Questions Prior to 996 Purchase

Hi, all. I am considering the purchase of a 996, and the whole IMS situation does have me a bit worried. Reading through the forums, it seems that some don't feel it to be a very big risk with a failure rate of 10%, but I don't want to be one of the 10%...!!! The car I'm looking at is a 2000 carrera 4, has 100k miles and an asking price of $12k. Supposedly the low price is because these items are needed: -Rear seal is leaking -Differential is leaking -Needs 100k tune up My BIG worry is the oil loss has to do with the IMS failing. What is the best (only?) way to assure this is not the case? If the above items are what needs to be done, how much will that set me back?

RMS leak is not a critical, but needs to be mended, typically at next clutch replacement. IMS is also prone to leaking, but less common. I would do the IMS, RMS and clutch at once after purchasing this car. I did that with my car, which had a leaking RMS, clutch needed replacement and IMS was fine.

+1 for the comments above. Plus, it's all about the service history.

If you're this uncomfortable about certain things, walk away. Remember that cost of entry is the easy part. People often overlook the cost of ownership aspect of it all the time. I think it would be better to up your budget for a better maintained car than to risk having to dump a lot into it after the fact, especially if you don't know or plan on working on your own car.

As for the RMS leak, the guy says it will leak about a quart a day if the car is driven. Could this still be a RMS leak? Alpine--good point. I don't mind maintaining such a car... I just don't want a complete engine failure after purchase. From reading here and talks I've had, it certainly is intimidating. Truly--do these cars fail this much??

It sounds like this car will potentially need some expensive repairs. The leaking differential could be an expensive problem. I think I would keep looking.

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+1. When I bought my car, I got these done as part of the deal. Have the air-oil separator (AOS) replaced at the same time. It's cheap to do along with the other work, but expensive to do as a stand alone repair. The AOS is a plastic part, and if will break sooner or later. Find out if the water pump is original; if it is, replace that as well. Find out how old the coolant is, as coolant loses some of its capability over time. If nothing has been done about the water pump, odds are you'll want to have the cooling system flushed & refilled. I'm probably a little paranoid about engine cooling, but it seems like overheating is a great way to break one of these cars. As a number of people have pointed out in other posts, it's critical to know what has or hasn't been done with the car in the past. Service records are a big deal.

If you are doing a RMS and clutch. Then while you are there you need to do the AOS too. Trust me. It will only add a few hundred more now. Later it while be about a $1000 by itself.

Going to see car in a bit. I've been told by a couple of mechanics to check the oil filter and sump to check for metal shavings. If there are no visible signs of ferrous metal, I should be in decent shape. I would like to hear thoughts on this. Once purchased, I plan to immediately get the RMS and IMS replaced. But for now... I just don't want to buy an engine that fails on the drive home.

Even though the seller has told you what is wrong with it (potentially) I would still advise on getting a PPI done or at very least take one of your mechanic friends along with you. It's always better to be safe then sorry.

Listen for noises coming from the front differential. When my front differential failed, the very first symptom of a problem was a subtle gear whine from the front of the car. After that, it began to leak and ultimately the bearings failed. Rebuilding or replacing the front differential is expensive. I think my rebuild was almost $4,000. Sorry to bring it up twice - but you should know that it's a potential issue that should concern you since you mentioned that the differential is leaking.

Thanks, Dennis. And I have set up an appointment to take the car to a mechanic. They're def going to check for ferrous metal in the oil, oil filter, sump, etc., and also take a look at the differential leak. Is there anything else I should have them inspect?

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Did I hear that right? A QUART A DAY???? Uh...no..negative. What's not to say the owner could've just done a fresh oil change and cleaned everything out prior to the PPI? It has happened to others only to find out they were getting metal shavings after their own first oil change with some miles added on. Not really a dependable indicator IMO. IMO, I wouldn't really waste my time in trying to rescue this car unless you're knowledgeable and willing to put in your own sweat equity to resolve these issues yourself. My $.02

Wow... I missed the "quart a day" leak in the original comments. That's a significant leak. Before my RMS was replaced, my car leaked roughly 1 or 2 drops a day.

Run away, don't just walk!

I would pass on it, doesnt seem like the owner has taken care of the car. Is this the same car in question? https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...-this-car.html

You might want to make sure that some of that quart of oil isn't going out the exhaust in the form of oval cylinders or smoked rings. When these cars get to hot, that is an issue. A quart a day is an extreme about of oil loss.

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They do seem similar in description, don't they? A quart a day is an absolute disaster. First of all, I can't fathom that amount of oil loss in a running car, and second, to even discover that in the first place, the engine was almost certainly run with too little oil at some point. I would proceed as though the engine needed a full rebuild.

I missed the "quart a day," also. Run, don't walk.

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Agreed!! New motor is ~15k if you can find one.

Pass. Don't make the mistake of buying the cheapest 911 you can find. In the end it will be far from cheap. As far as the IMS is concerned better to look at it as there being a 92%-97% chance you'll never have an issue with it.

