Quality argument

At a memorial last night a guy that had bore scoring (997)was going on and on about how crappy the 996/997�s were made. Volkswagen with a Porsche badge yada yada yada. He�s an aircooled SC guy and didn�t realize I had a 996. I just said I�ve owned two and they have both been fine cars. Is there an argument for the quality of the 996/997 or do I throw up the white flag? Now, please don�t think I�m upset, I just love a good argument. I do think the silver paint and plastic Porsche used in that era was a bad choice but what about the rest of the car?

Ask your friend if his car leaks or leaked in the past because all air cool 911 do some have never been able to be cured also ask him why the 996 is such a better performance/value car that’s safer more economical and usable compared to his overheating machine

I think from a pure build quality standpoint, he may have a point, but from a driving dynamics perspective a 996 c2 Coupe 6-speed will absolutely crush an 911 SC. I don�t miss my 3.2 Carrera, or even my 1974 911s, at all - the 996 feels lighter and more nimble than those early cars, and will obliterate them in performance and comfort. Was the 3.2 better built? Yes. Does that matter to me when the 996 is infinitely better to drive? No, not even a little bit. I do miss my 1969 912 because it felt like a lightweight sports car you could toss around. The 996 has those exact same �lightweight sports car� characteristics, but a gazillion times the performance and comfort. Build quality was better on the earlier cars in my opinion, but you don�t drive build quality.

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I also miss my 912 but it's a sentimentality thing. The right car for that time of my life. It was what I could afford at the time. I think with me is I remember clearly things going on in my life then, and the 912 (green) is central in the memories. I do wish I still owned it. Would make a great restoration project.

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The only quality issue the 997 and 996 has is the knuckleheaded owner who fails to change the oil.

I had.77� 930 and while it�s was dripping with craftsmanship and small build type touches It was not quality like a late 80s Benz. The clutch and brakes were on par with a truck and his forbid you park it in the sun because it�s starting till it cooled off, the AC was rebuilt and blew Luke warm air like a someone burped in a fan. The sunroof sounded like a small motor blender and the shifter throw was akin to Vw bug�..damn I miss that car 🤣. Being said my wife who was young when I had the 930 said this car was much easier to live with. Compliant ride and enough creature comforts to go far. Also every person I talked to about leaks in the 911s �they all do that� was infuriating. I couldn�t accept that was norm and was not across the board. It just a pension to seal up engine so it wouldn�t and usually ended fixing three things then the next weak point would spring open. I do remember the 930 took an absolutely amazing amount oil to fill it. Seeing traffic while traffic that car was slow torture, take the exit and find a shady tree and admire the lines and conversations from people who always ask �is that a Ferrari?� The slant nose wide body flared rocker and table for a wing were so over the top in 1999. Being said some materials in the 996 aren�t high end but the build quality seems good. Gaps, fit finish, lack of squeaks and rattles these are quality points to me and the car seems to have them. Granted mine has 30k but everything I�ve read they hold that sentiment well into 130k if maintained and driving it isn�t an after thought. move loved a lot a card but this one is a keeper�.unless I find a 03 targa and someone wants to trade !! Happy Monday!!

Every model has its issues. Not every 996 and 997 has had engine failure, but it doesn't take too many catastrophic fails to make a black stain. It's worse when it becomes personal.

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IMHO the 997 guy was just pissed because he just got bitten by the scoring bug. If not he probably would have been singing a different song. If he doesn't love the 997 he should sell it and move up or down as he prefers. To each their own. Don't know anything about air cooled Porsches. I'm sure they had their strong points and weak ones as well. I wouldn't argue with him. I would just politely listen and understand where his real anger was coming from.

I bought an '04 996 six weeks ago as a companion to our 981 Boxster S. As an 18 year old car wit 67k, it shows no paint or interior wear. Driving experience is what I hoped... lighter feeling than the 981, smaller footprint.. I have a full maintenance history and it shows routine maint, plus a water pump and an alternator. I'm having clutch replaced today due to a noisy release bearing. So I would say it's pretty good for a performance car. Air cooled cars are great and reflect our history, but it's equivalent to enjoying a ride in a nice MGB, a really good experience. No offense intended to air cooled owners... I still want one.

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Doing the IMSB as well? On the MGB comparison, it rely depends on the year. My 993 is a modern, comfortable car. Nothing at all like the MGB and MGB GT I used to own.

