looking for a hard answer on IMS issue

So, my '01 996 C4 has had an IMS failure. After combing through the forums I could not get a definitive answer if this demands an engine rebuild or a rebuild is needed after the engine has gone kaput. So some info, the car has 90k miles on it and the clutch went out. Took it to the Porsche mechanic by my house (whom I don't trust after some disagreements over my 944) and he pulled the oil pan. There were metal leafs in the pan and said the engine is toast. Now, there is(was) no knocking or ticking in the engine, no service lights have come on, and with the exception of the clutch going out, drove fine. Have I caught problem in time and only need to replace the IMS, or do I really need to rebuild the engine.

Tow it to another porsche shop and get a second opinion.

Read this thread entirely...: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...howing-up.html

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Thanks for the post. I think that the comments in that forum are the most sensible things I've heard all day. Just a quick synopsis for anyone else looking. Flush the oil, check it frequently, listen for problems. Rebuilding it before it blows up doesn't cost much less than rebuilding it after it blows up. I have another mechanic to look at about 30 minutes away and he does engine rebuilds. After a month or so I'll start getting "just in case" quotes. If I get another year or 2 out of it then I'll be happy. Thanks for the advice

Hope another mechanic with a strong background with the 996s will be able to properly diagnose your engine issue.

Was in the exact same sitaution. I feel your pain. Wish I could give you a hard answer but it would just be my opinion so I will stop.

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I would add - use a spin on oil filter adapter and magnetic drain plug also

Metal in the pan does NOT automatically equal IXX failure or the primary failure. That's the main problem of misdiagnosis that leads to half or a certain percentage of these claims getting falsely propagated on the net and the reason why where we are today with this. Consider there are over 25 modes of failure of which some can cause collateral damage to the IXX. One can't simply find metal bits in the pan and ASSume it was the IXX without doing further diagnosis. Dealerships didn't really have incentives to do this before as it made more sense to just get a replacement motor from the factory. However since now the motors aren't as widely available, I think more and more shops will actually have to do some good ole deep diagnostic work on these to truly get an accurate assessment on the situation. This should separate out the men from the boys as some clearly would not be capable to carry this out. Oh gawd, suckered into ANOTHER IXX post twice in 1 day...

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Hahahaha

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Without reading the other posts this may be a duplicate of what others have already offered... First why you would take the car to a mechanic you didn't trust is beyond me. I have to offer that dropping the pan with no clear reason to do so, without checking with you first, is well, let me say I think your lack of trust in this mechanic is justified. If you took the car in for a clutch problem with no complaints or issues regarding the engine I'd have to offer the engine is fine. Now I say this without having seen just what was found in the oil sump. If the tech found oodles of ferrous metal that could very well be from a failing IMS/IMSB. But I have to tell you that some metal trash in the oil sump is quite common and chances are the stuff has been there since right after the engine was first started and run. Has the oil filter housing oil/filter element been checked? If not have this removed and the contents carefully dumped into a *clean* drain pan. What you and your *trusted* tech see or do not see determines what you do next. If you find scary amounts of metal/trash in the filter then the diagnosis the IMS -- well, something internal in the engine is bad at least -- is correct. In this case you'll have to turn the car over to a tech you can trust who can properly assess the engine for its suitability for resurrection and can perform this if you decide to go this route. If you find nothing of any real concern in the oil filter housing oil and filter, then perform an oil/filter service if this service is due on time or miles, or just replace the filter and top up the oil level. Now if you really want to err on the side of caution after you start the engine and after you have let it idle a while -- always with you remaining very close to the ignition key so you can switch off the engine ASAP if need be -- you can drive the car until the engine is warmed up. Back at the starting point then drop the filter housing and check again for what's in the oil and filter. If you spot more trash, even if it is not scary, then there might be a problem. Your trusted tech can advise you. The odds are you will not find anything to be worried about. Just in case, I always advise that if while you are running the engine, as I offered above after installing a new filter or really at any time, if the engine starts acting up, making odd noises, shut off the engine as soon as it is safe to do so and do not attempt to restart the engine. The car should be flat bedded to a qualified shop for diagnosis and repair.

