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YOUR RESEARCHHow Really Prone to Failure are they?
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issue, one of the most easily
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Reported cause
IMSB is certainly proven to be an issue, one of the most easily solved issues that can contribute to the big bang.
Leading evidence: 'issue, one of the most easily' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'issue, one of the most easily' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Install (at least it has two stickers' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Reported cause
It's definitely true that replacement M96's are hard to find, but that scarcity is caused by multiple factors, only one of which is mortality.
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on it and It's had two LN IMSB's installed (at least it has two stickers on it) - the last one at 100,000 mi.
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As you rightfully mentioned, Porsche replaced a slew of engines for things as minor as RMS issues and never revealed ANY failure statistics.
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Some days I realize that finding a good car, making sure it is a known starting point (PPI) and continued maint., are probably all I need for a positive used 996 experience.
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Suggestion
Or, instead of NOT buying the car I want, I could purchase it and budget in an additional $2500-3500 and change the clutch and IMS before I bring it home.
Replace engine would certainly keep me up at night
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Suggestion
If my budget for a car was $15k-$20k, my concerns about the possibility of dropping the same money to replace the engine would certainly keep me up at night,
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Suggestion
Ryan, get a PPI from a reputable gear head and ask them to splice the oil filter and be willing to cover an oil change obviously for the seller if you don't buy it in the case there is any signs of metal in the filter.
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I cross posted this from the Solution Vs Retrofit thread:
I have no idea where that author came up with his statistics. He'll be getting a message soon asking for the data, and we'll be verifying that those two cases that had a retrofit bearing fail weren't already failing beforehand.
I've had more IMSB failure calls this week than he claims in his entire "study". Maybe he should come answer our phones and emails for a week, and make the entries into the failure log.
Flat6, if you would post here photo of all these IMS you are doing, I think you would help your business and credibility.
so I think your business is running on scare tactics more than anything, and many people are replacing their IMS preventively.
I do not see any 996 with broken engine very often, if any for sale, either on ebay, craiglsit or here. I mean I would be curious to see that number being superior to 10 yearly. while you seems to replacing IMS at numbers that should fix all 996 on the market pretty soon.
Posting them all here would be fear mongering.. Already tried that.
See www.facebook.com/fixBrokensix
For a ton of failure and preventative photos all situated in albums by owner. About 1/2 our customers allow us to post their photos, and there's plenty there, updated daily in most cases.
People that follow us see them, I have learned that if someone doesn't follow us, they don't care to see them or even hear about what we experience.
I guess I should persuade every failure caller to post their story on the forum; else it didn't happen.
My favorite statistics story. Not sure how it will translate to print. This is a true story.
First some background. My wife and I are both 100% Serbian. When she was pregnant with our fifth child, we told my father and he said "that's interesting." I said why interesting? He said "well, every fifth child born in the world is Chinese and he always wanted a Chinese grandchild."
The FB link doesn't work... Personally, I'd love to see the photo's. While I don't consider myself overly paranoid, I am very interested in this subject matter. My '99 has over 137,000 mi. on it and It's had two LN IMSB's installed (at least it has two stickers on it) - the last one at 100,000 mi. with a new clutch (done by previous owner)...
Guys, I can't blame Jake. Think of this, when you go to the oncologist, what do you do, ask for death certificates as proof of prognosis? Come on! The truth is that all Jake sees is dead engines...well mostly. So inherently, he will always be careful and over careful at times but deviating from his recommendation is a gamble by the owner. So no I don't need to see phone records.
Jack sees 10 failures a week. All other counter information must be ignored!! Only facts that fit the narrative are valid.
There are 175,000 996s out there and another 164,000 986s. Even if Jack is telling the truth and sees 520 failures a year (or 10 a week every week year in and year out), and lets say he is getting 20% of the total failures in the world (how many engine builders are there?), that is a .007% chance of failure every year.
It is easy to lose perspective and forget just how many of these engines are out there.
