2004 C4S Coupe, less than 10k miles

I am finally ready to pull the trigger on a 911 (or to be exact, the much-unloved black sheep 996). I can afford a 997 but I prefer the 996. So! with that part out of the way here we go: The car in question is at a local Porsche dealership. It's a 2004 C4S Coupe, manual transmission car with what seems to me to be suspiciously low miles - just below 10,000. The car has had two out of state owners with records that indicate regular Porsche dealer service. From what I'v read here and elsewhere, more miles on these cars is usually a good thing. It's the rarely driven cars that can pose problems. Would anyone else be hesitant from this stand point? The car otherwise appears absolutely flawless. I'm going to drive the car on Saturday and have scheduled a PPI for Saturday afternoon. Are there known issues particular to the 4S? IMS bearing failures exist with this version as well I assume? Any advice on what to look for would be greatly appreciated.

With so low of miles, the IMS is still 99% fresh and still packed with grease. Oil change, tranny, front diff and brake fluid flush is all I would do on it.

Install the IMS Solution and be done with it.

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forget the bandaid IMS solution - grind the dealer down and include an IMS replacement in your deal - no brainer

Whatever floats your boat, but I'd rather have a certified installer do a permanent IMS fix (i.e. The Solution) than have some random dealer mechanic install the ceramic bearing, which is still considered a wear item.

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What happens if the center oiling tube gets blocked on that fix? IMS issue is blown way out of proportion. The car has 10k on it. Its a brand spanking new bearing sitting there.

It's good that the car has service records. One question that comes to mind is: Was the car properly serviced, following the recommended service intervals? There's a mileage recommendation and a time recommendation. The car should have had an oil change every 12 months, regardless of mileage. Brake fluid should have been changed, etc. If it has not been serviced according to the recommended intervals, then this may be a negotiating point for you. I agree with the comments about negotiating something to address the IMSB, either an LN Engineering ceramic bearing or the Solution.

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There is another thread here with a 2004 C4S with 13k that was towed to dealer with serious issues. I would never assume IMS is OK just because it has very few miles. In fact that would cause me more concern than one with 100k.

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There is a bit of a risk with a low miles car. Certainly there is an attraction. First low miles. Like new. Second the price. My 2003 Turbo which I bought in 2009 with just 10K miles cost me less than half what it cost its first owner new. The risks from low miles are this. One is the car being still basically new -- based on miles driven -- means that a new car problem could surface. However, without the new car warranty you would be on the hook to pay to have this addressed. Second is that because of the low miles the car could develop maybe has developed problems arising from the lack of use. These are generally related to seals drying out and shrinking and leaking. This is not the end of the world but the expense can be a bit of a shock. My experience? Well, with the aforementioned 2003 Turbo which came with a CPO warranty a number of "new car" problems cropped up. Leaking clutch accumulator, leaking clutch slave cylinder to name a couple. Other things went wrong, too, though they appear to have been not the usual Turbo new car problems. Things like the shifter broke. An idler roller bearing got noisy. A radiator fan motor shaft snapped. A leaking selector shaft seal in the transmission resulted in a new transmission being fitted. All taken care of under warranty, thank goodness. Ok, after 2 years (and after me driving the car nearly another 50K miles) the warranty expired. Thought I was in the clear. I was wrong. High pressure valve in the power steering system started whistling. New power steering tank because the valve is not available separately. Spoiler hydraulics starting leaking. New spoiler hydraulic system. RMS leaked. New RMS. Front diff axle flange seals leaked. New seals. Another set of idler/tensioner roller bearings. Water pump (at 120K miles). Radiators (all 3) leaked (at 130K miles). Even the frickin rear view mirror leaked (the fluid that provides the autodimming feature spread out and formed a blot in the mirror). While it is impossible to know for sure, I attribute every leak to the fact the car was low miles -- having covered on average just 1666 miles per year during its first 6 years of ownership. If you decide on the car, and I'm not saying you should or shouldn't, you should at least be aware that problems arising from its low miles could arise and be prepared to deal with them, not be surprised by their appearance, though possibly being surprised, or relieved at any rate if no problems make an appearance, is ok. All you can do is subject the car to a thorough road test. Spend time in the car first as a passenger then as a driver. The car wants to be driven as you intend to use it. Ideally the engine wants to be run nearly an hour, though not all this time need the car be driven. Afterwards then if you have found no reason to reject the car have it inspected. It needs to be in the air so a close inspection can be made for any leak sign. There is the RMS, the water pump, all the transmission seals, rear and front diff seals, radiators, and so on. Essentially every gasket, seal, o-ring, water hose fitting, hydraulic line fitting, connection, wants to be carefully checked for any leak sign. If any found the car could still be ok to buy but you have to know what the leak means in terms of cost to put right and adjust your offer price accordingly.