I just hope that you can continue to enjoy driving the car with some level of confidence. I would be on edge, listening for any little sound or sign from the gauges. My advice, offered at no charge: Get the car to a good Porsche mechanic soon and get a definitive answer. Waiting for a grenade to explode is no fun, even if it never explodes.

After rereading the post I think we all made different assumptions. I assumed while doing the clutch he dropped the trans and took out the IMS bearing and saw it was bad, then dropped the pan as part of the process of investigation then you may have problems. If he just dropped the pan and said you had problems get a new mechanic.

Well shake, you just pushed the IMSB failure rate back over %10 for the 996 poll. Thanks alot. BTW, what was in the oil filter? Sorry for your loss.

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http://1drv.ms/1v4RpOK Pictures of the oil pan and oil filter from the mechanic. Quick update. He's gonna do my clutch and and clean out the metal from the oil so I can get it out of the shop. As soon as the weather lets up I'm going to get a second opinion from another mechanic. Thanks again everyone for the advice

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The latter. Didn't even start working on the clutch, dropped the pan and saw metal. Pictures are in above post :/ Now from my research, the IMS is magnetic right? He said that the metal in the pan wasn't magnetic so it was coming from the engine and meant the engine was "toast" and needed a new one.

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The IMSB is ferrous. Pretty much the rest of the engine is aluminum. However, most (potential) wear surfaces are aluminum. These include the cylinders/pistons, camshaft bearings in the camshaft covers. (Some wear surfaces are plastic, composite plastic. I'm referring to the camshaft tensioner rail covers. Other wear surfaces, well, bearing surfaces consist of lead, copper, and tin. These make up the main/rod bearing shells. The crank/rod journal is steel. Camshaft chain rollers and sprockets are steel. Cam lobes and lifter buckets are steel.) I generally do not like to go against a tech. He's the professional. I'm not. He's seen the car, the engine. I have not. The pictures are not that bad, but they do not necessarily give the engine a clean bill of health either. (Mainly I say this because I'm to there to feel the stuff, and stir a finger in the filter housing to and feel the stuff between my fingers.) However, for an engine to be diagnosed as "toast" one would think the engine would be exhibiting signs of trouble. Ticking. Knocking. Misfires. Smoke. Something. So my diagnosis, FWIW, is the engine is fine. Let the tech clean the debris out the pan and get that sealed up nice and leak free. Be sure to clean the oil filter housing. Refill the engine with the proper amount of oil and put in a new filter, o-ring. Then you probably ought to consult with another tech, a trusted tech, about what you should do. My diagnosis may be wrong. Do what he says. My inclination would be to start and run the engine all the while keeping an ear, make that both ears, tuned to the engine for the first signs of any noises. As long as the engine stays quiet and shows no troubles running, I'd shut it off after say 15 minutes of running and remove the filter housing and look at the oil and the element. If scary bits are there, well, there are you. If no scary bits are in the oil or element, replace the filter, install the housing and top up the oil. If at any time the engine becomes noisy or starts running poorly, shut off the engine ASAP. Do not attempt to start it and run it some more. The engine is sick but possibly can be saved/resurrected unless you run it more in which case it will be "toast". Expensive toast. Overly cautious? Perhaps. But I'd toss a filter or two and some oil to confirm the engine is not shedding metal due to internal troubles rather than just take the car out and have the engine let go at speed.

