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YOUR RESEARCH996.2 4S engine swap to a mezger
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Try comparing a e30 M3 LS Swapped car for sale to a s14 original engine'd model for example...You'll see a big difference in not only asking price but the amount of time it sits out for sale.
Leading evidence: 'Replace car' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'custom tune this is going' (1 discussions; 0 report identifying it and 1 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check finds the cylinder wear worthy of attention' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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In fact just before LS swaps became popular or trendy on the 996, I saw a 996 ls swapped car sell for just $12k on eBay a few years ago.
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But those ain't cheap either in used/salvaged or new form.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
The logic of just buy a Turbo/GT3 doesn't seem to apply now that a 996 roller is 8k and used gt3 engines are 20k.
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If the engine has to be opened up and new pistons and new cams fitted, and a suitable intake and exhaust system obtained and probably a custom tune this is going to add considerable to the cost of this "swap".
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Flat-6 is not that low, it's a tad higher to start off with, I'd also have to consider the transport from Canada and back and then the Canadian customs charge on the repair based of the value the car.
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Try comparing a e30 M3 LS Swapped car for sale to a s14 original engine'd model for example...You'll see a big difference in not only asking price but the amount of time it sits out for sale.
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custom tune this is going
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If the engine has to be opened up and new pistons and new cams fitted, and a suitable intake and exhaust system obtained and probably a custom tune this is going to add considerable to the cost of this "swap".
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It's been brought up before, but those are some ancient threads now. The logic of just buy a Turbo/GT3 doesn't seem to apply now that a 996 roller is 8k and used gt3 engines are 20k.
I have a great shape 02 C4S with an interior that looks like its a brand new car. Problem is it is worthless without a properly running engine. I believe this particular model is a gem of the modern water cooled cars with maybe only the 997.1 GT3/RS competing in looks with it.
With the red stripe across the back not some funny thin strip and wonky looking tail lights. It's got to become a classic.
With that and the combination of a mezger, this car would have the best of both worlds.
Anyone done this? Would it now be something to consider doing it if say a engine and tranny could be picked up for 25k.
Would be so cool. Cool enough that is and when my 3.4L in the C4 goes bye bye then this would be considered. More HP more RPM and track worthy. The differences would be the oil tank dry sump plumbing. and I would imagine ECU. Should bolt right up to the C4 Transmission. add a rad up front not to terribly hard.
Given the way people are it is very likely someone somewhere has done this.
But the only Mezger engine I'm aware of is from the 996 Turbo and early 997 Turbo and these are not cheap. Replacement costs have been quoted in the $50K range though admittedly I have not bothered to seek any confirmation of this by say getting a quote from my local dealer for a replacement engine for my Turbo.
If one leaves the turbos attached there's the fit issue and how to route air to the intercoolers. The "plumbing" of a 996 Turbo is quite amazing. I've seen the engine out of these cars and how Porsche fit everything in that engine compartment is a work of art.
If one removes the turbos the engine will be down on power. It will have just a 9.something:1 compression ratio and have the torque of an import economy sedan.
The engine could of course be opened up and higher compression pistons fitted and at the same time suitable camshafts for a NA engine fitted. The DME would likely need reprogramming to get the best from this engine.
If your car's engine is sick or dead you have my sincerest sympathies. There are things you can do to get the car back on the road if that is what you want to do that don't involve trying to adapt a pretty different animal of engine into the car.
If your car's engine is healthy you need to step away from the keyboard and spend more time enjoying your car. This place is affecting your mind.
My engine is a clanker, goes away at about 1800 rpm. Mezger engines are in all 996/997 GT3's and well as Turbos exluding 997.2 Turbos
I am only taking about using a used engine say from a reputable dismantler.
I hear you about the extra fit issue of the Turbos though also bigger expense to acquire coolers and plumbing. I wonder how much hp that engine produces with out the turbos.
I recommended this setup some time ago to another C4S RL member IIRC as I came across a full setup at the time for $18k. I would've done it myself but couldn't justify replacing a perfectly good motor with it.
I'd say go for it if you have the funds and resources.
There was a used GT3 motor listed here a few weeks back for 28K I think. Would be a fun project for someone who plans to keep their car. As you said a 4S roller isn't worth much without an engine sadly.
Macster what are the differences of the stock GT3 Metzger and a turbo Metzger? Internals? Tuning? the 996 Gt3 made 380hp and 284tq. Some have said the dynode higher, Porsche always listed conservatively.
