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THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHHas IMS solutions ever failed
Reported or suspected cause
isssue
Reported cause
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Leading evidence: 'isssue' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'isssue' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check sump' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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The only issue is the only shops that send these back are those who are Certified Installers, because it's part of their Code Of Conduct and the registration process.
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The IMS Solution is the most tolerant of all technologies out there in regard to debris filled environments.
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Better remember this member in case he comes back a few months from now and says his engine blew up even after he installed the "Solution".
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
Has any engine failed due to IMS after being fitted with an IMS solutions from LN engineering
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We also have the VINs that failed a pre- qual, where the customer demanded them to be retrofitted anyway (non Certified Installers did these) and I have another list of those that were repaired after a bearing failed, but the engine was not pulled apart and properly cleaned.
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The only issue is the only shops that send these back are those who are Certified Installers, because it's part of their Code Of Conduct and the registration process.
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In the last week I've learned there's lots of varying opinions and lots of varying anecdotal evidence centered around the IMS in these engines.
Can anyone give me an answer to this question. Has any engine failed due to IMS after being fitted with an IMS solutions from LN engineering
Thanks!
^^ id like to know this answer also. After buying my first 996 and all this reading of IMS failures, it appears that there varying opinions and experiences regarding the failures IN GENERAL. Then, there is the varying opinions and experiences after an IMS upgrade/retrofit.
For now, I will continue to enjoy my C4 until I see impending signs of IMS/RMS failure, then you will see threads from myself lol.
First I will respond with typical 996 forum responses - search is you friend and OMG not another IMS thread, maybe we should talk about oil
Second you have to clarify IMS solutions
The IMS solution - AFAIK - 0 failures - new product with limited installers
The retrofits - which there are several types - double, single, and single to double - yes, there have been failures - but they are rare
Now this is where the discussion always gets nasty, why, how, and who's fault?
The discussion usually follows that it was a bad engine to begin with or a bad install, not the bearings fault. Then the discussion goes to well, the numbers of installs are small compared to number of M96 engines built and it took years for the initial failures to show up. You then add a splash of double is better. Which leads back to doubles don't usually fail. Someone then chimes in about the class action law suit.
Finally we end up with no real answer.
But the general feeling is the retrofits - any of them - are better than stock - with no real proof
There's only one product named "The IMS Solution".
There has never been an IMS Solution failure experienced, or reported. I know, I invented it, and I'd be the first person to hear it.
There's probably a reason you haven't had too many responses on THIS Subject, but IF you didn't get but ONE, Jake is the one you'd want!
He IS the Man to talk to! jmo! GL!
I do not have ims solution in my car yet but I have experinced dealing with Jake first hand on ims guardian. I bought the guardian a couple years ago but just got around to install it recently. My kit was the early batch of production and definitely out of warranty when I installed it in my car. I had oil leak from the mcd sensor and emailed Jake about it. He sent me a new one. The new sensor leaked again and helped me to troubleshoot the root cause of the leak. It turned out to be isssue with my oil pan. It's not the guardian mcd fault but he still helped me. We resolved the issue.
With that experience, I definitely would buy flat 6 product and service again. I believe Jake has done thorough research and testing on ims solution. Even if it ever fail, I believe that he will stand behind it and help you as long as the product is installed properly.
Great, if you've invented it, how many IMS solutions have you sold to be installed by independent mechanics (not counting your shop), plus total installed including your shop.
When were the first ones installed, so I'd know how long it's been out there.
Do you have personal knowledge of cars that has over 50k miles with the IMS solutions installed
Thanks
Pm sent
That is good to know....but I don't know how jake is connected to LN engineering, but a quick google search reveals LN engineering doesn't necessarily stand behind their product. There's anecdotal evidence where a guy installed LN engineering IMS retrofit by an authorized mechanic and the IMS failed after 6k miles. LN engineering was willing to pay for their parts but not the cost of engine repair.....which by the way is understandable.....but what I'm saying is, what ever is done or not done...so, no replacement to replacement with any of the myriad options we have, at the end, if the motor blows no one is going to bail you out.
