Getting an IMS solution- Is this everything else I should get done

So I'm going to be going and getting the IMS and clutch done at one of the certified installers. Its a 100mi trip so I want to get as much preventative maintenance done as possible. The car is a 2000 C4 Cab with 60K miles. The plugs and coil packs were changed out less than 10K miles but several years ago. Looking at other threads it seems like everyone should 1) IMS solution 2) Clutch 3) Check/replace RMS 4) water pump 5) engine mounts 6) Serpentine belt My particular car needs 1) Left rear window regulator 2) Convertible top error (If I haven't fixed this myself. See associated thread of pain and misery) 3) Cam tensioner pads (my deviation is 6 degrees. which irks me as I got a PPI and this was not mentioned) I'm glad they are doing the pre installation inspection as the longer I have had the car the more suspect I am about my PPI. That being said the car seems to run great. What am I missing or should consider. Given some of the threads with high estimates what should I expect to pay for the usual suspects (the first 6 things + the tensioners) I have to say despite some unexpected issues with the car the expert knowledge in this forum has made the whole process enjoyable Thanks M

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AOS if original.

Get a borescope done BEFORE installation of the Solution to inspect for bore scoring. It may affect your future planned budget.

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whoops that was supposed to be in the top list. Good catch. I believe they do the boroscope as part of the pre inspection process at the certified installers. M

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Isn't this a pre-requisite to having the solution installed? I would definitely scope the bores. Cylinders 5 and 6 at the very least.

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I have no idea if the OP's shop will follow recommended protocol.

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I would expect photos of each cylinder as well with a date stamp.

I would expect the shop to follow protocol but as they say...trust but verify

These guys are one of the few "certified installers" for the solution (the only one in SC). He gave a very detailed description of the process and promised to send photos.

Clutch slave cylinder?

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I do. If they don't I eject them immediately from the program. Second chances are not extended. The Certified Installer in SC is European Road & Racing. The owner of this shop is Karl Troy. It is a family ran business that is one of the best Certified Installers in the program. This 996 is in great hands- period.

Thanks Jake. I enjoyed talking to Karl quite a bit. I was a little rushed as I had several people waiting at my door (never fails). It sounds like the AOS and RMS are included as part of the install. Given the list in the first post is there anything else I should consider doing? M

Karl has a history that would crush most other's resumes.. As for what else to do, that's a question for Karl, and Sean. They have the car, they know these cars, and they have been trained, and evaluated to understand all aspects of these things. The only word that matters is theirs.

I didn't realize this place is right down the street from where I work. Will definitely use them as a resource down the road if needed as I'll probably update the retrofit to a solution at some point.

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I know where you found that red 996. Do I have to play "Rocky Top" to remind you?

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Ha! No reminder necessary considering I still have weekly nightmares of being stuck in that rental Jeep Compass from OH to TN.

Regarding IMS bearing. Nothing is as reliable and proven as the original design, a new one costs maximum 20 USD if you need it. Read the last 30 something posts in the IMS Discussion thread.

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First of all, be careful talking in absolutes. Second, if that statement were true, then Porsche wouldn't have had to make three IMS bearing designs.

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Have you read what I've written in the IMS discussion thread?

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I was in Nashville the week you bought that car. Heck, I should've rubbed up against it and you'd never have to worry about 31 modes of failure!

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What you've written holds no weight as you have no documented experience in R&D of a bearing. You simply parrot information that you read claiming as fact, rather than saying "this is my unconfirmed opinion...." 31?!?! That's asinine. I wonder if they will take the car back for a refund?

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I did stare at it. That's worth at least 3 years of problem-free Porsche driving. How long have you had it?

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You have obviously not read what I've written.

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Yes, I've read the sticky thread for many years... and, I've read your comments. What's your point? You want me to agree with you? Ok, try! Ready... set...GOOOOO! I'll wait. You're one man with one car with one opinion.

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I'm pretty sure it's been about thre..... three years...., damnit. Okay okay, enough derailing OP's thread...., I'll see you over in the Oil threads. I have. My opinion of your opinions remains the same.