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Quality is a standard that something is built to. Most (many?) would argue that the standard of quality was higher in the older cars, and was lowed in the 996. But driving experience and enjoyment are completely different. Ask him how his AC is working. Or even his heat.

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Wasn't doing an apples to oranges comparison. But overall, we do understand the strengths and weaknesses of various cars and accept them for the enjoyment they bring.

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Got it. And agree. The MG comment reminds me how some cars just seem to "fit" I loved my MGB GT, but just couldn't manage to feel the same way toward the MGB roadster.

The romantic idea of something being �higher quality� because it�s handmade is somewhat ludicrous. Yes, personal attention to details can be and often is a good thing, but it also leaves plenty of room for error. God forbid the assembler had a bad day� When certain processes are handled by machines tolerances are tighter and more repeatable which leads to a higher quality end product. For the 996 in particular there was still quite a bit of human/hand assembly of said parts, so I think 996 era cars had a good balance between man and machine. I don�t think there�s any reality based argument against the build quality of the 996. Let�s face it - people say stupid s*hit for all kinds of reasons�

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ive heard many issues wt earlier Aston martins and they were hand built if not correct. Like you said, hand built is great if guy doing is dialed and cares like say a Ferrari mechanic who�s culture and family have been doing for generations but a Friday before a long weekend, or Monday back from vacation, argument wt boss, ticket on way to work..all things lend to human mind being complacent and mistakes get made and errors happen. I thought 996 engines were mostly hand assembled wt hydronic tools of some such?

Also ask him how he likes his plywood floorboards, or his wavy warped door cards that my granddaughter could build in a barn.. 911sc plywood floorboard

I'd say they're right. From an interior quality standpoint yes the 996/997 is way behind the aircooled stuff. Mezger engines are definitely more robust. Yes they experience leaks but they're all 30-40 years old at this point so no surprise there. Gearbox is a toss up. 915 isn't any better than the G96. If anything I'd say it's worse. SC isn't so clear cut on quality difference imo. However a G50 carrera, 964, 993.... there isn't even a discussion.

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The 912 was more than sentimental to me. I drove a huge number of early (60�s and 70�s) 911�s and a few 912�s and there was just a demarcation in driving feel in the �72 and earlier cars from the �74 and later cars. I really loved the lightweight sports car feel of the �72 and earlier. I really wanted a 911e (the best model by far in my experience), but finding one without rust in humid Florida was difficult when the cars were 10 or 15 years old, so when the rust-free �69 912 came along, I grabbed it. Even though the power was extremely modest, it had that lightweight feel of all of the early cars and I really enjoyed that. The only post-1974 911 to replicate that early light sports car feel is the 996. Not as light in weight as the �72 and earlier cars, but 300hp plus power steering makes the additional weight disappear. The build quality was there in the early cars, but prior to 1977, when Porsche finally started zinc coating the bodies, rust was a major issue in any kind of humid environment.

A couple of positive things for the SC models was that they were the first to have fully galvanized bodies and the 3.0 engines were probably the most robust of any 911 ever made � it wasn�t uncommon for them to go 250k or more miles without needing a rebuild. The SC was probably the peek in reliability across all 911 models, so he has a point from that perspective.

I have a Rolex that was passed down to me from a close friend. It's a beautiful watch. Supposedly hand made with an impeccable attention to detail. And, all the metals mined by Rolex they say, yadda yadda yadda. The thing stopped working and it cost me over a $1000 for the repair. Whooosh. That's enough money to supply my whole family with Timex watches. hahaha I've owned Timex and Casio cheap watches that cost only $30 and lasted years without one ounce of trouble. Simple mass produced quartz watches. The Rolex on the other hand is a solid watch, but the automatic mechanism has to be serviced and repaired to keep it in top shape. However, people have offered me more than the original price and when I took it to Rolex in Atlanta, they told me the current retail on it has double since mine was purchased. Is it a great watch? Heck yea! But is it as well-built as a modern Casio G-shock... (((coughs))) I won't answer that. hahaha Point is, old aircooled Porsches will always be special because, like a Rolex, people will spend more on something that is limited, exclusive, and hand-built (for the most part). Just my thoughts.

