track guys, how do you stop oil pressure drop in corners

I'll preface this thread with lots of searching done on my end. My car is a 99 996 coupe. Engine is mainly stock, 200utqg tires, some suspension work, 99% street car. What I have done is installed a 1.5L Mantis oil pan with baffles, set up a front mounted oil cooler (with a Tilton pump running lines from the pan), upgraded radiators and new cooling system. I've ran the car at one track day completely stock and noticed oil pressure dipping to 1-2bar in high G turns. installed the mantis pan, oil cooler and took it back out again only to find the same results. I see plenty of people running their cars at the track so I'm assuming either you guys live with pressure drop and roll the dice or do something different from me (perhaps an accusump?) this is my 3rd track day in the 996 with same results no matter what oiling mods I do so any input is appreciated.

I have been chasing the problem all season. My car will be fine for the first 15 minutes of the first session of the day, and progressively give me less and less time as the day progresses. By the end of the day, I am only out on the track for about 8 minutes until it starts to drop, at which point I pit in (I blew my motor last year, 100% my fault), so I am very cautious when it comes to things that could blow it up again. I have the FVD deep sump and run XP9 oil. I have done all of the same research as you have, and have not found the magic bullet to fix the issue. Not everyone has the issue. I know someone that just started using XP9 and it fixed the issue. Others have used accusumps and it still does not fix the issue. I have also seen multiple videos of people who have been tracking their car for thousands of miles and in every turn you see it dip. What is interesting is that the motor I have is a remanufactured motor by Porsche with all of the 997 upgrades. This issue started after I put this motor in. It never happened on the original motor before I blew it up. Do you know if you have the original motor in your car? Part of me suspects it is actually an issue with the oil pressure sending unit (which I did replace). I may add a new oil pressure gauge and see if it is really an issue. I was planning on getting the mantis pan, but since that did not help you, maybe I will not bother. Sorry, this is not giving you any answers, but it is giving some additional data.

To ask the obvious question, if you are at full throttle does it do the same thing. The answer to all questions on the track is more gas less brake. In all seriousness, don't sweat it. If you are going slow enough to watch your oil pressure gauge I guarantee it's not an issue. Deep sump baffle and XP-9 are the appropriate safeguards for tracking this engine. About half of the 996 racers I know also use an accusump but there is no evidence that they have less issues than the baffle only. As long as you don't money shift, these engines are insanely durable.

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I'm fairly certain that I have the original motor since its still throttle cable and not electronic. I'm a bit puzzled about why this would happen to some and not others, seems odd. I actually have a stand alone VDO pressure and temp gauge installed and watched the vdo unit display. Factory pressure gauge on the cluster is worthless as it sits at 5 bar the whole time. VDO unit shows fluctuation more inline to what I was expecting. The VDO pressure sending unit is installed on the opposite bank where the boxster would have its dummy light.

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I'm certainly not going fast, but I have the gauge set up so its easy to glance at mid turn. All I have to do is notice 30psi-25psi and I know things are not OK. I was running DT40 on track, watched temps get to 220-230 but the pressure drop happens well before oil temps start to creep into 230 range. I'm talking second hot lap. I want to believe you that these motors are strong, but at 25psi at 6000RPM, no motor is gonna last.

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So for me, as I exit the turn (under full throttle), I look down and see that it is between 1-2 or 2-3, it will climb back up. Also seems to happen much more on right hand turns. I have also noticed it under full throttle on a NASCAR banked turn at Pocono (so plenty of time to take a peak). BTW, this is the second time that someone has said if you are going slow enough to look at it, that there is not an issue. That doesn't make a ton of sense to me. Checking it (after I blew my motor) is something that is now just habit when I am on the track. I do it at the exact same spots throughout each lap. Just like checking for flags. It's funny, I've never heard, "Well, you saw that red flag and came to a controlled stop, so you must not have been going fast"

The reason is when you are riding the edge it's almost impossible to focus on anything else. Once I enter a corner, the only thing I'm looking for is my heads up marker or track out point. I've checked my mirror a few times and had the rear end decide it was sick of following and wanted to lead. That being said, without a full cage and safety gear, it's probably not a good idea to spend too much time on the edge. So that would make it a little easier to check a gauge. But it's something I would never do myself or recommend to someone else.

