blown engine

My 2002 996 engine just shrapneled itself to death at 100,500 miles. Yes, I did have the LN IMS bearing replaced at 77,700 miles. My options (and questions) are: 1) repair the engine (no idea what this would run as it will cost $700 to $1000 to tear down the engine just to get an estimate) 2) replace the engine (my local mechanic who I trust recommends this, initial estimate is close to 20k$) 3) sell the car to someplace like Parts Heaven (I live in San Diego so this is the closest place like that I know of) and a) buy another Porsche, or b) buy a new inexpensive sedan If I decide to replace the car (and not spend the est. 20k$ to get a replacement motor with a guarantee of sorts), should I stick with a 996 or go to a newer car (which sounds attractive, but will cost more). And what should I get for the 996 w/blown engine should I sell it as is? I'd very much appreciate the forum's thoughts. P.S., I live in California; thus any engine swap must meet CA smog/ARB requirements. and yes, I love the 996 (much nicer than my 911SC), but would not be adverse to stepping up to a 997

option 4 - convert to a LSx motor. Cost - could be done for $15K or so http://www.renegadehybrids.com/911/LS-1.html

im with c4. It makes the best sense for the money. Turbo power with the same motor weight and the kit from renegade is pretty much complete. Ive thought about doing this while I have a good motor I can sell.

Lots of other questions to answer. Do you like the car you have? What condition is it in sans the engine? What do you mean "shrapneled itself to death"? Did pieces of the engine literally fly all over the road? At what rpm and under what driving conditions did this happen? It might be worth at least looking at your engine to see what the acutual damage is and what exact part failed. Your estimated price of $20k for a new engine doesn't seem very precise. What if parts from yours are salvageable, or you can find another engine from a car that was totaled for $10k? If your heads are undamaged you might consider only buying a new bottom end and using your heads and all the other external gear that sits on your motor. The devil you know vs the devil you don't know...if you were really happy with your car it makes sense to stay with it. If you were itching to make a change than now seems like the right time. But if you are buying another preowned car you are back to ground zero and may have to start all over and the cost may be as much as just putting another engine in your existing car. Good luck with whatever you decide.

If you want to repair the car with used motor, you are looking at $10k-$15k to spend. If you are looking at Fla6 repair, you are looking at $20k to spend. As-is you have $5k-$7k roller. If you do the renegade conversion, you must realize that you immediately alienate almost all of the potential Porsche buyers in the future. LS1 is awesome, but only a true DIY enthusiast will be excited about the LS1 powered 911. Everyone else will pass on the deal. I would dump the roller and get something else.

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Here is how I think about the math: sell roller - net $6K buy similar 996: $18K Net loss: $12K rebuild or used M96 motor: $15K Car value once done: $17K net loss: $10K renegade LSx conversion: $15K car value once done: $15K (absolute worse case) Net loss: $15K So for $3K more that selling the roller and buying another working 996 you can have one with a motor that will not fail, is cheap to maintain and makes a bunch more HP and TQ. I still think that's what I would do.

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Could have registration/smog problems in California, so a LSx swap is probably not an option

^^ If you wanted to keep the 996 for a long time, LS1 is a best solution in my view too. But if you are trying to sell the car within the next few years, 996 with LS1 would be very hard to sell and you would get nothing for it as a trade-in from a dealer.

my choice would be to repair the engine if possible (probably 12-13k) or find a rare used engine

Hey Cringley, I'm dealing with the exact same thing. Here's a link to my thread, which should provide all the info. you want to know. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...today-and.html Also, forget the LS swap. It will be way more than 15K, I already researched that.

Buy a cheap sedan (3 series BMW or something like it) with cash.. Keep the 996, man up and DIY the car yourself as you have time. The car is virtually worthless as is, spend the time and learn something new..

I live in California; thus any engine swap must meet CA smog/ARB requirements. I'm not mechanical inclined, so any work would be done by a third party. and yes, I love the 996 ( much nicer than my 911SC which also lost a motor which is why I stepped up to the 996 ), but would not be adverse to stepping up to a 997

Sell the 996 as an intact roller, weep at your loss, console yourself with a replacement 997, you'll move on to your next love and the 996 episode will be forgotten. I'm a "rip the Band-Aid off quickly" kind of guy.

There is a complete running engine in Craigslist in California for sale they're asking $6,000 probably can haggle that price down

Sell it as-is.

Would really love to hear how the LN bearing looks if you tear into the motor. Looks like you got a lot of miles after the swap.

If you are going to get a new car anyways, sell the shell as-is. If you want to keep the car, find a used engine and swap in.

any pics of the roller? i might be interested if you decide to sell it.

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+1, I agree our SMOG is terrible here and it'd be a big hassle putting in a different manufacturers engine, then trying to get it certified to operate in California. Sell it, move to 997, and never look back.

Sell the carcass for $6,000. Buy 911661's for $13,000 cash. You're back in the game for net $7,000. Even though his car has 148k on the clock, it will probably give you another 50,000 miles. If you kill the engine on that one, well, your loss is at least minimized - sell that carcass and move on the 997.

I am rebuilding a 'blown' M96 now. No, not just writing checks for a mechanic -everything myself. My grade for that decision? FFF ! Fascinating but Financially Foolish ! Would I rebuild an M96 in future -of course ! Why? If you enjoy engineering it is fascinating.All those unique designs to ponder -why did they do that? Actually get a better response to :"Warum haben sie das getan?" My proposal -sell it here on Rennlist to a foolish geek like me who will make it a labor of love to restore it -"rust free California body...."

Sorry to hear about your engine. Were there any warning signs?

Schnell, I considered doing the same thing. Is it the replacement parts cost that's the worse part? Sorry for the To the OP, read Cudas thread but your probably better off to sell as a roller. Every option is gonna hurt. Sorry about your car.

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This is my vote as well. If you feel like you are "done with the car" and would rather move on than deal with repair/replacement, etc, now is that time. Sell as-is. The only variation to this advice would hinge on what actually happened to your engine. In other words, is it truly ruined, or is it actually repairable? If it were repairable, I would take a good look at the option of having it repaired and potentially upgraded. From threads on this forum it sounds like there are several shops in CA that could do a great job rebuilding an M96. Flat-6 is a well known shop located across the country from you to consider as well. Let us know what you decide to do. I'm sure you will get plenty of advice and offers either way.

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Doesn't seem like 24k miles is a lot of miles for a LN IMSB. I thought they were expected to last 2-3 times that long. No?

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No one said Bearing was the issue. My thought is would be good to hear how it is holding up for that amount of miles...

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Oh I gotcha. Yes I would be interested in that. I have one with 11k miles on it. Just did oil change and filter and perfectly clean. So far so good I guess.

Buy 911661s car for $12K and sell yours as a roller for $7K and you have yourself an aero 996 with a running engine. then use $3K to do some updates to the engine and you have yourself a 996 for another 50-60K miles. Your loss $8K. Everybody wins.

So how did the engine get shrapneled? You seem to be suite calm about the situation, was it your fault? A nasty downshift? Paul

No idea what caused the damage. I don't get even close to the redline. My previous (911SC) lasted 375,000 miles until the #2 cylinder let go (thus the replacement 996). So you can pretty much assume I'm gentle with my car. Did get a quote form my local independent for a replacement motor with 6 mo. warranty at 16k$ + 3k$ install etc. No decisions yet. Will keep the Forum informed as things happen.