I don't think a mechanical discussion should become a forum for personal attacks. We have enough of Jake's customers here...people who he has spent hours on the phone with to give advice and help...that I don't think he has to prove himself to anyone.
To me the IMS is like my prostate...it might be a little large but the stream is strong so at this time I'll just wait and see.
Not attacking anyone. A lot of statements as "fact" with no proof to back them up. I would just rather have verifiable facts than rectoric. So while I don't doubt he may know his way around a 996 engine I read a lot of the latter and very little of the former and question any business that operates on FUD and rhetoric as their marketng strategy.
Its not any excuse at all.. Put simply, no one has helped us pay the time and money required to gather it. I certainly won't give it away.
I have learned that the more I share, the more people can't handle it, and the more friction ends up occurring.
As someone who has been researching a 996 Carrera as my next car, I can honestly say the fear of an IMS failure is very real to those of us who've never had the pleasure of owning a Porsche.
I know exactly 1 person who had a 996. What happened to it? The IMS gave up and his motor was toast.
Now, I understand how the forum game works; for every IMS failure thread there are thousands of people who are driving around with no worries/concerns.
When I bought my M5 everyone talked about carbon build up. Never an issue for me.
When I bought my M3, everyone talked about bushings/crappy interior, etc.. Never an issue for me.
All that being said, the cars in my price range are going to be in the 75-100k mile range, or, in the $15-20k price range. The last thing I want is a $15k bill for a new motor, I simply couldn't afford that currently. With that frame of mind, a $1k bearing seems like a relative bargain especially if installing a new clutch and having everything torn apart anyway.
Does anyone have links to aftermarket bearings failing?
Ryan, get a PPI from a reputable gear head and ask them to splice the oil filter and be willing to cover an oil change obviously for the seller if you don't buy it in the case there is any signs of metal in the filter. This should be your base starting point.
I've almost always gotten a PPI on cars where I'm spending more than $5k
I guess what I'm saying is, I'd still likely get an aftermarket bearing installed if I was going to be doing the clutch,
just in case
..
The good news is, at 75-100k miles many of the cars you are looking at have had the service done, or they will need it soon. That is clutch mileage for many of these cars and more and more owners are having the retrofit done. If it hasn't been done use ~$3000 as your starting point for a deferred maintenance discount off the asking price. 99% of sellers know to expect this on this model.
You guys questioning Jake need to do some more reading. He has nothing but sterling references from the community. He has done more to help save these engines than anyone on the planet. My guess is that by now he has no need to actively market fear in order to make a living. The facts/failures are out there and certainly as the cars age we will see a rise in those failures. This guy is a huge asset! Let us foster that relationship rather than snap at the hand trying to help.
No offense to Ryan, but this is where 996 ownership is headed. These "new" owners can afford a $20,000 car but can't afford the possible cost of ownership. This is why the IMS Paranoia is increasing.
If my budget for a car was $15k-$20k, my concerns about the possibility of dropping the same money to replace the engine would certainly keep me up at night,
But the chances of that catastrophe are very slim.
What is a real possibility however (and this is assuming you are not a DIY'er) are the things that can and will fail eventually. $1,200 AOS replacement, $1,300 Water Pumps and $1,000 window regulators would have me counting sheep as well.
Hell, at many times in my life, so would a $180 oil change.
Of course you can halve those costs if you are willing to DIY. The fact is though, many of the parts ARE quite expensive, just bumbling around on the web I discovered a ~$580 power steering pump. I am not saying they fail, just that if something
does
, it gets painful quickly.
These are still a GREAT buy, just be prepared for some 10-15 year old car issues now and then, and hedge you bets against engine failures to your budget and fear level. Heck, some days I get so worried I consider getting Raby's list of common failure modes and fixes and budgeting some or all of them in. Some days I realize that finding a good car, making sure it is a known starting point (PPI) and continued maint., are probably all I need for a positive used 996 experience.
I have decided in my searches over the last month or two to increase my initial purchase price in order to find a very nice example. The 75-100k $15-20k cars almost all have long lists of work needing to be done, not all but most I have seen.
