The dangers of buying a roller

Seeing the post from someone wanting to buy a roller prompted this long post. I'm posting some honest and real world numbers and experiences so others may learn from my experiences. Please save the, “You could have bought a C4S for that kind of money” or other Captain Obvious comments................................ We often talk on this forum about all 996’s being a $25k plus car. Many people come on the forum and ask for opinions, advice, etc. and we throw out this number as a “rule of thumb”. However, very few people actually share real world numbers. I’m going to share my experiences on the two 996’s I currently own and the costs associated with them. I grant that you could save some money doing the work yourself. However, in the end you will still be in the same ballpark as my two cars. Let me preface this by saying that I have owned MANY Porsches (both water and air cooled) and, while I prefer air cooled cars and still own several, I have a soft spot for the 996…especially the ’99 models. I have turned a wrench on almost all of them to varying levels including rebuilding a 914 Type IV engine and a couple transmissions. So, while performing mechanical work does not intimidate me; I find that I am frequently limited on either time and/or motivation. So, if I want a project done, it’s better for me to pay someone and get the car to the point that I can enjoy it than for the car to sit around. The only work I won’t do is paint and bodywork. I am honest enough to admit that I have no talent for that line of work. So, let’s get to the cars…… Car Number 1 is typical of what most people look for and can expect. It’s a 1999 with 106k miles. The car is Guards Red with a black interior and a 6 speed MT. The car lived much of its life in warm climates (I bought the car from California). The car does not have many options. Paint is original (front bumper may have been painted) and car has not been hit. Everything works and there are no electrical issues such as burned out pixels. Before I purchased the car, it had a new clutch/pressure plate and flywheel installed. It also had a new Porsche coolant tank installed. I had a PPI done (NOT bore scoped but the pan was dropped) and the car checked out. Most significant issues were worn tires, worn out brakes and the car had a 7-year-old replacement LN IMS bearing. Once I decided to buy the car, I had a the shop who did the PPI (very reputable shop based on feedback I found on here and other venues) install the IMS Solution, replace timing chain tensioners, new RMS, new AOS and miscellaneous seals and things like new flywheel bolts and such plus a 4 wheel alignment. So, what do I have invested in this car? Purchase price - $12,000 + $535 SC sales tax and tag transfer Enclosed shipping to South Carolina - $1500 New Michelin Pilot Sports - $1100 Nice set of 18” turbo twists to replace the badly curbed original 17” wheels - $400 IMS Solution and other work performed by the shop - $5133 New motor mounts (I did the labor) -$189 New brakes parts (I did the labor) - $600 Grand total: $21,455 The car runs and drives great. However, it still needs a good detailing (clay bar, polishing, etc), new center and rear underbody trays, and a few other odds and ends. So, in round numbers once done I’ll have $22,000 in this car. Car number 2 is the money pit. Make no mistake, this is a lesson for anyone is who is contemplating a Porsche 996. Especially, those looking for a roller. In May 2017 I took Jake Raby’s M96 engine rebuild class (excellent class, BTW) and came out eager to try out my new found knowledge. I was eager to buy a roller and looked everywhere but had no luck finding one I wanted. I finally happened on a white/tan ’99 996 with around 130K miles that had an intermix issue. The car had original paint and some options I liked (leather dash/door cards, the factory high end radio, supple leather seats). I REALLY REALLY like the 996 in white and fell in love (first mistake…falling in love with a specific car) The seller was nice enough but didn’t know much about the 996. He had the car a year or two and I could tell he really struggled to afford the car. In fact, he had a loan on the car. When the engine blew that was it. He couldn’t afford to fix it so the car had been sitting. (second mistake…buying a car from a person who couldn’t afford to maintain it) I made a deal to buy the car. I paid more than I should have. But, it was a white 996 and being flush with all this new knowledge figured a bundle could be saved by turning the wrench