I like lost causes, if you're looking for a SoCal buyer of the roller.

There is a 3.4l engine in dc for 5.5k 2001 Porsche 911 cabriolet parting out (fits Boxster) 1 http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/doc/pts/4840410241.html

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You can't run a 3.4 in a 3.6 car without some expensive modifications....

what if you swapped the entire harness over, ran a cable throttle, got a new gas pedal, a 5.2.2 motronic DME, and maybe new instrument cluster to properly back date... would we be in business then?

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Probably not.

getting very close to a decision and am leaning heavily towards selling the car as-is and getting a new(er) 911 (I'm not mechanically minded and have always had an independent service my car). I'm in San Diego. Is selling to a dismantler (like Parts Heaven) a good idea or could I get (substantially) more by selling it myself?

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Give Oklahoma Foreign a call and see what it would offer you for your car. If you can work out a suitable deal OF will deposit 1/2 the amount in your checking account and send a truck by to pick up the car and you get the remaining money then. At least this is the way it was explained to me when I explored selling my totaled 2008 Cayman S to OF back in 2009.

There is a 3.6 motor in Florida asking $10K in member classifieds. Don't know the seller or motor ya da ya da

I believe Raby as also expressed interest in rollers in the past, but I can't guarantee that this is accurate.

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I would like to come see it & make you an offer. I can come today or tomorrow... PM me if available

you should post a photo and details and get a little bidding war going. i might be interested as well.

Do you know what lunched the engine?

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Yes! the business of downgrading & basturdizing Porsches

Photo of car is on the left, interior is clean, body nearly excellent due to partial respray after minor sideswipe, not much road rash since. Averages a bit above 24 mpg, 27+ hiway. Bought car 9/26/2012 with 77676 miles from Automotive Excellence in San Diego Artic silver, 18" alloy wheels w/colored crest caps, Xenon headlights, headlight washer, 12 speaker remote CD changer, floor mats, had seller install LN IMS bearings prior to delivery. Work done since (in addition to scheduled maintenance): Replaced headlight switch; Replaced vacuum reservoir, change-over valve and air injection shut-off valve, Replaced bank 1 cam position sensor, left turn signal light wiring harness & bulbs. Motor "died" 2 days ago (engine runs, but there are metal shards in oil/oil filter) at 100,400 miles. What I initially heard was sort of like rocks in hub caps. No noticeable loss of power. I thought it might be something like a water pump, so I drove it—cautiously—from my home in Carlsbad down to shop in SD. Got the bad news yesterday. No idea what caused the failure. Car is presently at ind. repair shop in Kearny Mesa area of San Diego. I probably won’t get down there for add’l photos (if requested) until next Thursday (Jan 22). Feel free to PM me if you want location or make offer.

Wow, so car goes 77k on factory IMS and 23K on expensive LN IMS bearing? Makes me wonder about the quality of the install (if it actually was installed)

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Once again, nobody has said it was the IMS....

True enough but the symptom "rocks in a hub cap" indicates a high probability, though being able to drive the car after hearing that makes one wonder if it might be something else?

If you can drive the car, its probably not the imsb. Maybe the chain for one bank went. I have heard of the motor running on 3 cylinders in a turbo due to a broken chain.

Surely you would notice some kind of power loss. How far did you drive it?

Really - no loss of power? Second opinion maybe?

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Ditto. California car so, presumably, no severe cold weather starting risk across its history. Bad install of IMSB; water pump fragmentation; timing chain breach? Even if the cylinders scored, is this is foreseeable outcome? Odd.

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Possibly as far as 40 miles. Didn't stomp on the accelerator, but going up a 10% grade, didn't have to hit the gas, just tickle it. I've attached a photo of the (taken apart) oil filter showing the metal filings caught by the filter—if that will help (especially if someone knows what a trashed IMS bearing does to the oil filter). sorry for the size of the image

Is JR. Still around to see this?

Hmmm.... looks more like ground up plastic than metal. Rail guide?

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And isn't the LN bearing ceramic ball? What metal would come from the bearing?

There no way this is IMS related. The motor would have seized up from loss of oil. Something else caused this. No doubt damage was done after 40 miles.

I've had a similar engine issue. The chain rails debris should be brown/dark brown Magnetic debris -maybe IMS Non metallic glitttering debris = crankshaft/rod bearings White/grey granular - look at it under a microscope to see the shape of the particles. ceramic should be shards ,not spheres?

That is a crap ton of debris. I found maybe half of one of those filter folds. Next I found a glitter filled two row IMSB and then went on to find heavily worn out main and rod bearings. I'm going to guess you drove that car 40 miles with five cylinders.

also, no loss of oil pressure during the drive to repair shop, normal water temp, no check engine light or any dashboard indicators. If it wasn't for the noise, I wouldn't have been aware of any problem.

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This is not making sense......at all. Maybe you ran over a squirrel and it somehow got lodged in your airbox.....and that squirrel is super pissed! I would be to after 40 miles. So what exactly is your mechanic saying in order to charge $19K for a installed motor? That part isn't clear unless I mis-read something.

I'm no expert, but that's a lot of metal for an engine that showed no symptoms. I'd almost suspect the water pump ( if it had metal blades) that carved up the block.

Nice fine metallic grit, perfect for extrude honeing all internal clearances!

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Agree with Pete. Get a second opinion. Your engine may very well be toast - but that's the worst-case diagnosis despite your lack of other symptoms. That filter doesn't look like other filters we've seen. I'm not qualified to diagnose your problem or even to disagree with what your mechanic has told you. But, given the lack of secondary symptoms, I'd want to verify that declaration of death. You've really got nothing to lose.

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20 hrs labor (includes front end alignment, A/C service and other small stuff) @ $100/hr, 16k$ for rebuilt engine w/6mo warranty, most parts, oil, for total of $19,854 (includes $1,300 in CA state tax)

For future planning, most rollers are going for around $5-6K at best, not $7k as some people have posted. I bought mine for less than $4K.

^I think you are correct. Although, I spoke to a guy just yesterday at our Porsche breakfast who bought a plain Jane 2002 C2 roller for $8,500 and had Raby rebuild the engine. It sounds like was an exceptionally clean roller with only 12,000 miles on the odometer though, so that's probably the higher end.

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Yup, you are no expert. Where did you come up with this theory?

Easy- How do you explain that much shrapnel with no operational symptoms. Which bearing or bearings could grenade that much trash and not affect the operation or indications of the motor? If it's chain rail debris, wouldn't the slapping chains cause some running issues? Rather than sarcasm, perhaps you can tells us what it is.

I think his point is, debris in the coolant (ex: from water pump) would not show up on an oil filter.

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No, he was just being rude. No oil pressure loss and continued operation for some 40 miles or so seems to disqualify most of the usual suspects for grenading an engine (assuming that is even the case). A fragged water pump spitting impeller blades could lead to debris in the oil filter and just about every where else by some point, no?

Back to the original question. First thing you need to decide is how much you like/love the car. With 105,000 miles, even with a new motor, I don't think its worth it financially unless you plan on keeping the car for a few years. If you do plan on keeping it and driving it, then for the $20k you could not find a better car. Assuming everything else on the car is good.