THE #1 flaw I still see on these forums is still making the IMS the main convenient scapegoat. While I don't doubt there have been some primary IMS driven failures, there's been far less proper diagnosis done on a blown motor. In the past(and present), there's just not been enough qualified(or not lazy) individuals to get to the root cause of it. IMS to me is like a witch hunt where anything suspicious is automatically being tagged with it being at fault. Also in the past, dealers hardly took motors apart to diagnose and fix them but rather replaced them. If just replacing them and sending broken motor back to the factory, how can one honestly make any kind of diagnosis?
I find it ironic that peeps place so much emphasis and worry about a material thing that can be replaced.
Yet the same people do not worry about their healths like they do with the IMS, even though the chances might be greater in something happening in some circumstances.
Oh gawd, I must be bored as I just got suckered into another IXX discussion.
Well that is not exactly true as near as I can tell. There is a website and facetube page full of blown up, disassembled, diagnosed motors out there. There is a list of fixes for common failures, rod bolts, slipped sleeves, IMS, chains/tensioners/guides. We DO know how they fail, there are some fixes because the ground work has been done with NO help from the manufacturer. As you rightfully mentioned, Porsche replaced a slew of engines for things as minor as RMS issues and never revealed ANY failure statistics. Then they proceeded to re-man a bunch of garbage and send those back into the pool. It is a pretty big mess from what I have read.
So the gist of all of it is, the engine is flawed, it could blow up. If it does, it will nearly double your investment in the vehicle. IMSB is certainly proven to be an issue, one of the most easily solved issues that can contribute to the big bang. People would be wise to read up on the rest of the issues too. Seems that wasn't working out so well though and unfortunately much of the knowledge has been removed from the interweb. This driven by a bunch that hasn't lived the failure...yet. It is a very legitimate concern not matter how hard some try to play it down. As these cars continue to age it will become an even bigger concern.
I think it is insane to try and argue that only a few percent of cars will ever be affected. There looks to be some major quality control issues during this era with regards to cost cutting on engine manufacturing. I think there are a LOT more failures to come. I do not believe for a second that it is as random as some say.
So you don't buy any car unless you can afford a repair totaling the value of the purchase price
I recently sold my 10th BMW that I purchased, by myself. I'm a hands on, DIY kind of guy, I believe in preventative maintenance, and I typically replace parts BEFORE they start failing, often with superior parts if available. You dont own 10 BMWs (including 3 M cars) by being a moron and paying dealerships to change your oil and replace parts.
I *assume* any car I buy will need the following repairs within 10k miles of purchasing: clutch, suspension components, brakes, and all fluids. Why do I do that? So there are no surprises and I'm not let down IF any/some of the aforementioned parts fail. I account for the possibility that I may get hit with a $2-3k bill at any time, but if I can spend $1k to prevent the possibility of a $15k bill? Well, that's worth it to me, even though I know it's a slim chance of happening. The IMS isn't going to scare me away from buying the car, but I respect the possibility it could ruin the car for me in an expensive and catastrophic way.
I liken this repair to that of the e46 M3 sub frames which are notoriously weak. If you let the car reach the point where it starts tearing you're looking at up to an $8k repair bill. Now, you can take a chance and let it be, or you can spend $400 on a subframe reinforcement kit, plus $600 for a shop to weld it in and save yourself the possibility of a huge repair bill for a known weakness. Again, I would do that repair just for the peace of mind in knowing my car is much more likely not to have issues in the future..
Ryan, you will notice there are two predominant opinions on here. Some think the IMSB should be replaced if not already done as soon as possible. Others think replacing the IMSB is not needed and is just giving in to fear fostered on the forum. It only matters what you think as to the course of action you take.
Best and most concise analysis. Some peeps, just like religion and such, want others to agree with them hence the round and round, here we go again types of never ending posts.