Wow... I left here before being able to see all of the responses. I'm glad I made the decision that I did!!! Upon seeing the car I immediately knew it wasn't "the one". THANK YOU everyone for your comments and keeping me grounded.

You could very well have to put $12K into the car after you bought it and even then not had a $24K 911. While the misfires could be plugs, with the heavy oil consumption -- if that was all RMS the underside of the engine/tranny should be sopping wet from all the oil leaking out and there should be oil stains under the car that rival those around the Exxon Valdez when it leaked oil -- I suspect serious internal engine problems. I wouldn't take that car as a gift. You did the right thing to walk away. But before walking away you also did the right thing to spend time with the car and become more aware of how important it is to really check these cars out. Assume nothing works until you verify it does.

I would be very leery of buying a significantly used p-car "with issues" from anyone who has owned the car for only 6 months. I would be suspicious that the seller has now discovered that the costs of fixing the "issues" will probably mean ending up upside down; hence, its time to bail. Frankly, at any given moment the marketplace seems to have a big inventory of used 996/997s, many of which have been casually driven and expertly maintained. IMHO, its best to save your money for a no issues/moderate mileage example. relinuca

The only time you want to buy a 996 with issues, is one where the owner sells you the car for $5k thinking he has a seized engine when it's really just a bad alternator.lol.

Dude! Buy mine... 2002 996 C2 6 speed

Didn't know you were selling your car, Don. GLWS!

I just bought a cheap 996. After replacing the clutch, flywheel, and IMS, I now have as much money into it as the other nicer cars were selling for. Just buy a nice, but higher mileage car that has already had the IMS replaced. I see many for around $18k on the pelican forum. You'll spend less $$ in the long (and short run). Allen

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If I were in the market, I think I'd be taking a close look at some of the cars for sale in the enthusiast forums (like right here on Rennlist). Initial purchase price might be more than that "cheap" $12k car, but you'll get a well-sorted car with a known service history. In the long run, IMO, you'll spend a lot less cash and lot less time in the shop.

Every time I buy a project car I regret it. And I lose money compared to buying one that was higher priced but well cared for. Every. Damn. Time. You'd think I would learn, but sometimes I still think I can come out ahead by buying a cheap fixer upper. Even with a lift in my garage and a decent set of tools, it costs me. I kick myself every time I talk myself into doing it. Then my other cars suffer because I spend all my spare time working on the project car and blow off keeping them up to snuff.

The car has not been cared for or maintained. That's pretty obvious or it would not have ANY faults. I would walk right now and forget about it.

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No...Mine! http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...74977189&Log=0

LOL! Both are very sharp cars... definitely food for thought. I've been looking around a bit more, and now I'm starting to do what I always do... over-think!! My main question now is should I buy a 997? Maybe this is a post for the 997 forums, but if I can get a newer, faster Carrera S for around $35k and be guaranteed to not have the IMS issue, might I be better off? Not to mention the 997 has a much more modern interior, etc. I mean... if I buy a 996 for $20k and the IMS fails, I'll be dropping at least $15k for an engine--correct? So I'm spending $35k on an older car (IF it happens). Here again, I'm just considering the supposed "failure progress" of the IMS. Even if I buy a car with the IMS replacement kit, who to say the IMS wasn't already breaking down and getting metal into the engine, and subsequently shortening its life? And as one other person stated in a forum I read, who is to say that the replacement bearing is better than the original? There are far fewer replacement bearings out there, so it makes sense you'll hear much less about failure rates with those. I'm still not ruling out the 996--it's a *beautiful* car--but I want to make the right decision for me. I'd appreciate hearing your opinions...!

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Good luck finding a well sorted 997.2 for $35k. Also, please post any info you have on a failed LNE IMSB replacement. Your logic on pricing is flawed. If you buy a 996 AND the engine fails you will have spent $35k on an older car? That's quite a stretch. With your concerns, why not buy a 996, add a $3-$4k warranty and sleep well at night? My advice...if you are this concerned about buying a 996...don't buy one. Or just buy mine!

Can you get a warranty on a car with 100,000 miles that is any good? I did buy a non-factory warranty on a car once, but I never had to use it. The company ended up getting investigated by the government for fraud (we were contacted since we had bought a warranty from them). Kind-of wild..!! Is the warranty you mention from Porsche? I back to seriously considering the 996... I set a budget for my "toy", and I can't keep letting it rise..!! Gonzo--love your car, but I just don't care for red....!!!

