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YOUR RESEARCHFSI 4.0 on bat
Leading reported evidence
Replace quickly
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Surviving on mostly service and what little used inventory they can find.
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Suggestion
This is the TECHNICAL FORUM…..another FSI engine blah blah blah…… ( not knocking FSI ) this thread is way off topic,I’m out,I have to check my portfolio…..😳
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Suggestion
Even in crazy economic times, people are contacting them about filling spots for his engines.
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Suggestion
This is the TECHNICAL FORUM…..another FSI engine blah blah blah…… ( not knocking FSI ) this thread is way off topic,I’m out,I have to check my portfolio…..😳
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Suggestion
I'm not going to take time away from my tasks to replace lost paperwork, and there's no way that the person who wants this paperwork would be willing to pay what my time is worth to break away from an engine, to reproduce the paperwork.
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Suggestion
Jake is too busy running his businesses to go through the time-consuming scripting process nor do I have time to spend editing every video down to the bare minimum.
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Outcome without a verified action link
You don't need to send a car across the country to get it worked on.
This time is a Cayman and this is the 4th FSI engine car for sale that I have come across since March. This is
an earlier engine 2013. Be interesting to see what this one sells for. Car has additional mods.
Havent followed Cayman prices, but this is very interesting. Balance and handling of the Cayman in general makes it and extraordinary car on the track and around town. Add in the FSI 4.0 and you have a very nimble and fast car. I remember trying to keep up with a Cayman on the track that had fit a 996 GT3 engine into it. Quite frankly I was in awe.
I may be interested in this one. Quick question its the seat space inside a cayman similar to our cars. im 5 10 1/2 and about 259 lb, yeah I know need to go on a diet to minimize weight on my car, but that would imply cutting on the Beers, specially IPAS and meat consumption, aint going to happen.
Unfortunately I am not much of an expert on Caymans. Drove a few on the track and the interior was much tighter than a 996, but can't tell you much more.
Only reason I was worried I test drove a 2002 Cab C4 back to back with my car and mine has more space, I even told the salesman at the porsche dealership to sit on mine and he definitely agreed, probably has to do with the additional diff. What Ill do is next time I hit a cars and coffee I'll ask if I can sit on one, I also think the cayman has lower head room. Thanks, but definitely this engine should make this car a lot of fun to drive.
Lack of rear seats will definitely make it feel like it's more cramped compared to a 911. I would find one locally, be it dealer or C&C and ask to sit in it. This should be a fun track toy and seems to be built like one. Brakes and suspension set up is geared towards track > daily.
The 4 cars that I have seen sold with these engines all did not value the engine much. Today a ruf 3800 s with a bunch of mods sold for 44. The ruf conversion was 43k , in my opinion and I have only been paying attention since December almost all modifications to these cars can be had at a discount by the future owners.
BAT does a pretty good job of research and putting your car in front of eyeballs ( my M3 was auctioned last month) but there is probably a lack of awareness of these builds in the general public. Had this gone for sale in April, I would have been in the running. Well bought.
The sale price of the FSI Cayman may suggest that the viewers and bidders of BAT auctions are more concerned about the paint color, radios and mileage of Caymans than they are about the mechanical aspects of the car which includes future hidden costs. A rebuilt engine by an expert should put a substantial premium on the car versus Oem, especially if it addresses the mechanical shortfalls and adds performance. I suspect very few folks have heard of FSI, Hartech, RND/LN, until the get involved in the community in a big way. Nor are they aware of the issues, costs and solutions. So therefore, they focus on color, radios and mileage.
It will change as the Cayman market heats up. No different than the 996 market.
Maybe people aren’t willing to pay a big premium based on statements the engine builder made regarding the level of forward going support that could be expected.
Bench racing car auctions is fun. We should do a price is right thing.
It could be.
If I were one of these engine builders, I would figure out how to provide some form of service to the non-original clients. It would undoubtedly help in demand for those vehicles not to mention resale values.
But I get it, once the transaction is done, there is no revenue incentive to support it for the next owner and only costs. So why not set up a fee program for non-original owners. Pay a fee for information, service questions and parts. It could also be another revenue source for the engine builder.
