Wanting to track a 200,000 mile 996.2 what could go wrong

Ok guys so� it�s white, 996.2 c2 and rust free. Manual trans with 200,200 miles on the clock Have fun with this one but what could go wrong? ny plans are: roll bar 996 gt3 seats susoension oil baffle shifter and cables what should I do to engine? I would like it to last but if it doesn�t I will just rebuild it. should I do an engine out service or just confirm compression is good and send it? any advice is welcome and sarcasm is welcome as well

bet 17 black on the roulette wheel has less of a chance on hitting then your engine grenading good luck drive it until it does

For the engine, here are 2 configurations depending on how soon you are going to track it and UIDS availability. Config 1: Without UIDS 1. UAOS Track Version 2. LN 2 Qt deep sump with baffle 3. Make sure you have a good IMSB either LN Solution or Retro 4. LN Low temp thermostat 5. 2 or 3 CSF radiators. Make sure all your cooling system bits are new including water pump. 6. Replace your trans/dif lubrication. With this configuration you will be running 3 quarts of extra oil. 1 qt extra with UAOS Track and 2 qts with deep sump. Config 2: With UIDS 1. UAOS Track version 2. UIDS with oil extension. 3. LN Solution or Retro IMS 4. LN Low Temp Thermostat. 5. 3 CSF radiators, same as above with new cooling system bits and water pump. 6. Replace your trans/dif lubrication. With this configuration you will be running 1.5 extra qts of oil possibly more. Cooling will be important with 3 radiators until LN Oil cooling kit is ready for sale. I would do the standard engine tests first that you mentioned above, as well as the following before you spend any money on the car. 1. Oil test with OilVue to see what you got inside. 2. Drop your sump to see what's floating around. 3. Scope the bores Also, you want throttle response, so replace the following. 1. Ignition coils 2. Spark ugs 3. Fuel injectors 4. MAF 5. Air filter I could go on but you get the idea. The 3.6 is an incredible engine. You just gotta keep it cool and lubed with lots of oil. D-chunking is an issue with the 3.4, but not the 3.6. You will notice the extra 20 hp accross the powerband immediately. Lastly, until the LN oil cooler is ready for sale, keep your session down to 25 min on the track. This will keep your temps under controll. After 25 min sessions, oil temps start to rise very quickly swamping the water cooling. Hence the need for the oil cooling kit. When you get off the track, take it for a slow couple of cooling laps around the paddock. Hope it helps.

Fast forward another year, supply chains open up and all new parts are readily for sale. Here is the ultimate engine track set-up to help mitigate oil starvation and oil pressure instability, as well as facilitate extra cooling. Config 3 1. UAOS Track version 2. UIDS w/ oil extension 3. LN oil cooling kit 4. LN Low temp thermostat 5. 2 or 3 CSF radiators, new water pump, new cooling bits. 6. LN Ims solution or retro

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This would be the best thing to do, and other than the solution, you would be able to reuse all of it on your new or rebuilt motor when the one with 200K goes.

I’m so new to this thanks so people not use an acu sump like the one from Patrick Motorsports?

You don't need it with any of the configurations. Especially with the UIDS.

Club racers have run the 996 with Config 1 for 2 decades. Some have added an accusump, many have not. Same can be said with DE, myself included since 2004. The ultimate set-up #3 is what I will be running with the UIDS. A key piece every club racer and serious DE guy is waiting on is oil cooling. Never had it for the 996 because there was no room to put it in the engine bay. LN is working on it and will have a solution. But it's like fiting a square peg in a round hole.

Read Zbombs thread on Oil Pressure Instability. It's long, but contains an incredible amount of information from LN, FSI, HARTECH, CST as well as valuable insight from Porschetech3 in combination with Jason running analytics in his car as he tests the UAOS Track version as well as the rollout of the UIDS. Acusump is discussed, as well as everything else relevant to oil starvation and oil pressure instability. Suffice to say, it is the most important thread that anyone can read on RL if you plan on tracking your car. Edit/add: Be patient as you read the thread. Make sure you read it in its entirety. Don't jump to conclusions as everyone argues points. By the end, you will see the light at the end of the tunnel and why configuration 3 when available, will be the end game. Importantly, all these parts should be able to be reused in a rebuild, so no wasted money.