If you read the thread you know I've reversed engineered the original IMS bearing and calculated lifetime(I used to work at SKF). Lifetime is well over million miles. It's not too weak as often(always?) stated, it dies of other reasons. An open bearing is not good since engine oil is not clean enough to lubricate it. Evidence for this is in this forum of broken(several) retrofit bearings etc. Read the other IMS sticky thread. Pretty much everyone is pulling out a perfectly fine bearing, no matter what miles they have. IMS solution, maybe, maybe not it's good, who knows, there is really too few people that have put serious miles on them to tell. Why the original bearing dies I've explained in the IMS disc. thread.

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I don't have opinions, I have FACTS. Know the difference.

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So now you're admitting the IMS ball bearings fail in this application, correct? You say load is NOT the primary cause of failure in this application, correct? Then, what do you claim is the sole reason for all of these failures? I warn you, if you deny that 6204 IMS failures happen on the scale that most rational minds agree, then I'm not taking this discussion any further because the next thing you're going to try to do is convince me the world is flat and Elvis never died and is currently riding in a UFO eating jelly donuts.

Give it a rest Nick, you pulled this same stuff over in the 997 forum a few weeks back until Pete slapped you down. Perhaps you are a modern-day prophet and we'll all live to regret ignoring your wisdom but that's a risk I'm willing to take. Don't think I'm alone.

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If that's the case, then demonstrate those "facts". Talk is cheap. Show us your lab. The peer-reviewed journal article of your research study or something. Photographes of the "reverse engineered" IMS bearing instu. How about some simple YouTube videos?

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I'm not denying that failures happens, that is a FACT also. But it's not because the design, or use, of a sealed 6204 ball bearing(or the other versions) is bad. IT NEEDS TO BE SEALED by the way. I've already explained this in the IMS discussion thread. If the bearing is good, it's good, no stress. All you need to do is inspect it and replace if it show any sign of wear or damage. The main reason why some fail is that they are already damage(to different degrees) when deliver to the first owner. The other is that you abuse it with high temps and ****ty oil.

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Based on your logic, the primary modes of failure for the bearing are threefold: 1. Damaged bearings at the factory 2. The engine generates excessive temperatures beyond what the bearing can handle 3. Contaminated engine oil Am I following your theory correctly? Or, did you want to add to this list?

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One trick pony. Just lurks for a thread that mentions IMSB and comes in with the same old "read from post(insert # here)". Seems like a serious fixation...

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Take a look in the mirror. I'm well aware of the difference, which is why you don't see me spewing misinformation based on my opinions.

You know, I'm trying to help people, save them some dollars. Not buy placebo. I'm giving them a valid 20 dollar option to the +2k option(s). NO ONE have found any errors in the FACT I have posted in the IMS thread, NO ONE. Let that sink in for a bit. B3freak, correct. 2 and 3 are valid if you don't take care of your car or abuse it. How to take car of the car correctly and its limit of operation(not abuse) is in the users manual. The manual needs to be read carefully.

tells self - try not to say anything....try not to say anything...

Tells self, c'mon Joe, give me your best.

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The same original 996 manual that recommends 15,000 mile oil changes?

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Nick, for the sake of the argument, please answer my question. In your post, (see highlight above) you state the following 3 reasons for failure: 1. The "main reason" is the bearing is damaged BEFORE the first owner purchases the car 2. Extremely HIGH temperatures inside the engine 3. Contaminated engine oil Are these the THREE reasons you believe the IMS bearings fail in this application?

B3freak, correct. 2 and 3 are valid if you don't take care of your car or abuse it. How to take car of the car correctly and its limit of operation(not abuse) is in the users manual. The manual needs to be read carefully. My manual states very clearly that the engine oil quality(among other things) is strongly effected by driving style, is subjected to extreme conditions and should be checked regularly and changed if needed. If you don't read the manual carefully, you might think that 15,000 miles it THE oil change interval. This is written in the warranty and service book.

