Lets talk Tiptronic

As I get used to my 06 997 S, I strongly prefer the mapping of the Tip in sport mode over normal mode. It takes it within inches of the PDK...not all the way but very very close. Other experiences or thoughts on this? What differences between the 996 and 997 versions of Tiptronic? Any reported issues with prolonged or permanent use of sport mode on the transmission?

Lets talk tiptronic?... :Lets not.

There's no way it's close to PDK, John. The PDK is a true double clutch system. I can understand being in sport mode presents a notable difference over the regular mode, but there's no way it comes close to PDK. I'm comparing to my old E46 M3 with SMG II which was impressive (though not as fun as the 6SP).

Yes, let's spend lots of time discussing the 997 tiptronic. In the 996 forum. Maybe you are wearing the wrong fashion for the tiptronic? Could be a watch interface malfunction. Perhaps you have your selfie stick stuck in the transmission?

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A $350.00 oil change will increase the performance of a tip to equal the PDK.

Sigh...

From 6SpeedOnline a while back comes an oversimplification I quite like: "Tip uses torque converter, PDK uses clutches. In simplest terms, tip gives you manual control over an automatic transmission, PDK gives you auto control over a manual transmission." Tip to PDK is not even an apples to apples comparison. Think more along the lines of...um...Commodore 64 to Cray XK7 "Titan." The Tip is no marvel of forward thinking-engineering, but it's a solid-performing state-of-the-art-circa-end-of-the-20th-century ZF gearbox... You can push the little shifty buttons on your automatic transmission until the cows come home - you're not going to wear out the torque converter.

My views on Tiptronic are pretty polarized from a small sample size experience. I owned a 2001 C4 Tip back in the early 2000's. I chose Tiptronic and 4wd for my wife. My wife loved that car, but I never really enjoyed driving it. It felt heavy and relatively slow (for a Porsche) and the automatic didn't seem even remotely sporting. We eventually replaced the 996 with a Maserati with Cambiocorsa (F1) transmission. The F1 was much better than Tiptronic, but she didn't really end up driving the Maserati all that much and kept talking about how much she loved the 996. Eventually I took the hint and ditched the Maserati for a another 996. I wasn't that excited about getting a 996 again because I didn't love driving our old 2001 C4 Tip, but this time I chose a 2000 996 with a 6-speed and 2wd and I honestly think it is one of the best cars I have ever driven. The difference between this car and the old C4 is huge -- not sure how much of the difference is from Tip to 6-speed, 4wd to 2wd, or just sample differences, but I love the "new" 996. It is the perfect blend of lightweight sports car with all the modern comforts. I think there will come a day when 996's are recognized for their unique attribute of being both modern and lighter in weight than the 2 models that preceded it and a LOT lighter than the 997.

This is "older" data for PDK vs Tip - circa 2009. Introduced nearly 20 years ago, Tiptronic was at best an electronically controlled transmission with a torque-converter. At worst, it was a slow-shifting slushbox vehemently shunned by enthusiasts. In a complete reversal of trend, Porsche expects enthusiasts to prefer PDK over a traditional 6-speed manual transmission. Shake your head in disbelief, and then read on... First, the lightning-fast shifts with PDK best even the quickest manual or Tiptronic gear change (e.g., a 6th to 2nd shift took 1.05 sec with Tiptronic S – PDK drops it to just .42 sec). Second, there is no tractive-force interruption with PDK (no measurable loss of power to the pavement). Third, overall acceleration is quicker with PDK (Carrera S Coupe launches 0-60 mph in 4.5 sec with a manual, just 4.1 sec with PDK). Finally, PDK is absolutely consistent lap after lap. Few drivers, if any, can match that. The most important point made in the preceding paragraph is this one: there is no tractive-force interruption with PDK (no measurable loss of power to the pavement)

John, it might be best for you to go and enjoy your 997 as the thing it is - a nice, quick car with a relatively good automatic transmission - instead of trying to will it into something it's not...

You know, I've never driven a TIP and didn't even consider one when I was looking for a 996, but I'd be interested to get opinions on them. The few cars I've driven with this functionality just sucked in my opinion. I found that I just left them in drive after playing with them a bit.

Tiptronic was great in my 2004 Cayenne S!

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+1!!

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These two descriptions nail it as far as I'm concerned. Nothing wrong with the Tip. It is one of the best of it's type of transmission. The PDK is a completely different thing and is definitely superior in both function and feel.

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Very good post. Nails it exactly. As much as I prefer manual transmissions, the new cars have so much power that humans as shifters become a huge bottleneck to performance. I think it's less about car manufacturers assuming buyers prefer automated manuals than it is about cars today needing them so they can deliver their full performance potential.

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The Tip in my 2013 P!g is probably the best slushbox I've driven, but it's no manual and no dual clutch. There is still a noticeable delay in it's shifting (in manual mode) and there are times where it just ignores your command. It's good and can be a lot of fun, but if the Tip is just not going to give you the best from the car.

I know what you mean. The Tiptronic in the Cayenne actually shifted faster in automatic mode than manual mode. The 8-speed in my Audi SQ5 is similar to the Tiptronic used in the newer Cayennes. I must say, it's fantastic. It shifts faster than the Macan that I drove in Germany with PDK, although not as fast as the 911 with PDK. In any case, I still prefer my 911s to be equipped with a manual transmission.