Swap engine/trans, wiring harness, and ecu. Everything should bolt in.
Going to have to build the motor to n/a spec. I assume most the used motors are from turbos.
I'm going to bet that this is going to be a $30k swap.
GT3 motor would be optimal. 380 hp for the 996 or 415 for the 997.1. Looking at the 996tt and I am guessing it would be 200-230 hp without the turbos. Main difference in the lower compression level and lower redline. Any of the GT3 motors and it would make it feel like a rocket compared to the 320 hp m96 engine.
30k swap is much cheaper option then replacing it with a 996tt or gt3 and given the 4S away for practically nothing.
You can re-sleeve your engine to 3.8-4.0 for half the price. Not sure it makes sense sourcing all the necessary parts for a used Metzger when you can rebuild with new stronger cylinders, forged pistons and billet rods. You wont have a dry sump motor but you can add always add an Accusump.
What kind of a bench racing Civic forum BS is this? Why would you want to run a boosted engine in a N/A form? I would become terribly. The turbos are not only there to add HP but to make the engine run properly. The camshafts are designed for boost and so.Is the rest of the head. Never mind the low compression. If you going to do a swap, get a complete donor car and transfer everything.
Well, could replace the turbo with Nitrous... Although the cams would still need to be replaced, and keeping in mind the engine would be a dog any time the nitrous isn't engaged.
I've only dynoed once after break in miles. With front drive decoupled we got 298 tq. and 327 hp at the rear wheels. Factor in parasitic loss of what 8-10%? I'm no expert in this area. The 3 runs were done in May in humid South Florida weather on a dynojet.
With motor cost alone you would have to "really love" you're c4s. Otherwise sale it as roller and buy a turbo. With the price you'd have to pay for the motor, and the cash from you're c4s you'd be looking at nice well sorted turbo for that coin.
I had forgotten about the GT3 engines. But those ain't cheap either in used/salvaged or new form.
A 996 Turbo engine without the turbos and with no other mods would I dare say produce less power than a NA 3.6l engine. How much less I don't know.
High compression pistons would bring back the low end torque and perk up the throttle response some. The saying is we buy HP but drive torque and that's why a high torque engine is such a nice drive.
New cams would get the engine breathing right absent the turbos. A suitable exhaust would be necessary to address that end of the engine. Oh and some suitable intake system installed. I do not know if the intake from a NA engine would bolt right on or not. Probably not.
Given the likely premium price the engine would command, the cost of the pistons and cams and exhaust and DME programming would one would really have to really want a Mezger engine in is non-Mezger engine car.
Oh probably before the engine was installed in its new home, err car, the coolant fitting pipes would need to be pinned to forestall these leaking at some point.
If it didn't already exist a 3rd radiator would not be a bad idea but really at this point the Mezger engine is probably producing no more power (and heat) than the 3.4l/3.6l engine it replaced.
But to take your mind off the cost once you have the Mezger engine installed you can worry about the bolts that hold the gear to the layshaft coming loose or the gear key falling out and the engine self-destructing...
19k for a 3.6 gt3 engine. There is no way I could get a decent Turbo for that price. 50-55k will get your a nice Turbo and the interior probably still wouldn't be to the same level as my 4S.
Yes I agree, you'd have to complicate things and transfer everything over or rebuilt the turbo block with gt3 parts both these paths are way to expensive. Adding all the turbo's coolers, plumbing makes it a lot more work. I've all ready concluded a bunch of posts back that the gt3 engine is the only way to go. It may end up costing 5k more then a flat-6 job but in the end it will have a much more durable motor, no ims at all and a higher redline.
Well and at that price it makes sense, unless there is something under the skin that we are all missing? And, assuming you can find one of those engines when you need one.
*oh and I mean "that makes sense" in that I'm assuming the person it makes sense to has the money to do it. For me, that doesn't make sense, and if the engine did go on my car I'd buy a flat screen tv and some fans so that I can pretend to drive it in the garage.
=)
I think it's an interesting option when you consider between a Jack Raby rebuild at around 20k or a used Mezger at same $$$. Though with the install it would likely be more overall for similar power.
Now what about a Mezger + Supercharger? I saw a used GT3 engine on ebay for 18k and just recently there was a supercharger in the classifieds here for 2.5k. Now that would be killer.