Newbie here looking for more info on a 'Howaboutthat' comment referencing severe cold weather starts. Just purchased an 01 and still getting my feet wet with everything. Live in CT and since yesterday was dry and sunny but in the 20's decided to take her for a little run. Can you talk in more detail about cold weather starts? Thanks in advance!

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Which begs the question....who says the motor is toast and what evidence backs it up?

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There is a theory that cold starts in really cold weather leads to cylinder scoring. Some reputable people think so. I live in NE Ohio and it is my daily driver so I spent some time looking into this. This was my conclusion. Cold weather starts may be a factor for cylinder scoring because more cars from colder climates have scoring than cars from warmer climates. But there is no direct link as cars from both climates suffer from this occasionally. It's not common. There is no direct evidence, and there are lots of other factors involved. I drive mine every day. Temp was -4 last week. I don't loose sleep over it.

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Dgjks6 summarized it well. Seems some Canadian and other northern climate folks experienced a disproportionate amount of bore scoring that was diagnosed shortly after a series of very cold weather starts last winter. If it is below 20 degrees (Fahrenheit) I tend not to drive the car if it would remain outside long enough to adjust fully to the ambient temperature. Starting the car in the warmer garage and driving around, and even leaving it parked for a while outside in such temperatures does not concern me, but I play it conservatively by way of the super cold starts. If I did not have another vehicle handy, I would follow dgjks6's philosophy and ignore it.

Car was a daily driver (although I got laid off last year and so I've only been driving it a couple of days a week, typically going 35 miles (down to Point Loma) one day and short 5-10 mile trips around town). Car has always been garaged.

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He got a great deal, but the intermix sat in the cooling system so long that it deteriorated all the hoses. What a mess, I hate it when people do that! Nothing sucks worse than changing every hose in the vehicle! The material in that oil filter does appear to be from cylinder/ piston wear. If you are going to have a failure, this is the best one to have, because the collateral damage doesn't take out any of the parts that we reuse during a reconstruction. Generally.....

Here's the other two pictures that Black Forest sent me (I'm assuming the is the holder for the oil filter). Not sure if this gives any add'l info on failure mode.

Thats revealing.. See all that copper colored stuff? Thats main and rod bearing material, nothing else in this engine has that material. Also, see the bypass valve at the bottom of the canister? The rocket scientist that designed the filter and housing placed this in just the perfect place for the debris to collect here. Guess what? When the filter bypass opens at start up, all that material you see there has a chance to be force fed AROUND the filter and straight to all the other internals. Based on that photo alone, this one is disqualified. Time to issue a Death Certificate.

So the obvious question is how could you have prevented the Dr.Kevorkian episode? Based on my similar experience and current rebuild, what saved my engine was the LN full flow spin on filter. It catches all the debris on the 1 st circulation -not just some of it -like the OEM filter. Yes, I still had bearing debris in the pan but not much and it had sunk to the bottom of the pan. That debris that got into the circulation system was stopped by the filter so it did not go far enough to cause collateral damage. Please note this is just my experience of 1 rebuild .The bearing/crank damage was a mild version of what is shown here. The magnetic sump plug on mine did not collect much because it was almost entirely bearing debris. The local Porsche Indie(ex-main dealer) pronounced the bearing debris "IMS failed". I doubted it because the car had only a few hundred miles on an LN ceramic bearing.Needless to say he was wrong !The bearing was fine but had to be replaced because of the debris risk. The rest of the bearing/journal surfaces were O.K. Saved by LN thank you Charles/Jake because this happened 10 days after i bought the car! I hope this helps others take precautions to avoid what happened to the OP.

I'm extremely interested to hear how this could have been prevented. Jake, as a well respected contributor, perhaps you can shed some light on this situation?

To overview how this could have been prevented, we must first study the fault path. What typically causes this is some debris in the oil that then bypasses the filter and is fed into the main and rod bearings. This is also what we see from track cars that have killed their oil, and have lost viscosity from this occurrence. Every failure has a primary source, with several different collateral damages.

Judging from the color of the oil that dripped on the wood can you really say that the debris is copper content or just appears in a really bad photo to have a 'copper' color tint to it? I have no expertise on what is likely in there or experience with what one sees in the filter housing of dead engines but I'd want to spread that stuff out and dry it off of all oil since the picture of the filter didn't seem to have copper colored debris.

The copper colored debris is made of heavier particles. These settle to the bottom of the filter housing, and are seldom caught in the media of the filter. This is another reason why the OE filter housing is a horrible design, and leads to further failures.

I am not presuming to add to Jake's comments -just thought the following may help: Regarding the color issue. Obviously there are other pigmented contaminants in the oil,primarily carbon.These contaminants form a dark sludge with the 'interesting' debris .So that is why sediment is collected, diluted in a solvent(gas is O.K.) ,filtered and the filtrate is then dried on a white paper towel. When dry, you'll think you may have a gold mine in the engine with all the glitter.In my engine failure case, the oil was fresh and the car had been well maintained. So the oil was pale enough to reveal the glitter immediately. The OP has darker oil that is all -it seems. The OP's photo of the OEM filter appeared to show a lot of white/grey material -which may be part of the story. Whatever the origin of the path of failure, the debris laden lubricant causes the expensive collateral damage. Hence my enthusiasm for a full flow filter,magnetic sump plug and tracking down new engine noises promptly. Best of all the precautions are cheap and easy diy.

I think regardless of the source of the debris, the engine will have to be completely torn down and cleaned anway. At 100k, new bearings, resleeving, new rings, etc will be easily $5k in parts alone?

Can someone please give me a direct link to where I can purchase the "full flow" oil filter (source, part number, etc.)? After seeing that bypass valve at the low spot, seems like a good idea to replace the OEM one.

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http://lnengineering.com/products/ot...ayman-911.html

My filter looked almost like yours. Maybe 25% less metal in it. As soon as I saw the copper shavings in the sump, it was clear the crankshaft and connecting bearings were coming apart. Cost wise, you are probably better off getting a good used engine because fixing this will not be cheap. Since you can't do the work, it's not worth gambling by trying to spend more money on this engine. Sell it as a core if you can and that will offset the cost of the replacement engine a little.

"$5k in parts" That is the easy part. Acquiring the knowledge,skills, tools and equipment is another story.... I had the tools and equipment,arguably the skills for my rebuild but the knowledge to do a competent rebuild is very difficult/expensive to acquire. Justifying all that for one rebuild(well hopefully only one !)is a fools errand. Or an enthusiasts ..

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Perfecto, thanks!

You meant if the metal impellers carved all the way through the case causing the pieces to fall in sump? It would have had intermix big time and mucho noise before that but interesting thought, though.

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I don't think that's what he meant.

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Correct, it's not. I was reading two forums at once ( BMW/Here) and thought we were talking about intermix here...whereas the intermix discussion was on an M3 thread I was reading at the time. I'll not make that mistake again. I look stupid and apparently Imo000 thinks I sit in a corner drooling on myself. OP good luck with your solution.

I don't think you are sitting in the corner.