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Which one is NOT in your threefold theory of IMS bearing failure? You said first: " The main reason why some fail is that they are already damage (to different degrees) when deliver to the first owner. " Then second, you stated, " The other is that you abuse it with high temps" and lastly, you stated, "S***ty oil" That's three modes to Nick's theory of IMS failure. Correct? You keep saying 2 and 3 are valid. Therefore, you're saying your MAIN reason is NOT valid??? If not, explain.

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During the fact-finding stage of your study, how many Porsche M96 cars were chosen by random insitu?

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In the fact-finding stage of your study, how many participants received the placebo? Surely, you're not suggesting bearing outside of an academic study are placebos?

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In the fact-finding stage of your study, did the random sample of cars receive a sealed 6204 and an unsealed 6204 bearing? If not, how did you come to the conclusion that the factory 6204 sealed bearing retains it's factory packed grease and should NOT have seals removed?

Thanks for all the discussion guys. I appreciate that everybody is trying to do me a solid. I am getting preventative maintenance. Whether its the IMS,RMS, AOS or the water pump failure can get expensive. Are any or all of them going to fail? Probably not, but failure can be expensive and require a major overhaul or rebuild (which I can't afford as this is my daily). I'd rather start out fresh. That way if anything happens I won't second guess myself . Since they all require the engine to be pulled you may as well do them all if your going to do one. Honestly its the same with the clutch. I don't need a new clutch but changing it now gives me thousands of miles of use before I have to worry about it. M

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Maybe my english is not that good, sorry. What I'm trying to say is that you will not have extrem temperatures or contaminated oil (2 and 3) if you take care of your car. Then these two are non-issues. number 1 is not up to the owner, hence it might be a good idea to inspect it. Ball bearings have been studied for 100's of year. Scientist and researcher have subjected them to all kinds of forces, clean/dirty/wrong oil to make up engineering tools to calculate life time. They are so well understood now days that you can fairly accurately calculate their lifetime, FACT. My calculations/analysis are in the IMS disc. thread if you want to double check it. In a case when you don't have this information you go ahead and make empirical test as you wrote in your last posts. But now we can be smart, since someone have already done this empirical testing, and use that information.

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Yep, and of course, removing all those individual wear components of the OE bearing design, is what makes The IMS Solution the practical choice for the wise purchaser. At the end of the day, when the OE bearing design fails, it is all these individual parts; like the *****,and cages that contaminate the oil system, and create a lot of the collateral damage that becomes costly. The IMS Solution has none of that.. Some of this is well explained in Part 7 of the "Focus on IMS Bearing Failure" series here: You Tube The only time the engine needs to be pulled to facilitate an IMS Retrofit (using the procedure I created) is if the car has a Tiptronic transaxle. Manual transaxle equipped cars are able to have the engine left in the chassis, and only transaxle removal is required. Just like a clutch job..