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My advice after having bought a 996 in 11/12 and a long story behind it, including engine rebuild and two IMSB failures: * Only a 996 is in your price range, and this is a great car with a few specific problem areas in the engine that are unfortunately disastrous * Car must have been driven as close to every day as possible, high mileage is a plus. 5-10k/year and likely higher in that range is better . This also means no car from northern states where it is packed up for the winter (*exceptions may exist but it's not clear you'd have any way to confirm they are OK). * If you can't find a known OCD Porsche specialist independent to do the PPI near the car, don't bother and move on. Expect to pay $200 - $300 for a super thorough PPI that includes a thorough test drive(s), detailed sensor analysis (fuel trim, cam timings, O2 sensors, misfires, etc.) with Durametric or PIWIS. A deeply experienced non-dealer specialist is your only choice here. * Fanatical maintenance history. No issues, no leaks, nothing wrong with it. PPI should find only minor minor issues. Be wary of a ton of fixes just before selling. Owner should have been maintaining it regularly all along. * Never ever has had metal in the engine (unless it was fully torn down and rebuilt). Any metal, of any kind, at any time!! * Budget an IMSB replacement right off the bat and do it immediately Based on current 996 values and engine costs, the surprising/humbling reality is that the value of a 996 is the value of its engine; the rest of the car adds nothing. It's crazy but it's what it is. The ideal car is a high mileage daily commuter with frequent oil changes at an indy shop that uses better than Mobil-1 and an owner who is fanatical about maintenance. Then put in an LNE IMSB, full-flow oil filter, and be fanatical yourself. Count on $1k - $2k/year in normal maintenance expenses on average.

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No affiliation to seller, but that looks like a nicely sorted car at a decent price. OP - I was in the same boat until a couple months ago. The best thing you can do is drive both. I originally had my heart set on a 997 until I drove a friend's well sorted 996. At that point, I decided that a 996 was enough car for me and it is relatively easy to fix the car's shortcomings. Out of the box, the 997 is definitely the better car. It's up to you to decide if it's worth the premium over the 996. I found a really nice 40th AE car at a good price, so I went with that. Like others have mentioned, I doubt you'll find a nice C2S at 35K. FWIW, the 2005 C2's that I looked at were all in the $35-40K price range. Good luck with the search.

Thanks, all. After my first experience, I will definitely expect top-notch from this point forward. I want to buy a car that is ready to drive--with confidence--from the get-go. I just don't have time for a "fixer upper"... at one time that would likely have been an enjoyable diversion for me, but not now. I have *no* idea what I was thinking with the $12k car...!!! Ideally, I would like to buy a C4 cabriolet. However, I might just buy a well-sorted carrera coupe for now and enjoy it while I search for "the" car. Who knows...??

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Everybody knows that Red cars are the fastest! Good luck with your search

Jonathan-You can get what you want in the sub-$20k range. I bought my '99 C4 Aero coupe in May 2013 for $18,000. It had high miles - 133,000, but just had a different engine put in it with only 61,000. And no, it wasn't the IMSB that went bad - the prior owner drove over a hunk of semi-truck tire and it broke the oil filter housing starving the engine of oil. Insurance paid for the replacement engine. The prior owner had the entire replacement engine gone through, replacing the IMS bearing and all of the seals, etc. While the engine was getting redone, he bought another car. So, I got the car with only 1,000 miles after all of that work was done. I've put 13,000 miles on it since then, and the only significant problem was a fuel pump that died ($550 total fix including labor - thanks RennsportKC!). So, there are well maintained Mk 1's out there that you can buy in the teens and won't cost you an arm and a leg in maintenance costs (especially if you can wrench a little yourself). A well maintained Mk II will be a few thousand more. So, talk yourself back down from the $35,000 cliff. By the way, you will still have IMSB issues with the 997 until, I believe, 2008. One last plug for the 996. They are at the bottom of their depreciation curve right now. While you shouldn't buy a 996 as an investment nor fret too much about what you'll sell the car for after you're done with it, you can also assume that you'll get most of the purchase price back when you sell the car (given that you don't overpay when you buy it). Buy the car to enjoy it, but also enjoy knowing that a 996 isn't going to kill you in depreciation.

+1 kcattorney. We bought our 2004 04 C4S Cab with 106,000 miles. Our budget was $30k. We got it for $26,500. After putting on tires, AOS, water pump, a belt etc. we quickly approached our 30k budget. We still plan to put a new convertible top on, alignment, and plugs. I do my own oil changes and other small maintenance items, that helps save a little and I get to know my car better. Now, we could not be happier with our car. We looked around to see what else we could get for up to $30k and there is a lot of good inventory out there. Toyota's, BMW's, Ford's etc. But we mostly chose our car for the uniqueness. As someone else here on the board said, the C4S cab was only made in 2004. Depreciation has been slow to null. Although we don't plan to sell it. We bought it for the enjoyment and we love our car we like a family member, lol. My wife names him MAX. Now I have read your entire thread and you seem to have major concerns about IMS, and you should. Sure there have been problems but only a very small percent, however cars with higher mileage that have been driven are less likely to have problems so it seems. But honestly if this issue is going to drive you crazy every time you drive the car, maybe this car is not for you. Trust me it's a great car, and just a car, and they do break. Either way have the money to tackle the job up front and fix it, or buy one that has had the fix. But if you are still worried after the fix, well there's a different story here. GLWYS

analysis paralysis

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+1 kromdom

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Except mine of course. But seriously I had to replace the clutch so I replaced everything I could think of while the transmission was out. I only wanted to do that once so for me it made more sense to replace accessible maintenance items as a preventative measure. Already done (preventative maintenance) and I still have the original for inspection. It was in perfect condition. This is absolutely true. Good luck in your search!

Jonathan - there are many, many more fish in the 996 sea. Buy one you feel great about.