Macster has some great advice. Don't jump to conclusions here. There are many things that could be wrong, or nothing could be wrong. Numerous things you have related that the mechanic told you definitely don't sound right. For example, if this is the first time this oil pan has been taken out and inspected, and that's grand total what's in there, and it's not magnetic (ferrous), it certainly could be nothing wrong at all. Why did he take the oil pan out? Does he stand to gain in some way if you decide to do a rebuild? A bad mechanic can destroy an engine by using too much sealant when putting the pan back on (excess adhesive clogs oil pickup) so there is risk in inspecting the pan in the first place. In any case, somebody is not fully above board (I can't tell if it's the mechanic, or how you're relating the story, or both, no offense, just the facts here). I would think hard about whether to trust this mechanic for what could be a $25k gamble. As Macster said, get dirty: feel what the oil in the filter and bottom of the housing is like. Any shiny bits? Fine glitter? What color -- silvery or gold? The one thing I would add is to put in a magnetic drain plug and check that frequently for now and regularly in the future. Knowing almost nothing further about this I would say there is a decent chance there is nothing wrong at all, but take that with a large chunk of salt.

What kills the engine after experiencing an IMSB failure is the collateral damage. Post failure the entire engine is filled with debris, the fine particles require ultrasonic cleaning and complete disassembly to ensure they don't come back to haunt you. Engines that have a bearing failure and are then retrofitted usually have a life span thats measured in minutes, or maybe hours. The record was less than 10 minutes after a Porsche dealership retrofitted an engine post failure. It tossed a piece of one of the ***** out of the crankcase when it was caught between the case and the main timing chain. In the pictures of your oil pan I spy copper… This copper is NOT from the IMS bearing! It is from one of your rod or main bearings and the engine is done with a capital D. There's no other copper in the engine other than the dermis layer of these main and rod bearings. When we see copper, we know the bearing is worn to the third layer of wear material. Continue to operate the engine while you look for other opinions will just do more collateral damage, and more than likely you'll drive it to death, costing yourself much more money in core components. Maybe you lost an IMSB or something else in the engine, and the crappy stock oil filter canister design bypassed metal laden oil to the main and rod bearings, around the filter, and created secondary damage that has now taken the heart of the engine out. Here's a sample of what you can expect… This sump plate had copper suspended in the oil, and in the filter canister. The oil from the canister is what you see dumped onto the "pig" mat. I pulled this one apart today, and its now in line for reconstruction. Luckily the owner shut it down before it tossed a rod through the block, but not soon enough to save the crankshaft, so that cost him at least an extra 1K bucks. In my experience, if I see copper, its DONE, because its seen terminal damage thats not going to get any better, and flushing won't do you any good, because the bearing surfaces have been irreversibly compromised. At best you'll have low oil pressure when the oil heats up, and you can expect a knock to start at 2,700 RPM fairly soon. Nothing good from that copper in the sump. Nothing. I see this all the time, this is the 5th time in less than 3 weeks, and the damage is so reproducible between engines that we have to take great care not to mix up the photos, because they all look exactly the same. Not to shoot your hopes in the foot, but there's no use to have someone look at the engine, and spend even more money, especially when he more than likely doesn't have the in-depth, internal experience to know the 27 modes of failure, and what each symptom is, and where to go… If anyone sees that copper and says that the engine is ok, RUN away from that shop and don't look back. Anyone who has attended, and has paid attention in my classes knows what the copper death is all about, I spend 2 hours on the subject in my 16 hour class.

Boy, I'm glad Jake isn't a doctor. "You're DONE with a capital D! There's nothing more you can do!"

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Some things need to be stated with authority, else people will cost themselves a lot more money. The current issue is a total lack of core components to resolve these issues, so we need to save the life of every crankshaft,, carrier and crankcase possible. There's nothing in the engine that has this symptom thats a positive thing. No use in beating around the bush when we know that its so well done that the meat will fall off the bone. If I were a Doc, my bedside manner would be horrible, but I'd get the damn job done. :-) That said, there's a lot more that "can be done", but it will be money thrown away based on those chunks of copper in the pic that the OP linked.