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Nick, you realize that 996 and 986 cars were failing within the warranty period, right? You also understand during the warranty period, Porsche dealerships change fluids and monitored the health of the car, right? That means under the care and control of Porsche service centers, these cars were still dropping like flies. (It is well documented) This became especially true during the 6204 single row bearing days. Most M96 Carrera owners did NOT track their cars which would have voided any warranty. These two cars were instrumental in saving the company from bankruptcy; therefore, it was in Porsche's best interests to suppress knowledge of the issue and replace engines under warranty. This did not change the fact that Porsche recognized a problem with using a ball bearing to support one side of the intermediate shaft. Think about it. The basic configuration of the M9X engine didn't change from 1997 - 2008, but the engineers did introduce THREE versions of the bearing before completely eliminating it in the model year 2009. Common sense would tell you that somewhere in the depths of Porsche headquarters in Stuttgart, they recognized they screwed up with putting a ball bearing in this application and the only answer was engineer an engine without an immediate shaft. If you truly worked for SKF, then you'd know that bearing manufacturers rate bearings by load. Different quality and types of bearings have better or worse load rating. I've neven seen a sealed bearing manufacturer rate a bearing by it's packed grease. You clearly have stated that it's important to keep the IMS bearing grease seal in place. Therefore, the quality of engine oil should NOT be a factor based on your theory. Correct? Here's the problem. It is pretty well-known that over time the bearing seal will be compromised which allows engine oil to pass through the bearing seals thus washing the packed grease out. At that point, the bearing will not work as originally designed, correct? The bearing is now subject to a lesser quality and viscosity of lubrication. I'm sure we don't want to go down the rabbit hole of physics, but most would agree that grease is vital to minimizing friction within a ball bearing. Once load forces are placed on an unlubricated bearing, friction works to deteriorate the structure of the bearing over time. We also know that engine oils that are contaminated with fine debris and combustion gases are NOT healthy for a bearing over time. It seems that all the variables in this equation lead to the load being the biggest contributor to bearing failure in this application. Again... the bearing in this application. This bearing would work perfectly fine in other applications, but not in this engine under the stress, temperatures, and ultimately loads these engines create. Porsche recognized that with the 997 and the large single row 6305 bearing that is very robust in comparison to the other two. Porsche also knew the plain bearing was the superior choice of all types. Why? Because they chose to continue to use it in their Mezger engines and it supports one side of the M96 intermediate shafts. Have you EVER, EVER heard of any failures of the plain bearing side of the intermediate shaft in this application? I'll wait. And the point is? What? They've been studied for a long time therefore they'll never fail? Elephants have been around seen the beginning of time, but you won't see me riding one into work. You keep pointing me to the discussion thread for which I've read. You posted HERE. Your findings here and THERE really hold very little merit. You talk about "FACTS", but you haven't proven anything that most rational minds have already decided including the mothership Porsche themselves. Quit thinking they had it right with the ball bearings. They know they screwed up. We know they screwed up. Face the music my friend.

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Every single point you brought up I have evaluated, and more. I'm not trying to 'prove my point', I just want to know what the reality is. So, I sat down and did the numbers. Some people appreciate knowing the reality. The reason for having good oil is to not damage the seals. That's not too hard to understand, right? If your seal is toast, well, your bearing will also last a little bit longer if the oil that gets in is not too dirty. The rest of the engine will also appreciate clean oil. I think(but have no fact) that they used three because: the first one went obsolete, second got bad-rep so they went with the third for political reasons. Most people only have a vague idea how bearings work(like you), and a bigger one gives the impression that the problem is solved. Read what you wrote and remove everything which is speculation or based on speculation. You need hard facts to come to the correct conclusion. Yes, I've seen GT3 IMS bearing failure, there is a thread on another forum about it. Caused by lack of lubrication. EDIT: Here is the thread, my mistake, it was a turbo but still Mezger engine.: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-turb...il-filter.html

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I've said it before, & I'll say it again... Nick L is a legend in his own mind - take his opinions (what he considers facts) with a huge pile of salt... Carry on

See you in the next IMS thread

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I think the "retreat" emoji would have been more appropriate. How many M9X engines have you built personally? Have you ever experienced an IMSB failure personally? How many "20.00" IMS Bearings have you personally installed into an M9X engine? Moreover, what I am asking, is do you follow your own advice, and if so, on how many occasions?

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I am sure the OP has REALLY enjoyed four pages of raging debate on the IMS Solution To OP: besides what is going to be done, good time to replace the thermostat with the water pump, check all of the pulleys for the serpentine belt, and put in a new air filter since the air filter box will be out. Hopefully the "clutch" includes a new dual mass flywheel, clutch plate and pressure plate, and the upgraded pivot arm and bearing. Might also consider a new slave cylinder since the transmission will be out. I hope you have great success and confidence that all will go well with Jake's Certified Installer! You have made the right choice in my opinion.