Again, it really doesn't matter.....I am thoroughly convinced it's just mass paranoia, but now that my filter had may be five magnetic shavings, I'm trying to come up with a solution that makes sense for me. No option is bullet proof. I would never ever think of changing it as a precaution though.
I'm only talking about IMS solutions, which now I understand is invented by Jake. 0 failure is great, but it depends how long it's been out there......by the way, reading through your responses, I think I have the same view of IMS as you do.
Thanks!
Let's light the torches and run this one down! There is a engineering problem with a small probability of failure, however everyone begins to question and demand answers. The Internet spreads rumor, gossip and hysteria develops faster than the speed of light these days. Lost days and nights of worry.... A solution is independently developed in hopes everyone will breathe a sigh of relief, implement and move on.
Nope. Now we want to know the facts and figures on the solution. What if there is a problem with the solution? OMG Get it now? Problem...solution...is there a problem with the solution...need proof....more solution...more is there a problem with the solution.....ad infinitum
Here is an absolute truth - your car/engine will end up in a junkyard someday and no one will give a damn! Stop fretting over this and either get rid of the car or go for a drive! Happy Weekend everybody!
Lol....I understand your frustration being immersed in this craziness....hey! But there's nothing wrong with asking questions....I really didn't find the answer to the one question I've asked initially. Which will give me a clearer picture on what I need to do next....whether I don't replace anything or replace everything, at the end I'll be very happy with the vehicle.....I'm currently gathering data to act, and once acted upon, it'll absolutely be out of my mind.
With the five odd metallic specs found in my filter even my mechanic thinks my stock IMS probably is still fine, but he strongly recommends replacing it for the small chance it could be...
Have a nice day!
The IMS Solution is not a new product. It's been in the open market for 3 years now, and in world wide circulation for that period of time.
I originally invented this product for my line of engines, exclusively. This is where it first debuted and has been in service.
Here at our facility we have installed over 200 units in retrofit applications and an equal amount have gone into our engine builds. This product took over a decade to invent, develop and patent.
I am not sure if total units sold through LN, because I have nothing to do with sales.
LN does stand behind their product, if the installer completes the process as directed. My position with LN is their developer and not thing more. I assisted with the founding of the company, was their first customer and have remained their largest customer. Over 15 years we've done a lot together.
I drove my car from Las Vegas to Los Angeles again on Friday and I will drive back to Vegas again tonight. Every time I open the door I see the FLAT SIX sticker with some serial numbers etc Jakes shop affixed to the door jamb after they replaced the IMSB. I like that little sticker, in my mind it makes me think that the car is even better than when it was new.
Which is worse...your wife cheating on you...you cheating on your wife and getting caught...or IMS failure? If you are worried about your IMS, you're one up on the other two guys because over 90% of the stock ones are still on the road and doing fine...and if you're still worried, Jake can help you.
If you're one of the other two guys...well you are in real trouble.
I'm NOT sure on this, but it seems like someone on here has said that IF you haven't had it happen within 60k miles then it's LESS likely to happen After that! Is this True or Not? Thanks!
No not yet, it was in the shop. They are getting to it this Monday, and I need to decide which way to go Monday. It could be single or double rows, they won't know until they get in there.
If it's a manual just replace it with the clutch. Not that it would go out, but it's pretty low hanging fruit to take care of, easy to do with a clutch, and there are many kits on the market that should work just fine.
Or, a person could just as easily take the bearing out, inspect it, and put it back in if good with a few hundred dollar kit.
They removed the old IMSB, Apparently everything looks fine with it. No play in the movement and no discernible roughness. A couple of speck of metallic glitter which could indicate early signs of failure. For $926 plus tax more, decided to go with IMS "solutions".