Add Edits: Some engine builders may already offer program for original clients and resold clients. Not suggesting otherwise.
I�m not talking about warranty - no one should expect anything even close to that playing this big boy game.
I�m talking more like:
�Hey, I�m worried my AOS may be failing, when I test it I get numbers that don�t seem right - can you let me know what the target is for my engine combination, the PO did not include any docs that indicate a target manometer reading, I read that the readings for your engines are not comparable to what would be seen on a stock engine.�
FSI is free to run their business however they like, my opinion is statements like this do not do a favor to anyone looking to sell their car with an FSI engine looking for a sweet return on their investment, especially if they have been haphazard in their record keeping and don�t have all the data to supply the perspective buyer they received with their new engine.
There are certainly 3 very high quality engine builders out there if not many more. IMHO, any car with those engines should command a premium over comparable cars without.
If the question is how to drive resale values of cars with rebuilt engines from high quality providers, an important ingredient would certainly seem to be support for the engine in some form if the car was resold.
I think you are overestimating clout because you/we hang out here. How many mechanics do you know outside of your region? You don't need to send a car across the country to get it worked on. Its marketing thats all, that's not to say if you do you won't get a good product. Mods rarely add value to cars thats not a porsche thing. If you don't read these forums you are not going to be scared of bore scoring, ims, whatever. Because they don't happen at the rate it's pushed here. There is a reason interior mod posts are common. The boogeyman is not real you can let your car idle. Humans are awful at risk assessment that is a scientific fact.
Thats a very good point. Very strong brand recognition. The 996 is an illusion of wealth and some people buy these cars for that reason. You can buy a more expensive kia.
The seller didn�t do a great job of marketing that car. It had non functioning gauges. He also didn�t have any type of a good response for the question of frequency of rebuilds. I think a bit of leg work on the sellers end and that car could have sold for quite a bit more. Someone got an insane deal though.
Zip ties dude not electrical tape… I’m not a savage.
Well, when my corner light decided it wanted to see what fresh air was like and hang in by the wire the other day… It may, or may have not been temporarily (maybe permanently) fixed with electrical tape… but just that once
Agreed. May have been the second owner after the FSI rebuild which means they may have had no clue what they had. IMHO, a 4.0 in a Cayman is a pretty damn good package worth more than it sold for. Seems that there are some bargains still on the market.
or maybe it�s just that the market has spoken�.accept it for what it is. After all, isn�t this thread about what �the market� has done for the 996?
exactly
+1
The existence of threads debating future market value or just general overall value of a reputable built motor for any of the platforms that have reliability issues says to me that there is a level of FOMO. Which to me only adds additional support to some level of future value. Sure maybe not this year, maybe not 3 years from now, but I think eventually a well documented, well advised build from any of the reputable builders will demand a premium.
One, I think Jake�s comments were a bit out of context, I don�t think he is going to refuse to ever speak to a secondary owner, look at how helpful he is to people who don�t even own his engines through videos, forums, and their ticket system.
Two, my understanding is the original buyer gets a very complete package documenting the build and future maintenance and can even purchase the entire blueprint.
Three, his motors are really no different than the original motor in terms of being able to diagnose and work on them. He doesn�t recommend the dealership, but any Indy should have no issues. Additionally he has quite the network of Indys who have been through his classes.
Four, anyone buying an FSI motor looking to flip the car and make a profit should be kicked in the nuts. Do I think eventually cars with his engines will demand a premium as these cars age, yes. Would I ever buy one of his engines with that being a driving factor, hell no. If I wanted to see a return on my $30k I would just put it in the market.
This conversation and the hype that conversations like these generate combined with how superior a product the FSI engine is and the fact that even if you had the $ you couldn�t get an FSI motor until TBD 2023 is what will make these motors sell for a premium eventually. People won�t give a **** what direct support FSI will provide them they will just want it and a smart seller will have a complete package of documentation perhaps even the entire engine blueprint.
