Bore scoping results: What next? (Pics added)

What do you guys think? Full rebuild? Or drive till it is just about to grenade and then full rebuild? �We just fiished the borescoping, I am working on uploading those photos. All cylinders are showing equal wear/ slight scoring, with cylinder 5 being the worst. It is not excessive enough to cause piston slap, but some scoring is definitely present. We can also see oil on the bank 2 spark plugs, and a puff of blue smoke was present at first start in the morning. There is some oil residue on the back of exhaust valves. With this information, it suggests that the engine can have valve guide / valve sealing issues.� EDIT: Posting the pictures below. EDIT 2: Adding quotes for engine rebuilds below.

I wouldn't drive it "until it grenades" to decide to rebuild simply because collateral damage from a failure can make your rebuild much more costly. My two.

I had the same issue and rebuilt the engine......It's all about money. Can you afford to do it or not. I had the funds so I did it. My car now is incredible and plan to drive it for many years!

Find the Jake Raby series on �living with bore scoring� and see if you think that applies to you. How many miles on the car, and do you love the car?

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car has 77k miles and is otherwise in pristine shape, and yes, I don�t mind the cost and was planning on keeping it. More of a question of efficiency. Wondering what maintenance work I should still get done now to buy me some time versus hold off until rebuild. it�s also a question of how much a rebuild would cost. I was going to have the all of this done within the next few weeks for anywhere from $6k-$12k of investment, and the question is at this point if I should or put the money straight into rebuild with Nickies. List below does not include items that I�m doing for suspension et cetera: - Coolant tank & hoses - Sparks & Coils - Water Pump replacement - UAOS-E install - Power steering reservoirs & fluids, belt and tensioners - Secondary Air Injection Pump - Engine Drive belt and pulleys What still makes sense now, if any of it? And for how long? Let�s also keep in mind that the engine runs & sounds just fine, and the scoring at this point is still minimal. But yea, I was going to put that money in now anyway (and more given I�m also doing suspension).

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how much did it cost you? And as per my post above, how did you approach those items that would need done anyway?

I wouldn�t bother with the SAI pump. It�s easy to diagnose and replace. Not so the various vacuum lines, hoses, and valves that are part of the SAI system, which are vexatious to diagnose and replace.

I would go ahead and rebuild and replace all those items and more. Rebuild with Nickies will likely cost $15 - $25K these days.

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I had the engine sent to have the cylinders treated. My Total cost was about 10k. Nothing I planned to do when I bought the car.

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In his video, he suggests to use Valvoline Premium Blue Restore 10W30� would it be okay for me to use 5W-30 or 5W-40 of the same oil too? anyway - after watching that video seems clear I�m going to try to drive it for a few more months through the summer while I�m waiting on the waitlist for rebuild. Seems like a solid plan!

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Would be interesting if you posted the pics of the cylinders when you get them.

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Would you consider a 'Yes, it would be okay' by any other responder than Raby himself of higher credibility than what Raby advises in the video? That's your answer...

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I think the bigger issue is that the oil he suggests cannot be found anywhere. I wasn�t able to locate it in Chicago area. So I�m just wondering what the next best alternative (and grades) is.

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On the NAPA website for the oil it says "If the product is not in the store, then a sales associate can order it for you..."

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If only� it just seems very backordered!

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Since it is a noted diesel engine oil did you try any places that specializes in diesel stuff? Just spitballing here...

Walmart says they have it and could get it to me by Monday. Not sure I would bet on that...

I'll figure it out together with the shop. Maybe they have means of getting a hold of it. I'm sure there are otherwise alternatives that will get me through the short Chicago summer and into the rebuild. The scoring is very mild (I'm about to upload pictures here), so I'm hoping I can run it for 2-3 months in gentle road-driving only.

Pictures added

That looks like very mild scoring to me, somewhat bordering on scuffing. I think you should have no issued driving the car for a while and just save up for the rebuild in the future. For reference, a friend of mine has a much more advanced scoring we found but burns very little oil and the car is tracked. Go figure.

If it was me, I would just drive it. Why do you want to spend all of that money on it? You probably don't drive it in the winter because of Chicago, and most likely you won't put 5K miles a year on it. I have a 99, don't know what year your car is, I'm not going to change my IMS bearing, do oil analysis and probably have the onset of bore scoring on the left bank. Once I have real issues, I'll buy a Porsche short block and rebuild it myself. I'm not going to throw $20K on it now when it is perfectly good in the condition it is in.

I am betting a fingernail won't catch any of that, keep driving it and do oil samples at oil changes.

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After seeing the pics I agree with others. Drive it, do what you can to keep it from getting worse, and monitor it. As far as getting the oil, I am sure you can order it online somewhere. I use driven oil in my 996 and literally nowhere sells it, at least that I know of, so I have no choice but to buy it online.

The best way to monitor engine health on this engine is to do scheduled "blow-by tests" and used oil analysis. The blow-by test will tell you the real world functioning of the cylinder/rings sealing capability. See this thread for "how-to".. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...hlight=blow-by Looking at those pictures of the cylinders, I would do a blow-by test and UOA to get a base-line and drive the snot out of it while doing regular monitoring..