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Again, talk is cheap. At this point, all you have is opinion. Prove me wrong. Show us your research. Photos of axial/radial load tests. Lab results. Videos? Nope. Wrong. You can still get the OEM dual row bearing. Just talked to a shop owner in Germany last week that prefers to install those bearings back in Mk1 cars. Now we're getting somewhere. Before I give you my theory on why they eliminated the 6204, please SHOW us documented evidence that Porsche moved to the 6305 large single completely out of politics. Ready... set... go! You're right. You're English is poor. You don't know me from Adam's house cat. You might be surprised what I've been involved with for the past 2 years. Again, you don't know me or my experience. I didn't come to this thread nor the IMS discussion thread claiming my words are absolute FACT like you. I'm constantly learning like everyone else in the world. My thoughts on the subject were ascertained from eye witness personal accounts, talking with Porsche representatives, reading all the facts in the Bruce Eisen U.S. class action lawsuits, reading the endless IMS failure threads on more than 15 Porsche M96 forums, etc. etc. etc. Nick, I really don't know what you have to gain by holding to the point-of-view that contradicts years of undeniable, indisputable evidence on the subject that the OEM bearings, especially the 6204, were problematic and attributed to an indefinite number of M96 engine failures. It's easy to place the blame other contributing forces, but every time it was tried, it pointed back to the bearing. Listen, if you can't offer more than just words and opinions, then most people will stop responding to your comments. They'll find you insignificant. Therefore, I encourage you to take my challenge and present the stages of your "study". You like to you the word "FACT" and so show us some FACTS. If you truly worked at SKF beyond being a janitor, receptionist, etc, then you know the testing equipment necessary to prove your point.

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We are talking bearings. So, Jake, please tell me, how many ball bearings have you built and assembled? I've hand built a few thousands. I almost follow my own adivce. The IMS bearing in my car have zero documentation of ever being sorted or inspected. My advice is to inspect it but I know the risk is so damn small I don't intend to do that.

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What matters, is I did the first one. Numero Uno.. My tools, and procedures are used by every copycat in the market. You failed to answer my questions. Unfortunately that means that you don't possess the required experience with these engines to rate an argument with me. Raby- Out.

I enjoy my IMSS. After years of fighting it I gave in. No longer do I dream of Jake building me a monster 4.0 after IMSB failure Sad IMSS, clutch, throwout bearing kit, RMS and AOS. Shop did test AOS and it was in spec. That said shop recommended replacement, while tranny was out and no labor charge so i went ahead with their recommendation. Said something about high failure rate and not easily replaced while tranny in car.

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If it does go boom , please just give us the courtesy to come and admit you were wrong.

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Doing all those things together is the only way that I used to do the work.. We installed a little over 700 IMS Retrofits, and had the system down to a T, with preventative packages and etc to help the owner realize what the engine needed, and what could be done for free while we were already there. We haven't done an IMS Retrofit job in almost 2 years, I shut down that side of things to create an engine factory, and now the maximum that we do with vehicles is installation of our engine. I don't miss those old days at all. Things are much simpler now.

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The last guy didn't... But I busted him anyway, and made him answer for it in public.

My daughter has just got a toy. The game is to put a square thing into a square hole, a circular thing into a circular hole etc you know the toy. She can't do it yet but in a few months she will get it. Assembling a circular bearing into a circular hole isn't rocket science. Assembling an engine isn't rocket science either. There are millions and millions of engines produced every year by the cheapest, uneducated, work force you find. I don't see how that will help calculate forces and understand bearings. A degree in engineering probably will, if you payed attention during the classes. B3freak: I speculated (and even wrote I had no fact) and you didn't like that. That shows you how speculation is wort less. I hope you learn the lesson. You have still no idea how bearings work or engineering. It doesn't matter what I write/show, you will not get it. IF you think you are smart enough to understand what I write, ALL the data you need I have published in the IMS discussion thread. Here it is again since you don't seam to be able to find it: There is one small detail that really sets my writing appart from anyone else, can you spot it? 10h of work to get that. I think the problem with the reality is that it's too hard to understand for the majority. It's much easier to just think "remove & replace" with something "stronger". That's why IMSB is such a sh*t storm of opinions.

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Answer: You have poor English skills?

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That's also a FACT.

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Don't laugh too hard... When fighting to get the Patent for the IMS Solution one piece of prior art that we had to differentiate from was a plain bearing, that was oil fed to support axles on a locomotive....

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My French is pretty bad too. It's ok.

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So you had to prove The Solution didn't have a wicking device to feed oil to the bearing!!??