^ Great info ^

I would start simple - a motor with that many miles is bound to have some wear and tear stuff, I would start with non-sexy stuff: Coolant hoses Water pump Vacuum lines Clutch Oil pressure relief spring Injectors Cats Serp Belt Air filter Plugs Coils Clean out in front of rads Coolant flush Make sure power steering topped up Fresh oil in the gearbox When you're sure all that stuff is at least reasonably good - for motor mods: UAOS with drain back Muffler delete Get rid of the cats if you can I like direct feed IMSB, it has worked for me Vent front fender liners If the car is not going to be used heavily in traffic, remove one radiator fan and all the **** behind it A clutch type LSD if you are going to run without PSM Brakes: Sebro slotted rotors Hawk HP+ if fair amount of street use / DTC60 if you don't care about noise and want the extra track performance Castrol SRF fluid, keep it fresh GT3 Master cylinder Suspension Replace all the worn ****, with that many miles, likely a lot will end up in the bin Ohlins if coilovers... or whatever @hbdunn is running if you want to stick with conventional setup... His car slays pretty hard Adjustable rear toe arm to keep from burning up rear tires when lowered Adjustable top mounts and or LCA's for the front so you can get the camber up, you can get plenty of rear camber with stock stuff GT3 rear bar Adjustable end links F and R Tire / Wheel If stock wheel, 235 F and 285 R... If going with aftermarket, I would go for a 9 in front and 10.5 or 11 in rear and run 245/305. I like Nt01.... I think everyone likes NT01 - they are kind of the jam Interior Roll bar that bolts to the rear shock towers Harness Seat - use BK auto mounts with the sub belt attachment Removable steering wheel makes ingress / egress a lot easier with the bucket seat but prob not needed The CAE shifter is one of the best mods I have done.... ever. It's worth the money and for a track car, I really don't know what anyone would **** around with anything else, other than cost I think thats is about it, probably forgetting some stuff though.

OMG! That's the car I've been looking for to do exactly the same thing! Nothing to add that Zbomb's note and GC996's notes haven't covered, except Good luck!

Zbomb and GC996 gave excellent answers backed by experience. My small addition that wasn't mentioned is make sure your cam deviations are in-spec. Otherwise, I really wouldn't worry too much about tracking a car that doesn't have any underlying issues even with 200k miles. As long as oil pressure and temperatures are kept within proper range; there is no reason to think the engine will just come apart because it has high mileage.

What could fo wrong? Im sure u have seen my build thread, so start looking for a wrecked gt3 .

I can only say that with a 200k mile engine you will have more bearing wear than on a low mile engine like Brad's @hbdunn or Jack's @Jnelso neither of whom get the oil pressure drops in hard corners to any extent. Jason's @zbomb car with a little less thank 100k miles had fairly severe oil pressure drops; read his thread and learn. Aaron's @De Jeeper 200k mile engine had enough oil pressure drop to starve the #7 main bearing and frag the engine so catastrophically that the bottom end was totally toast. The #7 main is where the oil pressure drops are seen first as it must be at the end of the line for oil flow. Bearing wear increases oil flow to maintain a given pressure. This is not all bad; more oil flow tends to help bearing cooling. Where it goes bad is when the oil pump cannot keep up with the demand. It appears that the stock oil pump is marginal in the situation of high mileage bearings. I suggested to Jason @zbomb that refreshing the engine with new main and rod bearing shells would prong it's life; time and money precluded that being done this winter. The marginal flow capacity of the oil pump suggests that an Accusump might not be the best answer because the oil in the Accusump needs to be replaced after it's been dispensed, this robs even more flow from the oil circuit. Really the oil pressure drops are the only thing that concerns me with these engines. Running the UAOS with drain back allows for a lot more oil in the sump which seems to help as shown by Jason's data. Also if you're new to track driving it will take some time before you are pushing the G load hard enough to get severe drops - especially if you are running 200-240 treadwear street tires.

You should be able to reuse the IMS Solution when rebuilding the motor if you do not have a catastrophic failure. The IMS Solution is located inside the intermediate Shaft. FSI was able to reuse mine when rebuilding my 3.6 into a 4.0L

Depends on your track experience and how hard you push it and what group you run with. If you were a regular track rat, the engine might not hold up. Unless those 200k miles are all highway, the engine is near the end anyway. Realistically, what happens most of the time with a car like this is you could develop a slow oil or coolant leak, have some brake fade due to brake cooling issues, hot engine temps.