Jake if you were a physician I'm sure your bedside manner would be fine, because you understand the difference between telling someone their engine is terminal, and telling them their spouse/sibling/parent/child is terminal. Some car owners however tend to lose sight of that perspective In physicians and mechanics I value integrity, skill, experience and innovativeness above bedside manner. I've met a lot of really charming guys in both professions whom I wouldn't trust farther than I can throw a piano.

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Thank you. Lots of shops that may know this is worst case would look at those photos and never say what they thought. They'd want to get the owner on the hook for diagnostic charges to see what's wrong, even though they know it's terminal. The practice of telling an owner what's wrong beforehand is known as "driveway diagnosis" in this business and it's a cardinal sin for a shop to practice. Telling someone what's wrong up front doesn't increase the bottom line at the end of the year; instead they'll charge 3-4k to tear the engine down only to find what I have just posted. That said, we don't have time for all that non sense, and it's not how we operate. It's all up front, honest and direct. I often break news to people on the phone or via email when we see photos and they can't believe that I didn't say "just ship me the car and we'll diagnose it". Last week a guy called from Florida that had a weird squeal from the engine and low oil pressure only at idle. He sent me a video of the issue and I told him that he had an AOS failure that's effected the secondary diaphragm instead of the primary, so the engine was not smoking as normal. It lost oil pressure due to the insane manifold vacuum he saw from the AOS failure, coupled to being at sea level. He didn't believe me at first, because he said that he'd never read any of this on a forum (wow, imagine that, we don't share everything). I never told him to send me the car, though we consider Florida local in regard to shipping. Instead he did have the AOS changed locally and the problem was solved. The dealer and two other shops told him that he needed a new engine... They found pieces of "white plastic" in the oil and they believed that a chain tensioner failed, and he had low oil pressure.... NO! That white plastic was actually diaphragm material from the AOS failure! People don't know what they don't know, and most shops didn't tear into these engines over a decade ago when they should have. They just replaced the engine. I did t charge him a dime, and his 22,000.00 projected repair bill was 800 bucks. Those things make me smile more than the bottom line, and they fill our shop with referral work enough that we've never had to advertise services.

It still doesn't address why OP's mechanic pulled the oil pan when he went in for just a clutch change. Seems weird. At that point, I wouldn't even trust the pics to be from the same engine even. If I pulled the oil pan myself and saw the oil come out and saw the fragments of copper then yes, but some thing def seems fishy here...

Yup, copper is the beginning of the end. +1 for DO NOT drive or start it anymore. Mine sump plate had larger copper chunks that the pictures above. Came across them while investigating a low oil pressure issue when the engine got warm. The oil filter was full of metal but didn�t see any copper, maybe I didn�t look hard enough. Needles to say, the engine is now out, valve covers are off and in the next week, I�ll start tearing it down. Anyone knows if oversized crank and main bearings are still not available to the �general public�? Jake, do you sell them or that�s something you are not interested in at this time?

Jake is by far the expert on this among all of us who have commented. It's probably my lack of experience but I cannot see obvious (to me) evidence of likely copper in the photos. The chunks are *big* and I wonder if they are maybe aluminum covered in a film of oil. I would find it really difficult to comprehend how such large chunks could get broken off the bearings, let alone that the metal layers are very thin. Again, as said by others as well, why on earth did the mechanic pull the oil pan without your knowledge and then immediately pronounce the engine toast? Does he have something to gain by doing that? Is he paying you back for previous disagreements? What is going on here? Keep in mind you are dealing with a $25k gamble here. Get the right info. Flat bed it to a good mechanic exactly as it is.

