Track Comparison - 996/987

So I traded in my 2004 C2 (plus some cash) for a 987.2 base Cayman. Now that I've been to VIR with both cars, I thought it may be interesting to do a performance comparison, just for fun. First, the cars: 2004 C2 3.6L, 325hp ROW M030 suspension Michelin PS2s Girodisc brakes, Pagid yellows 2010 Cayman 2.9L, 265hp Bilstein PSS9 suspension Yokohama AD08s Girodisc brakes, Cobalt XR3s Experience at VIR: At the end of the front straight, the 996 is 10mph faster. The extra power, while I never noticed it from the driver's seat (and in daily driving, the Cayman actually feels "quicker"), makes a big difference. Braking feels the same across both cars (very similar brake setups). Going into the Lower Esses (Turn 5), the Cayman is about 7mph faster. Entering the Upper Esses Turn 7), the Cayman is about 10mph faster. The 996 could probably/definitely enter at the same speed (around 110mph for me), but I think you have to get it "just right", where with the Cayman I immediately felt comfortable carrying more speed. On my best Cayman lap, I got held up by a C4 Corvette (why is it always a Corvette?) from T9 through Oak Tree (RIP), which probably cost me about 4 seconds, and some top speed on the back straight. That being said, once again, the power of the 996 proved itself, maxing out 10mph faster than the Cayman at the top of that long uphill climb. Here's the craziest thing though - coming through the Hog Pen (turn 17), I was 17MPH faster in the Cayman!. Now, I'm not sure what I was up to, there's no reason the difference should be that big, but I felt pretty comfortable pushing the Cayman through the turns. My guess is that the Yokos are better than the PS2s (let's say that's 2 seconds per lap), and the PSS9s are no doubt better than the ROW M030s (let's say 3 seconds per lap). Overall, I lapped VIR 3 seconds faster in the Cayman than in the 996. Now, this is extremely unscientific, as I'm not even sure that was my fastest ever 996 lap (but it was clean), and the 996 lap was before the recent re-pave. With the same tires, same suspension, same driver, same surface, I bet the two cars are an even match. Very different experiences though!

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Great write up. What a fun experiment. As for the 17 mph difference, I think you answered your own question!

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A couple of things stood out on why you turned quicker times in the Cayman: Having done all configurations of VIR several times (in competition, albeit many moons ago), it certainly helps to have an "easier" car to drive in certain sections to push the car. I used to love it being in sync with the car, dancing, going uphill on the esses... And agreed...the AD08s are waaaay better than the PS2s.

I have a 2014 Cayman S / PDK that I used to track bone stock, and a '99 996 that is lightly modified (some suspension and aero / stock motor). The Cayman makes considerably more raw power, but it is, and feels (considerably) heavier. The Cayman is so neutral, it's really easy to drive fast right away...up to a point - at the limit, it's got a LOT of understeer with VERY limited camber in stock config. That said - I set 3 track records in POC for my (stock) class. The 996 took me some time to learn, but when I did - I can go about a second or two faster per lap. For top speed, I can dive into turn one at Auto Club Speedway around 150 - 155 in the Cayman, around 140 - 145 in the 996 - but my 996 lap times will be a second or two faster. The 996 FEELS much lighter and tossable - I'm really comfortable in that car now - more than the Cayman, actually... That's NT-01's on both cars

your write-up shows why the car with the better balance is easier, more confidence inspiring to drive. This is the reason that Caymans, in various guises are taking over the tracks these days........ Nonetheless, I am still a 911 guy. GL and enjoy both....ur a lucky guy!

Nice comparison. I actually started my track addiction at VIR driving my 2004 996 Turbo Cab in 2012. I knew I wanted more so I picked up a dedicated track 2000 996 c2 a couple of years ago. Fixed up the track car and it is an absolute blast to drive on the track. So much that I prefer it over the Turbo. Comfort and feel are better in the C2 so I drive it faster.

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I'd say that I learned to drive in the 996, but I never really learned to drive the 996, if that makes any sense. I rarely got to the point where that car felt light on it's feet in corners. I definitely needed firmer springs, etc to keep the body in line. For example, I eventually could make good speed up through the esses at WGI, but the entry had to be EXACTLY right, otherwise the car would start rolling/corkscrewing around. On a related note, the 996 taught me a great lesson about how adding throttle can get you out of many awkward situations. Finally, I will say that the much-maligned M96 (I am VERY aware of the various MOFs) is, in my opinion, an absolute masterpiece to drive. I love the power delivery (with the gen 2 variocam step up), the noise (of course, mine had Fabspeed mufflers, but still), and the general character of that thing is such a blast. The 9A1, while objectively better in many areas, just doesn't have as much personality.

I think the main difference for the speed differences in favour for the Cayman in the curves is the Michelin PS2 vs. Yokohama AD08. The last one grips much better. More control because of the much stiffer design of the Ad08.

I had a 981 Base Boxster - lease ended and I recently sold it back to dealer........ and replaced it with the C4S. I tracked the 981 a few times per year - have not done a track day with the C4S yet....... can't wait to run this experiment on my own!

This thread is going to get googled for years as prices drop. Thanks for posting!