Those same pages are what has propogated this to where it is today. Some will think it's BS artificial fear tactics. Others will believe whatever they read or come across. Most of us DO NOT know how they fail or everyone wouldn't have held their breath for Jakes book to come out, outlining the 25+ modes of failure. But now that the 25+ modes of failure isn't going to be published, there will be continued speculation from your avg joe on all ways they can fail and thus peeps will point the finger once again conveniently to the IMS.
Let's agree to disagree as I've had this conversation more than once since being on here.
i know many 996 and boxer owners.. you guys really aren't that bad, well most of you....lol.
I only know of one that had an issue. My sons best friends father had a 996 that lost the IMS at the stop light at the base of the bridge that comes onto the mainland...
I was pissed because he sold it for $4K. Had i known I would have bought it in a heartbeat...
turned out there was no damage, just the seal. Would have a sweet deal on the 996.. ( i do like them and think they are one of the best bargins on porsche land next to the 928 of course...lol)....
so they DO happen....
and they DO happen often enough for us to all know about it and it be a potential issue.
anyone that thinks they dont happen or the odds are not greater in these models is fooling themselves and is being an ostrich with his head in the sand.
I posted this event years ago and got flamed from the 996 guys as i guess i hit a nerve.. they called me a liar, etc... i was simply pointing out that i was bummed that I as not the one that bought it... i would like to add one to my stable..
No. You don't buy a 996. If the engine goes in most cars, you can repair or replace it for less than the value of the car. When I was in my early 20's I had a Ford Mustang II that I paid $3,500 for. Blew the engine and the rebuild was around $800. As I recall, the shop offered terms. My finances survived.
996's are just at that point where the cost of the car can be equal to the cost of the engine.
bull****, spun bearing shell. if the bolt would have cracked there wouldn't be any signs of heat on the rod. (see the blackspots) same reason my engine died
that is actually a maintanance item
cracked bolt is the consequence when the rod lost oiling, overheated, seized and all hell broke loose in that crankcase.
Maybe... not sure "bull****" was necessary.
I see one bolt broken inside what is left of the rod cap and, I see another rod bolt that does not appear damaged at all. Looks to me like one was found in the pan, or on the ground, the other was still in the cap when it came apart. Had it been a rod bearing failure, would not both rod bolts likely have been destroyed?
I don't care one way or another, I was simply offering an opinion based on the above observation.
I was under the impression the M97 refers to the 3.8L, not a reference to all engines with later larger bearings. And I was also under the impression that the early 3.8L in the first of the '05 S's used the small single-row bearing. I quit my subscription to Excellence mainly because I read too many examples of mistakes and misinformation in their Tech section.
anyway why would high srtrength bolt crack?
two options eithere there is excesive play due to worn bearing shells either this scenaro where it broke AFTER the shell spun and seized
all the crap going around with these cars being rubbish and bad designs and whatsoever.. (very annoying especially told by those who might not have a clue how the engine works) not pointing to anyone around here, but the internet is full with these -
I know and I can everything
people...
most of the cases will be due to neglective maintanance, of course noone will admit that after the damage is already done... or very high mileage
As an interested outsider to this IMS affair (I am contemplating entering the select club of 911 owners with a 996 C2), I was once under the naive impression I could determine what part of the discussion was genuine concern based on an examination of sufficient occurences of failure to compute satisfactory odds or collective hysteria resulting from a lack of objective knowledge allowing an informed decision. To this day, after months of reading the vast doctrine made available on this site and others, I don't know what buying a 996 really entails as far as odds; still sounds like gambling on a gamble to me, with no hedging instrument.
This said, I have none of the expert knowledge of many substantial contributors, but one fact speaks to me in particular: the unavailability at reasonable cost of used engines. Statistics are the same across a class of vehicle, a certain percentage of sports cars the likes of a 911 will be destroyed in an accident, creating a market for salvaged parts. That is how one can find a used M3 engine off a wrecked car, a S2000 engine, and so on, all at reasonable prices largely based on demand for these replacement motors. The relative difficulty of finding a good M96 under 10,000$ tells me these motors are snatched up faster and at a higher price because of unusually high demand (i.e unusual failure rate).