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I went through a metal detector wt my Rolex. Not a good idea lol. Threw off magnets that power it. That was cheap lesson 🤣

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If you can't see or feel the quality difference between a Rolex and casio I think you're missing the point. That's akin to saying well a camry is a better car than a 911 because it requires less servicing. That might be true but that's not really the point now is it?

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"Quality" is relative. p.s. not gonna let you "wind me up". No pun intended.

The short version of the Rolex discussion is: �Quality does not always mean a better subjective ownership experience�. That may be the short version of the 996 discussion also . EDITED to change �performance� to �subjective ownership experience�

In reality, there is a question to be asked first which is: "What about the 996/997 do you think is lower quality and why?"

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The inverse is also true� In the case of Porsche, I think it�s fair to say that each subsequent generation of 911 displays improved performance to its predecessor (this is quantifiable). Quality of individual components and materials however, is/can be questionable�

Yep. It's all subjective. Kinda like if you prefer blondes, brunettes or red heads. Some see the beauty in all.

A picture is worth a thousand words.

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Weird, I don't see a 996 in this image, but understand the sentiment.

All of this begs the obvious question: How much would the perceived quality of the 996 improve if Porsche simply used a better quality blinker stalk arm?

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Isn't the point of a Rolex is to own and be seen with a Rolex...? To me they are too big/heavy/clunky. Besides who really wears/needs a watch today?...and I'm an old guy who grew up wearing a watch!

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Yes...exactly!

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Agree, �performance� was the wrong word. I edited my post to amend.

Performance is a scaled perception the better the driver the faster they can go the faster the car doesn’t make you a faster driver probably the opposite end in a wall the interior on my early build 99 is very robust and still looking good after 23 years and most of its life in the heat and sun of the south and my draped leather seats are luxurious and made by Connelly

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It's essentially the owners of those cars depicted above are usually the ones that talk to the most about the 996 having a crap interior... their interiors weren't great by any stretch either.

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Is quality really relative? I don't think it is. Quality doesn't necessarily equate to a price point. It refers to an attention to detail, craftsmanship, materials used, design, execution of intended function. There are Seikos that are incredible and offer a high level of quality at a relatively low price point. By contrast there are Hublots that cost 10s of thousands and are pretty janky. yuk yuk yuk Not pictures 996 flaking center consoles, scratched up door handles, frunk release latches, broken throttle hinges, broken center console lid hinges, squeaks rattles.... HA! I will say all 911s have a sucky turn signal stalk Is the point of owning a Porsche to be seen in a Porsche? Who really drives/needs a sports car today? The cayenne is too big/heavy/clunky so all Porsches must be... See where I'm going with this.. There's a reason for the crossover between car and watch guys. Same sort of reason one would be drawn to a sports car over a generic whatever mobile is the same reason someone would choose a high end watch over something else. Guys I get we all love the 996 but are we really going to turn a blind eye to the foibles the car has? A car can be flawed and still be loveable. It's OK.

I think the 996 was the start of options-itis at Porsche. The look, and more importantly feel, of the interior varies hugely with options. My first 2001 996, bought CPO with very low miles, did not have full leather, did not have 3-spoke, and was a sea of one color, mostly vinyl except for the seats. It held up well, but it did not look or feel like it belonged in an $80k car at all. I didn�t know any better about the full leather ,3-spoke,options etc, so my impression of the 996 interior was poor, for a full decade, even though it was an ergonomic improvement over the old interiors. When I got my 2000 with full leather, 3-spoke, contrasting carpet, dark wood, I couldn�t believe how nice it was. Not everyone is a hater, anyone�s informed impression depends on which 996�s they�ve tried. Of course, most of the 996 haters don�t have ANY experience with the cars at all and are only �educated� by the internet.

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I don�t disagree at all but the point I�m getting at is it�s the same stupid argument, it�s the pot calling the kettle black. Everything you listed hasn�t happened to my car BUT I�m not saying it won�t. At every car meet there are certain groups that say the same until they get to my car with a full carbon interior, standard leather seats and lower compartment. They simply can�t accept that a nicely sorted out interior existed on a 996. Walk up to their car expecting some gorgeous interior and honestly� nothing.

