to me. I'll wait for the UOA to come back around the end of the week and see what that says. There was nothing in the filter during the PPI a year ago and the first two oil changes without any track use. This change was 3,500 miles of use including 3 trips to the track. They were my first ever track events and I was doing DE so I didn't think I was taxing the car too hard (I'm just not that good). I'm wondering about the possibility of this being a one time event that happened at the track. My last session, I spun out and ended up slowly going backwards into the dirt while it was still in gear (forgot to put the clutch in). After talking to the instructor about it he said that could do bad things to the engine. It's had 300-400 miles on it since then. Depending on what the UOA says, I'm thinking I might look at the filter that I put 6 miles on, put a new filter in and drive it another 30 miles or so and see if I'm still getting metal in there. If not, I can increase the intervals and keep an eye on it. If so, I guess it's time to take it to my indy and have them start investigating.

I got the UOA back today. The viscosity and oxidation were low which is probably to be expected after using it on the track 3 times (lesson learned). Other than that, nothing looks alarming to me. One note, the total wear metals value of the previous sample is wrong (should be 6.8). Anything I should be concerned about? I know Jake says that this is mostly for trending and only tiny pieces of metal can be found in the UOA. Since previous oil filters were clean and the sump/swirl pots were clean I'm wondering if this could have been a one time event on the track. Can that happen? I did spin out and roll backwards for a bit without putting the clutch in. I heard that can be bad for the engine. So the question is, what next? Rather than have someone tear the engine apart I'm inclined to put oil back in it, drive it for another 50 miles or so and check the filter again to see if this is continuing. I don't want to risk more serious engine damage but I also don't want to spend thousands on taking the engine out and possibly splitting the case until I know this is ongoing. So, to sum up: 1999 C2, 45K total miles on original engine. Had it for a year. Filter check on PPI was good and my last two filter checks were good too. Small ferrous metal flakes were found in the oil filter this last change after 3,500 miles and 3 DE track events. PO had IMSB replaced with LN dual row ~3 years & 10K miles ago. I saw the original bearing and it looked & felt good. It didn't wobble but did come to a stop quickly rather than taking several seconds to spin down. Not sure if that is normal or not.

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Have you had the oil sump plate off recently, or used any RTV sealant anywhere on the engine in the last 2 oil services?

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No. The sump plate is off now but that's the first time. I assume you're referring to the high silicon value in the first sample? Over the past year I've changed the plugs/coils/tubes, water pump, thermostat and coolant tank. But nothing that required sealant. I also had an indy do the brake fluid and fuel filter.

In that case I see iron elevated, as well as silicon together. Iron is the rings, and ferro coating on the piston skirts; silicon is the bores. Viscosity is low, oxidation is high. Aluminum isn't high yet, so this has likely not progressed super far as of yet.

Thanks Jake. Would that explain the metal in the oil filter as well? Is there a possibility that the metal was caused by something at the track (spin out or oil starvation) or is that something that doesn't really happen?

I'm interested though.. The LN dual row was installed when the engine qualified / no debris, good condition, right? But Jake also says you also can't ever, under any circumstance, install an LN IMSB in a car with debris-laden oil. He's said this on numerous occasions. So... since metallic debris has now been found in the oil and filter, I guess that would mean the LN IMSB is at great risk and the LN bearing will fail sooner than later unless the engine comes apart and is ultrasonically cleaned? So the LN bearing is now the most at-risk part in the engine?

The bearing was installed under a previous owner. He did not tell me which shop installed it. As far as I know there is only one LN approved shop in southern California and they are in LA so I doubt it was an LN approved shop. I don't know how the engine was qualified. It was checked for camshaft deviation at the PPI and I've checked several times since and it was solid at 0% The car has had a PPI and two oil changes since I've had it and no metal until this one. I have his receipt for the new bearing and he showed me the original one. It seemed fine. It spun and there was no wobble. Judging by the date of purchase of the new bearing and CarFax reports I'd say it's been 10-15K miles & 4 years since it was installed. From all this I'd say that the old bearing was fine and there was no issue when the new LN was put in. Of course I wasn't there so I can't guarantee that. I've heard similar things said about having a clean engine with no bearing failure before putting a new one in or LN won't guarantee the new one. I think the most at risk part is whatever is causing the metal. That could be the crankshaft, cams or IMSB. I'm hoping my indy can take a look at it this week and we can start the elimination process.

