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YOUR RESEARCH1st gear or 2nd gear
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only way
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Reported cause · Original poster
Downshifting to 2nd has proven to be the only way to avoid 1st gear on this turn in the past few weeks.
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The only time I use 1st gear is below 3mph or from a stop.
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Suggestion
This allows me to continuously check the condition of my clutch.
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Suggestion
If you want to do high performance turns, do it on the track, run an autocross, or do a car control clinic, but keep it off of the streets
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Suggestion
For the love of god stop testing your skills or lack of on the street.
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I've been struggling for awhile deciding between 1st and 2nd gear for tracking out of street turns. I think I've found my solution, and I welcome other members' experiences.
If your approach is below 15 mph, 1st gear is the only choice, and it sucks, but 1500 rpm would be lugging in 2nd gear.
If your approach is between 15 mph and 35 mph, downshift into 2nd just as you enter the turn. This accomplishes a weight shift to the front tires, which helps you turn safely without the understeer. You track out in 2nd gear.
If you're already in 2nd gear approaching the turn, just "lift" to accomplish the aforementioned weight shift. You track out in 2nd gear.
I agree - in fact it's also an issue when approaching a light that has just turned from red to green. If the cars starting to accelerate from their stopped position - often I'm unsure whether to down shift to 1st - or "lug it out" in 2nd. Due to the known issue of IMS failure, I try not to use any relatively open throttle below 3000 rpm. So when approaching the light under these conditions I either use 1st - and apply as much throttle as I like, or use 2nd and very gently accelerate until the rpm's are close to 3000.
Ive never tracked my 911 although I have lots of autox and highway exit experience but I just feel the car out, I hate downshifting into first with a passion. If you plan way ahead of the turn you can easily get away with not shifting into first...the momentum of the car if done right should give you plenty of speed throughout the turn to avoid letting rpms drop too low in second
I agree with pub, downshifting into first is just painful. A short amount of time lugging in second couldn't really hurt the car could it? I mean after all it's a Porsche
I don't mean idling around the neighborhood under 3K, but just the short time to get with the flow of traffic. (Disclaimer, I could be totally wrong though)
jim
The only time I use 1st gear is below 3mph or from a stop. If I feel I would lug the engine in 2nd then I would rather ride the clutch for a couple of seconds as the alternative. I do actually change down from 3rd to 2nd when turning at right angle to the road I am leaving. I will use 3rd as high as 50mph in preference to 4th to prevent a drop in oil pressure. I like to keep the revs at 2500 or as near as dammit is to swearing at all times all though that is not always possible. I drive watching closely my revs and oil pressure and work around those 2 gauges. I would rather use my gears than my brakes in a lot of situations.
I would not recommend shifting into 1st gear at 15mph, you'll lose as much time shifting down then back up as you would if you just stayed in 2nd. Not to mention the massive wear increase on the trans, which is pretty expensive.
If I have a course with a tight low speed turn, you can unweight the rear and get on the throttle hard while the rear is light to get the inside tire to spin up. You'll get more RPM to keep from bogging driving out of it. It's hard on the tires, but for me much faster than adding 2 shifts and having to rev match into 1st, etc.
Unsolicited "goody two-shoes" answer: I don't generally drive aggressively enough on the street to need to worry about how to maximize blasting out of each corner - I've only spun a car once on the street - about 30 years ago, Good God - and I'm in no hurry to repeat it.
Stuffing the car into first is hard on the transmission unless you heel-toe to blip the throttle during braking. If you heel-toe and get your blip right, there shouldn't be a weight transfer during the corner - your braking is already done entering the corner, and the setup is getting through the corner and starting to lay power down on the track out. If you're using engine braking to effect a weight shift, in my opinion you're doing it wrong.
"Lifting into a corner" is also called "coasting" - real men don't coast.
Hold on. Forget the street vs. track question for a minute. Yes, there's always a racing line and weight shift, etc. but, at 15mph on a street, are any of you
really
worried about spinning out on dry pavement? I feel like we're considering the benefits of a rear wing spoiler at 15mph.
-Eric
Hold on a second Batman.
Street driving is not racing
You are "tracking out" in a turn in street driving? Trying to do a high performance turn on the street at 15 mph?
Stay the hell out of my neighborhood
As Pete said, go do an Autocross or HPDE event and keep the streets safe
+1
accelerating gently in 2nd gear at 1500rpm is not lugging anything. Its completely normal for street driving, which it appears is what we are discussing.