My clutch was a goner, less than 6mm in thickness
Jake it's the same shop I've pm'd you earlier.
http://p3autokrafte.com/
These are the credentials of the mechanics
http://p3autokrafte.com/about/
I know they are not certified by LN engineering, however I am comfortable going with them, given their credentials.
Good, if they were Certified and did this work with a bearing that was shedding material, I would have pulled that Certification by close of business today!
Are you saying they installed the IMS Solution for $926+tax more than merely putting the old IMSB back in? Or $926+tax more than an LN ceramic bearing retrofit?
This is why engines that are to be retrofitted MUST be pre- qualified. If they fail pre- qualification, the issue must be addressed before moving forward.
The reputation of the product I have over a decade of my life invested in lies in the hands of every installer in the world who does this job. If a failure ever occurs, its only a "failed part" that we are expected to stand behind, no matter if the engine passed or failed a pre qualification.
Here's a directive about IMS Retrofits where bearings are already failing
http://imsretrofit.com/bearing-already-failing/
You MUST understand that the smaller particles are what matter more than the larger ones in this situation!!!!! Smaller pieces become suspended in the oil and delivered to the wear components within the engine, and the IMS Bearing. Bigger pieces of debris settle to the bottom of the sump here they are collected and they seldom go anywhere.
I need to get the VIN of this vehicle to be placed on the "blacklist". Please message it to me.
I was wondering the same. Why would you spend all this money on Jakes IMS Solution without having the engine qualified? Especially if its shedding metal? Sorry for the dumb question, just wondering.
Sheesh, again?
Here's the deal: If you have a 996 and are worried about IMS making the engine go kablooey, get the IMS solution. Drive happy, be happy, sleep well thereafter.
And we are back full circle.
If you replace a perfect bearing in a perfect engine, did you just waste your money because it would have never failed anyway?
You missed a big point. If the job isn't done to an engine that has a "perfect bearing" the return on retrofit investment will be compromised.
The only IMS Bearings we will retrofit are those that are "perfect".
The failing bearing doesn't just take out the new bearing, it also chews all the rest of the internals up as they are fed with oil laden with contaminants.
Those who think their OEM oil filter will save them, are absolutely wrong, too.
I smell BS here.... Why would you sell the "solutions" in the open market then? You said you don't even know how many " solutions" been sold by LM engineering. So, if you don't even know that, then how do you know who bought it and who installed it? If you are genuine with what you are claiming here, wouldn't you track every "solutions" sold?
I smell an engine here that would have failed a ore qualification if a Certified Installer was doing the retrofit.
Each and every IMS Solution comes with the paperwork that we designed for tracking purposes. This registration form is to be sent in with a series of photos and the old IMS Bearing, where it will join a data base.
The only issue is the only shops that send these back are those who are Certified Installers, because it's part of their Code Of Conduct and the registration process.
We have no control over what other shops do, but I will state that hardly any bearings are returned from non- certified installers.
This is just something I've been wondering about...
I understand the absolute need to prequalify an engine for retrofit with an open bearing because it depends on splash/immersion lubrication, and tiny particles of debris will get in and chew it up.
But The Solution gets its lubrication off of your spin-on filter adapter which never allows any oil to bypass filtration, so why is prequalification so urgent?
I really, really should stay out of this. But...
First - reason for prequalification - if there is any metal in the engine, it can get trapped there and stay there for a long period of time. You can trust me on this. Even after several oil changes. So if it is not all out, it can get to all parts of the engine before getting back to the filter and this can wear out all the bearings and cause a multitude of other problems and damage in the engine. But not always.
Second - never mind
I think the point is even if no debris touches the Solution, it can affect other components which can eventually cause the engine to fail and for the Solution to be blamed and dinged for others mistakes. I'm sure Jake will chime in but I can see that kind of scenario happening.
Absolutely. I have a list with at least 50 entries on it where bearings were returned after a retrofit and found to be failing. We also have the VINs that failed a pre- qual, where the customer demanded them to be retrofitted anyway (non Certified Installers did these) and I have another list of those that were repaired after a bearing failed, but the engine was not pulled apart and properly cleaned.