I understand. Normally I'd agree, but Jake has confirmed the LN Retrofit does not survive in debris laden oil. It is a bearing without seal, it is lubricated by sump oil directly. Which means it will have seen the metallic debris and is likely already damaged by it. I think it would be the first to go, tbh. Even if your engine previously passed qualification and was pristine, having any part in your engine shed metal means your Retrofit is no longer safe to use. Jake will not warranty it anymore either. If you want to keep using an LN product, you're looking at a partial rebuild since this engine no longer passes qualification. Or you source a sealed bearing kit so you don't have to worry about it and can focus on the thing that is shedding metal. Like jake said, the issue is not far progressed yet, likely just due to your track day. I'd monitor it after a few oil changes and see if the shedding stops. If not, you'll have more work to do. It's just a shame that the Retrofit is so vulnerable that if anything else in the car has a problem, you're also looking at an expensive IMSB repair on top.

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Even a blind man can see your intent here. Spin it however you�d like.

Tell me where I am wrong? Yes, the intent is crystal clear. Yes, I have called the Retrofit a glass bearing before. We're looking at a real use case scenario here - tell me where I am wrong about your bearing not surviving debris laden oil?

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Where you are wrong lies in the perception of the pre- qualification procedure. From day one the pre- qualification procedure was done to determine if the engine was healthy enough to have the money spent for IMS Retrofit. The true intent of this is to ensure that the owner of the vehicle will receive an adequate return on their investment in IMS Retrofit. This applies to the engine as a whole. An example is a 5 chain engine that has camshaft deviations greater than 6 degrees, and only has oil laden with material from chain guides, which is not metal, and poses zero threat to the IMSB or any other component from debris laden oil. This is due to the material that is shed by these components in the stages before the chain rails fail completely. These deviations are a sign that the engine has underlying issues and will not have a positive return on investment for the owner, without further invasive work being carried out. In this case, the engine fails pre- qualification, and the IMS Retrofit procedure is not carried out. In this case the owner saves the money to address the more immediate concern, and condition that was noted during the invasive inspection portion of the pre- qualification. This is exactly like a �pre-op� for a human before going under anesthesia for one procedure to be performed. The idea is to keep the patient from dying on the table. In this case it is for the engine to live the longest life possible, providing a better return on investment. If someone wants an IMS product that does not see direct negative effects from debris laden oil, they choose the IMS Solution, which fed solely with just filtered oil, directly from the SPOFA. That said, debris laden oil has a negative impact, and will shorten the life of every internal engine component that lives from boundary layer oil protection. It may fit your narrative to specifically target the IMS Bearing, but everything else sees the same collateral damages equally.

Alright, but regardless of the intent of the pre-qual (IMO to set stringent warranty conditions), you agree my other notions are accurate. That the IMS Retrofit will not survive metallic debris in the sump oil. That the topicstarter in this topic is now at risk for failure of the LN Retrofit bearing, even if the engine was pristine before the Retrofit went in. That even if topicstarter addresses or stops current wear, the LN Retrofit is now likely to fail since it has been used in metallic-debris laden oil. I will tell you where you are wrong; Categorically false, and you know it. All critical engine parts are lubricated by filtered oil , which the only exception being the LN Retrofit which is lubricated by sump oil, unfiltered, laden with these tiny metallic particles . The LN Retrofit is now contaminated. Unless his filter or bypass-valve is broken, all critical wear components see filtered oil. There is zero base to your claim that all other components are equally affected. My narrative is indeed heavily based in the fact that the LN retrofit sits in dirty sump-oil without any seal. You may not want to admit that your product has any weaknesses, I know it's bad press, but this is a glaringly obvious one. It is our duty but also yours to warn people like him that his IMSB is now at risk and could destroy his entire engine. Even if his metallic shedding was a one-off event from track-use with bad oil and does not significantly progress further after an oil change, he will now have to address his IMSB and we should make him aware of that before the engine grenades.