Update: This is cringely's engine. I've dropped the oil pan and drain plug and found lots of debris. The oil has a gold glitter in it. I've collected and stored all the debris for further analysis. I should find more clues of where these pieces came from when I tear down the engine. 1. All the ferrous debris in the oil pan IMG_4146 (Large).jpg 2. 5 pieces of ferrous metal. They don't look like they are from the IMSB though IMG_4143 (Large).jpg 3. Another shot of the 5 pieces. IMG_4144 (Large).jpg 4. All non-ferrous debris. One small piece of aluminum and one piece of sealant. The rest look like chain pad material. IMG_4145 (Large).jpg 5. Another shot of the 5 piece IMG_4152 (Large).jpg 6. Another shot of the 5 piece IMG_4154 (Large).jpg 7. Another shot of the 5 piece IMG_4155 (Large).jpg 8. Magnetic drain plug 0307151245b (Large).jpg 9. Oil pan IMG_4140 (Large).jpg 10. Another shot of the 5 piece IMG_4147 (Large).jpg

Ahsai, is this your motor or the Op's? I'm a bit confused...

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It's cringely's engine which has the LN bearing. I bought his roller.

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Ah gotcha. It will be interesting to see what else you find. Are you planning on taking the LN bearing apart to see if you see any scoring in the races?

Yes, I plan to do a full tear down and hopefully find the cause of the failure. Will need to find time to drop the engine first though.

Thanks for posting the pictures, very interesting. Guess when you have material on the drain plug you know it:

Oh wow Ahsai! That's a lot of ferrous material and chain pad material. It will be interesting to see what you find went wrong. Keep us posted. Thanks.

That's a lot of debris. I'm also interested to see what was the MOF.

Yea, tons of shavings and fragments. I look forward to the teardown too. One thing interesting is out of the 5 largest ferrous pieces, one piece is not shiny. It looks like it just chipped off somewhere while the other pieces were clearly ground and mangled by some moving parts in the engine. BTW, I checked the oil filter port on the engine and found no shavings there so it looks like the oil filter bypass valve wasn't tripped so the shavings didn't get pass the oil filter. Will keep an eye on it when I tear it down. I think this engine could have been "saved" if it had been equipped with an IMS guardian. Look at the debris collected at the mag drain plug, the guardian would have warned the owner a lot earlier than this terminal stage. Granted the engine would still need a rebuild but at least the damage should have been a lot less if the engine had been stopped in time.

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Regading scoring races on the IMSB, my expectation is the wear will be concentrated on the bottom half of the inner race because the chains are constantly pulling the IMSB up toward the crankshaft, especially when the engine is running and the tensioners are all pumped up. The inner race is fixed to the engine casing while the outer race (fixed to the IMS) presses UP against the *****, which in turn press on the lower bottom of the inner race. I show a 5-chain here but the 3-chain 3.6 is similar junk.jpg

It will be interesting to see if there are any bits missing from either the IMS paddle or chain guides as well.

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Oh yea, no worries. I'm gonna check every inch of the engine.

That's a nice 996, I looked at it a couple days before you bought it. Too much metal in the filter for my plan. Good luck with the project!

Thanks and yes, I would need some luck

Thanks for posting the diagram for us students.

I'm learning here myself

Good stuff! I look forward to seeing what has gone kaflooie.

the 5 big ferrous pieces look a bit like gear teeth. Doesn't the 3.6 use Hyvo chain between the IMS and crank? (image from Ford)

Possible. They look like they had been ground multiple rounds for a while before they landed on the oil pan. I wonder if it's something broken inside the scavenger pumps.

Do you know if you're going to rebuild yet?

Not yet and it all depends on what are damaged e.g., if the crank is damaged, rebuild will be out of the question.

Jake never posted the photos from my motor's autopsy, but apparently even the crank was destroyed. Would have liked to have seen the pix.

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Wasn't that part of the deal?

I see chunks of piston and rod/ main bearings too.

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Thanks Jake assuming you are referring to my photos (cringely's engine).

Ashai, I know a guy called Martin and his alter ego Scott who may have an engine for you..................

So now you're helping him advertise here?

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Yeah. Maybe he was too bummed out that the entire engine was a pile o' scrap metal once he opened it up? I know that many here, not just me, really wanted to see that carnage. Oh well.

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Schnell, I have already explained that there is only one Martin, no alter egos. That other guy Scott or whatever his name is was wrongly accused of posting as me here on rl, but he's a separate person and we are not affiliated. He's also a smart guy who knows what he's talking about. It was really funny to read how everyone thought it was me and kept calling him Martin, he had absolutely no idea what you guys were talking about, lol. From what I know he works on transmissions in Georgia, I work on engines currently in Illinois

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I just love that American notion of competition - it is good for everyone ,especially grateful immigrants like Martin & me .

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Martin, you must be very busy but it would be great if you can stick around to offer advice/help to RL'ers in this forum for engine related issues. Will be good PR for your business too Yea, as I always say competition is good for consumers. It's a process of natural selection and only the fittest will survive.

Hopefully, you mean 'fittest' in the plural sense, Ahsa�.

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Oh yea, I meant the fittest shops.

I, for one, am very pleased you undertake this task given your well-earned credibility and integrity within RL and RTech folks. I'm sure we will all learn from it. I hope this engine turns out salvageable for you, eventhough it looks not promising at this stage.

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Thanks for your kind words and encouragement, man! Can't wait for the teardown...wish I had 36hrs a day...

Now stop posting and helping others and ... get to work !!! Martin

[QUOTE=Ahsai;12284696]Martin, you must be very busy but it would be great if you can stick around to offer advice/help to RL'ers in this forum for engine related issues. Will be good PR for your business too I'm always happy to help anyone with engine questions. I'm usually busy during the day and I race on the weekends whenever possible, that doesn't leave much time to check all treads on rl. If anyone needs immediate assistance just call me directly on my cell#[phone removed] or my wife Agnes@[phone removed]. Good luck with the rebuild!

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One bolt at a time......one bolt! That's how I work on my projects and sooner or later they are finished. If you can only do half an hour every now and then, just make sure you stick with it and the project will finish.

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Best advice that can be given... Its how I also approach big projects. Don't look at the big picture, break it down in several smaller projects chronologically planned out.

Yes guys, I've been working on it an hr here and there. Already drained all the coolant and engine oil and disconnected a few coolant hoses. Now just need to block out at least half a day to drop the engine.

Those pieces that appear to have sbeen chipped off are the rod bearings.

Ahsai: What's the latest on your quest?

Had planned to drop the engine today but looks like will have to wait till next weekend...

good luck

I didn't read all 10 pages of the thread but I decided to replace my blown 3.6 with a boxster 3.2. I will be posting a summary and feedback on new thread after my upcoming first weekend breaking it in. Qualification: This is for a dedicated Race Car but am sure this could easily be done for street car (even in CA) and easily pass smog.

I've read that to pass smog, you must replace your engine with a donor engine from the same or a newer model year. Did you find that to be true?

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Yes that is how the law reads, no you don't have to do that to pass smog test.