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youre right, for the most part I only check the gauge through slower corners or intentionally go through the corner slower to be able to look. so if its happening at lower speeds (lower G's), I can only imagine how bad it is when I dont check. Slakker, so youre saying switching to XP9 has solved the starvation issue for you? Were you dropping oil pressure prior to running gibbs oil?

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Will need to agree to disagree here, since basically what you are saying is unless something is at your track out marker you will not see it. It is dangerous to be that focused on your track out marker. By the time you are pointed at track out, you should already be looking at your next turn, and for flags, or debris, or the car that just spun in front of you...

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I yell at myself as I enter a turn "eyes up, eyes up, eyes up".

In the short time that I have had my car I have tracked it with Mobil 1, DT40, and XP9. I was using the stock oil baffle w/ Mobil 1 and the EBSR metal door X51 baffle with the DT40 and XP9. My anecdotal and approximate observations (on my car - 2003 3.6L stock C2 engine): Hot idle coming off track on a hot day - 1.3 Mobil 1, 1.5 DT40, 2.0 XP9 Oil pressure drop noticed during high G turns hot engine (well into session), hot day - 2.0 Mobil 1, 2.2 DT40, 2.5 XP9

I'm looking for apex in the brake zone and as soon as I turn in I'm already looking for my heads up track out marker. A tree, billboard, light pole, 3rd Martin house in the line. If there is debris on the track then that's the flagman's responsibility. If there is a spun car then peripheral vision will pick that up. If you want to be a better driver, lower your seat or block your windshield to where you can't even see the track 30-40' in front of your (recommended to me by a pro instructor). Eyes up is everything when it comes to driver improvement. Here is picture of me going through a low speed turn in a race. You can't tell in the picture but I was extremely and intentionally focused on a set of tires a 50 yards away and not on the car in front of me. As for the XP9, no, it prevents oil sheer not starvation. I've seen the Aim Data where oil pressure drops in turns but it looked spotty at best to me. And I have never talked to a race shop or an experienced 996 racer that had any concern for oil pressure drop in turns on the track. I encourage you to contact yours and see if they feel differently. photo986.jpg

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I think this is the best answer. Lots of guys tracking 996's and 997's extensively using Mobil Water with no problems. Just drive it, take good care of it, but just drive it. If you blow it up...hey it's 4.0 build time. Nobody said this hobby could be cheap.

Are you using the standard gauge to measure oil pressure drops in real time - while hustling the car mid corner on track? If so - you're at best getting a very loose bit of information that likely isn't all that helpful to you. There are so many variables that come into play - is your throttle/traction/RPM/G-force load exactly the same each lap? I've put roughly 10K track miles on my mostly stock 3.6 M96 - not taking it easy either. Your best bet it is to do what the Spec 996 guys/gals do. If you don't know anyone who actively races then follow the SP996 class guidelines. I'm a fan of a deep sump/baffle upgrade + running proper oil designed for wet sump track use (like the Driven XP series and others). Do these and don't worry about it. As you do this more and more, it's driver error, debris, a mis-shift, or a "racing incident" that you worry about...not your M96.

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Already had the mis-shift which is why I have the new motor in the car. What is so perplexing is that it seems so random. I have talked to a ton of people tracking 996s, some have the issue, some don't. Some have had the issue and the fixes listed above take care of the issue. Some have done all of the fixes and it still happens. As I mentioned, this did not happen with my last motor. I also don't think it is a byproduct of me just going faster. While this is my second year in the 911, I have been doing DEs for 8 years with close to 150 days at the track. Granted the first couple weekends in the 911 were slower than my normal pace, but I was not driving at a novice pace.