As most of you know, I've been assisting Flat 6 Innovations and The Knowledge Gruppe with their technology since 2018 and helped start the Rennvision channel. I've been a Porsche owner for more than 6 years and have been active on quite a number of forums. No one likes to talk about engine failures with these cars. It's like going to a movie and someone mentioning the plot because they've seen it. You lean over and tell them to shut up because you want to enjoy the story without knowing how it ends. However, movies are fantasy, owning a car like a Porsche 996 is a reality that can be either good or bad depending on the tolerance level of the owner.
Since 2019, I've been able to view a lot of what Jake Raby has seen on a daily basis. (read the support ticket below) That one just came in this morning. This is a regular occurrence for him. When he brings these experiences to light, he's quickly called a fearmonger, but the reality (like the owner in the support ticket) is true of M9X based engines. As an owner, I've wanted to know how to better take care of these cars and what "under developed" (in the words of Skip - PorscheTech3) areas of the engine will need to be addressed.
My father was born in 1937 and during those times, people smoked cigarettes, pipes, and cigars with no thought it could be killing them. Public awareness of the dangers of smoking was unheard of. In fact, most of the commercials promoted smoking. It was a cultural thing. Fast forward until the 70s/80s when I was a kid. Do you remember the surgeon general ads back then? Things changed quickly. But the smokers hated to hear about the risks of lung cancer and emphysema, and my dad was one of them. He smoked all of his life since his teenage years. It wasn't until my mom became an RN did things change for my family in regards to smoking. She saw death daily related to smoking. Her direct influence was instrumental in getting my father to stop smoking. He still had severe pulmonary fibrosis associated with all the years of smoking, but thankfully he stopped or he wouldn't still be around to talk about it.
IMHO, most of the core problems can be mitigated or even eliminated with correct action, but it's dependent on good preventive measures and a consistent maintenance regime.
God speed everyone!
This is exactly what happens to garage queens. You need to drive these cars. When I was looking for mine almost 91k miles, I almost bought a blue convertible at the local Porsche dealer. I met the owner of that car 3 months ago, yes bore scoring and he paid $10k more than me on a cabrio. Anything larger than a 3.4 boroscope is a must. A Carrera S just came up on bat
where the seller already boroscoped the car, that�s the way to sell these cars to
an educated buyer. Like my grandpa
said �mistakes in life are paid with money�.
I'm not denying these things occur occasionally. What your advertising here and on youtube is not fearmongering it's marketing. Obviously, you are good at it, and apparently, you guys make a good engine or so people say. All of these things can be true while also acknowledging the likelihood of a catastrophic event is small, comparing it to smoking is a straw man.
1937-
You must understand I'm not into marketing, I'm an educational technology professional and it's my desire to help people learn. My FT job is not with Flat 6 nor The Knowledge Gruppe. I'm not denying that people will come to Flat 6 Innovations because of my work with Jake Raby, but that's not the primary goal with these videos. I originally approached Jake after the PCA released the videos on Porsche IMS bearings and encouraged him to continue to make new videos to help people learn about these cars. And, it's NOT all about engine failures either. The Focus On: M9X Engine Assembly has helped hundreds of people learn how to rebuild these engines in their own garages. Yes, we have to charge for those videos and print material because it costs a lot of money to produce professional-level videos and books. However, we do offer many free videos on YouTube and the monetization of YouTube is one small way to help offset the costs associated with this type of work.
I guess I am slightly confused by the suggestion they are marketing a product. What exactly are they marketing? Right now even if you wanted you can�t get a spot until 2023 and you can�t even do that because they are not filling these spots yet. FSI seems to have no issues filling their calendar, so I am not sure what they are doing is marketing.
Not sure bore scoring would be categorized as a "catastrophic event" but nonetheless I would love to see a controlled experiment where some number, say 25-50, randomly selected non turbo 996 models are professionally bore scoped regardless of any symptoms. Would love to see the results and I would wager $ its a much higher % than the naysayers think. I seem to remember Jake as well as Tony C. say that virtually every one they see, even the elective builds, show signs of scoring. The answer is out there and I am willing to volunteer my 03 4s for an elective scoping. It runs perfectly at 56k miles, burns 0 oil, and never makes a tick.