That's not scoring...this is scoring😜 My former #6: I agree with the above drive it and monitor appropriately. It won't get better but yours doesn't look extremely urgent.

Love this community! Thank you for all the candid opinions! I understand both camps here - but I do want a rebuild in the next 2-3 years anyway, and with the initial scoring present I will go with all the recommendations of monitoring it - but out of an abundance of caution will not be stretching it past 2023 to have the rebuild complete! In the meantime I am going to run the heavier oil, go more frequent on changes, use Sea Foam on fill ups and do a few things to the car that aren�t �lost money� with the rebuild down the line! super excited to have this adventure 996 and hoping that over the next years I can build my own garage to do work myself, but living in downtown Chicago just doesn�t give me the space! I think about the cost of the rebuild as �value of the gained reliability/longevity� as opposed to going the �reactive maintenance� route. Plus I�m planning on making this a full track vehicle so the added performance and parts have hobby-value too!

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that looks terrible� I want to avoid waiting until that point! Am I also seeing a bit of cracking in the bottom left of the picture?

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Yeah! I agree too. Plan, get on a list, but enjoy it in the meantime. More scoring! 2003 with 137,000 km.

Nope. No cracking just horrible scoring. The sound when running was similar to a very loose old John Deere single cylinder tractor.

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premium blue made by Valvoline is Cummins engine factory fill Diesel engine oil. I retired from Valvoline. Go to advanced auto parts, autozone or o Reilly and buy you 2 5 quart jugs, Walmart also sells it. The correct viscosity is 15w40. If you want specific explanations of why that oil and etc just let me know. If I was you I would also run CRC GDI thru the intake and some Techron thru the fuel tank. If you like sea foam use sea foam instead. Do all of this before changing the oil. After you get all done and the oil changed with premium blue go ahead and put new plugs on it. I think you can drive it for a while.

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PM'd you

See also: You Tube You Tube

Alright� so I started asking around for rebuild options, which have been discussed at length on this forum (RND, FSI, EBS, Vertex, Porsche, �)! However, the market changes every year and particularly 2022/2023 seems to be the worst year to chose a rebuild. My first quote comes in from a reputable Chicago-area shop with long history of M96/97 rebuilds (respecting the privacy here): - RND Engine (based on comparisons probably the gold standard out there): $21.9K for 3.6, $23.9K for 4.0 (+ $2K for some crank upgrades to accommodate the added power) - Flat fee for engine removal and reinstall: $5700 All in all, a 4.0L RND engine installed will cost you over 30.000$; A 3.6L build will come in at only 4000$ less. I�m not saying this is a lot or little, just leaving the info here as a data point.

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This could be lower. The rest seems in line with the market.

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How much lower?

Well, lets assume shop time is $150/hr ( could be a low estimate these days) That is 38 hours of work for $5700 Even a slow deliberate removal of an engine on a 911 would be no more than 8 hours (and I am being really generous) Same for the re-install. 8x2x$150=$2400 Even at $200/hr that is only $3200 so yeah, seems high to me.

Do the rebuilt engines have all the ancillary bits attached, or are they just a long block? Perhaps that's where the disparity is.

I would check to see if the flat rate includes any items not listed outright.

3.6 shortblock from Porsche is $8600-8900 all day long. You get 2 years / 12k mile warranty with it! 996-100-996-TX = standard 3.4 short block ==>$8100 996-100-951-TX = X51 3.4 short block ==>$8400 996-100-996-XX =X51 3.6 short block 996-100-996- UX = standard 3.6 short block ==> $8900 https://www.sunsetporscheparts.com/o...6l-996100996xx https://teile.com/de/porsche-ersatzt...eilesatz/30484 https://www.sunsetporscheparts.com/o...00996ux?c=az0x

Makes you want to buy one just to keep as a backup.

Plus $7600 core charge... expensive spare.

Ahhhhh... Core charge.... 16k total without handing them back your engine...

I wonder what installed price would be on a short block, assuming your heads didn't need a bunch of work and could be swapped over. Less than 20K for a factory warrantied engine sounds pretty good.

Did I read that right that the x51 3.6 was just a couple of hundred bucks more?

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You did but that doesn't add up if the X51 block was the same as a standard 3.6L block. Probably a part number thing for when X51 package was added to keep continuity.

The problem with the short block route is you're getting an engine with all the same problems that led to you needing an engine replacement in the first place. The only thing that is somewhat corrected is the addition of the 6305 IMS bearing in the new shortblock.

True - to an extent. Excluding the IMS, the main issue necessitating a rebuild seems to be the bore scoring. In most cases it's a product of poor maintenance schedules that has span over ~18+ years and multiple owners. If you're keeping the car and are committed to proper care of the motor and other parts, it will go the distance. Two examples that come to mind are GC996 with his long time owned and heavily tracked 996 or by 911user who is inching closer to 500k miles on the original engine running Mobil1. A rebuild is definitely a great option, especially if you want a displacement bump but carries a higher cost and lead time. For those looking for a stock experience with a warranty this is not a bad option and options are good to have.