I think the only way the engine swap would become a Smog issue on a road car is if you were instructed to get it inspected by the Referee . That may happen if you got tagged as a "Gross Polluter". When the Referee reads the engine number, it could betray a non-permitted engine swap. The question is how would they read the engine number? If you keep all the under-body shields and covers on ,they would not be able to see the number without dismantling and removing parts.Are they allowed to do that -or can they require you bring it in for Testing with engine numbers exposed ? Eventually their computer may be smart enough to 'see' changes to the DME. But I doubt such technology would go back over a decade? So I guess the trick for a road car with a discreet M96-to-M96 engine swap is to make sure you always pass Smog Tests by a safe margin and keep all the covers on ?

The engine number is engraved on the engine casing close to the oil pan (driver side).

We swapped a lot of the parts from the 3.6 but the block was toast. I haven't posted much in recent years but if I can figure out how to put the pics up I will share of the 3.6 and then of the 3.2l. As mentioned I will be with Vali from ValiMotorsports this weekend and we will be shaking out the car. I am excited and nervous at the same time. The 3.6 was a beast in those Glorious 4+ laps. I never talk about "how fast" I go because it's more about lap times and cornering speed but 157mph was nothing I have ever experienced before and probably won't again with this 3.2l

On the smog...from my experience (probably 30+ smogs) I have never seen a tech check an engine block...my feeling is that numbers marching doesn't apply and we took the Dme back to stock. Car will never be a street car though as I have custom exhaust with no cats

I mention the engine number issue because others may be tempted to try swaps on a street car. Simple Smog Test is easy.Hence my encouragement to always get a pre-test and always make sure you pass with a generous margin. Once you are tagged ,your car is always under suspicion -particularly if your car has a profile of failure or tampering. When you have to go to the Referee it is a totally different level. You & your car are basically guilty until they decide you are innocent . The Referee seems to be a law unto themselves.

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I've heard on several occasions - but never understood - old-time racers say that their cars often felt amazing ("best power ever") right before they popped.

Unfortunately, many performance cars and other cars that are "often modified" are getting tagged for inspection at "STAR" stations. Some folks have said that their STAR inspection wasn't any more detailed than any other smog check, but both times I've gone, the tech has spent a decent amount of time crawling around under the car with an inspection mirror and flashlight. The days of me sneaking through inspection with long-tube headers and spark plug extenders on the Corvette appear to be over.

Updates: quite a bit of leak/grime on the IMSB. Will see better with the flywheel removed hoe the RMS looks. Looks like the leak has been going on for a while based on the layer of grime around the vicinity. This should have set the alarm long before the failure... The bearing does look like an LN unit. The clutch, pressure plate, and the flywheel are all in great shape. The flywheel springs in both directions smoothly and returns to the center strongly. It has some wire brush marks on it maybe from the tech cleaning it up. There's very little clutch dust inside the transmission housing. Looks like Cringly was very easy on the clutch IMG_4200 (Large).JPG 0614151727 (Large).jpg 0614151733a (Large).jpg 0614152149 (Large).jpg

Sweet. You got my appetite wet. Keep the updates coming.

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It's going slower than I'd like and the OCD in me kept me cleaning the parts as I took them off 0613151731 (Large).jpg 0613152015 (Large).jpg 0614151457 (Large).jpg

You think wirewheeling off the rust will make a difference. Unless you replate it, in 2 months it will look like it did before.

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Damn, I think you may have caught KK'itis. LOL

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I know and I'm gonna coat them with rust inhibitor. Even without that though, they will be in a much better shape than before. The ones on my '03 are never in this bad shape and I didn't even use rust inhibitor. Lol. Actually there's a practical side to this. I just waan keep the dust down in my garage to prepare for the rebuild if it happens. All the parts I take off have tons of dust on them and I need to store them in my garage.

To learn something, I sent the oil to Blackstone for UOA, TBN, and particle count tests. I've attached the report here. The aluminum is a whopping 34. Iron is 10 (since most already attached themselves to the LN magnetic drain plug) and copper is 13. TBN is 6.3 so the oil itself is still good. The particle count is ISO 18/17/15, which is quite high as far as I understand. I've also attached the photo of the actual oil here, which shows the glitter. UOA 6-18-2015 anonymous.pdf 0307151333a (Large).jpg

Man, if you went by their comments, nothing is really wrong with the engine! Of course, Jake has said that in the past. I think getting an analysis is a good thing, but I think you need to draw your on conclusions, especially if you have an idea of what metals go with what parts in the engine. BTW, that oil looks horrible!

What is that crema (white frothy stuff)?

The frothy stuff was because I shook the used oil jug before I took the photo. There's no antifreeze in the oil. Yea, I don't pay too much attention to the commentary but to be fair to them, the magnetic drain plug had picked up almost all the ferrous bits from the oil so they didn't show up as much in the UOA/particle count. Without the mag drain plug, I'm sure IRON would have been skyrocketing and the conclusion written could have been very different. The other thing to note is the particle count (18/17/15) is ~3 times as much as that of the oil on my healthy '03 (17/16/13) for all particle size ranges . One thing that surprised me was you would think with that much visible glitter in the oil, particle size >= 100 micron should show up in the report but no, it's zero. I wonder if the ">=100 micron" really has an upper bound on the size of the particle they can count (note human hair is about 50 micron in thickness).

Update: - All ignitions coils are cracked - All spark plugs are in good shape - Leak tested all cylinders at two positions, TDC (compression) and 180 degree before that (BDC). All cylinders have 4-8% leakage except cyl #4 at ~50%. - Borescoped all cylinders. All cylinders are scored. #4 is the worst with lots of pitting at the top 1" of the cylinder and also at mid stroke - No questions all cylinders and pistons are destroyed - Bank 1 scavenger pump destroyed by debris by ingesting and grinding some like I suspected from the grounded metal pieces found in the oil sump. - Bank 2 scavenger pump is in good shape except with a few slight scratches. Took the pumps apart and now know exactly how they are constructed and how they work. Next stop is the IMSB flange. Stay tuned... Bank 1 pump 0628151728a (Large).jpg 0628151729d (Large).jpg Bank 2 pump 0628152037b (Large).jpg

Pics of the spark plugs: 0627151135 (Large).jpg All the coils are cracked at almost the same places: 0627151143 (Large).jpg 0627151143a (Large).jpg 0627151143b (Large).jpg

So now that the engine is no good, what are the next steps? Any pics of the scoring and engine block?

The snapshot feature on my wifi borescope (using ipad as display) somehow didn't work and I ran out of hands to snap a photo while manipulating the probe. I will try to ****** some next time if I have a helper. Otherwise, we'll have pics for sure once the heads are off. We all knew the engine is bad from day 1 so no surprises there. The only thing that surprised me so far is the engine could still run in such a poor state. I want to see if I can identify the origin point of failure so I'll keep stripping it down. We may or may not be able to find it but hopefully most of us will learn something. We already know bank 1 scavenger pump ingested sizable metal bits, most likely picked up by the timing chain to the bank 1 head. Why all cylinders are scored? Maybe the piston jet sprays are all clogged that led to piston overheat? But then the main bearings should have been seized also. Will definitely check all the teeth on all the sprockets but from what we saw in the oil pan, those look like bearings. Next is to remove the IMSB flange and check the LN bearing's condition. Then remove the cam covers and check the cams and lifters.