Exactly! You nailed it! Even in crazy economic times, people are contacting them about filling spots for his engines. And people don't know that he spends as much time building Porsche/VW aircooled engines as he does the watercooled stuff.
I can say without a shadow of a doubt, that they would be perfectly fine without the involvement with YouTube or his classes. Jake Raby has spent the better part of 30+ years establishing a strong reputation for quality that supersedes anything accomplished through his classes or technical videos.
That's what I'm talking about. Better do a rebuild my engines got scoring. Better pull my IMS it's gonna go, If you expect someone to take that claim seriously show the evidence to support it otherwise it's hyperbole. If that was true these cars are junk, maybe they are, probably not.
From my very comfortable armchair it seems like those among us who see the the world as absolutely black or white will not allow Jake to simultaneously help people as well as promote his business. The fact that Jake is busy enough to charge eyebrow-raising prices for his engines bothers certain people. To those people - do you think Jake could charge those prices if people turned him down? The man has a system and it works for him. He's not trying to be the next world-beater, it's just Jake doing Jake and making a comfortable living. I'm happy for him. I aspire to work entirely within my own system - it seems like a dream. As someone who is competing among the top of my professional field I completely understand why Jake makes some of the decisions he makes. What people don't realize is if you're the best-of-the-best, (not calling myself that,) it doesn't mean that only the top tier 1% of clients reach out to you. Every professional that offers a service on this board is nodding their head right now - you eternally deal with the general public. There's a reason why I demand 50% payment up font at this stage in my career.
I see nothing wrong with the "marketing" strategy you are using with education on the 996 issues to drive engine rebuild sales. Nor do I see any issue with selling your knowledge thru videos. The market will dictate what they will pay for it. This is good old fashioned capitalism at its best.
The only thing I ask is that you tighten up the videos to get to the content. Jake's style is folksy with a lot of stories. Nothing wrong with that. Just tighten up the stories and content to get to the "meat". Love watching the videos but it is darn tough to dedicate the length of time. Don't be afraid to script it and edit it to make it shorter and to the point. Your injector cleaner video was 25 min and it could have been 12.5. In addition, I am still not certain what the message was. Whatever your headline is, you better make sure you address it.
The PROBLEM, shapes the NEED, for the SOLUTION, and here is HOW you use the SOLUTION to solve the PROBLEM.
What's the PROBLEM
What NEED is derived from the PROBLEM
What's the SOLUTION
Here is HOW you use the SOLUTION to solve the PROBLEM
😊
This is very simple. The people here that have a beef with me (none of which are purchasers and won't be) state that the way we do things regarding support to secondary, or even tertiary owners of our engines isn't acceptable.
I will make this very clear. We give the ORIGINAL PURCHASER 100% of all supporting documents, to include copies of the proposal, invoices, all dyno data, every photo of the entire process, and all the technical directives for the first 120,000 miles after our work is done. This is done via a USB key that Jud attached to the customers ignition key when the car comes home. If the customer purchases the copy of their engine log, and blueprints, all of this is included, right down to the camshaft plots, and cylinder head port flows graphs.
NO ONE ELSE in this whole freaking industry does this.
Now, if someone would like to explain why I should support an engine YEARS afterward when the vehicle is sold, when we already gave this level of information to the purchaser, I am all ears. The owner is told that this information is to be safeguarded, copied, and retained and will not be available to future purchasers. This is no secret.
That said, I'm not willing to hire additional office staff for the sole purpose of maintaining a data base to provide information to people who were never our customer, when the information has been lost by someone else.
I don't sit behind a desk here, I build engines. I'm not going to take time away from my tasks to replace lost paperwork, and there's no way that the person who wants this paperwork would be willing to pay what my time is worth to break away from an engine, to reproduce the paperwork.
If we were like most people we'd want the new owner to come calling, so we could sell them some papers, some oil, some parts, or some of whatever. Nope. When we are done, we want to be done. We will support our original purchaser until he sells the vehicle, but after that, nope. He is our customer, and we are faithful to him. He paid for that.