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...and the above warranty would most likely be expired before the scoring might occur. Seriously about all that warranty is good for is for infant mortality or poor assembly not inherent design flaws that show up with longer time or miles.

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Totally agree poor maintenance and not exercising the car on a regular basis can accelerate these problems that lead to needing a rebuild. However, bore scoring is a product of many variables not just poor maintenance: 1. Bore composition - Lokasil - NOT as strong and/or durable as Nikasil found in the mezger 996 engines. 2. Piston Skirt Material - this is what starts to go first. Porsche moved to Ferroprint. MISTAKE! It flakes off and this is the beginning of the end of your bores. 3. Piston Offset - while controversial, Porsche used the same offset for both banks of pistons in M9X engines. The thrust side of pistons is affected. One reason while some believe bank2 is more affected. 4. Piston composition - another controversial subject. The 996 Carrera with forged pistons are said to be a contributor to cylinder scoring vs. base 986/987 cars with cast pistons. Heat expansion rates is a factor in this problem. 5. Rod to Stroke Ratio - impacted mk2 996 cars. 6. Cold climate car and hot spots - another claim to why bank2 suffers more. 7. Failing fuel injectors - washes the bores which is of course a negative to lubrication. 8. Garage queen cars and cold start enrichment impact You Tube

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From what I gather there were higher compression pistons (0.5 higher) + improved/built-in oil pan baffling + revised oil passages and small changes... It would be more beneficial to get this over the standard motor since the price is the same.

It would be interesting to understand what it would take from a cost standpoint beyond a few extra hundred dollars to replace a non-x51 engine with an x-51 engine. B3, not suggesting it's a better option than a FSI or LN rebuild which I do not believe to be the case. As to your point, I would prefer more advanced internal parts. But it is an option.

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If I remember correctly from a previous discussion/my own research one of the biggest hurdles is the different ECU. The top end bits are also quite expensive if you can even buy them. The cams alone are going to run thousands. Which at that point you are probably better off just buying some Schrick cams. By far the best way to get an X51 engine is to get a 40AE. They honestly seem to be quite a bargain selling at minimal premiums.

Agree with you. It's "all the other parts and procedures" . Patrick the OP is a pretty smart guy. He's looking at his options to figure out the best course of action. At the end of the day, we will all need a rebuild. My engine is good right now. I want to keep it good. Most of what I bolt onto my engine as I complete my 10 year refresh, needs to be able to be used with a future rebuild. Why waste the money. Along the way, I will take the time to figure out what I want in a rebuild. Unfortunately, Patrick knows its coming sooner due to bore scoring, but he may have a few years to figure it out.

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Thank you and spot on! I definitely wouldn�t want to get into another Lokasil based engine� also, with track use, there are added benefits to not going with a Porsche Shortblock. i don�t know though if prices on these rebuilds will ever go down or become more reasonable. With the size of the business it�s already become, it�s unlikely. So to change my original statement of 2022/2023 seems to be a bad year, I don�t really think it makes a difference. It�s a as �good or bad� as any year to do it.

My plan was to rebuild my engine myself when I retire in 2024. I expected it to have over 100K by then. (Pre-COVID I commuted ~15K per year) I discussed that with my wife, and took the first Knowledge Gruppe M96 rebuild class. Then I bought a 2.7L Boxster engine and Jakes rebuild DVDs, and all the special tools necessary. I rebuilt the 2.7L completely and then tore it down at least 10 times. (spending LOTS of hours) While discussing my future engine build yet again with my wife, she asked me how many hours it would take. I would not be taking any shortcuts, so the “for real” rebuild would take LOT more hours. She said, “so basically you’re going to spend all your first couple of retirement months in the garage? Can’t you pay someone to rebuild it so we can travel instead?” So after discussing it with her I got in line at F6I. She is now familiar with Jake and his daughter from Facebook. She’s a Jake Ruby fan now! I expected to have the FSI engine built about 18 months before my retirement. (FSI estimated completion is Nov 2022) With “Work From Home”, and the current “Economy in the Toilet, What Happened to my Retirement” environment, my retirement target has been extended past 2024. The rebuild timeline, and the mileage on my engine is not what I’d originally expected. But in hindsight, I got in line at F6I at just the right time!

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The 996.2 3.6 X51 is the same short block as the standard 3.6 (except for the x51 sump baffle, thats probably the cost difference) The x51 parts are the heads, cams, intake and exhaust manifolds, and programming of the DME to match. This was also a "Dealer Installed Option " and an "S" was punched at the end of the engine serial number to indicated Dealer Installed X51.. The 996.1 3.4 X51 ( not availible in the US due to wouldn't pass emissions) had different pistons that had a "notch" in them to clear the higher lift cams. Other wise it was the same "short block"..as the standard 3.4.. The X51 parts were the oil baffle, heads, cams, intake and exhaust manifolds, Programming of the DME and also an extra scavenge pump on the bank 2 head...This was also a "Dealer Installed Option" and the "S" was punched after the engine serial number..

Just wanted to attach here my first oil analysis after finding the condition of the engine and doing a bunch of work to it. This is after 1500miles and also after replacing water pump, coolant system, oil change, et cetera et cetera...