Right, and again thanks to everyone for being helpful. I think the mechanic just genuinely isn't experienced enough with these kind of cars, not to mention looking for his cut. Last night I stopped in and he already had quotes on crate engines "from Porsche" (20k with a 10k core charge + labor of course). I just moved so my trusted mechanic is 1 1/2 - 2 hours away. My struggle is finding someone I can trust local. (not to mention my own inexperience with the 996) I'm going to comb through the forums again and see if I can get some recommendations for mechanics in the Denver area and/or make some phone calls around town. If I can't find someone local I'll take it down to Colorado Springs to my trusted mechanic. Regardless of what's wrong with it, I will not be letting this guy take care of it. Good news is from what you guys are saying I may not need a complete rebuild, and the IMS may not even be the problem. If I can get it diagnosed properly I may keep the repair cost low, and if I do need a rebuild, from what I'm seeing rebuilds are well under the 25k this mechanic is wanting to charge for a complete engine replacement. Thanks again everyone

No, I am fairly sure that you need an engine, or an in-depth repair. I don't see anything clearly indicating an IMS problem, but I'd trade an IMS failure for the failure that I suspect any day. Maybe this mechanic did attend my classes, because I preach about sump inspections so much, saying that I pull the sump on every car that I see, which I do. That said, they should have gained authorization to do this. Whats the name of the shop, or the techs? I can see if they've attended my class. I had a class in Denver earlier this year, and 40 techs were there, so there's a possibility. Thats not just you. I have M96/M97 powered Porsches here currently from 32 states, and 3 Canadian provinces. They come this far, for a reason. I just plucked a car off a dealer lot in Colorado on Friday- it arrived yesterday. My Stage 1 engine is 20,500.00, and its a big bore 3.6 with Nickies and all our products, making 20HP more than stock, with all stock, unaltered sub- systems. But, the next completion date I have is December 2015. It sounds like the quote you got was for a Porsche reman short block with the mechanic swapping your heads, ancillaries and etc over to the replacement bottom end. This is all that exists now since Porsche omitted the crate engine program in February of this year. No. The factory crankshaft lacks the proper heat treat depth to be ground even .010" under sized. This means that extensive procedures are required to treat the crankshaft after grinding, and we also alter rod bearings. I retain these for my engine program, where we have ultimate control of all the variables. We also find that 90% of the cranks that lose a journal are also cracked from the failure, which shoots them down completely.

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Just so it is clear you may not need a rebuild, but your trusted mechanic should be the one to tell you that. In the meantime my best advice would be to flat bed the car to him. Ideally you should get all the debris that tech washes out of the sump and the oil filter housing and save this and let your trusted tech look at it. This needs to be cleaned of any oil so one can see what the metal is. It is not ferrous, but as JR raises it could be bearing material. If it is the engine can be "toast", but salvageable. If the diagnosis is bad the tech can advise you the best way to go. The engine may be rebuildable -- that is just the bad things replaced, the worn things -- of which there may not be that much if any things replaced -- and then done. Whether you want to install say the IMSB upgrade of your choice can also be discussed. Or you can of course opt to have the engine redone by JR's outfit. Or if the engine is toast and not salvageable you can elect to replace the engine with a used one out of a salvage vehicle. First you have to know without any question if the engine needs any internal work at all and the extent of what work it needs and then if it is suitable to receive this work.

Jake, Do you sell the oversized bearings?

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No, we don't sell any parts. I have one distributor who wants to carry them, but I have warned them about the crankshaft mods and the risks associated with them. After hearing the facts they changed their minds, knowing that the bearings would be blamed for the failure of machinist's doing the proper work to the crankshaft. Lots of things create liabilities when being sold... I developed the bearings for my program and I think I'll keep them :-)

Well this thread has scared the hell out of me......almost don't want a 996 now! Interesting thread to say the least.

I hear Camry's are very reliable and fast...

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No, just buy a solid car with an engine specific, very detailed PPI. Being informed is the key, too many people buy these cars blindly and get bitten. The guys that know about the issues can protect themselves. Some people like the truth, but in the modern world there's few of those people remaining.

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Okay, I'll bite. I'm a long time car guy, reading this board for at least a month now and I don't see any specific checklist for an engine PPI. Do you have one or a link to one? It appears you have basically the most experience out there with these engines. Thanks! Paul

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Once upon a time I posted this for free. Someone used it and had their local shop carry out a PPI. The vehicle passed, but the engine failed in 1500 miles after purchase. Guess who got the blame? The guy that have the free checklist out to be used.... Me! Tell me what's fair about that? After that I pulled it. Today we share this in our classes, and instruct technicians further on the procedure.