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Yes, that's a very valid opinion, but how many times have you crashed your car using this strategy? You're not really going fast until you crash.

This probably shouldn't apply to DE's but it is SO true and the root of my addiction. The first time I screwed up a corner and took it so hot I thought I was going to die, but some how pulled it off and gained a 1.5s on my predictive laptime was one of the biggest adrenaline rushes of my life. I've been purposefully trying to recreate it ever since. When the tires are slipping through the entire corner, you know you are riding the edge. When they start to slide, you know you've taken it too far and are scrubbing speed. Riding the line in between is one of the few times in life that I am absolutely living in the moment.

In regards to the gauge showing brief drops in high g corners. Is there something about the frequency of the oil pressure sending unit on M96s that was changed on the M97s. I believe the milliseconds are lengthened on the 997 to get a more average type reading, rather than the hyper sensitive readings on the M96. Or am I incorrect?

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I was totally kidding. Crashing at a DE for any reason other than a mechanical failure is inexcusable IMO. It costs everybody track time (money) and puts safety workers and other drivers at risk. Knowingly driving in a manner that could cause loss of control of the car at a DE is diametrically opposed to the purpose of the event, and should be reserved for racing, if it's even appropriate there. If somebody drops some wheels off or spins in an area with runoff I get that those things happen, but I disagree with the concept of taking every corner so hard that you can't do anything but hang on for dear life with tunnel-vision to the trackout point and pray you make it there. To each his own, but please try not to run over anybody or cause a red flag.

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Can we take a guess at the delay based on how long it takes the gauge to settle on a reading when the engine is started, or when revved from idle to a new RPM? Also, since the pressure sensor is at the tail end of the oil circuit, can we take any solace in knowing that it should be the *lowest* pressure on the pressurized side of the oil circuit, and every part of the engine is experiencing at least that pressure OR HIGHER?

I wasn't. The whole point of tracking a car is pushing the limits within ones own comfort zone, as long as it doesn't endanger others. Once I learned to catch the rear end, after many failed attempts, my comfort zone grew immensely and I gained the ability to push the car in a consistent and predictable manner. Think of someone that drifts for a hobby. How easy is it for them to find the optimum slip angle having spent so much time beyond it in a controlled manner? When I was studying videos of a local club racer that I respected and learned that he started out doing drifting competitions, that's when it clicked for me. And just for clarification, drifting has no place on a road course as it scrubs speed and kills your times. But the place right before it is where you HAVE to be to be competitive at any level beyond "pleasure tracking."

Accusump!

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Most people go to DE to learn and have fun. They don't want to run their cars into the tirewall or armco like you've done on multiple occasions. So how about we cool it with all the "flat out" commentary huh. Back to the technical issue: I run the EBS vertical baffle and tuneRS 2qt spacer with horizontal baffle. I also use the spin on oil filter adapter. Sadly, I don't have my gauges up yet to get a good sense of pressure. Without a dry sump, all this stuff is bandaiding, but it might be just enough to keep the motor alive. That said, these motors are not durable in any sense. They are pretty much junk.

This is absolutely true. And some people may be curious what it takes to go fast. So now we have a perspective for each of them.

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I'm the Safety Chair and an Instructor for my region. Incidents are going to happen, sometimes mechanical, sometimes people run out of talent (we all have to one degree or another). The idea is to always be safe, be predictable to those around you and make progress. Riding the "edge" can be great providing you don't fall off. Falling off the edge can suck. Even when racing, you are out there with other people, that expect you can handle your car in a certain way. That's why there are rules about contact. Better lap times are great. Safe better lap times are better. Flying around the track just on the edge of control is not good for you, the car, your instructor, or the cars around you. Also, as Safety Chair, incidents create a ton of paperwork for me, so I really prefer them not to happen.