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What I�m afraid of� having $40k into building a nice track 996 then she pops and there goes another $25k for a rebuild engine / trans. Then have $65 into a track 996 and sell it years later for $30� Only race / track car I made money on was a factory cup car. I need to continue to noodle this one. Im picking up this car on Thursday. I�ll bring it home and see what she wants. Thanks to all for their very thoughtful replies. You all are an amazing source of info and priceless.

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The oil pump is more than adequate on m96 engines, in fact it starts by-passing oil at 3.5k to 4k rpm when warm oil and normal bearing clearances.( which means at 7k rpm it is pumping about twice as much oil as it is actually using to flow through the engine due to being a "positive displacement" pump) The issue with high mileage/loose bearings is that there is too much "oil turn-over", meaning the oil leaves the sump AND returns faster which causes excess aeration/foam of the oil and not enough good/un-areated oil..The Twin Tunnel Port UIDS addresses this by placing the oil ports much much deeper in the "good oil" on turns, which is where the "center pick-up" sumps fail..The "good oil" is heavier than the "aerated/foamy oil" and will always pile up on left or right sides of the sump when in turns..this is where the pick-ups should be.. The bearing clearances/ internal looseness of the engine can be checked by testing oil pressure at the head at 4k rpm and 40wt oil at 212F , it should be at or above 4 Bar. If the pressure is below 4 bar under this test, the clearances/looseness of the engine are above ideal and a 50wt oil may get the the pressure and "turn-over rate" back to an acceptable range. or a 60wt oil if the 50wt is not sufficient. Yes I know the heavier oil has a little more friction, but the friction increase is not "sliding friction" it is just viscous or moving friction. The thicker oil has a thicker oil film between the bearings, so the oil flow will remain the same as a thinner (40wt) oil with tighter clearances. The key being the "oil turn-over rate"...which also equates to "oil residence time" in the sump.. As another note :: for tracking an M96 I would suggest using an oil made from a base of POA or POA/Ester. POA oil has been tested to be 3x more anti-foam than Group 3 oils..These POA based oils will cost you $20-$25 a qt, but are worth it... With 3 or 5 chains whipping around at 7k rpm, aeration and anti-foam is a big deal.. On another note to the OP on a 200k mile car: :::wheel bearings.......200k is not big deal for running down the highway, but in high lateral G-force loads, the ball bearings take a beating...

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You aren�t wrong! I almost listed that too.

Mike, your numbers are pretty accurate. Quite frankly, if you want a track car, you can find one for about the same price as what you need to put into the 200k car with a heck of a lot less miles and properly sorted. Given the economic backdrop, you may find something for an even better price shortly.

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I stand correct here, thank you for the clarification.

All... If I am hijacking the thread discussion by all means let me know and i can pose the question in general as a new post, so apologies if this is out of place.. but after saying that it would appear the right guys to advise me are commenting on this post, so to my point... New Porsche guy here with some mechanical understanding of engines and what is being proposed in this post, Iv'e done one HPDE day which i enjoyed, for the first 1 or 2 years i will likely do at most 6 HPDE weekends or up to 12 days per year.. i will be picking up my 2000 MY 996 next month, it has had what i would consider all the good heavy street maintenance recently done , and has Feal coilovers fitted, brake rotors upgraded (not sure what kind), a shifter installed (Ben's) it drives very well, the AOS was done and so was the IMS, it is an Egas car.. i also believe plugs have been done, i will be able to assess using the book of receipts dates and parts used once i pick it up. So now really to my point:- doing the HPDE days as stated what are the modifications i need to do to preserve the engine and transmission and rear differential from any damage, bear in mind if i do this for a year i might decide its not for me.

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I'm looking for sure and tracking a 911 is a dream of mine. LMK if you see anything. I prefer a 996.2

Gary12000, just read the first post by GC996 at the start of this thread� all you need to know.