But if it was my money and I was itching for this kind of a crazy project I'd buy a cheap NC Miata, swap a 2.5 into it, and then add FI. That would be good for 350+ hp at rear wheels in a 2300lbs car. Should be quite amazing and probably quite a bit below the cost of just the Mezger engine alone.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-911-...86162c&vxp=mtr
I starts making sense when you look at the alternatives for a long term keeper. I bought and financed it new, probably paid 3 times the msrp on it before it was finally paid off. If I got rid of it now at bottom of the barrel prcing and in 20 years people are paying 50k for a roller that needs a full restore because the are now in fashion I be kicking myself.
It seems a used Mezger would be a better starting point, and personally I'm not sure a JR engine would be worth the extra money.
The problem with adding a super/turbo is the same as taking one out. The engine would need to be rebuilt with one in mind.
I'm not sure these cars are going to be that collectable in that time. Maybe I will be wrong, who knows.
The engines could be worth something though, which is where I'd place the investment.
But yeah if you can swing that motor it would be pretty fun.
Flat-6 is not that low, it's a tad higher to start off with, I'd also have to consider the transport from Canada and back and then the Canadian customs charge on the repair based of the value the car. I agree though for a USA car it would probably save you about 10k vs the gt3 engine.
A forced-induction GT3 engine in a 911 vs. a 2.5 liter turbocharged Miata are not equal. You could buy a Dodge SRT-4 and stuff a huge snail under the hood, but at the end of the day, it's still a Neon. Sure, Miatas are popular with the SCCA autocross folks, but a blown Miata is a toy; a FI GT3 is a weapon.
Maybe the elusive "Jack Raby" can chime in here.
Jakes motors only make sense for peeps that don't live near a track.
GT3 motor has been proven several times over several years in several cup series that it can survive a full race season at sustained high rpm's.
Also, I believe there are some warranty exclusions on Jake's basic motors if taken on the track.
BTW turbocharging or supercharging a GT3 motor is like adding forced induction to a Type-R motor. Wrong application for the wrong motor IMO... And you will never be able to track that thing for more than a few laps without heat issues.
Generally just a swap of pistons is required to raise the compression ratio. Now I'm not sure high compression pistons suitable for use in the Mezger engine exist. I have never had any reason to research this.
If say pistons from the NA engine have to be used, this could require rod change, as the NA pistons fitted to the Turbo rods may not be a viable pairing.
Barring this though, there is no reason to touch the rods.
There is no reason to touch the cylinders either unless a check finds the cylinder wear worthy of attention. (This assumes the cylinders do not require some "attention" to accommodate the new pistons.)
The same applies to the crank. If a check of the main and rod journals finds any worn then this has to be addressed. But there is no reason to touch the crank otherwise.
Now in spite of the above there could be scenarios in which one encounters a can of worms. New high compression pistons might require cylinder machining.
The new pistons could also require new rods to properly fit and new rods might result in some issues between the rods and crank that could then require the crank receive some machining or even replacement.
For the specifics you would need to speak to an engine builder who has gone down this route before and has the actual experience to call upon to detail just what is involved.
Heh. You're one of the only guys on the Internet who can actually get away with making this suggestion without the "you have no idea what you'd be in for" treatment.
I'm sure you pay a piston manufacturer enough and they can make the pistons, that's not an issue.
I'll have to ask my shop sometime or another tuning shop that gets into turbos. If/when I get around to it.
Sure, that is I'm pretty sure the pistons could be had could be custom made if none from existing engines the 996 NA or some other Porsche engine were available.
But at what cost? And on top of the other costs arising from converting a turbo-charged Mezger engine into something suitable for use in a car where turbo-charging is not a viable option.
This thread started with the OP thinking he could keep the price to IIRC $25K this for the engine and transmission.
If the engine has to be opened up and new pistons and new cams fitted, and a suitable intake and exhaust system obtained and probably a custom tune this is going to add considerable to the cost of this "swap".
Also, it could be leaving the stock pistons in service might not be that awful. With the right cam possibly helped with a custom "tune" combined with an appropriate intake and exhaust system the engine might deliver acceptable performance with its low compression pistons.
But even fitting new cams, and coming up with a suitable intake and exhaust system and the tune to make the most of these is not going to be cheap.
Dependents on the state and feelings of the engine and if it has any alcohol issues before. Sometimes a drink would be in order, but other times, based on history, it may be best to talk with it and address it's feelings or send it to counseling.