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Did you say...."Flat Out"??? You Tube

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At one of my local tracks there is a sign in the registration booth that reads something like... "You arrive at the track with a full bag of luck and an empty bag of talent. Your goal is to fill the talent bag before the luck bag runs out."

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thats what I'm getting out of this experience as well. Motor is junk. As much as I like the 996, just doesnt seem like the DE fun is worth the price reduction when you sell the car as a shell. I appreciate the comments guys. I guess I should ask if anyone here experienced engine failure that they were able to pin point later to oil pressure drop?

This issue has held me at odds for some time now. I always yearned for the duality of the 911 of being a car you can enjoy on the street and take to the track from time to time. After expereincing two engine failures at the track Im weary of ever taking my 996 C2 to a DE ever again. As much as I love my 996 Ive been searching for a 996 turbo that has a dry sump and can be the 911 with the duality Ive been searching for. I spun rod bearing #6 at the track. A common issue with the m96 engine, because of preasure drop and low viscosity from the Motul 8100 excess oil that I was using. Although I should have been using Motul 300V or JG xp9 its still a pain that theres still a big risk even when you use the right oil.

I really think that the durability of the m96 is a myth, I have seen and have beaten the death out of my 996 with no issues. Shure engines break but the spec Boxster guys have been ragging them out for years.

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It seems like it comes down to what day the motor was built on. My original motor had zero issues, had been tracked for 10 years and had 117K on it. It would still be fine if I did not money shift it. I run with people who did European Delivery on their cars, have over 40,000 track miles and still have original everything on the car. Other people take all of the precautions in the world, and the motor blows up for no reason at all. I'm sure it is the same with every manufacturer. I tracked E36 M3s before i got the 911. Both of my M3s were high mileage cars, one that had been tracked since day 1. I never had a motor issue. BUT, I part out M3s as a side business and I have sold 5 S52s motors to people who blew them up on the track. The big difference is a used S52 is $2500, and used 911 motor is $10K.

I've come to the conclusion that if you can't bring yourself to drive a Miata, then the E36 is by far the best bang for the buck in a track car. They are a whole lot of fun and insanely cheap to run.

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LOL. My first track car was a 94 Miata. The E36 is fun, but not as much fun as the 911. Right now, the cost of entry can be about the same for the E36 M3 as the 911. It's after the initial cost it can become an issue. I'm fortunate that my side business of parting out cars pays for it all. Even more fortunate that when I blew my motor, I ended up making money after it was all said and done with the parts car I purchased to yank the motor from.

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There's some wisdom buried in here. If you spend enough time at the track, you will see mechanical failures of all kinds with all makes/models/engines. This is a reality. The major issue with the M96 on track is the relative replacement/rebuild cost vs the cost of entry (price of the car). I say relative because compared to an E30, E36 or even E46 - the M96 motor is going to cost you more to replace or rebuild than one of the more pedestrian BMW engines. Same goes for most of the Miata, Chevy, Toyota, Honda, etc... engines you'll find slogging it out with your 996 on any given track day. Whether your replacement/rebuild is a result of failure, wear items, mis-shift, or incident - your cost will be relatively higher than most non-Porsche cars that you share the track with. If that reality is too much - then find another car to beat up on track. If you could find a used 996 motor for ~$1500 like you can for a spec E46 then all of this talk of crappy M96 motors would be moot.

The M3 I took in trade weighs 2800# and has a nice track suspension. I've got a buddy that already wants to buy it. But it that doesn't go through I've figured out how I can drop 200# and go with Delrin/solid bushings all the way around for about $1500. The little sucker should tighten up and fly quite nicely then. I take it you sell your parts on eBay? If so, what name do you sell under?

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YellowShirtAuctions on eBay or www.shantytownsalvage.com What is listed there is a small fraction of the parts that I have available.

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^^^^ This, we have used the Accusump for a lot of the Viper track cars over the years and they work seamlessly when used with electric solenoid valve.