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I always wanted a pure track car. In fact i love what zbomb is building. It will be to his specs which is cool. Thought about it many times. Just dont have the space for it. So i set mine up as dual purpose and i get everything out of it i want. I'll keep an eye out for what's out there. Back of the Panorama magazine, porsche excellence magazine and various other sites will always have things listed. you can always call up the major indy shops around the country and put the word out. They always know. You can also go to a local PCA club race at one of the major track events and you will see 50+ porsche speed shops there that you can talk to. Come to Road America over labor day weekend for the club race weekend. There will be the largest collection of indies and cars supporting the race than you will ever see. I'll meet you there! Your other option is to do the bare minimum to the 200k car, get on the list for a rebuild, and just have fun until it goes. Remember, the majority number of the engine longevity bolt on and refresh items are transferable to a rebuild. All of the suspension, exhaust, intake, safety, brake, wheels, etc are transferable as well. No lost money. But 200k miles highway or local is closer to failure that 100k or 60k. If cost isn't an issue, just build it out. If you are looking to get everything all at once in a well sorted car, then a well sorted car will get you there and probably save quite a bit of money along the way. But that assumes the car you bought is in good shape at the end of the day. Alot to wrestle with. Fell free to pm if you want to chew on things.

Gary, Look at it as a process that you can evolve as you become more committed to tracking. Below are some thoughts in steps, but the order can be adjusted depending on requirements/needs. I'll fill in more details later tonight when time permits. Step 1: Basic protection of your engine to prevent failure. This is important regardless of you are on the street or track. This is a refresh of anything engine related that should be done to a 20 year old engine. All the basic service on porsche schedule, imsb Upgrade with Solution or Retro, replace AOS with UAOS Track version regardless if you will track the car or not. Bits, sensors, plugs coils, etc. Step 2: Track protection for engine which includes more oil and more cooling. Deep sump or better yet UIDS, more water cooling and more oil cooling when available. Step 3-9: suspension, brakes, exhaust, intake, software, safety equipment, aero, wheels, tires. Alot to talk about here. As you can see, it can get very expensive, but none of it matters if you don't do the right things to your engine to keep it running. I'll fill in more when I get the chance.

Frederik, what to do first is the question.. just to get started and get some laps in.. the DE day i did was 6 x 20 minute sessions of laps of a 2.7 mile course with a bias to right hand bends.

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Answer:- any advice is much appreciated..

There have been a few track 996s popping up on Rennlist lately, including two currently for sale: 996.2: https://rennlist.com/forums/market/1305432 996TT: https://rennlist.com/forums/market/1307028

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Messaged the NA owner. That turbo is really nice. Just never thought about tracking a turbo before. Interesting

For improving reliability before hitting the track, I recommend reading this: https://lnengineering.com/education/...96-engine.html Granted, there are some new things that have changed recently (UAOS) but this covers lots of stuff well. Just skip the part about AOS and replace your AOS with a UAOS.

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Both are sweet. 996.2 has 60k worth of stuff, not counting the car done to it with what they say is a freshly tebuilt engine. Turbo is crazy as well. you should pick the PRFs brain on the turbo since he has been tracking his. He removed the front drive. Probably one of the first things I would do as well.

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Good question. I don't dare to run my stock 996 on a track. At the minimum, I'd say you want to have it in good running order, add a deep sump and the UAOS.

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I agree and maybe add to that a good anti-foaming oil based on porschtech3 's post about it, suggesting a group IV oil with POA which i read on line about PAO oils i guess the same thing.

. As another note :: for tracking an M96 I would suggest using an oil made from a base of POA or POA/Ester. POA oil has been tested to be 3x more anti-foam than Group 3 oils..These POA based oils will cost you $20-$25 a qt, but are worth it... With 3 or 5 chains whipping around at 7k rpm, aeration and anti-foam is a big deal.. Comment:-- I did some reading or at least tried to about oils and its a bit of a minefield, LN engineering has a oil service package, although i'm not sure if that is the oil you speak of, if you could comment or PM me on that, or perhaps you know of a supplier who has the oils you speak of.. when i searched a lot came up about conflicting specs of manufacturer's...

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Track only views, some are not applicable to the car in question. Pros: won't ever have oiling issues with the engine, won't ever have cooling system temperature issues, won't have oil temp issues, can have as much reliable power as your wallet can stand, will never have brake fade even with stock calipers and rotors if good pads are used. Cons: Heavy, stock ECU tuning is not super great for responsiveness, stock suspension is worthless for track use, transmission can require expensive rebuild if tracked extensively - ironically due to oil starvation on hard acceleration. (Aside, Carerra transmissions can also have this, though the Carerra box is cheaper to replace or rebuild.)