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^ This. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...he-dealer.html On that level of a car, spend the $$ and get the IMSB issue addressed now. If it was a $15,000 car with 80,000 miles, I'd say just wait til the next clutch change and swap the bearing then. But, the car you are describing checks all of the boxes for elevated risk for IMSB failure. I assume you are going to drop around $35,000 to buy that car. Either work it into the deal or spend the $$ to address the issue. Once addressed, you no longer need to worry about it. Money well spent. BTW, let's see some pics of this car - pics or it never happened! Oh, and welcome to Rennlist! Once you've gotten the car bought, do a proper introductory thread.

Opinions are split on low-mile cars. Some people claim that the low-mile ones are the ones you should worry about; I side with the crowd that prefers low mileage over high mileage, everything else being equal. Sounds like you have an understanding of the common 996 issues - if the car checks out, buy it, do whatever service you feel is necessary to make you comfortable driving it, and then spend as much time as possible correcting that issue with the odometer. You (or your mechanic) should be able to tell the difference between a car that was well-maintained but driven sparingly vs. a car that was unused and unmaintained for the last decade...

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LOL It's your car and your cash. Do whatever ya want bud. Don't solicit for opinions if you don't want them. It will save us all time.

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I'm not gonna say to get IXX done or not, BUT if you are going to do it and considering this is a very low mileage and somewhat rare C4S cab model, I would say to do a complete job. This means get an invasive ppi done at a certified installer, followed by prequalification if PPI passes, then the IMS Solution. This way you remove most of the risks involved. Remember, it's no longer just about IXX if you're already on that train.

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I can't see a dealer doing a IMS replacement with such low miles. If OP does not buy someone else will. It's only the few here who would even be concerned with the IMS. Average buyer sees Porsche and nothing else. If you like the car buy it. In any other car besides the 996 low mileage is a big plus. For whatever reasons people try justifying that high mileage cars are better. This is essentially a brand new car that has sat awhile. What are they asking?

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First of all, thanks everyone for your considered replies. The car is listed at $41,000 - which I'm not too impressed with. Yes, the car appears pristine in the pictures, but even if the car is as tight as a drum, there are newer 911's out there for the same amount of money (though, like I said, I'm partial to the '04's, preferably an Anniversary Edition). This particular 996 has the factory installed aero body kit, which I like. But it is also very... yellow . Everywhere. Inside and out. Factory-built with the requisite option codes and everything. So while I'm going to reserve judgement on the overall color scheme until I see it in person, I feel that the $41k, even from a Porsche dealer, leaves a bit of negotiating room for problem areas that are sure to exist with a 14 year old car. Bottom line is I want a 911 that I can drive everyday. I don't care about accumulating "excessive" miles. I don't intend to Cars-n-Coffee the car (not that there's anything wrong with that). I might even take my car to a PCA HPDE one day. Or two! I love Porsches and I feel like they are best appreciated when near the limit. Basically, the car I buy will be driven like I stole it. Not abused but very well used. So this C4S may not be The One, but I'm seriously on the hunt now and I do enjoy it. Thanks for the tips and advice!

That's definitely 996tt money.

for 40k, id be looking at 997

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I agree, but a well used one not in the shape a 10k has would be in.