myself. However, knowing that the engine rebuild would take some time, I decided to buy a used engine to put in the car and use until the original engine was rebuilt (third mistake….buying yet another unproven mechanical contrivance) All this happened in 2017. Right after this was done, the company I work for was sold. My travel requirements for work increased and I found I had even less time than before. Everything sat until 2019 when I decided to get the car back on the road. (fourth mistake….letting things sit. time is not a friend to mechanical devices). I found someone to put in the used engine for me. Several issues were encountered during the engine replacement including rusted out mufflers plus other things I’m forgetting at the moment. I had a new coolant tank, AOS, coil packs and other parts for the car so those were replaced. Fortunately, the clutch was fairly new and the engine had LN IMS bearing (albeit the bearing was over 5 years old at that point). So, when all was said and done the car was running and driving (although with CEL codes). The installer did everything we agreed to and more. Resolving CEL codes was not part of the scope of work. I was happy with the work done and excited to bring the car home. So, the car arrives home and I take my first drive. The engine runs pretty good but seems a little rough. More concerning, however, was the transmission. As the transmission warmed up, it got progressively harder to shift gears. After about 10 miles (farthest the car had been driven since 2017) 3rd gear would not engage without force. And, when it did, it would pop out. Of course, when you buy a roller there’s no way to test for such things [fourth mistake (related to third)….buying an untested roller]. At this point it’s one of those, “in for a penny, in for a pound” deals so I take it to a well known shop to get the transmission replaced with a rebuilt unit I bought from GBox. While it’s there, I ask the mechanic to see if the engine is worth putting any more money into it. After a thorough check (leakdown, bore scope, etc.) the news is good. The engine is solid! The bad news is one cam actuator is bad (possibly from sitting so long…who knows?) and there's some leaks including RMS. So, I have them pull the engine with the transmission to fix what is causing the CEL codes and also put in an IMS Solution (since the LN bearing in there is EOL). After all was done, the car was still throwing random CEL codes. They check the DME and a part of the DME is fried. The DME was sent off for repair and as of yesterday the car is ready to come home. The mechanic has driven the car 50+ miles and assures me the engine pulls strong and the new transmission is a joy. What is the final cost of this “deal of a roller”? Well, here you go…. Car - $7500 + $335 SC tax and tag transfer Transportation - $800 Used engine (with shippng) - $7900 First engine install plus miscellaneous parts - $3500 GBox Transmission (with shipping ) - $3400 New IMS Solution, transmission replacement, engine work, etc - $9052 New Michelin Pilot Sports - $1100 New brakes (I did the labor) - $600 Grand total - $33,197 What does the car need? Well, assuming the car runs and drives as it should the only remaining issue is the front seats need recovering. Looks like a supple leather kit for both seats will run around $1500. Hopefully, that’s it! Lessons learned: 1. Never buy a roller unless you know the car or have the time and money to do all the work yourself. There’s no way to test the transmission, HVAC or other similar system without the car running. 2. You can save some money by doing the work yourself. But, parts are expensive. You aren’t going to save that much in the end. 3. Buy the best car you can afford. Period. 4. Have a thorough PPI performed. Money spent on the front end can save you big later. 5. Would I do it again? Maybe. The first car is very typical and is what almost .every 996 owner will face at some point. I’m not sure on the second car. Although, my approach may have been different (maybe go with FSI at the beginning? Buy a Porsche shortblock?) I really don’t know. If the car needs nothing else for 100k+ miles going forward I’ll be okay. But, if it needs any more work it's going to get ugly. So, there you have it. Hopefully, my story will help some make an informed decision. It's not meant to be a tale of woe. I'm not upset about what has transpired. Instead, I hope to shed light on what ownership really costs. Some may get lucky and find a deal. But, for most of us, this is how 996 ownership looks (or will look).