Of course, what do I know...
OK.. Try to remain calm
I NEVER said the rod bolt cracked, YOU keep saying that. ONE of the rod bolts is broken, the one that is in what is left of the cap. THE OTHER rod bolt looks like it is completely intact with just a few dings on it.
There is a known issue of rod bolts backing out and falling into the pan. This was likely the cause of Cudas failure except his bolt was sucked up by the timing chain and broke the case open before the rod could come apart.
I am simply trying to relay what I see and correlate it with what I have read. The one rod bolt looks fine. I am suggesting it was not in the rod at the time of failure. Not sure why this makes you so uneasy?
I reject the premise of the question.
I'm not a genius but I'm smart enough to know I didn't screw up and buy a car that is "prone to failure"!
I bought one that is around 90% catastrophic failure proof.
The again, maybe I am wrong and that is not a full length rod bolt in the foreground of the picture.... Looks long enough... maybe broken on the end but that seems unlikely.
If the argument is that neglectful maintenance causes failures, yes, certainly some. I also agree that early on Porsche was just swapping engines to try and save face. Still, there are tons of documented failures on cars that were well cared for. The fact that it is a crapshoot is what has driven values down.
What my research has indicated is that this was a NEW engine, it was built in numbers WAY beyond what Porsche was really prepared to produce. There are quality and assembly issues, no doubt in my mind. Happens to the best, quantum leaps in growth are difficult to manage and I think if you look, you can see that.
I think these cars are a steal, I am in the market to buy one. I know that it will likely end up with a Raby engine/upgrades and I will keep it a long time. Not a big deal, you just have to accept it going in. There are fixes, there is a demand for said fixes. That says me, the problems are more than marketing and scare tactics. The reason people pay for expensive fixes is because there are problems. The "too scared to know better" reasoning doesn't work for me.
Compared to the number of engines produced worldwide by Nissan and Toyota, many of which are shared between models, as well as the flood of import engines available from scrapped Asian cars, makes the pool of available candidates vastly different. Porsche engines are often specific to a model, and even a model year range - logic would suggest that I could just drop a '99 Boxster engine into my '99 911 without too much drama, but that's not the case. Sure, it can be done, but it's not a 2-hour-job with a chain hoist.
It's definitely true that replacement M96's are hard to find, but that scarcity is caused by multiple factors, only one of which is mortality.
now that I have removed this engine twice and installed it twis, just replacing it isn't really that much longer, in comparison to all the jap cars or vag group. replacing a 996 engine is virtually a piece of cake. (taking into consideration if you have the access to a ramp of course)
compared to conventional cars 996 is very logically laid out, even a beemer takes much more time (and that is one of the best in terms of logical intuitive design)
but yeah that is offtopic
Paranoia is at an all time high. The low cost of the 996 vs the high cost of the worse case scenarios is feeding that paranoia. It will only get worse as prices start to fall making the 996 available to the masses...coupled with additional failures that are going to be due to normal mechanical mortality that will no doubt be blamed n the IMSB.
In the 997 forums, it's just as bad. There needs to be a 997.1 and a 997.2 forum...just because of the IMSB.
But, let's get back on topic...
Also the fact that folks are snatching these up at great prices without knowing what they bought......it breaks and the stories end up here because they can longer afford the car. That is how I fell into my 997....car broke...owner couldn't afford to fix and sold it cheap. Bad for him good for me.
For me it wouldn't be the issue of being able to afford to put a new motor in mine, it would be the issue of whether it made economic sense to put more into a car than it could be sold for. I know some guys are like "I'm gonna keep it forever" and don't care, but I'm not really sentimental like that over a car. I'm more of a don't throw good money after bad type. Rather put $26K forward into a newer car.