I am not categorically opposed to a 997 or a twin turbo car (although it seems the routine maintenance on a tt would approach Ferrari money. Not going there). I have read the thread about the C4S having to be towed to the dealer becasue of a failed IMS bearing and the story is a nightmare. Also, there is no possible way I would pay $41,000 for the C4S, even with that few miles. I'm looking at it as a starting point for negotiations to make things mechanically right. By way of that statement, can someone please elaborate on the IMS bearing issue. I've been reading rennlist for many years, but never having owned a 911, this potentially catastrophic engine wrecker is a bit of a mystery, and quite frankly, nearly enough to put me off the marque completely if the problem is that pervasive. I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle, so can someone take a moment to clarify my understanding (or more probably, lack-there-of) of this issue? Here's what I've gathered: The IMS bearing failure is not limited to the 996 cars but can effect the 997 series as well. However, at some point in the 997 run, the bearings could not be replaced without taking the engine completely apart, unlike the 996 which apparently is not that involved. T/F? The IMS bearing in a 996 is considered a normal maintenance item and should be replaced whenever the clutch is. The work and bearing itself are not hugely expensive at this point because the clutch is the main reason the engine and transmission are apart. T/F? There are at least two after-market replacement IMS bearings, one being ceramic. It is not clear to me if these after-market parts have better longevity than the factory part. If replacing an OEM IMS bearing with one of these after-market bearings, does that mean the IMS bearing bug-a-boo can be forgotten about "for good" or is it still considered a normal wear and tear item that will just need replacing less often? T/F? And what is the average life expectancy of one of these bearings anyway; 30,000, 60,000, 120,000 miles - assuming the owner has serviced the car and changed the oil as directed by the service schedule? At some point during the 996 model run Porsche went from a two bearing setup to a single IMS bearing design. This new design did nothing to address the IMS failure rate. T/F? The 1999-2001 996 cars should be completely avoided because of the high failure rate of the bearing (was there a class-action lawsuit because of this? Can't remember exactly). Also the 2005 (996.2?) car falls into this category T/F? I'm sorry for the length of this post but I have a lot of questions and it's obvious that the number of people on this forum with Porsche-specific, real world experience is second to none so I'm hoping the collective brain trust here can help set me straight! Thanks in advance.

Routine maint close to Ferrari money....Not even close. For 41k start looking at turbos a c4s is just a turbo lite.

So far in my 996TT experience (6 months and 4,000 miles), maintenance has been limited to airing up the tires. They had deflated all the way down to about 27 psi on all 4 tires over the winter. The air pump was free at my gas station, but it did probably take me 5 minutes to get them aired back up. I will be due for an oil change in about 600 miles, so there's that. I paid $35,500 for my car, bought the day after Labor Day 2015. 2002 996TT X50 with 47,000 miles. Basically every option offered (I have the window sticker - $141,960), plus the original owner did about $40,000 worth of mods right after he bought it. So, the price point you are shopping is well within 996TT territory. That being said, right now is the worst time of the year to buy. I sold my '99 C4 coupe last year at exactly this time. It was sitting in the parking lot of my office (which also houses the Kansas City Automotive Museum). A guy saw it and wanted it. I didn't have it up for sale. Point is, now is the time of the year that people have car buying fever. My strategy was to sell at that time of the year, then wait until after Labor Day to buy, when prices drop. So, I spent all spring and summer 2015 hawking the market. I got to know exactly what the market was, down to knowing specifically which cars were on the market. Most of the higher priced 996TTs you see on the market will still be for sale after Labor Day - they just don't sell at those higher prices. When something new came on the market, I knew it immediately. I had automatic daily search updates that I would check every morning. When my car came on the market, I was in the process of trying to buy a different car. But, when I saw this car, I thought at first it was too good to be true. It was exactly what I wanted - actually better than what I wanted. The price was great, but still a little above my wife-established maximum. But, I called the seller within a couple of hours of it being posted on ebay. I spent about 3 hours doing some due diligence (pulling Carfax, speaking with mechanic, reviewing seller's records, researched seller himself), then I called him back and made an offer along with offering a $1,000 non-refundable deposit. We agreed on a price and I wired him the deposit immediately. Deal was basically done within 7 hours of him having it listed. Moral of the story - you need to know the market, be patient but also be ready to pull the trigger when the right car comes along. As I mentioned, I was in the process of buying another car that I found and really would have enjoyed. Here's the one I bought at $35,500 ($38,000 asking price): Here's the one I was trying to buy at $30,000 ($32,000 asking price):

OP, not sure if you missed this STICKY about the IMS (most of your questions should be answered). SEARCH will find the rest https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...his-first.html

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Very well done.