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In case anyone was looking, 2009+ caymans are about $25k for a cheap base car with 70k miles, to $41k for an S with 30k miles I've been keeping an eye on them for months, prices have held steady and maybe even gone up going into winter, wtf? New 4-banger turbo release must be propping up old 987.2 values

a cayman with pss9s and a 996 on grocery getter suspension mo30s is hardly a fair comparison .

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Actually the M030 suspension is an absolute hoot with the right tires (see video below). I'm guessing the biggest differences were the tires and the 996 has a higher learning curve on the track than the Cayman. But it's also more rewarding IMO. You Tube

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Gotta agree - the M030 matched with Yokohama AD08R's make a great combination for the track. On the street though the M030 is really quite rough (and I live in a place with really good roads).

The m030 on the track will be outclassed by even a basic coilover set up. You can go into corners much harder , carring higher speed and get out flatter with much less roll allowing you to get on the throttle earlier . Anyone who has driven both setups back to back on the same track will tell you the same thing .

a major factor is confidence , on a well set up coilover car , the planted feeling instills much more confidence and you can be aggressive and smooth. you don't get that pogo MO30 feeling with the more linear dampening.

But for a novice to intermediate driver, the M030 is forgiving enough that it allows you to test your grip and slip a lot more on a good set of tires than coilovers will. Make no mistake, I'm in the process of upgrading from Moton 2way to JRZ 3-way on my track car, so I'm not diminishing the value of a good set of coilovers at all. But for a combo DD/track car, I liked the M030 setup a whole lot better than I thought I would.

not sure I agree , better suspension is going to give you more grip and confidence even a rookie will notice this , but in this case we are talking about ultimate track times. and if the 996 was on pss9s and the cayman was on m030s , the inherent mid engine advantage would be a lot less noticeable. grip and slip on m030s might feel like more fun but its not going to get you around the circuit faster , the opposite actually.

The OP talked about confidence being a factor. Set your coilovers to 90% soft compression. Drive half a session near the limit. Pull in, switch to 90% stiff compression, drive the rest of the session near the limit. Your lap times should improve by 1-1.5s faster on a 2 mile track with the stiffer compression but it will require more precision to achieve. The fact that you soften compression to increase "grip" is what lends itself to being more forgiving and confidence inspiring. Because there are several arguable points introduced above, if you deem the conversion worthy of continuing, it may be worth replying in a new thread to prevent derailment.

What's an internet thread without some derailment? One thing that I think is relevant - both the cars in my comparison were street cars. As in, driving to the train station and the grocery store. They had to get me home at the end of the track weekend. My first kid came home from the hospital in the back of the 996 (I lived in NY and it was my only car...) To get to the point, I would bet that my old 996 (esp with the Star Spec 2s it wore later in life) could go just as fast, or faster, than my current 987. But the things that make driving a 911 so rewarding - the oversteer/understeer management (often in the same corner), the occasionally counterintuitive inputs (when in doubt, add power!) - required more commitment than I guess I was willing to give in the pursuit of ultimate lap times. This must be why I keep looking for 944s and trailers...

Great post! Be sure to post pictures of the 944 track rat when you get it!

Great writeup and fun experiment! Once thing I learned very quickly some time ago is that if the tires aren't the same you can pretty much throw an even comparison out the window haha. I recently hit NYST and had a stripped but stock E36 M3 on RE71Rs lap within 2 seconds of me on pretty bald Michelin Super Sports. Made me realize how much potential was on the table with good rubber. The perfect "street tire" is now top priority for me next season, and those RE71Rs are likely top on the list from all the great feedback I been hearing/seeing.

The re-71 look awesome. But I think in the long run, a set of Nt01 on trashed out track tires and your MPSS for street would be a better investment. As quick as the RE-71 will wear, financially it should be a wash after a couple of years. This way you end up with a better track tire and a better daily tire. Just my unsolicited 2cents though.

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I thought so too on the NT01, but I don't think they are that much better than the NT01 to be honest. Just read a nice article about a comparison between the two as well, which I though was quite intriguing. http://www.prima-racing.com/bridgest...king-part-two/ I'm good running the RE71s for a season or two, as in the next year or two the end goal is a set of slicks on separate wheels once I get a trailer to transport. And like you said...Super Sports for street.

Great article. I didn't realize the RE-71s were so fast. That's pretty cool. Although this is where it's at for me: “The Nt01 is loose comparatively. It doesn’t require as much steering angle and the car can break loose easier in mid corner, however it only turns to a nice, smooth slide." But once you try slicks you are ruined forever. The pirelli DH through usedracingtires.com are the ticket IMO. They are still crazy expensive ($600 shipped) for 20 heat cycles but it's worth it.

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The majority of everyone at the HPDE events, AutoX, and the AER races I attended this year were running the RE-71R. Given it is "200" treadwear for the street classes, but that is BS haha. My buddy Paul Solk is running I believe some nice Kumho? slicks at the NJMP that go up to a 275, and he loves them....said they were $100 for a brand new set. I'll likely go with them just due to cost haha

Ya, RE-71 street tire is for cheaters. they built a great tire but have made a boatload just from sandbagging the treadware rating. Hankook z214. Those are still a DOT tire but absolutely awesome rubber for the money. As fast as an R7 for 2/3rds the price. Very very fun to drive.

This is a very interesting thread. Especially, because as I get older, the PDK Cayman is looking pretty darn good. Thanks for starting the thread.