Okay, thanks. I guess I will just have to buy one and keep my fingers crossed! I have been in the electric motor repair business for over 20 years now, and really know a lot about rotating equipment. I can't believe a IMS bearing that started to fail couldn't easily be picked up by regular vibration analysis and trending. In electric motors, you can see a bearing failure a mile away, at the start of degradation, long before it destroys itself. I've never seen vibration analysis on an internal combustion engine using an accelerometer, but I'm sure it's been done before. I did a search and saw a guy in the PNW did this a year or two back, he posted some vibration spectrums on a Porsche newsletter, I saved it but did not have the chance to read it. I figure if I get a 996, which I am pretty certain I am, I would look into this and sample other 996 / boxster engines to see if we could find different vibration signature amplitudes / discrete frequencies and then change the bearing out at the beginning of degradation. This would be long before metal was found in the oil filter. You seem to be on the end of this process when the bearing or other item in the engine has gone beyond degradation into failure. I'm sure this has probably been discussed before, but it sure sounds like a fun project for me.

I offer engine specific PPIs, where I do go invasive and determine exactly what the health of the engine is. Its already been done. We did it back in 2007 with the help of 2 different dealerships that saw 50+ cars per week. We supplied the equipment and they tested every car that came in the door. Within 3 months the values were so scattered that it was proven that it would be impossible to gather accurate trend data to support a "good" or "bad" IMSB. This is because of all the other rotating and reciprocating components that also created their own vibrations, and those vibrations varied depending upon age, mileage, condition of engine and tranny mounts, dual mass flywheel health and dozens of other things. Yes, because that electric motor can be isolated from other sources of vibration failure easily in most cases. If the iterations per second are higher than normal, the only thing that can be present is a worn motor. I have done it before with lots of engines. I have even used this to test the drive systems of tandem rotor helicopters. Familiar with it. I believe he gave up after he found the same thing that we found 5 years prior. You need a tooin of "good" engines with good IMSBs to sample from, then you need more cars with samples of various IMSBs undergoing the 4 stages of failure to test from, before you'd ever learn whats good or bad. With that, you'd need a way to eliminate all the other vibrations from the engine that can also vary, which isn't going to happen. Even a failing water pump could impact the vibration of the engine. Again, I did this when developing the IMS Guardian system. Vibration analysis was the second form of detection that we utilized, but the results were so scattered that you'd never be able to determine good from bad, and I have gathered the data personally. Its been discussed dozens of times on different forums. __________________

You�ve talked the vendor out of selling it to anyone else so this way no one can get it but you? You are not selling any parts and I totally understand that but, now no one can get an oversized bearing for these engines. That�s terrible! Correct me if I�m wrong but, the way it looks to me is that essentially you�ve set up a monopoly on this part by talking the vendor out of selling it to anyone else. Why would anyone blame the bearing for machining errors or lack of hardening of the reground surface/crank shaft? There are thousands of other engines, from other cars (not Porsche) with crankshafts that need nitriding after they are re ground. This service is offered to anyone and thousands of people use them all the time when they are rebuilding their engines and oversized bearings are readily available for them too. It�s nothing mystical of unusual but the lack of oversized bearings for this engine makes this process useless. By blocking the availability to these bearings probably works well for your business but it totally goes against what gearheads do. Well, at least the good news is that since Porsche started to scale down their crate engine program, demand for an oversized bearing will go up and someone eventually will start selling them to the public.