Cylinders are scored from debris that was splashed into them, suspended in the waste oil from the rod bearings. Centrifugal force delivers this oil there in great quantities. I would not reuse the IMSB, it has been subjected to oil with debris suspended in it, and it has to have seen damage from that. I see lots of collateral damage, but I don't see the primary failure as of yet.

Appreciate your expert comments, Jake! I knew you would show up sooner or later That makes a lot of sense. I think the IMSB is the least of the problem (definitely not to be reused). Seeing how much the bank 1 scavenger pump is damaged, I wonder what the conditions of the cams and crankshaft are...

BTW, one thing I found interesting is the scavenger pump inlet and outlet ports just mate metal to metal to the engine case/cam cover and there are no seals in between. I think that's because there's not much pressure involved anyway. The pump is more for just moving the un-pressured oil from the cam cover back to the sump.

Thanks for posting, very interesting pictures indeed.

I don't understand why, with such low leakdown on 5 of 6 cylinders, you would condemn all of the cylinders and pistons. I'm here to learn BTW.

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You may have missed it. I borescoped every one of the cylinders and ALL of them are scored. You can see scratches along the stroke. The scratches are formed by the debris stuck between the pistons and the cylinder walls. So one of my conclusions is leak down test is worthless to id scored cylinders. Your best bet is borescope inspection. Interesting, right?

BTW, cam timing of both banks are at least a few degrees off (retarded). Durametric reported about -3 degrees @ crank but my actual measurement is closer to double of that. Maybe one of the reasons is the tensioners have leaked down after a few months. 0627151219 (Large).jpg

Updates: removed the bank 1 cam cover. It looks like it's been resealed from before and too much sealant was used. Note the old (stock) residual sealant on the mating surfaces. The excessive sealant almost clogged the cams ends. The cams and journals seem to be in good condition and the last pic shows the initial clean up attempt. Will have a lot more cleaning to do but I just want to put the cover back on in the meantime so no dust/debris can get into the cam housing. Also found a curved piece of broken metal like 3/8" long which looks like a segment broken off from a round part. 0705151803 (Large).jpg 0705151803a (Large).jpg 0705151812a (Large).jpg 0705151814 (Large).jpg 0705152226a (Large).jpg

Interesting project, thanks for the update. Do you have a pic of the broken chunk and the location it came off of?

I'll post a photo of that piece tonight. It's not clear where it came from and whether it's just a collateral damage. Next step is to remove the flywheel and the IMSB.

You are my hero. This is a great thread.

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Thanks, man! I'm really enjoying this. I hope people don't mind it going too slow. I enjoy taking my time to study all the details and design of each component and also solve each issue one by one as they pop up along the way.

I could have told you that.. The scored cylinders can be found with a leak down test IF you can park the piston rings just over the scored section of the cylinder and hold it there. Thats very hard to do. Most of the time a borescope won't even find initial damage, because it occurs below the area where the piston travels. For those situations, one must improvise.

Haha Jake, I'm sure you could have told me everything I've found when it's all said and done. Just like you, I love to collect data myself. It's quite fun when you are able to understand how things work by inspecting the parts and contemplating the design behind.

So this is the offending piece I found at the bottom of the cam cover, the oil inlet port of the scavenge pump in bank 1. It's broken off from something round. 0706151739.jpg 0706151739a.jpg 0706151740.jpg 0706151740b.jpg 0706151740c.jpg

BTW, its curvature seems to fit this 50mm diameter cap. Rod bearing? 0706151854.jpg

I was wondering if it could be from something curved, rather than round, like a piece of chain tensioner paddle?

What is that piece? I don't recall seeing that part when my 996 engine got torn down for its clutch, IMSB, RMS, chain tensioner paddle and lifter replacement.

Updates: I removed the IMSB last night and it's an LN classic single row retrofit IMSB. The whole bearing has been disintegrated. The outer race is half gone, the inner race is "fused" onto the stud and the flange. The ceramic ***** just fell out when I removed the bearing. I collected 6 ***** (missing 2. Must have fallen into the sump). They are so hard that despite all the destruction, there's only some pitting on two of them while the rest appear pristine. It's clear this is where most of the debris were shredded from. Basically, the crankshaft turns the IMS, which turns the ceramic ***** to grind down everything in their paths. It's likely the other piece I found came from here too as the diameters match. It's quite amazing the engine still ran with the IMSB ***** all loose. The bearing has mismatched codes. The flange says G2 and the stud says H2. The center 12-pt nut was very difficult to remove (recall spec is 7.5 ftlb). It's possible the installer had grossly over-tightened the center nut which shortened the life of the bearing. However, it's also possible that during the course of the bearing destruction, the IMS basically tightened the center nut naturally (will the ***** turning the center stud) due to its direction of rotation. It's also possible some initial debris got into an otherwise healthy bearing and set off the spiral of death. At this point, it's hard to say whether the IMSB is the source of failure or it's just a collateral damage. Like Jake said, the metals shredded are flung around by the timing chains on bank 1/IMS, which explains the heavy damage on the bank 1 scavenge pump as it's exposed to tons of debris. Note I had cleaned up the area before I removed the IMSB flange. Next steps are to strip the accessories/sensors from the engine and remove the heads. 0706152118b (Large).jpg 0706152139 (Large).jpg 0706152149 (Large).jpg 0706152149a (Large).jpg 0706152149c (Large).jpg 0706152150 (Large).jpg 0706152214 (Large).jpg 0706152216 (Large).jpg

BTW, the failed bearing in this thread also has G2 on the flange and H2 on the stud. Are the stud and flange suppose to have the same number? QC issues with this batch? https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...30k-miles.html Hopefully Jake can shed some light on this issue.

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Most likely from the IMS and IMSB.

Ahsai- Thanks for the continued education. I am trying to figure out what I am looking at in this picture: Is this the flange/IMS bearing inside race basically fused to it? So basically this flange with the bearing inside race and everything else on the bearing removed because it fell off due to bearing destruction? The following photo is courtesy of LNengineering website: I think that's what I'm looking at, but having never done one of these, I'm still figuring it out. Does the IMS shaft fit on the ID of the bearing or the OD? This confuses me because it appears the flange "shaft" fits into the ID of the bearing, so I don't know if the ID is the stationary component or the OD. I'm sure it's simple, but it still hasn't clicked in my brain. It appears the diameter of the flange is smaller than the ID of the bearing.

You have it right. The inner race is stationary, bolted down by the center stud to the flange, then to the engine case. The IMS fits onto the outer race of the bearing. The flange "shaft" fits into the ID of the bearing. Check out the nice CAD diagrams here http://www.cheetahonline.com/technic...rofit-upgrade/

Thanks! I almost feel smart right now! Actually after reading this post and the other post of the failed bearing, I'm really thinking about just leaving my 99 dual row bearing with 36K miles alone for now and continue to send out the oil for analysis and keep looking at the filter/magnetic drain plug. Continue posting! Love the progress!

Any thoughts on why it failed? Materials failure, mismatched components, improper installation, ??

I've lost track in other IMSB threads. Is the the first documented failure of an LN bearing? I've heard allegations before, but never seen one documented.

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I hope Jake would chime in. Your bearing had 25k miles on it so it's hard to imagine a botched installation will last that long. The G2/H2 mismatch may give us some clues but I have no idea how they should be numbered. I will keep tearing down the engine and document what I find along the way. See post #183. That's the first thread I saw with photos. That bearing had 30k miles on it.