These are the cars that have the outer IMSB races cut out with a Dremel and the bearing replaced.
Our Certified Installers will, from time to time catch an engine in the middle of a failure by only doing 1/3 of the pre- qualification process. They turn those VINs into us as well, along with photo documentation of the issues.
We can't protect ourselves and the reputation of the product enough. I am waiting for someone to have a failure post retrofit and say "I replaced a perfect bearing and it failed". Thats when I'll put the "ace" out of my sleeve and the fun will begin. It will happen. I called it.
You are thinking small picture here. Remember, material laden oil will take out the rest of the engine too, not just the IMS Bearing. We are seeing cylinders fail as a result of foreign debris routinely now, as an example.
The IMS Solution is the most tolerant of all technologies out there in regard to debris filled environments. That doesn't mean that it should be applied if there's a debris filled environment.
If an engine is retrofitted with anything, and then features a failure, guess what gets the blame? The most expensive component that was applied.
All of those reasons are why you'll never see me sell anyone, or any shop a component of any sort. I think it, develop it, and then I am smart enough to let go of it.
Wow has this thread gone in a few different directions.
I assume I'm on the list so don't worry Sanjeevan, if you make it to the list you will be in good company.
im not worried, but thanks!..... I'm sure in five years when I come back to the forum guys will be installing the IMSB in zero gravity facilities lined with gold, nothing else will suffice
I only posted my decision and pictures to inform the forum, I've made my decision after researching the issue and I am not seeking validity
I hope some of you haters now understand why I wrote what I did about buying another 996. Its great when JR validates what I say while I get nothing but grief from the less informed members.
Thanks Jake, makes sense to me, in fact it's kind of what I figured.
The funny thing is, when I had mine done back in '11, I demanded that the shop do those pre-qualification procedures just going on intuition that an open bearing would be susceptible to debris. Aside from checking the filter reservoir and the oil pan, we pulled the seals off the old bearing and found it still mostly packed with grease (at 31-32K miles, very surprsingly), and there was no oil to speak of in the IMS tube. My extended warranty requires 6mo/5000mi oil service, and as I only drive 6000mi/year, I've changed oil/filter every 3000miles since the retrofit. Maybe that's why my single-row LN bearing hasn't failed (going on 30K miles). When the warranty expires at 75K (42-43K on the LN) I'll probably get the Pro, as it would take me another dozen years to put another 75K on it, and doubtful I'll keep it that long.
There are certified installers near enough to most owners that if a decision is made to install the "solution" or even the ceramic bearings why not use them. Do they cost more? If so how much more? To be certified the shop owner or mechanic had to attend one of Jakes classes, that alone is evidence that the shop was serious and wanted to do the best job they could, why not take advantage of that?
What does the certification do for anyone?
I didn't check with your website, just word of mouth as to who was the best shop around here. I'm not even sure they did an inspection or not to be honest, don't care, they took care of it, I'm happy, and it's their reputation anyway not yours.
Don't know if it was an IMS failure yet. Had the indy dealer where I bought my 2002 996 install an L&N IMS replacement bearing as part of the purchase price. Engine grenaded 2 years later (Feb) with 20,000 miles since upgrade. Sold car as a roller, the buyer is in the process of a teardown and will let me know if it was the IMS or something else. Will post details when I find out.
Incorrect. If a component fails the buck gets passed to me, no matter the reason. The shop is just buying a part and installing it, if that fails, then, they just say its not their fault.
Certified Installers follow a strict set of guidelines and they quickly lose their certification if they make a bad judgment call, whether if it leads to failure, or not.
Everything is my fault. Of the handful of bearing failures that we've seen (none of the IMS Solution!) the shop has never admitted to any mistakes or bad judgment calls being made. That includes the shop that had a technician tightening the center studs with an impact wrench, leading to both the bearings he retrofitted(Classic Single Row) failing within 300 miles of install.
The Certiified Installer has a lot to lose, so they take each installation seriously.