Flat6: It sounds like you have it all figured out. I can say that if I had your reply to management in the nuclear power industry (where I work), it would be rejected. They would figure out a way to isolate the vibrations. If I was in your neck of the woods and I was buying a car locally, it sounds like your experience would be great in having you do a PPI. But considering I'm not, and the car I buy probably won't be in your area, it doesn't sound like you can help me. If you want to email me your engine PPI checklist, I promise not to sue you. ;-) I guess the fun of getting a new car is learning all of its quirks and what makes it tick or in this case tick tock.

I have the standard PPI (@$300) used by MOST shops. Its a .pdf and covers most things except invasive procedures. I think I posted it before.

While a chip detector is a fine idea, it doesn't cover all the bases. What would be fantastic is a vibration detector on all the shafts and crank. It is THE primary instrument to forecast a failure in jet engines, well before the actual failure itself and the resultant shedding of material for the chip detector to see. That would be awesome.

Not at all. I approached the vendor and we paid them to make the tooling to make these. The vendor cared nothing about making them, at all. I had to commit to buy a huge number of sets. On top of that we had to carry out all the R&D to test them, and their optimum running clearances. No one else paid for that, it came out of MY pocket. I have learned the hard way to be selfish and to take care of my own, the IMS Retrofit debacle with all the band wagon clowns jumping onboard was among my lessons. Development is expensive, I've wasted 4,400.00 in less than one minute before; until YOU do that, you just can't understand. People get all pissy about things, until it's their money paying for the development, and until it's their part thats stolen by someone else and replicated. Today, if I allow something to get ripped off and copied, its my fault, before I expected people to give credit where it was due, and do the right thing. People don't. Don't bitch to me, or about me, bitch to Porsche. They are the ones who never offered them in the first place. We pioneered all the M96 developments without any help from anyone, monetarily or otherwise. Thats no small feat. Why not? **I** paid to have these made, I ddid all the test work, I set up the clearances, I developed the heat treat regimen, I made the tooling to allow for align honing of the carrier and I paid for all the parts. Please tell me why I owe anything, to anyone. I'd like to hear it. Because the modern human blames everything on anyone other than himself. Its easier to be a victim than a failure and EVERYTHING is ALWAYS the vendors fault. I'll have no part of that, not any more. If someone decides to assume the role of engine builder, they better be ready to assume all the bad, with all the good; but few are. They want to say that they built it, until it fails, then its the part's fault, or its my fault. Its never their fault. If its so easy, why hasn't someone else done it? One person has tried and failed, they built 9 engines and had 9 engine failures. They gave up. Whats unique about the M96/97 crankshaft is it's surface treatment and how it responds to heat treat. Hell, I had to pay to have a crankshaft destructively inspected as just one part of the costs of this, and I didn't mention that it cost the same to have one crankshaft heat treated as it does 112 pounds of crankshafts treated. Try that one on for size during development. Thats what they all say about everything. Nothing mystical or unique, and you say that having never built an M96 engine with your own hands. If its not mystical or unique, why do I have attendees from 4 continents traveling here in 2 weeks for my hands on engine rebuild school? Lately, all gear heads do is complain. They expect everyone to do the hard work for them, while they play the part of the keyboard warrior who is worried about his online reputation as being some wizard behind the torque wrench. Hell, most don't even know how to use one! And there will be failures and the person who sells them will be responsible for the mistakes of every person out there who didn't do their part. That won't be me. I've learned my lesson. Why do people think they are entitled to something, even when they haven't done anything to help create it? I never understand that. Hell, when I started building these engines and developing them, I was laughed at. Why would I help those people who laughed at me back then, by developing fixes to bail their asses out of trouble today? I don't play the game that way. Back then people couldn't see the forest for the trees and today they are a decade behind the leaders, and its only their fault.

Jake, I totally understand your point and I get it, business is business and that�s fine. But this battle between the big engine builders (like you) leaves the little guy (like me) with very limited options when I want to fix or rebuild my engine. It really doesn�t help a bit when I see a post where a vendor was discouraged to sell parts to others. If now is the time for others to start developing the parts that you already have then, such is life. I have no problem sharing whatever information I�ll get from my projects but then again, I don�t have a business to run either or deal with competition and the related politics, I�m only in it for the fun. I�m sure you still remember when you did all this for nothing more than fun and all this other BS didn't matter.

