roll bar or harness bar?

I realized at my last DE that being more securely attached to the car would help me generate smoother inputs. So...I'm looking at getting harnesses and either a roll bar or a harness bar, along with sport seats. My challenge is to keep this a DD--so I'll need to be able to remove harness bar/roll bar after DEs and this is why I'm looking at sport seats rather than fixed-back seats. I like the safety of a roll bar, but it will be much more difficult to put in/take out regularly. I've heard that some organizations require roll bars when using harnesses. The car is primarily a DD, but I've done three DEs this year and there may be one more. I expect to get further sucked into DEs next year. Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks

The problem with a harness bar is that if the car were to roll over, you have no roof protection, and your head can not flex to the side as with a dot shoulder belt to avoid getting crushed by the roof, hence why many areas are not allowing them anymore. My advice would be to look into a product call angel wings as well as a CG lock. The angel wings is a pad (not really a pad, more a sheet of fabric with a bolster on each end). You set in the seat, and has big bolsters to keep your from sliding side to side when pinched between the door and the center console. Then the CG lock will keep the belt tighter. Saw the combo at the track a few weekends ago and everyone loved them who tried them. In fact, my student was driving a 996 and using one. http://angelwingstech.com/ (unfortunately it looks like the site is being updated).

David- I have a harness bar. I was not using it last weekend but still had the base bolted to the rear struts and the uprights we still there too. Look at the attached linky. https://rennlist.com/forums/for-sale...mount-bar.html This what I have....did not consider the rollbar because we are doing DE's and not Club Racing. I bought a spare rear carpet strip (the one that covers the DME in the back) because when I installed this bar I had to cut into the carpet. Cost was cheap. I have harnesses as well but used the stock belts. Key for me is the fixed back seats. They really keep you planted....but I understand your need for recliners. Boy I think you got the fever bad......and glad to hear it!

Pete: Yeah, I've got the fever--I hope my daughter will be smart enough to fund her own college education! I saw that link and am sorely tempted by it. I already see myself on the slope towards a dedicated track car, so I try to remember not to invest too much in track specific goodies in this car (unless, of course, this becomes the track car). But that is years away. Doc: That's what I heard about harness bars. I wonder how often this has actually occurred with rollovers in cars with harness bars. It makes sense, but I still would like the security of a harness. Those angelwings look like a feasible compromise; I'll have to look them up once their website is back up. Thanks for the advice. What do other blue/red DE'ers without track dedicated cars do? (I'm not that fast yet, but am planning ahead...)

David: As they say, what price can you put on safety? You decide. The harness bar will be much simpler to install and easier to remove. With the roll bar, depending on what version, (I think there are one or two reputable roll bars that have removeable harness sections, you will most likely lose access to the rear seats, which can be troubling, depending on what/who you carry if the harness bar section is not removed. An RL'er has a Tequipment Roll Bar for sale in the FS section, very good price, too. Probably get snapped up pretty fast.

Rollbar is a safety issue in DD situations. Bucket seats and then harness bar.

yeah, problem with rollbar is that during DD , you don't have a helmet so your head could hit the bar and it become a safety hasard. I still did but the tequipment bar in my car, a pain to do but with time it is doable by a single person. Phil.

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Many (if not all) organizations won't allow you to run harnesses unless the seats have cut-outs / pass throughs. You will also need an anti-sub strap, which sport seats won't have. Basically, sport seats with harnesses probably won't work. That is unless you run the new Porsche folding track sport seats. If you really need access to the back seats for some reason, the easiest altertative is running a harness bar. You will lose a few windshields doing a roll bar swap after fefore/every event. Not the perfect solution, but it is workable. If you don't really need the back seats, I would recommend a roll bar, it's safer on the track. -td

Thanks all. My problem is the tension between a) putting a high value on safety (thus, I'd prefer a roll bar); and b) I need use of the rear seats for my daughter (so a roll bar is not workable off track). Hauling my daughter in the back seat can't be compromised, so I'll have to work around this constraint for now. Whatever I do, it will have to be a compromise. I was hoping DAS's bolt in roll bar could be easily put in/taken out since it is in two pieces. I'll have to investigate this further. The tequipment bar for sale is a great price, but it definitely would be a pain to put in and take out regularly. I'd loose a bunch of windshields as himself notes. If the DAS bar won't work, then a harness bar looks like the best compromise (or the angelwings). As avader906 recommends, better seats should probably be my first step. Recaro Speeds fold forward and also have slots for five point harnesses (not cheap though).

I know decisions decisions.....like I said I have the Brey Krause bar. I also have the hard back seats. I pull the passenger side seat out when not at a DE. My wife will not sit in the hard back seat....thats another thread all together. So with the stock seat back in I can get to the back. The harness bar is 3 components. 1) The part that bolts to the rear shock towers 2) The upright struts that bolt in using the same points as the rear seat belt and 3) The middle part that connects to the upright and the piece that is connected to the shock tower. The middle part can easily be removed for using the rear seats. This would give you clear access for your girl. When I have a DE I spend a couple hours changing the seat and putting the harness back together and go. I hope I confused you more.

OT - love the new avatar Pete!

Rollbars are completely legal in DD situations. They are situated far enough back, that if you have a seat belt on, your head will not contact the bar in any way. Not wearing a seatbelt....well that's your own fault. Seat reclined super far back while driving....again, your own fault. RollCAGES on the other hand are illegal in street applications as your head can easily contact a bar in an accident. If you need the rear seat, you aren't going to be able to go rollbar. Pulling and installing a rollbar every event will lose it's luster very quickly, and you won't find any 2 piece bar that you can leave a portion of the section in.

One simple reason why you should NOT think about putting the bar in and out: the thread for the roll bar bolts (same as seat belt thread) are really reallllyy weak and you would destroy them in no time. They are made out of butter, it is ridiculous, just unscrewing my original bolt by hand some thread came out with it. Forget about the idea of roll bar in and out. not doable.

From personal experience, I would expect that you would not swap the harness bar in and out. It's a PITA to do, even with a harness bar. And himself is absolutely correct that you can't use harnesses at most events unless the seat has been specifically made for use with harnesses. Yeah, there are some four-point harnesses that are legal, but I'd stay away from them. If you're going to continue to use the back seat AND drive on the track with the same car, you're stuck with just using a CGlock in the car. Take the advice that I didn't: Buy a dedicated track car, trailer, and tow vehicle. You will end up there sooner or later.

Thanks everyone for the helpful advice. Guess I'll just go angelwings/cg lock for now and maybe sport seats later, foregoing the harness until I have a track dedicated car. No doubt, mglobe, this is where I'm headed. However, unless one of you is a good loan officer, this won't happen anytime soon.

I have a daily driver and use a Brey Krause harness bar. Works for me. If I flipped the car over on the roof as a daily driver....I would have done something VERY VERY WRONG....just my opinion.