No way, Hurdi says that RPM needs to be at 2,500RPM and oil at least 2.5 bars at all times (presumably in order to prevent damage to the component that never fails). This requires dumping the clutch in reverse when backing out of the garage, sliding around through a Jimmy Rockford, and grabbing first* and smoking down the street like Marty McFly on speed.
*Note that you will need to speed shift - leaving the throttle completely depressed while making the R-1 shift - to keep the oil pressure acceptably high.
This is the only method proven to prevent damage to your car.
In fairness to Hurdi, it's not ALWAYS f****g terrible advice. Say you're a long-haul trucker with a double-load of steel pipe headed down a steep grade and your brakes cook off and there's no runaway ramp...and there's a sharp turn at the end of the grade after which is a thousand-foot drop into the crater of an active volcano. In this case, jake brake the sh*t out of that thing.
Otherwise, I'ma side with DTM.
Here are some responses to various questions in some random order.
Yes
No
It�s OK, won�t damage anything.
Don�t ever do it that way. Very hard on the [insert car part here].
Get stickier street tires.
Lift-off oversteer.
If in doubt; never lift.
More downforce!
�Tracking out� of a late apex on the street is good. It generally gives you the most visibility around the turn so you can see any anomalies before they hit you.
Get good at heel-toe. It will change the way you drive and save your [insert car part here].
Stop unbalancing the car. The car don�t like that.
A little instructional video for you is worth ten thousand words. Enjoy. BTW, I believe that's Hurdi in the blue chase car backing out of the Safeway using his patented 2,500 rpm+ method.
Rockford Car Chase: 20 - YouTube
A little instructional video for you is worth ten thousand words. Enjoy. BTW, I believe that's Hurdi in the blue chase car backing out of the Safeway using his patented 2,500 rpm+ method.
Wow -- the memories. Between the tire squeal-fest and that Chevelle rocking back and forth like a boat at sea just reversing out of the parking spot.... Small wonder that imports moved in and commandeered the car market here.
This
I may not be a professional driver but a large margin, but when I'm turning I leave it in second gear. It's never "lugged along." I was taught that 1st is meant soley for acceleration and to put it in second gear while turning with a transmission with more than 4 gears.
Tonight's track out:
Stayed in 2nd gear on the approach, rather than my usual coast-then-downshift-to-2nd approach. Big mistake.
There was no grip in the front wheels, my car went too wide, and it almost sputtered on the trackout. The reason is that speed dropped to 22 mph (tight turn), which is around 1500 rpm I think the chart says.
Trail brake on turn in, when you feel the outside tires are loaded up open the throttle to get some rotation. Depending on your course setup I'll try for a slightly early apex depending on how much rotation I need, front will come wide a bit as the rear steps out and you counter steer to correct.
If your front is going wide at that speed, I hope the surface is ****, your tires are awful, something is worn or broken, or you're upsetting the chassis?
In order to heel-toe and prevent lugging, weight transfer from the inner-outer wheels should be concentrated on the outer-inner races, ensuring proper piston skirt clearances and optimizing spark and air/fuel ratios. Downshifting from 6th to first should only be done at the last moment to ensure maximum loading of the load-bearing walls, and deck nails should be utilized to verify that body roll is minimized throughout the process of homogenization. Trail breaking can also be done if one finds that the trail has been overgrown. Thus, the inside rear wheel and the outside front wheel will synchronize and under/oversteer will be cancelled out by the dual-mass flywheel. And limited-slip differentials in order to stoichiometric with the least amount of negative camber.
Why you don't know **** from Shinola, do you boy? You cannot rely on DECK NAILS to minimize body roll. DECK NAILS? Don't talk to me about DECK NAILS. The tensile strength that is gonna be REQUIRED with those kinds of torque loads is gonna call for lag bolts.
This thread is about 996 driving techniques. It's not about street racing. Those who don't want to talk about 996 driving techniques kindly stay the f*ck out.
Sounds legit. Maybe go practice aggressive driving techniques on a track. Or an autocross course.
Those who want to drive like an asshat on public streets kindly stay the f*ck out.
did someone **** in your Wheaties?
you started this thread referring to STREET driving and talking about tracking out and high performance turns
Get you shyt together before you get your panties in a twist because people call you out for being a ........
The words "approach", "trackout", etc. are better than any wordy descriptions I could come up with, which would probably get lost in translation anyway. Everybody knows what trackout means, or can look it up.