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No, the entire engine will see a global impact of debris laden oil. As an example, cylinders and pistons only see splash oil, and are subject to boundary layer oil protection only. The bores will be the very first thing that sees damage from debris laden oil. ”all critical wear components” do not see filtered oil. This is one reason that we see bore scoring occur as collateral damage, as well as a primary failure. Further, the wear debris is being generated somewhere, and every ounce of previously filtered oil beyond this point in a given system will see collateral damage from the wear debris generation. Case in point: I see engines die from main bearing wear all the time. As the #1 main bearing wears, it is being fed with clean, filtered oil. The wear creates debris laden oil at this main bearing, that is then fed with oil pressure (amplified by centrifugal force) to the #6 connecting rod bearing. This debris laden oil will then instantly contaminate the oil supply for this bearing, generating wear, ultimately resulting in a failure of the #6 connecting rod bearing. In that case, the rod bearing was further downstream from the source of the first wear debris, and the fact that the oil was previously “filtered” makes no difference at all. The #6 rod bearing derives it’s lubrication from the #1 main bearing. In this case most people would say that the engine died from a rod bearing failure, when the engine really had a primary failure of the main bearing, and a secondary failure of the rod bearing. This is just one case that is easy to use to help convey the point. Perhaps your limited experience with these engines (and clearly engines in general) is driving your inability to comprehend this. You are hearing what you want, in order to form your reply, to prove a point that you don’t even understand yourself. In short, if the engine has ferromagnetic debris laden oil, the owner has a bigger problem than the IMS Bearing to worry about. All components that see boundary layer oil protection have already been exposed to less- than-favorable- conditions.

I was waiting for the first ad-hominem, guess I didn't have to wait long. Unnecessary, but not entirely unexpected. So you mean to say that you believe the cylinder walls and pistons are lubricated by splash from the sump? Am I understanding your comment correctly? Just verifying before I say anything about that. I am contesting your initial notion that >all< other critical wear components see >equal< wear from metallic debris in the sump. You already toned it down to "globally it will have an impact" and "less than favorable conditions", hat off to you my friend. You say it yourself; when a piece of debris lodges free from a wear part, it will flow with the oil to the sump and in that journey will have one (1) chance to do damage along the way until it reaches the sump. Debris-laden oil can only come there directly from upstream damage, not from fresh oil out of the oil filter. Once the debris reaches the sump - a very chaotic body of fluid - that same piece of debris may pass the IMSB that literally sits below sump oil-level upwards of 10's, 100's, maybe even 1000's of times before it is being picked up by the oil pump and finally ending up lodged in the filter. That is 10 to 1000x more exposure to the same debris than those parts that you claim 'wear equally'. The IMSB will see more wear from any piece of metallic debris than any other critical-wear part unless your oil filter is literally broken, and once a nucleation site of damage is created on an un-sealed ball-bearing, there is no more stopping it.

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https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_In...101-018-51-OEM

“Piston squirters” are only partially responsible for cylinder and piston lubrication. This is made very clear when we eliminate them from the engine entirely. Since user 63031 is clearly here to argue, I have nothing more to say in regard to addressing his points. I will continue to assist the OP and add information to the thread that can be beneficial to him.

That's not an answer, is it? Am I correct in understanding that you say the cylinders and pistons are lubricated by sump splash oil? Anyway, regardless, I'm here to warn the topicstarter for a failing LN Retrofit IMSB. I see you won't address my questions, probably for good reason (it wouldn't be in your best interests), but you also have not defended your bearing this time. While you usually are extremely verbose in defending your products, I find it interesting that you choose the cop-out this time. Especially when a forumgoer is actually at risk of critical engine failure. I dare you to state it will be okay in this engine. It won't. It has to come out because it will grenade the engine even if OP's shedding of metal was a one-off. You can't go on record saying the Retrofit would survive mild metallic debris in the oil, and you know it. Regardless of all the miracles in the world regarding where his metal came from, the LN Retrofit with certainty is no longer fit for duty in this car .

Blowing the whistle here!!! EVERYONE will be taking a break on this topic while we sort this out. Meanwhile, everyone - please step back and cool off.

@ssherman68 5 years later....what did you end up doing?

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See the update here: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...er-update.html