Ok, looks like the date stamps on the shoulder bolt and the flange should match. "All boxes will have matching date stamps on the outside which will match the date stamp marked on both the flange and center should[er] bolt." http://imsretrofit.com/is-it-genuine/

Pay no attention to those stampings, they have nothing to do with graded components, or batches. Thats not mismatching at all. Its hard to say what happened here, because we don't know which series of events came first. Debris generated from failing cylinders can easily suspend in oil and take out the IMSB, or vice versa. Tons of variables here, and it takes exhaustive amounts of digging to determine which occurred first, and what was collateral damage. I do see some things that are adding up, especially the singe piece of debris thats curved. I'll help you. Email me.

Thanks Jake for the info and offer to help. I appreciate it. I totally agree with you about the unknown sequence of events at this point. I'll email you once I strip it down to the long block.

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Sounds like a plan. You are a class act, most people would be playing the victim, pointing fingers and making all sorts of drama. You'll be rewarded!

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I was thinking the exact same thing....

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Thanks guys. I can't really take the credit though as I'm not the original owner of this engine and didn't pay for the IMS retrofit, Cringely did. I'm just a curious George trying to learn everything about the M96 in general, the failure, and hopefully be able to diagnose the cause. I think Cringely's sentiment and questions are fair given the circumstances and I feel sorry for him. I'm not Jake so I may not be able to conclude the source of failure at the end but that doesn't matter. I'll just report what I find in an objective manner as long as people are interested. Thanks Jake for your help and I'm glad you're not upset or offended by my pics of the IMSB not in its best shape. I can imagine if someone did the same to my invention....It's easy to take photos and blame the bearing but given that all the cylinders are badly scored and pitted and who knows what else is damaged, it's way too early to draw any conclusion. Regardless, even if it is the IMSB, I would say given the number of LN bearings deployed (10+ thousands?) a few failures is not significant especially given all the variables involved and non-verifiable possibilities like botched installation, old debris before the retrofit, etc.

I am never upset with reality. I hate to see something that we put so much into fail, but it is what it is and it happens when the planets align in a negative manner. I'm a realist. That said, attitude is everything. I treat people and situations the way that they are presented. If someone is a dick to me, and acts like an entitled little punk, then I lose my mind. If someone is calm, collected and respectful, then they are rewarded for being that way. I treat them the way they treat me, and I'll do pretty much anything for them, even years later. Few people today fit the latter set of characteristics, and thats what will drive me to an early retirement. I go years at a time without any complaints or even slight conflicts, but if I have one it ruins my year. I've turned down two builds this week already, because I had red flags raised by the potential buyer. All it takes is just one sentence sometimes to tip me off. I've been doing this since the age of 13..... I have learned more about people than engines. We'll figure this one out... Come take my enthusiast hands on rebuild class in December. I'll give you a discount ;-0

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Thanks for the offer, Jake! I really admire your enthusiasm, skills, creativity and expertise. Funny you mentioned the class as I had been in contact with Kaley and had tried to get on the July class but it was full (best time of the yr for me to travel). I'm considering the future classes but away from the family from Tues to Sun is quite difficult...I kicked myself that I missed your classes in Costa Mesa last yr. I'll wait till I'm done tearing down the engine then I'll re-consider which classes to take. I'll take you up on your discount offer for sure

Sounds good. The December M96 102 class is the only enthusiast level class that I have for the rest of the year. We try hard to separate enthusiast from pros, because it cases conflicts. The pros don't want to learn the basics that the enthusiast must learn, and the enthusiasts don't want the pros to dominate the class. The December class is at about 60% capacity now :-)

Sorry guys, back to the regular channel I just want to point out a few things in this photo. You're looking at bank 1 cylinder #3, 2, 1 from left to right. This is bank 1 with the crank locked at Cyl #1 TDC overlap (as opposed to TDC compression) so the smaller half-moon at the cams' ends point toward the cam cover. The top is the intake cam and the bottom the exhaust cam. This is the position ready for IMSB retrofit and here's why. The chain on the left is driven by the IMS sprocket directly. To prevent timing jump, one needs to ensure the cams are not rotating during the retrofit. The valve lifters are all strongly sprung so they tend to push out (toward you in the photo) and in some cam positions, they will rotate the cams. As you can see in this position, all the lifters are off the cams meaning the pointed ends of the cam lobes are all pointing away from the lifters so the valves are all closed* and the lifters won't be able to rotate the cams. The locking tool further locks the cams to prevent them from rotating during the IMSB retrofit. The tool goes in only at this specific cam/crank position. Also note the pointed ends of the cam are 120 degrees apart starting from cyl #1, followed by 2 and 3 when rotating clockwise viewed from the crank pulley end (the right side of the photo) because they all follow the same cycles just 120 degrees after the other. *If you look very closely, the only exception is the exhaust valves (bottom) on cyl#1 (right most) are actually opened for about 1~2mm because the cam is not at its lowest point of its profile but still those lifters can't rotate the cam. Remember this is TDC cyl #1 overlap, not compression where the exhaust valves will be completely closed. Bank 2 is essentially similar in this position so the cams won't be rotated by the lifters. Hope the above explains why it's important to lock the bank 1 cams at this position when doing IMSB retrofit. 0705151803 (Large).jpg

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Sorry guys I have not chimed in sooner. Just as Jake has already said, I don't like to see failures let alone those involving one of our products. It's been hashed out on every forum at one time or another that some of our bearings have failed, but it's a very small fraction of the very large number sold and in service. And as with all mechanical things, there will always be failures - we're human and the parts are made by humans. What I do know for sure, defective bearings go right away and don't last even 30 days or 1000 miles. And that said, there have been so very few failures that we take every one seriously and try to investigate each and every failure so that we can get closer to understanding why they happen. Again, not to repeat Jake, but in cases like this when everyone stays calm and objective, it's hard for us not to want to help and make this less painful. At the very minimum, I'd like the ims and all the bits that can be found and send them out for analysis. And there are all the training and processes that Jake and I have come up with that certainly we can make sizable consideration to reduce the cost of the repairs and ensure something like this (or any other failure), occur again. Is there a serial number or a vin you can message me so I can see if we can track this installation down, if it was indeed registered? If you can't find the retrofit sticker anywhere, it's possible, however highly unlikely given the mileage, that the bearing was replaced after the original had already failed. Also, was the car fitted with a spin on oil filter adapter by chance? Keep the pictures coming and information flowing. With every failure, however painful and costly, we all learn greatly. Back to the discussion, to explain the date codes, we mark them with month/year identification so we know when each part was made. Bearings also now have laser etched dates in them as well, also so we know when they were made. It's common to have pieces that might have been made in different months. Only the IMS Solution assemblies are blueprinted and are sold as matched assemblies, since we verify the end play in each kit prior to packaging and also why we use tamper evident tape on those boxes.

Loving the direction this thread is taking.