I'm not sure if my 2006 997 Tip is different than a 2003 996 Tip. It certainly is different from the 1995 993 Tip I drove and it is better than the 2001 Audi A4 Tip I once owned. The Sport mode seems to be similar to my 2007 VW Rabbit Tip but without the steering wheel option and with obviously much lower horse power in the Rabbit. I never said that Tip was better than PDK. I did say that in my opinion in certain functions it feels fairly close to the PDK/DSG in my 2011 GTI. And obviously the 911 has more power than the GTI. As long as you are not flat bedding your way to the dealer because of erroneous warning lights, or having the entire transmission sent back to Germany because dealers are given limited repair options, PDK seems like the right technology for the car. However complexity always flirts with fragility. I found my DSG/PDK VW/Porsche/Audi developed transmissoin great at first and then the charm waned. I jumped to a 996 manual...and then the charm waned. I jumped to the Tip in my 997 and time will tell if I grow complacent with this as well. But my initial response is that I am quite pleased with this generation of Tip when combined with this car. The mapping of throttle and transmission in Sports mode is very similar to what I experienced in DSG and what I read in peoples comments on PDK. And I enjoy not thinking about false alarms in the sensors. I remember reading about Fangio finishing second in the 1952 Mille Miglia...driving an Alfa Romeo Disco Volante. The feat was remarkable because for over half the race he only had steering to one of his front wheels. I also remember Jim Hall using a Chevy Powerglide slush box transmission on his V8 Chaparral race cars...often trouncing the best European machines. And the history of beefed up GM Hydarmatic transmissions in drag racing is also well documented. All this as a way of saying that drivers can compensate for various mechanical shortcomings (except for completely breaking down), that old designs can still offer advantages to new designs, and that pissing on the Tip just because someone dares to compare it to Jesus and the PDK seems well...par for the RL course.

Do tell us more about a 997 here in the 996 forum. Is it the new 993? Breathlessly awaiting your ignoring this post. While I am here, I gotta say, the transmission coupled with the Ford V10 in the motorhome is just the bees knees. It shifts when it needs to and doesn't when it doesn't. Other than the obvious indication that it has shifted you can hardly tell it has shifted.

John, I think it would be fun to get you drunk and unleash you on some hapless employee at a watch shop.

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No you didn't, here is what you did say: "As I get used to my 06 997 S, I strongly prefer the mapping of the Tip in sport mode over normal mode. It takes it within inches of the PDK...not all the way but very very close." I'm pretty sure nobody made the leap that you were comparing it to a VW GTI. Being a Porsche forum, I'm fairly certain everyone figured you are trying to compare a tiptronic 996 or 997 to a Porsche 99x with PDK. It's no wonder people are jumping all over you. You've got to complete the sentences the first time around, it helps. It's like this: "As I get used to my Timex Indiglo, I strongly prefer the way it glows when I push the little button to the way it looks in the daytime. It takes it close to my Rolex in perceived quality, not all the way but very very close." except that you were really talking about comparing it to the Faux-lex that you bought from the guy at the curb at Burbank Airport last week.

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John, I don't see too many people "pissing" on the Tip in this thread nor your 997 forum thread. Any that did are in the minority. And several posts agreed with your assertion that the Tip is a good, reliable transmission. I've had one too and I know what they are about, and the Tip in your 997 is even superior to the earlier models. I get that. But what I did see is you seeming to (almost) equate the Tip to the PDK. Again, they are apples and oranges. Not the same. What's the purpose in trying to equate them? I also now see you trying to bash the PDK with references to electronic problems, as if that were a common thing... Seems like you're trying too hard here to make something it is not.

The 997 is the new 993, and the PDK is the new Tip, and the mock crab meat you buy at Whole Foods is mere inches from Maine lobster. 70 is the new 35, Brooks Bros. is the new Armani, and Rachel Dolenzal is the new Iggy Azalea. Bruce Jenner is the new Cher, and Cher is the new...um...the new...well, there's NOTHING new about Cher.

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Bwhhahahahha dude you have to tell us what you do for a living - based upon your writing I was going to guess head writer for Conan or john Stewart

Btw Jon you weren't that far off Autobild in Germany tested various cars including The 997 tt with both tip and pdk: R8 vs SLS vs 997TT PDK vs 997TT Tiptronic Beschleunigung 0–50 km/h 1,5 s 1,9 s 1,5 s 1,3 s 0–100 km/h 3,9 s 3,9 s 3,3 s 3,5 s 0–200 km/h 12,0 s 11,1 s 11,1 s 12,0 s Zwischenspurt 60–100 km/h 2,0 s 1,7 s 2,0 s 2,0 s 80–120 km/h 1,9 s 1,8 s 2,3 s 2,2 s

And one more thing In the 996 two versions of the tip were offered. 996.1 used an older ZF built auto box 996.2 all the way to 997.1 used a Mercedes AMG built box various features such as torque converter lockup in all forward gears (which eliminates the powerloss typically asociated with slush boxes), increased shift speeds (35% faster than the standard box), and automatic holding of a gear or even downshifting when braking/cornering.

I thought u said good-by...for like 5 or 6 pages....

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This explains a lot. Our 996.1 Tip was not rewarding to drive -- probably the later ones are much better. As much as I prefer the driving feel of automated manual over automatic, if they were remotely close in performance and feel, I would choose the automatic on a daily driver for simplicity's sake.

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Funny you mention a Ford transmission; Ive been contemplating installing the Ford-O-Matic 3 speed out of our '56 Sunliner into the Porsche. Of course Id need an a-dapt-a-kit, but Im pretty sure it will be pretty close to a PDK. Plus, it automatically starts off in 2nd gear unless you floor it to pick up fuel mileage....so I'd have that going for me, which is nice... The big question I have though is that since that trans is air cooled, will that make me more or less popular with the 993 crowd?