Now, on the topic of the car on BaT not bring as much money as it should due to my engine, well that engine was built in 2013 and was sold for roughly 1/2 then, what it costs today. On top of that, the buyer didn't know that we don't support tertiary owners, because he is friends with one of our customers that are in work now, and he had that customer ask me how he can get supporting information... He had no clue.
Here's a copy and paste from his ticket less than 1 hour ago:
"Thanks for the follow up Jake. I am having a harder time containing my excitement as we get closer to completion! Look forward to getting my care and feeding instruction for #88!
On a separate note a friend of mine just bought a car on BAT that has one of your built motors in it. How would he go about getting the correct info regarding his engines instructions. The seller was not the owner who commisioned the build."
That said, the whole BaT ad for the car was wrong, the engine isn't even a 4.0~
I appreciate the input. For the record, everything I do with my FT job is fully scripted. Projects take months to years to produce because of our attention to detail. And, people pay top dollar for those services. Jake is too busy running his businesses to go through the time-consuming scripting process nor do I have time to spend editing every video down to the bare minimum. It doesn't pay enough. For example, the 10-part Focus On: IMS Bearing Series has paid me a total of $50 from YouTube. That's it! It took months to produce that for very little return. How much time would you devote to a project knowing, in the end, you're only getting $50? That's the challenge with this resource and why we need everyone's support. Are you a paid member of Rennvision? I know you're a subscriber. That would be a start IMHO. Again, YouTube has a very low ROI, but I love doing it if it helps someone out with their cars.
I just spent the last two months using my spare time to release this fall's Rennvision technical videos. I hope you enjoy them in spite of the length and redundancy. But again, thank you for the input and support!
btw... releasing a new M97 bearing video tonight. Check it out.
Haha, just say what you are trying to say, most of us are intelligent people.
It is comical the FOMO is so intense that people are frothing at the mouth for a chance to make themselves feel better about not owning one of these engines.
hahahahaha, you are dense. I did say it, it's an ad. If I wanted one I'd have it.
Its common for a business to not transfer warranty or support...It's a business.
I'm not using a script. If a script is used, then anyone can convey the information, and I don't need to waste my time. I want my delivery to be straight from my brain housing group, straight from my personal experiences, and what is burned into my brain. I want these things conveyed with the proper body language, and accents. That isn't possible with a script, or a freaking teleprompter.
We shot the entire "Focus on M9X Engine Assembly" video series without a single piece of written information. Could it have been done with less time if it had been scripted, yes. Would it have been the way that I wanted it to be conveyed- nope.
The same thing happens in my classes. I do 4 days in a classroom with each day 10+ hours long. I do the entire class without a single damn note. Not a single piece of paper. I know the content, so I don't have to cheat, and I don't need notes to "play the part".
You can absolutely wait until a used one comes up for sale, but that doesn�t happen often. You will pay market price, which given how few are in the market is pure speculation as to what you will pay at the time.
And yes if you can make it through the interview process and get on the list sometime in 2023 you can have one.
My point is that it isn�t easy and most are discouraged by something that isn�t easy, especially when it cost lots of $ on top of not being easy. A lot of those same people are envious of anyone who has the patience and $. The only way those people can make themselves feel better, is�well you see it here.
This thread started on a link for one that sold for 37k.....Why would I be envious that you waited to buy an engine? The dollar amount is inconsequential. I don't care what you own, most people don't. If I cared what people thought about my car I'd have a Lambo or a Ferrari, not a 996. I bought this car on a lunch break in 10-minute deal, cause a friend bought a nicer car. The only reason it's not for sale is my kids like playing in it and dealing with used Porsche buyers is a PITA�well you see it here.
The original point stands car mods don't increase value, even if it's by a reputable craftsman.
That engine had been pulled from a crashed car, gone through 2 other sets of hands, and had all the ancillaries stripped from it. It was also originally built in the 2013 era, and is 2 generations of development behind where we are today.
No comp here. Sorry.
OK - I am not assessing any value or if it was a great or terrible buy, I have no idea - just a transaction of a used engine. Sounds like it lived a tough life.
The
seller
set that price and by all indications received the asking price within a month.
I won�t even bother with the childish attempt at using one of my quotes as an insult.