Only a fool will warranty an engine on the track... Or someone who has to do, and say anything to sell an engine. As soon as the tires of a car touch a track, for any purpose, my warranty is over. This is agreed upon up front, and in bold text in every proposal I have done since 1997. Unless I am in the car with someone, I never know what actually occurred, and warranting a track engine just starts a finger pointing, he said, she said war, which I avoid at all costs.
Most of my owners avoid the track while under warranty and then have fun, or they avoid it for 5-8 months and then end the warranty, knowing there are no issues.
We don't have failures. I have experienced 3 on- track failures since my program started. One of those had 200 hours on it and lost an AOS, another had an oil pump drive break (before we had the billet oil pump drives, which resulted from this failure) and the most recent had an OEM crankshaft fail. All of those were outside of what their warranty period would have been even IF they would have had one.
If I was doing a swap, I'd go straight to something else too, like an LS. Why? Because all the conversion complications, check engine lights, and phantom issues are LESS than you'd have with a 9a1 engine.
We've been working with the 9a1 internally since early 2010 and have developed the only 4.2L in the world from the base. The 9a1 doesn't impress me. At all.
Thanks Jake for the clarification. Why would anyone even consider this. Just save the money and buy a GT3 or a Turbo car. All this is non-sense, this ain't the Honda forum, putting a skyline motor in a Camry, lol.
No. I do not consider nitrous injection a tune. That is an engine mod on par with super or turbo charging. It requires considerable plumbing work to install and ensure it works as it is supposed to.
Besides it is not really a suitable street mod. It is really a track -- specifically a drag strip track -- mod where one needs the boost nitrous provides for just a short time.
hmm, that may be worth looking into. All though I'd probably be best off going to see a Corvette mechanic to do it. I have a good one locally so I'd probably have to inquire about it. It would end up as a very hard car to sell in 20 years probably better off having a Gt3 engine.
Why the disdain for the 9A1s? I don't have much experience driving pre 987/997 cars but the 987.2/981 and 997.2/991 engines to me have a nice character and power output to them.
Compared to the engines from Japanese or other German brands, I like the responsiveness, the way they rev and the sound they make as they approach redline and based on internet discussion anyway we haven't seen much in the way of issues or failures.
So is the dislike more from a design perspective, do you see certain comprises or cost cutting measures made, etc?
I've seen this many times with Chevys in various cars over the years. Once they get older and less common, people tend to look for cars that at least have the same manufacturer engine in it. Seen it many times over the years with Datsun 240z's, e30 m3's, Jaguars, Land Rovers, etc.
Because of Porsche's philosophy change in "business first and engineers second" continues. It is what saved Porsche from bankruptcy and turned it to the highest gross margin per vehicle sold in the world.
No one is disputing that Porsche continues to sell an excellent product today. It is just that it's method of operation has changed.
But there is a market for those cars with a larger crate engine, if they don't have matching numbers anymore. In this case, IIRC, the engine is a dud and the car is more or less a roller, so matching goes out the window.
If anything in the future it would be worth it either for the engine or the body, depending on how things progress.
Fair enough, but as an Engineer (electrical albeit and not mechanical) I'd like to hear some technical justification on what makes say the previous gen engines better than the current gen. And not referring to the mezgers but the M96 or M97 vs 9A1
P.S. Sorry to OP if this is going off-topic
Short term yes, but OP and I are discussing long term as I'm sure OP is looking to keep the car around for awhile.
I've seen historical actual data to back this up over and over again in relation to SBC swaps.
In fact just before LS swaps became popular or trendy on the 996, I saw a 996 ls swapped car sell for just $12k on eBay a few years ago. I'm sure now that person could've easily gotten over $20k for it.
Try comparing a e30 M3 LS Swapped car for sale to a s14 original engine'd model for example...You'll see a big difference in not only asking price but the amount of time it sits out for sale.
M96 and 97s are not as reliable as 9A1s because it has more moving parts from a design standpoint.
Right now it is unfair to compare engine reliability because M96 and 97s have been out longer so weaknesses in design would be more prevalent in the marketplace as opposed to 9A1s.
Time will tell which one of these power plants is more reliable. However, we are not hearing much about 9A1 failing. There are some reporting on the forum but not as much as the M96 and 97 complaints.
Not sure if it helps but one's personal opinion of engine reliability is if that engine crapped out in you or not. 9A1, M96, M97 or a Mezger...
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