No, its more than business. Development isn't business. You are having to pay for the con artists and rip offs that copy products. Just like everyone that buys our products has to see the costs of the patenting processes that are required to protect them. Thats wasted money; we shouldn't have to worry about that. The problem is that the "little guys" continue to support these rip off artists by buying the knock off part, when they know it was our design that was copied. The "little guy" thats only concerned with his own wallet therefore ENABLES these rip offs to exist! If people didn't buy the ripped off part, they'd not be on the market; so in a way its all the "little guys" fault. Bet you never considered it that way, did you? Most don't, because they've not personally been ripped off after they worked to perfect something for a couple years, or more. Well, this vendor is discouraged to sell parts to others based on previous experiences at a retail level, when supplying components. I want it to be clear that the company who has made these bearings for us is not in the Porsche industry, they are also not a company that provides parts at a "little guy" level. When working with them we must develop every aspect of the component, right down to all engineering and evaluation. Again, my initiatives are for complete engines only in most cases. My commodity is engines and my specialty is development of components to make the commodity the best, and completely unlike the rest. As we move further and further into the 9a1 DFI engines, month after month we see more of them with issues that we've already developed components and fixes for. I let go of developments for older engines as we move newer and newer, and now that we have 5 years of development in the 9a1, and 4 years of modifying them for customers, I'll let go of more M96 stuff when the time comes. I'll do that as long as it does not create potential liability for me. I don't deal with others in the industry, I take no part in the politics. I do my thing, my way and I sit in the middle of no where and have a lot of fun, all day long. Wait, I still do... The dollars the facility generates is put toward development to keep us on top, and so I can one day have the worlds most bad assed hobby shop when I decide to put it all to rest. I am way too damn mean to be a competitor. When I used to race I'd go to the track with a killer mind set, and thats why I stopped long, long ago. I approach any competition with the same mind set. I have an old worn out T shirt that says "I didn't come here to lose", and its true. All that said, I have owned a Porsche every day of my life since the age of 12... I am where I am because I am an enthusiastic Porsche owner thats been blessed with an ability to think of the things well before the other guy does, then make them work. It all started with an old VW at the age of 8, then in 10 years I had 80 cars and had already been in business for 5 of those years. I was up till 4 am this morning working on a 930 engine, and it wasn't because I had to. Like I said, if you want to be pissed off, or disappointed with anyone, extend that frustration in the direction of Porsche. They are the ones who did not offer over sized bearings, and they are also the ones that made it so difficult for us to do what we have done, primarily by not releasing specifications and making us have to figure it all out ourselves. That was part of their plan.

Don't sugar coat it Jake, tell it to us straight

Quotes source post: 11817940

LOL!!!!!

I totally agree with Jake. He put in the money and the effort and he should get the rewards.This isn't a huge market, its not a toothbrush, a lot of time and energy was spent to get to where he is with no guarantee of it ever becoming a financial success. He's a smart businessman besides being overly skilled along with having the tenacity to keep going well before seeing any profit. If it wasn't for him many of the owners of these cars wouldn't even have them. I for one am just happy that someone like Jake exists, if Porsche would have done as good job with engineering as they did with marketing Jake could have just stuck with Volkswagons.

Quotes source post: 11819449

+1.

Agree with Jake also. If you are the godfather, you should have the right to go to the mattresses to protect your own. Otherwise any opportunistic rip off is going to stick his nose in the business and we (the consumer) end up getting the short end of the stick.

Let's be nice to Jake because there are some much more lucrative projects he could transfer his skills to.For example: http://mashable.com/2014/11/20/emira...rbus-overhaul/

You guys are plastic mechanics so I don't expect you to understand the frustration people like me have. Jake, Thanks for the reply.