Sometimes you keep a car because it is so damn good and nothing that is truly better is out there. Sure a new Porsche might go 182 mph and mine will only go 177...but let's be serious about the importance of these minor improvements. There's a road in Los Angeles, Mulholland Drive, that I've been on constantly since 1958 when I got my drivers license and my first car. I know the road like my own skin. I took a three mile stretch of it today in my 996 and I was in heaven. If my engine blew up tomorrow and the rolling chassis was only worth...what...five to seven thousand...I wouldn't think twice about rebuilding the engine. I'd spend $15000 in a heartbeat because it would simply mean my car was now even better than before. This 996 is my 27th car in the last 56 years. Two of them were dedicated race cars. There is nothing sweeter than an engine you have had built just for you. Every one of those cars, including the race cars, made the same drive I took today. I'd be thrilled if medical science and the gods of fate gave me another 56 years to spend on that road with this 996. It is the best of all I've owned. I'd give it a new engine in a New York minute if that's what it came to.
This may have been posted elsewhere, but a nice data point reminder in the Tech Q&A section of Dec. 2014 Panorama:
In the Eisen IMS class-action lawsuit published data from the case showed a failure rate of less than 1% with the early, dual-row bearings used in many 1997-2001 986s and 996s.
The same data indicated that the last version - an oversized, single-row bearing used in M97 engines in many 2007-2008 987s and 997s - also had a failure rate of 1%.
The bearing with the highest failure rate (8%) was the middle-generation design, a smaller, single-row bearing used in many 2001-2005/2006 cars.
Or, instead of NOT buying the car I want, I could purchase it and budget in an additional $2500-3500 and change the clutch and IMS before I bring it home. Peace of mind for 1/6th the price of a new motor.
** that price is based on me doing some of the labor and purchasing the parts myself. I have access to a shop and have the benefit of having an uncle that works on Ferraris for a living.
You cant have her, I've already claimed her as my own
It's not like 996's are unique...
$8,000 Hondarubaru owners snap their timing belts all the time and instantly go to zero value.
Does driving a 996 offer twice the reward for twice the risk? For most people, no, which is why the sell more honarubaru's then Porsches.
No, M97s are not just the 3.8 engines. The 3.4 in the '06-'08 Caymans are M97s.
And I believe the 3.6 engines in the 997.1s (after a certain point in 2006) were also M97.
I agree with errors in Excellence mag though. In fact there is an error in the article that is being referenced here relating to the year M97 engines were used in 987 Caymans.
The important point here is to know what year(s) Porsches used the M97 (which have the larger bearing) because the rate of bearing failure in M97s is a fraction of the bearing failure of the mid-996 engines with single row bearings.
guys you are so lucky to be able to get the rollers for those 5K
in yurp (europe) I got mine with unknown diagnosis, but still a roller for 10+K euros and they don't get cheaper even if the catastrophical damage has set in 8000 ~ 9000 euros to start with
about replacement engines the dealer in europe tells that 13000 eur, + core (on condition your engine isn't completely blown to pieces, dunno how they determine that) and 19000 eur if it is completely wasted
+ labour
sooo I believe it is much much cheaper to own a 996 in USA, (not concerning DIYers like myself)
There's more to the M97 differences than the IMSB. To us they're all M96s, because the change was very subtle between the two series of engines. Porsche needed desperately to make the cars appear like they had seen a completely new engine design- but that's not what happened. Lots of things on the outside changed, and not so much on the inside.
I see engines with an M97 designation frequently that have the M96 style IMSB factory fitted. These are 2005 only engines. It happens so much that I had to write an article about it for my customers with 05 vehicles that had IMSB questions.
Most writers in magazines are lost. They are "parrots" that are reading resource materials and rewriting things. Excellence had great tech articles when the late Jim Pasha was the writer, as well as the most former tech editor that left for Panorama, Tony Callas.
The magazines have to ensure they don't **** off readers, don't **** off advertisers (it's all about adverts to these magazine clowns, except for Pano) and that they don't **** off Porsche. Because if this the most direct and informative articles never make print. I know, I have been able to read many of them that were turned down.
Believe nothing of what you hear and only 1/2 of what you read. There's a good chance that the guy that wrote that article knows less than you do.