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If you're currently running DT40, then XP9 is the oil you want to use on the track. Both are compatible additive-wise. If you're running something else, then XP9 may or may not be what you want to run.

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Gary, sorry I didn't catch that you responded inside of the quote boxes. Below is a copy and paste with your responses as well as mine back at you. Gary : once i get the car in my hands i can go through all the receipts and see the dates of what was done when and make a plan for any out of date or missing maintenance, the car has 74,000 miles and has quite a bit of standard maintenance, including the IMSB and the AOS but i suspect teh AOS was just replaced i doubt the track UAOS was added at that time. Glenn : The more service/maintenance info the better. FWIW, I run a spreadsheet of the major/minor Porsche Factory schedule that is cross-checked with what I have done by date since 2002 and what I need to do. Depending on if you are a wrencher or not, our 20 year old cars do need a look over, even if everything has been done from a service/maintenance history. There is always a rubber and or plastic part or bit that is fragile which should be replaced. In addition, you would be well served if you have fresh MAF, ignition coils, fuel injectors, spark plugs, water pump, cooling rubber and plastic, etc. Yeah, my bet would be its the factory AOS, which you should replace with the UAOS track version. First, you can run an extra quart of oil above full, which helps with cooling over a 20-25 min session, and second, its just a better all around design than the AOS and motorsports AOS for many reasons. Check out the UAOS thread for more info. Glad the IMSB was replaced. Check to see which one and when. If its the LN IMS Retro, it may need to be replaced since their is a window. I just replaced my Retro last month. It was 10-years old, looked brand new, but according to LN it should be done sooner. Gary : UIDS seems a pretty serious upgrade for my current level of competence, maybe a deep sump kit like the LN/Bilt one would be sufficient, regarding the extra water cooling how is that achieved. Glenn : UIDS is a serious upgrade. According to Skip's testing, it eliminates the oil starvation/oil pressure instability issues under heavy G's in relation to the 2 quart deep sump with the UAOS track version, which helps to mitigate it, but does not eliminate it. This is huge because the faster you become, the more Gs you will pull under heavy braking and cornering and therefore the more risk you run with oil starvation/oil pressure instability, ultimately leading to engine failure on the track. Before the UAOS and UIDS were invented, we would run the Motorsports AOS which was much more durable than the OEM AOS, and the 2 quart deep sump which provided 2 quarts more oil and cooling advantages early on the the track session for the first 20-25 minutes. Today I would recommend running the UAOS track version (see reasons above), as well as either a 2 quart deep sump or the UIDS, with preference to the UIDS to eliminate, not just mitigate the oil starvation/oil pressure instability issues. Don't get me wrong, way before the UAOS and UIDS, the motorsports aos and 2 quart deep sump did a great job in protecting my engine during track events on hosiers. But, if you want the most robust solution today, you want the UAOS track version and UIDS. To your question on extra water cooling, its achieved by (1) making sure your cooling system is functioning properly and has fresh parts (rubber, plastic, water cooler), (2) add the LN Low Temp thermostat, (3) replace your old radiators with new oem radiators or CSF radiators for enhanced cooling, (4) add a third center radiator either oem or better yet CSF for more cooling. There will be a fifth option for cooling which will be an oil cooling kit from LN, which is the only other solution needed to help mitigate engine failure on the track. Gary :- the car i have purchased is a factory Aero car hopefully that helps one of these things. Glenn : Certainly helps. one less upgrade needed.

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Once again all very helpful thank you so much for your input its very helpful. Regards Gary

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As a side note, if your cooling system is in good shape and functioning just fine, including a relatively new water pump, and you are a novice on track, pretty good chance you don't need any additional cooling at this stage other than a low temp thermostat. May allow you to prioritize the money elsewhere today and plan for more cooling and other things tomorrow as you get more dedicated and faster in the future.

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Its had a low temp thermostat done in the last couple of years not too many miles put on since its been done as i understand.

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You may be in a very good position if a lot of the refresh work was already done by the previous owner. Keep us posted possibly new thread. We all love this stuff. Thanks to Mike for his patience, but he loves this stuff as well.