Billh1963, Wow, that was an excellent read! Never personally been in your position with the limited time and the roller, but I applaud your perseverance in taking both of those cars to the finish line. The 1st car was a nice find at a sweet price in the first place and the final number is in line with the car in it's current state with most of the important stuff done. The 2nd car is where the roller bites the hand that rescues it, who could have expected the Spanish Inquisition?, uh, I mean the roached transmission? And the CEL's with the used engine? I might have been inclined to diagnose and repair the original engine's intermix condition, and avoid the additional cost of the used engine. I just did this recently on my 99' C2 Cab and got it all done for less that $2K, but took my time and did all the work myself. I suspect you may be understating the benefit of doing all the work yourself vs. paying shop labor rates on both cars, but your work situation dictated that for you. Any way, again, great read, thanks for posting this.

Awesome write-up, Bill, thanks for taking the time for this. Serious question - why did/do you want two 99 996s at the same time? Or perhaps you wanted to sell the red one after you got the white one in order?

Love to see posts with financial details. I'd agree that rollers and stand-alone can be a very risky purchase and the price should reflect your confidence in its quality - much of that comes from how much you can trust the current owner. Here's the detail of my black 2000 cab with 90k miles last year: Purchased for $10.5k, no PPI. He only had receipts for a swapped in used motor in 2017 with 40k miles, new cheap rear tires, and a new battery. It was risky and more-so because of my lack of knowledge on these cars. I saw some oil leaks on my inspection and blown convertible top cylinders but missed blown shocks and cam deviation out of spec (wear pads). I dropped the engine and did all the work myself including AOS/WP/RMS/Dual Row LN Ceramic IMSB/Wear pads/Motor Mounts/MAF/O2 Sensors/Trans Mount/Coilovers. All said and done I spent $17682 on the endevour. That includes $300 of insurance, $700 tax/registration, $500 durametric pro and $200 IMS tool kit. Of course if you've followed my posts at all you know that I wrecked the car last August, bought it back from insurance and sold it to a dismantler with the net results being I about broke even. My wife would disagree as I spent many nights and weekends working on the car last year while she was watching the kids. This time around, I'm coming in as an informed buyer who can judge the value of already completed work against the effort and cost of having done it already myself - and that's exactly why I have been looking for something that's had a reputably replaced engine (Porsche or brand name builder). It seems the market vastly undervalues these in relation to the amount of reduction in gross failure risk (IMS/Chain failure/scoring/rod bearings) and run/maintain cost of general wear items (coils/injectors/AOS/WP/etc).

Bill, I'm a slow learner and have experienced similar results with a variety of projects. Fix the engine, then find out that the ABS and Airbag lights are on, and the AC doesn't work. Getting better in my older age with this, though. I bought my 997 C4 as a quasi-roller; it ran and drove but idled on five cylinders due to low compression. I knew probably needed a rebuild (it did) but at least I could drive the car and see that everything else was OK. I stood up and paid for the car, but was able to DIY the rebuild and get the car on the road for significantly less than I could have bought a C2, but with the bonus of a total rebuild. So it can work. But to your point: do the math, and expect worst case.

Good write-up. I disagree with including things like engine mounts, tires, and brakes be included though. Tires and brakes are wear items that are easy to replace and their condition will vary. It is just a delayed expense. Personally, I prefer changing both as soon as I buy a car. Yes, buying a used car has its risks. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Hopefully people considering a 996 know that coming into this game. The IMSB issue is pretty well-known. I'm pretty vocal about recommending people first save $35k. While theyre doing that, look for the best roller you can. Once you find one, schedule a proper rebuild, then enjoy the car. I even made a YT video about it. The unfortunate reality that comes back.to haunt people is focusing on the initially buy-in price. $35k scares most people away, but sadly in the end they spend more and go through more hassle. It's human nature. Your experience is what I try to help people never experience. You spent around $20k on an engine that can literally fail at any moment. ~$10k more and you couldve had a pretty stress free engine rebuild and had a practically bulletproof M96. Now you have a great engine. Even if the roller has tons of issues, you can always pull.out the engine, sell the roller again, then find another one. In your case, you couldve swapped the rebuilt M96 into your first 996, put that engine into the roller, and then sold it. The point I'm trying to make is dont waste money on an unreliable engine, no matter what kind of car it's going into. Use the cheap roller prices to your advantage, then put the money "saved" into a proper engine rebuild.