I did not imply driving like an as*hat. This should clear up those people who inferred such.
I guess fundamentally I'm confused by the "if the approach is less than 35MPH, downshift to second..."
If the approach is less than 60-65, why aren't you already in second? At any given time, the car should be prepared to make optimal power if you press down on the skinny pedal. If you're in any gear above second at 15-35 MPH, you are cruising, so I'm not really understanding where the transition between putting down the boulevard at 30MPH and flying t*ts-out around every corner happens.
I think some of you folks need to go to an autocross event and spend some time watching the cars that make 100-200HP (or less), like the 914-4's and the 912's. Some of those drivers are amazing at conserving momentum through turns, and they handily beat the hell out of a lot of 300-400HP cars where the driver hauls *** to every corner, burns $3 worth of tire and brakes, finally corrects from the slide/spin they're invariably in, and spools up the turbo for the next 250 feet of straight.
As an aside, the thread is pretty much "how do I apply racing/performance driving techniques to my daily commute;" while you may not appreciate the "why are you doing this on the street," it's a valid question. If you are doing ANYTHING that involves threshold braking, limits of adhesion, yada yada, you are leaving no margin for error if, say, a jogger steps off the sidewalk into the street or anything else unexpected happens. You do not have to be going 100MPH to get cited/arrested for reckless driving.
I get the whole safe pedestrian thing, but I bought the N/A version Porsche over the turbo so I could have more fun around the speed limits... which I do..
And yes I get my *** end out almost everytime my Porsche leaves my garage. Granted my office is in an industrial park and I have county roads in every which direction as well... its not like I do it on my cities main corridors or in neighborhoods.
and always 2nd gear
Yes, I will do autocross, because your point above really is the topic of this thread, how to safely sustain momentum through turns, ie. above 25 mph (I think it is), because under that is lugging in my car.
And I will continue to use other resources (like here) to learn, because lecture then lab.
How does one go about driving like a porcupine? Input appreciated.
Also, do hedgehogs drive like porcupines, and is there any meaningful distinction between the two?
Surprising result today on one of my test turns. This turn is a 35 mph street turning onto a 25 mph street, slightly downhill on both, tight turn with raised curbs.
Downshifting to 2nd has proven to be the only way to avoid 1st gear on this turn in the past few weeks. 21 mph is the fastest I've been able to take this turn, but it still feels luggy on the trackout, so I'm trying for better.
Great conditions today, zero traffic, great visibility, 75 degrees ambient, windows down, tires hot. Downshift to 2nd as always, 26 mph this time (instead of my usual 21), but tires giving insufficient grip and higher friction noises than before.
Conclusion: 26 mph is too fast for this turn, at least today. I'm going to chalk it up to all season tires (Conti DWS 5 months old, 2k miles on them).
Edit: will be attending the next autocross as travel permits.
Try adding a set of coil overs, dropping it an inch, and going with r-compound tires. 26 should be a breeze. If it's still getting loose, try upgrading the sway bars and you should be good. Good luck, let us know how it goes.
Busy professional required to move a lot, and lack of written resources from PAG re: driving techniques.
Edit: But why ask why? Is it so shameful to discuss driving? "What's it worth" and "how cheap can I go" threads get old after awhile.
Take it to the track. If you can afford a nice 996, you can afford a weekend DE with PCA or one of the many other organizations that put on DE's. Even an autocross will give you the experience you seem to be seeking. Public streets are simply not the place for this kind of behavior.
Your driving techniques deserve harassing!
What the hell is wrong with you?
You have admitted you are driving like a dangerous asshat trying to do high performance turns on the street and even though virtually everyone has said that's a dumbass move, you insist it is Ok?
You post a thread in a public forum and then give people crap about polluting your precious thread with comments that tell you how much of an asshat you are acting like. What did you expect? People praising you for driving in an unsafe manner?
Maybe you should post the thread in the racing forum. I bet I know what the response would be.......
If you want to do high performance turns, do it on the track, run an autocross, or do a car control clinic, but keep it off of the streets
STAY THE HECK OUT OF MY NEIGHBORHOOD!!!
As already stated many times by a few others: doing "test turns" or practicing track moves have no place in the street, specially for someone like you who has openly admitted to not having formal instruction by pros.
I am hoping you make sure the street is empty and nobody else is around when you do "trackouts" so nobody else is put at risk except you and your car.
P.S. What did you expect from posting in an open forum asking for opinions?
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