Legally its not my concern... But to gain leverage people will go to the guy with the best reputation and make their threats, and raise hell. I work with machines very well, people, not so much.
For most of my work I was simply paid by LN to be a developer, other projects started out as mine, and then were sold, so different technologies have different circumstances.
The system has been set up to promote these retrofits being done properly, and if every shop had to conform to the protocol that Certified Installers did, no failures of any technology would occur. There's never been a post- process failure that was carried out by a Certified Installer.
Hello? Tap.Tap.Tap (picture tapping on a microphone), is this thing on?
If there are no failures in certified engines with good bearings and no evidence of failure, is replacing the bearing a waste of money?
What I would like to see in a perfect world is peace in the Middle East and the elimination of poverty, but if I can't have that, a real study comparing engines that passed a certification but continue with the stock bearing against engines with a retrofit and see if the failure rate would be different.
And "I know there would be more in the first group" is not an answer. No real reply is necessary. Just wondering.
Whats a waste of money, depends on who you ask. If you ask a group of people who have experienced failure, Vs a group that have good service from an OEM bearing, you will get much different responses.
The thread has veered way off course. The original poster asked if an IMS Solution units have failed. The answer to that is NONE.
So you added a little egocentric stroke for yourself in a thread that has nothing to do with your nonsensical recent post about buying another 996, which was actually just (yet another) vehicle for you to enumerate the many flaws of a car you no longer own.
For reference, some of us haters are adequately informed. My hate for your posts is driven solely by your incessant, childlike need to enumerate your biases against the 996 / M96.
You also seem to operate under the delusion that repeatedly sucking up to Jake somehow lends you credibility. I missed the thread containing Jake's reply to you, but it must have read something like, "Dang, KrazyK, you are RIGHT ON THE MONEY with your assertions and interpretations of what I've written. I am struck dumb with awe!" If you could link to that thread, I'd appreciate it.
You sold your 996. Move on. This forum is intended for owners and/or enthusiasts, and you're neither.
" That includes the shop that had a technician tightening the center studs with an impact wrench, leading to both the bearings he retrofitted(Classic Single Row) failing within 300 miles of install."
This is just classic! I think the use of the title "technician" in this case is a little loose... I think "Monkey" would be more fitting...(though maybe a little unfair to monkeys...)
What I find amusing in an ironic sort of way is people are joyous over spending thousands to pimp out their car with cosmetic accessories, yet agonize endlessly over a $600 part to hedge against an 8% chance of catastrophic engine failure.
That "monkey" was a Porsche Gold Level Master Technician! Doesn't mean a damn thing to me, and never has.
Absolutely. It amazes me the amount of cars we see with failures that were preventable, that come in with 5-7K worth of bolt on junk all over them.
If it makes the car look or sound a certain way, people will buy it. If it keeps the heart of the vehicle from failing, rendering all the other junk useless, people are reserved about it. I hate bling, and things that are added for no practical benefit, thats why I founded a technology company, not a fashion company.
Exactly. Who's the real hater? The one that still takes care of their baby but may acknowledge some faults, or the one that abandons it without giving it any chances based on their own insecurities?
I hope you don't have any children.
I needed to tow mine two hours to the nearest certified installer, besides it was already in the shop. I don't see anything wrong with your argument though.
However, having seen what's involved I am more than comfortable my mechanic can easily do this job. There's absolutely no need to tow it to any facility.
It's not $600, even the parts costs a bit more but then there's the labor. I don't think anyone will do it for much cheaper than $2500 total (mine was more, I'm just guessing the minimum to be that much).
IMS discussion can indeed lead to all sorts of conclusions...it's unreal....I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and relax.
P.S: I know it's not directed at me, but Im just saying...but whatever...it's just a car.
Baby was in reference to a car but I had to throw in the last sentence for the additional jab that I'm used to giving KK all the time. After all I'd like to think I had a small part in him quitting these forums for awhile before rejoining.
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