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Totally agree. One of the great mistakes in my life was when I graduated college there was a 911T used low miles for sale at the local dealer. Same color green as my 912. I would go and visit it trying to make up my mind. I was in love with it but I couldn't pull the trigger. As my only driver I was worried about storage for vacations with girlfriends. So I passed on it for a US muscle car. I still dream about it and think how my life would have been different had I bought the 911. It is really akin to thinking about the girl I lost that I still love.....with me there seems to be a linkage between cars I've owned and the woman of the day...

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That may be true, but the air cooled cars had their serious issues, from head studs pulling out, valve guide wear, rubber distributor belt failures from ozone, to CELs from SAI clogging. None are actually as bad as grenading an engine. These are not quality issues, they are design issues (or deficiencies). That's a different thing altogether, but not unexpected when you are charting new waters. In the case of the 996 and 997 engines, Porsche was attempting to lower costs and increase power output. That's a tricky venture.

It's all about perspective. In 2004 when I first started tracking my car I had a driving instructor with a 964 RS America. At the time it was standard in the region for the instructor to take the students car out on the track first to show the line and make sure the car was properly sorted. He couldn't stop raving about the power, chassis and interior, not to mention how nice the 996 was in relation to the earlier models. We have allowed the knuckleheads of the world to brainwash the community in thinking that the water cooled 996 just wasnt up to previous model standards. Hogwash.

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I don't have a lot of experience with them but if my car had a nicer feeling 'horseshoe' and some kind of covering over the plastic center console I believe it would greatly change my opinion of the interior. As for the quality of the rest of the car, I seriously doubt there is much difference between a 993 and a 996.

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to me the quality of the interior doesn't stand out in any 911. You can get a nicer interior in a similar year audi or a mercedes for less. of course thats not the point. lokasil and IMS bearings. just have to accept it and roll with that one. my solution to this is not going to places where guys that like that hang out.

Am I the only one that finds the simplistic minimalistic design of the Porsche car so intriguing? my new Macan S was sorta technical and all that Audi bling (maybe not as advanced) but something special is what you don�t see. The effort in engineering that makes these ride steer and handle the way they do. Maybe that�s the allure i have. Like a 70s and 80s Benz. Felt like a rolling vault. Nothing crazy fancy going on but seemed were special ? I guess the design flaw of the IMS was a bit of, well a pretty big gaff but didn�t Audi drive them selfs at one point and bmw E60 M5 engine can self destruct as well?

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Yep.

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Yeah, the air cooled interiors are just amazing! As are VW Beetles�🤣

Pros and cons to both. Having been in some older and newer Porsches detailing I would say there just isn't much to the old ones, they are pretty simple in terms of interior and exterior builds. Also, don't air-cooled engines need to be rebuilt every so often? Like as in it's a service interval type thing? Feel like the only cars that should require engine rebuilds as service are race cars lol.

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Done by a previous owner prior to the clutch needed replacement. Actually the issue is the release bearing with the clutch being replaced "while we're in there". Replacing it in any case, but I'm hoping the clutch will show easy use for 66,000 miles.

I have been in some G-Bodies and 928s and my 944 and 951 basically have the same interior as a late G-series or 964. I wouldn't say that the 996 interior is any less quality. I think my 996 interior is quite nice personally and has held up very well to the test of time. Far better than the dashes, door panels, etc. of the 60s to early 90s cars. The interior is different, but I wouldn't say inferior, especially if nicely optioned. Also, I will say that the Porsche interiors at least 996 and before (can't speak for anything newer) are very high quality and hold up much better when compared to other manufactures. Look at any American manufacturer from the era and their interiors were garbage. If you have any buddies with a Gen 2 Cummins and want to give them a heart attack go give their dash a nice firm pat. Even look at other German cars. I find a lot more BMWs, Audis, and Benzs with interior issues than Porsches. Even with similar miles.

Well, no matter which manufacturer used it, soft touch paint is the devil’s spawn! Other than that I like my simple 20 year old cockpit.

[QUOTE=Argeo;18317284 Is there an argument for the quality of the 996/997 [/QUOTE] Compared to what? I tell friends it's a street legal go-cart with reclining leather seats. If you want a Jeep, buy a Jeep. If you want a Lexus, buy a Lexus.