How many days does your month have ?
The thing was worth what someone was willing to pay. I think safe to say - wasn’t MORE than 15K, then again… who knows.
A friend once bought a Hank Aaron from someone for asking price of $300, he would have paid way more, but all the guy wanted was $300. The card ended up grading out well and sold for $5k. The sellers asking price was in no way indicative of worth or what my friend the buyer was willing to pay for the card.
It doesn�t matter if it is a baseball card or an engine, basing value off of a sellers asking price isn�t a good way to say what to establish value. I will add that same card is now probably worth $7-8k so in that instance my friends sale price of $5k didn�t represent future value.
If it sold for $15k stripped on ancillaries in 2020 and FSI did the work in 2013, I'm guessing the seller got most if not all of the original investment back. It's not fair to compare $15k to 2021 FSI prices, the question is what did this rebuild cost 8 years ago and what did all the ancillaries sell for on top of the $15k for the block. YES or NO, 2 exactly similar 996 models, one with a stock engine with 50k miles and one with a FSI engine put in at 45k miles that now reads 50k, should they be worth the same?
In 2013 that engine cost 10K less than it does today, and it made 20HP less than the same engine (stage and level of options) does today.
As costs have gone up, we are replacing more and more components, and getting more and more power through cylinder head, and piston/ piston ring development.
Actually, I looked it up and that engine sold in 2012, not 2013.
Another thing to note, the FSI engine was listed on April 1st, 2020 (no pun intended) when the economy started to tank in reaction to the in-shelter mandates related to the first round of COVID-19. Demand dropped while supplies increased. It was a good time to buy a car. I know, I bought my daughter a used Volvo SUV during that time for about half of what you can find them today in Sep of 2021. I've been looking for the past 6 months for another one but none are available. Have two people in my family asking me to help. In fact, many of the dealerships in my area have zero new inventory. Surviving on mostly service and what little used inventory they can find.
B3: So many people today need that instant download so they can absorb about half of the information then click over to FB, Twitter, Tik-Tok...etc. I appreciate the additional information I get from Jake on the vids that takes the additional time. I don't required a condensed down version. Of course I'm old so...
In today�s world anyone with a smartphone has access to the answers to almost any question right in the palm of their hand, yet the population is less educated than ever.
�If you make something idiot-proof they will make a better idiot�
I wonder how many people who use the phrase �OK Boomer� are still living with or being supported by their Boomer parent(s)
well I don�t work hard for my money my money works hard for me. This week along I got almost $9500 in dividends, the biggest where COP and PSX. Anyway I lost on buying a National PCA instructor 1999 996 race car with a Joe Anselmos Motorsports 3.4
rebuilt that puts around 330 hp out of the box the engine only had 250 miles. I lost that one by $250. I also lost on a 997 Carrera S also by $250. Honestly I can **** $250 that�s a few bar taps for me, but as Jake I am discipline about money and on both cars I had a number , both went for more so I didn�t chase them. Just about everyone that has a Jake engine and I have spoken too, seems to be happy and satisfied. If I run across one of his engines and I can get it for a deal I will, but I ain�t going to overpay for it. This formula has work for me all of my life and I ain�t changing it. Anyway I need to finish washing my car, going to test drive a
09 Carrera S in the morning and Then cars and coffee. Oh by the way everyone here said my cars ticking noise was bore scoring and it was not. I can wait to drive it because I gave her some high octane 104 race fuel. Good night everyone.
My dog is named Boomer. Didn�t think that through well as we have an older population in our neighborhood and I am out front yelling for �Boomer� quite frequently.
This is the TECHNICAL FORUM…..another FSI engine blah blah blah…… ( not knocking FSI ) this thread is way off topic,I’m out,I have to check my portfolio…..😳
Someone called me "Boomer" the other day and I had no idea what it even meant. For years my age held me back, everyone thought I was 20+ years too young to have my knowledge. At events I've had people ask for Mr. Raby and I would tell them that was me.. They'd say "Oh, I was looking for your dad"...
I seriously wanted to dye my hair gray and needed some wrinkles to get any respect, no matter what I had done.