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Are those figures showing the differences in oil pressure by brand, is that based on all three brands on fresh oil change or some prior use before those readings? Thanks David

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Spec boxster guys seem to also have spare motors at the ready. My 2.5 died with a loss of compression in cylinder three. Having to run a $16/quart race oil just to go round the track in blue/white is kind of ridiculous. Not to mention the oil pan being baffled to timbuktu, AOS failures threatening a hydrolock, the illustrious IMS, the cracked heads, cracked cylinders, bore scoring, rear rod/main bearings, etc etc. For street use its an acceptable motor...on the track, my opinion is that those that haven't blown an engine have just been lucky.

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Each time was a fresh oil change with the only pre-track mileage on it was driving to the track about 100 miles. These are my anecdotal observations using the dash gauge, which as pointed out has its shortcomings. The argument for XP9 is that it maintains viscosity at the high oil temps produced when tracking the M96 engine especially on a hot day. The other two tend to get "watery" at high temps which leads to more drop in oil pressure...at least that's the theory.

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My experience with Xp line of oils has been in a honda. Built b series endurance motor that runs for 10-16 hours at a time. The biggest benefit from Joe Gibbs is its ability to handle heat. we run XP1, so it is way thinner, but it still burns and runs out of steam at around 5-600 miles (unlike the advertised 1000). We typically do oil changes every 500 miles max. That being said, Xp oil will not prevent an engine from starving if the oil is being sloshed around. Its good insurance for a track day, but unfortunately I can see spending an extra $2-300 in oil (2 oil changes) just so I can kind of track this car. As some have stated, if you can afford to blow up this motor at any random time...take it to HPDE. I cannot. Looks like the 996 will remain a street car for now.

You will have big warning light if the OP drops to a dangerous level. The AiM MXL-2, a mere $1,999 , its display turns red, you can't miss it when any of the fluids you are monitoring such as oil pressure, oil temperature and water temp reach preset critical levels. With the later model 996 cars, much data can be pulled off the OBD II port, reducing/eliminating the need to add sensors. Couple the warning feature with a programmable shift might and data logging, it's one hell of a fine system. I had one on my 993, sold it...going to get one for my 6GT3. Couple this with a Smarty Cam, Hog Heaven!!!!

Did you install 997 style oil return pipes, I've heard they reduce foaming over the 996 type and some deep sump kits come with them, also the power kit engine has upgraded scavenge pumps to improve oil return to the sump from the cam box but they expensive !!

I don't think the 997 return tubes reduce foaming at oil. The 996 swirl pot design would seem to work better, but at the expense of quick drainback. Who knows.

Be interesting to see if the 997 tubes draining back quicker helps, easy job to swap out and a cheap part just take off sump plate and each one held in by two bolts, wonder if op interested in swapping then doing a comparison ?

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I lost my engine this season due in my 996 3.4 to oil starvation/windage. I learned the hardway....Now it looks like I will put a 997 engine and will make sure I have the right oil system to prevent from happening again.

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Hmm, this is interesting. As I said before, I never had an issue with the original 3.4 I had in the car (the one the car was born with with 117K miles). I started to have the issue with the used motor I put in after I money shifted the original motor. I was happy to find out when I got the motor out of the salvage car that I bought that it was a Porsche remanufactured motor, which was made after 2005, so it has all of the 997 upgrades, IMS, etc. I'm guessing it has the 997 return tubes. Maybe I will try to swap the 996 return tubes back in, and see what happens.

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I have one of (in my opinion) one of the nicest C4S's in the country - rare factory aero, etc.....and the car is imaculate - almost too clean..... I sometimes wonder if I should just buy an old Miata to trash and keep Bertha for long spirited weekend drives - but then I look at her and just convince myself that everything will be okay :-)

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This is the DT plan and I endorse it. Also, $20 rotors and $30 oil changes.