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I'm new to porsches, but I've been reading about the IMS preparing to buy a 996. So I think I can help with some of your questions. True. The 996 only needs the transmission removed, the engine is left intact. True, but the OEM bearing is at risk of failing at any time and the less the car is driven the more likely it will fail. The ceramic bearings fix the problem, but also are considered wear items. LN Engineering recommends replacing them every 75k miles or 6 years. The "IMS Solution" is intended to be a permanent fix. The OEM bearing should be replaced with a fix ASAP. It is OK to wait for a clutch job on high mileage car, but it is a risk until it is replaced with an aftermarket fix. See above for the life of the LN bearing. True. If anything, it made it worse. The design in the 997 seems to be better, though still a single bearing. False. I think the lawsuit was for the 2002-2005 single bearing cars, the double bearing tends to be somewhat better.

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I can't speak to anything really about the rest of the car, except the color. History has shown(and continues to show) that the more eclectic the color, the better the long term value. Black, silver, gray are everywhere. There will never be a shortage of black, silver, gray 911s but the more rare the color the more collectible it becomes. As an example from other marquee the prunga metallic Ferrari is the outlier of the breed but the value of them is higher than the more prevalent rosso corso. The Plum Crazy Dodge's from the 70s, etc. If you don't like yellow, well that's something different altogether, but for valuation the alternate colors will pay off eventually. YMMV, closed course pro driver, contents have settled and may cause **** leakage.

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See my thread which is being commented on now in this forum. I have a confirmed IMS bearing failure with only 13K on my car. So, from my perspective, the OP is not safe.

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I paid $44K for my 2005 CS4 with just 6.5K miles 1.5 years ago. I did negotiate with the dealer who actually wanted more. I got him down a little, but not much. These cars are pretty rare. Mine was, and still is, except for the blown IMS bearing, in pristine condition. The dealer did go through the car, replace the fluids, and the tires. I don't think you are going to find one at a dealer for much less than what they are asking. My advice....get the extended warranty.

I have had a good experience converting a low mileage garage queen MK1 996 to a daily driver, the car has been flawless so far ( only 2 years and 20k miles) - no comment about the purchase price, but would do the pro active IMS upgrade or solution ASAP if it were me

All good advice. Just finished wading through the IMS Bearing sticky (that everyone must read�) Questions have been answered. Thanks.

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You got ripped, Sorry but this is not the norm. IMS never was as issue when these car were new. You likely had a engine that had to much play off the start and due to low mileage was never found out.

the only right thing to do is have dealer replace the IMS - grind on those bastar_s and make it happen send them a copy of Rectorbills thread if you can't persuade them.

Brief update: I finally bought my first 911: 2008 997 C4S, 6 spd manual, 49,000 miles, three local owners. Guards Red with Tan interior and black accents (factory optioned). It has the original owner's manual; 2 keys; and a stack of Porsche dealer receipts for all repairs. I bought the car from a Porsche dealer here in town that did most of the repair and maintenance work. Before the car was sold, the dealership put on new tires, new rear brakes, flushed the brakes, and brought all scheduled maintenance up to date. I use my C4S as a daily driver and absolutely love it! Had to kiss a lot of frogs to find this car but the time and effort (and PPIs) were worth it. Thanks for all of the advice. I'll make a "proper" introduction on the 997 forum soon.

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congrats. P.S. Do not be surprised if you will find yourself spending more time in the 996 forum.

Fantastic car! Congrats. A stunner.