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You probably made the right decision. By the time I'd worked my way through college, I was on my 5th or 6th bug. A Porsche was always the goal after graduation and when a 'deal' came up on a '72 T, I blew my meager savings on it. Even though I had done all my own work on the VWs, it became pretty clear that I was in over my head both mechanically and financially on this particular car. On top of that, I was living on a sailboat and the marina didn't allow any car work in the parking lot. This is also what taught me to not have an old exotic car as your only transportation. I hear you. After the 911T didn't work out, I went back to VWs. Then I moved to a 914 in the mid '90s. And then in 2002, a '70 911T which was eventually replaced by the 996. I loved the T but it's really apples and oranges comparing it to the 996.

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Mine was turning down a '73 RS, yes, an RS, for the sum of $10,000 because I didn't really want to take up the garage space.

Marv marv marv wtf an RS no less shoulda woulda coulda reflect but don’t dwell your doing great 👍

I think my early build (2/98) 1999 C2 manual coupe with almost 80K miles looks and drives better than a 25 year old car should. The paint looks nicer than most new cars and the interior has held up extremely well. It looks almost new inside and still smells like leather when you get in. The 996 will always be the entry level and perceived as the �cheap� 911. Most people with older or newer 911s will continue to look down on it. And I don�t care because I know how great it is

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Yeah, I had a full stable of three different 944s at the time, including a concours 944S that hogged the garage with a ‘88 Turbo S. The 944S should have gone as it was rarely driven and ultimately sold for what I could have had the RS. Then I would have had to rebuild the 2.7 engine, but that’s normal for those cars. But the GT3 is good enough. I can drive that daily and I pretty much do. And the A/C is ice cold.

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Hah. Good to see you can make lemonade out of lemons! Joking aside, seems like you have a pretty good thing going with the 996 GT3. Gets even better with age!

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definitely the headlight switch in the 996. Such a nonsense part that realistically simple part that seems to fail regularly. Door latches, window regulators, come to mind as well. Not a great fan of the rubbery coated interior parts like the console and such. The body and trim on the outside and fitment of these parts is much better it�s a very sturdy unibody car, that seems to resist body corrosion well, unlike the previous versions. The engines are the weak point, simply because they are so expensive to rebuild

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Great memories and wonderful pics!! Back in the day for me, cameras were a different thing. I don't think I ever owned one until my first marriage.

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It's the perfect "sports car" as far as I am concerned. It is still a very basic, raw, car with enough creature comforts so it is useable on a daily basis, rain or shine. Maybe the RS version might be better, but they are so close to each other that it isn't a big gap.

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Mine was turning down a 964 RS America for $8k because it had a rebuilt title.

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Ouch.

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"Performance" doesn't strictly equate to speed - "better performance" can be seen in many aspects of each successive generation, including but not limited to; power, braking, suspension, electronics, paint quality, rust resistance etc... re: Interior... I have to agree. Whenever someone rides in my car (full leather interior) I invariably get comments on how nice it is and the "quality feeling". I've certainly never gotten a comment along the lines of "I really like your car, but the interior... it looks so cheap"... nope not even from the air cooled guys...

People find faults with all cars, just enjoy what you enjoy.. If I had to vent about 911's at all its that they have just gotten so bloated, bigger and bigger on each version. If I wanted an enormous luxo-land-yacht I'd buy an suv, why can't porsche keep the 911 a reasonable size?

Y'all are gonna laugh at me but I really feel like this 996 is a spiritual cousin of my NA Miata. The Miata was my first new car purchase and I drove it for almost 20 years until I was run off the road. Other than the convertible bit, my 996 feels much like that car. The Miata's interior was well designed but simple and yeah a little plasticky but I never felt the least bit short changed. I feel the same about the 996, in fact the interior is a bit of an upgrade over the Miata so I'm happy as a clam. Of course I didn't pay $80K for it either so I'm not having to swallow that pill. Still, I'm struck every time I go out for a drive how much the 996 feels like a slightly larger and more powerful NA Miata that handles every bit as well, at least in my barely competent hands. It's a perfect step up from my MX-5 in every way...except for maybe that blinker stalk. I do have to say the shadow of a $25K engine rebuild takes a bit of the enjoyment out of it but I'm trying to mentally leave that bridge for later crossing if it ever comes to it.

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It is not exclusive to to 911s, most cars are bigger. Go stand next to any sedan from that era and its modern counterpart is going to be bigger. I think part of it is Porsche caters to their audience and I would imagine most people buying prefer all that luxury stuff and that is why they have the sport specific variants. I think another reason is all the safety requirements, not that safety is a bad thing.