Great write up Bill! Thanks for taking the time to post. Another option is to look for rebuild title cars....yeah, I know, people freak out about this option in the Pcar world, but lets face it, unless its a GT3, it's unlikely a 996 will ever be a collector and appreciate a great deal of value. A solid, well repaired rebuild can be an outstanding bargain, "if" you can live with the shame of the title

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Because I'm weird that way. If one is good, two or more is better. I don't why I do that on things that are hobbies. When I was into watches I had 10-15 Rolexes (and other brands) at any given time. When I was into boats I had four or five at any given time. Now I'm into cars have 20+. OCD, maybe? ...lol

3 dogs, 2 911s, 1 wife, 0 watches/boats. I have my OCD under control.

I see no reason to buy a roller unless you intend to do the work yourself, it defeats the purpose otherwise. It’s a good write up.

2 Porsches, 2 Dogs, 12 electric guitars, 1 ex-wife, its nice to have options.

I feel pretty good about my roller purchase(so far) experience after reading this...Buy low!

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Like everything in life, luck plays a big part of it. It�s always better to be lucky than good

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Luck played a huge part for me! I also listened to Jake, he said not to pay more than $4K for any roller...Buying a used motor is really the one that can bite you hard (if you don't get lucky) put the project in a financial tailspin.

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I get it now, the ex-wife part explains a lot. For the record, I will never buy an unknown engine anymore. Burnt twice. From now on, it's always the Devil I Know vs the Devil being Dumped on me. Second, unless I have indoor storage place that does not impinge on other cars, I do not buy projects. They always sit, takes too long, and I never have the time.

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1 dog. 1 wife. 1 996. 1 rolex. 0 boats - I'm smarter than that.

Very helpful. Thank you.

Neglected to mention the 3 ex-fiances, I have a 5 year rule, after 5 years they're either sick of me or I'm sick of them. (cribbed from Kurt Russel in "Big Trouble in Little China", love that movie!)

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So Bill, when did you get the red car (996)? Not that it matters a whole lot, but it might help frame the costs against today's market. I see others are putting up their tote board: 1 (good) wife 1 dog 1 ex 1 daughter 1 son 1 996 20+ other cars (some even run) 1 watch (that was given to me, and has been worn once or twice)

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November 2019

Never buy a roller unless you "like" working on them and have the skilz.. 2 ex-wives 2 99 996 1 02 986 2 Sons 1 Daughter 6 Grandkids 1 boat 1 watch (Porsche Gold Miester #525) 0 dogs 0 cats

You snagged a clean guards red 6MT coupe for $12k last year? Craigslist find?

For me it used to be motorcycles....I was up to 9 at one point. Trying to manage the obsessive element with age. 1 wife 1 son 1 dog 8+ cheap watches, now only where Apple watch my family bought me 1 996 1 truck 1 SxS 2 motorcycles 2 garages

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Well, you hit the jackpot on that one.

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Nope...Porsche forum.Right place at the right time....rare for me Update on the white car.....Picked it up today from the shop. It's about a 45 mile drive home via interstate. I don't want to jinx myself but the car runs great! Took it up to "higher" speeds a couple times and the car pulls strong and smooth. Oil pressure at 2800 rpm is over 4 bars, coolant temp a touch over the middle bar (in the "8" of the 180) and no CEL's. The rebuilt transmission from GBox is a delight....wow! Very smooth and will only get better with time. It has cost time and money to get here. But, so far (knock on wood), I'm pleased. BTW...The $9052 bill included $4600 in parts.... two cam solenoids, IMS solution, DME repair, AOS, clutch slave and line, plus a bunch of seals and such as well as oil, Porsche coolant, etc.