Hi Charles, Thanks for chiming in and offering your help! I think we're heading in a great direction now with two Porsche uber experts chiming in to help. Totally understand anything mechanical can fail and in this case it's even way too early to condemn the bearing. I also thought if it was a botched installation, it should have failed pretty early and not after 25k+ miles but it's good to hear your confirmation. I'll PM you the VIN and the engine number. Automotive Excellence in San Diego did the retrofit. I can send in the IMS and bearing pieces once I tear down everything.The car does not have the spin on filter or any other aftermarket parts/mods except for a magnetic drain plug which was fit after 77.7k miles. A quick recap of the history of the car and how it happened from the OP (Cringely). I bought the car from him as a roller. "Photo of car is on the left, interior is clean, body nearly excellent due to partial respray after minor sideswipe, not much road rash since. Averages a bit above 24 mpg, 27+ hiway. Bought car 9/26/2012 with 77676 miles from Automotive Excellence in San Diego Artic silver, 18" alloy wheels w/colored crest caps, Xenon headlights, headlight washer, 12 speaker remote CD changer, floor mats, had seller install LN IMS bearings prior to delivery. Work done since (in addition to scheduled maintenance): Replaced headlight switch; Replaced vacuum reservoir, change-over valve and air injection shut-off valve, Replaced bank 1 cam position sensor, left turn signal light wiring harness & bulbs. Motor "died" 2 days ago (engine runs, but there are metal shards in oil/oil filter) at 100,400 miles. What I initially heard was sort of like rocks in hub caps. No noticeable loss of power. I thought it might be something like a water pump, so I drove it—cautiously—from my home in Carlsbad down to shop in SD. Got the bad news yesterday. No idea what caused the failure. Car is presently at ind. repair shop in Kearny Mesa area of San Diego. I probably won’t get down there for add’l photos (if requested) until next Thursday (Jan 22). Feel free to PM me if you want location or make offer." The engine seems original but it looks like the bank 1 cam cover has been off before (excessive sealant). Later I also learned some miles after the OP bought the car, small amount of metal (not sure if it's ferrous or not) was found in the filter during an oil change. A magnetic drain plug was then fitted. The first oil change after the drain plug did not reveal any metal in the filter. Then at 100k miles, the engine failed. The car has been well maintained and it's been using Total 5w-40 oil. I sent the used oil in to Blackstone and it came back with good 6.3 TBN with 34 aluminum 20 iron and 13 copper (the iron has been all picked up by the drain plug). Let me know if you have any questions or you want me to check anything specific on the engine and I could do that too. Appreciate your help!

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The 34 aluminum value was your cylinders....... Literally

Oh yea, and I can't believe how bad the top of the cylinder walls are. It's not just scoring, there're tons of pitting. I need to take some pics from the borescope and post them here. BTW, PM sent to you and Charles.

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Just pull the heads and then take the pics. The borescope pictures are always distorted

Updates: Here are the photos of cylinder #5 showing horizontally. The left is the top of the cylinder and the right side is toward the piston top. You can see at the cylinder top, there's heavy pitting, then as you move down the bore, they turn into scoring and some pitting mid-stroke. @Imre: yes, I'm going to pull the heads and strip the engine to the last bolt. These photos don't do the the borescope justice. The real-time video feed is super clear and has a MUCH higher resolution than these photos, which are like snapshots from a video. IMG_0786 (Large).PNG IMG_0788 (Large).PNG IMG_0790 (Large).PNG IMG_0794 (Large).PNG

I think the Doc in your avatar pic might get a better heartbeat if he put the stethoscope on the other side.

It makes no difference as the engine is dead

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Let's hope he didn't remove the engine from the front or all bets are off.

As others have said, this is great thread and getting even jucier.

BTW, the pitting is interesting because you would expect if it's done by bearing debris being dragged around by the piston/rings, there should straight scratch marks like scoring in mid-stroke but instead, it looks more like the face of the moon with NO scratch marks. Looks like some form of corrosion or cavitation. Could this be the original source of the debris?

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Could those small debris have found their way into the LN IMS bearing causing a havoc? The pitting on the 2 bearing ***** are similar in size shape.

I wonder if the pitting is a casting defect? Paul

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Interesting. Any chance coolant got in the cylinders? Cracked head, block with hairline fracture? You are a brave soul for going into this...

Maybe it is from detonation? When it happens to the top of a piston it looks like someone has been at it with an ice pick and hammer. That pitting looks like the top of pistons that have been subject to detonation. Perhaps a Lean mixture, Low octane (CA?) fuel + failed knock sensor could cause that?

@Rubik: yes as Jake had explained and that's what I'm suspecting now. Note the pitted part of the cylinder is at the very top where the piston rings normally don't travel to so the pitting cannot be caused by other debris such as IMSB debris. @p.van: not sure but I would expect that to show up way earlier than 100k miles/13yrs? @DBJoe: the coolant was very clean and there's no coolant in the oil per the UOA so definitely no intermix. I did observe there's trace amount of engine oil sucked into the cylinders (trace on the intake manifold risers). @Frank: I don't observe the same pitting on the top of any pistons. Lots of carbon but no pitting. The engine didn't burn any oil per crinigely and it's confirmed by the very clean and healthy gray tailpipes (not black).

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That would've been my initial guess too. That pitting looks almost as bad as this one.

Things have been quiet here....

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Blame Alpine. His photo scared everyone off

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The photo is tame compared to the carnage posted. It's a good thing JR desensitized a lot of us before with his pics first. Sorry but I'm able to wait for updates. "Good things come to those that wait." The question is now that the motor is gone, what's your future plan? Used motor, rebuilt one, 3.2 boxster, etc?

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Still plan on rebuilding the engine if the crank and cams are ok. Will need a new IMS for sure. Should have some time to take off the heads soon. If it can't be rebuilt, I may just sell the shell and keep the engine as a specimen

You can get some good money for the engine parts. Sell off whatever is still good.

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Yes, that's an option too.

Updates: - Bank 2 looks original (no excessive sealant) and it's in excellent condition - I took off both heads and found that all cylinders are scored on both the upper and lower sides of the cylinders. It turns out the pitting in the borescope photos before was actually dirty residual oil/carbon. Once wiped down, you can see the light scoring but you can't feel them with your finger tips - No debris in bank 2 cam cover scavenge pump pickup area (the lowest part of the head + cam cover) From the above, it's looking more like the IMSB broke down and its debris got flung around by the bank 1 timing chain. Some debris landed on the bank 1 cam cover bottom and got picked up by the bank 1 scavenge pump, destroying it in the process. No debris got into the main oil feed that feeds all the bearings. The oil pump picks up the oil and pushes it through the oil filter, then to the oil/coolant heat exchanger, then to the bearings. I flushed the heat exchanger and didn't find any debris. All the debris were caught in the filter. The larger pieces actually settle at the bottom of the sump and not even picked up. If any significant debris have got through (e.g., filter valve bypassed), I would expect all the bearings (cam, crank) damaged. Damn, a new IMS is $1,300+ and the cylinders will need to be re-sleeved too. A rebuild is gonna be like $10k just for the parts... 0727152157a (Large).jpg 0727152209 (Large).jpg 0727152051 (Large).jpg 0727152239 (Large).jpg 0728150025 (Large).jpg 0728150025a (Large).jpg 0728150012 (Large).jpg The heads got reassembled for storage. 0728150012a (Large).jpg

Is the cylinder scoring related to the IMSB breakdown?

I highly doubt that as I couldn't even feel them with my finger tips. It's not like chunks are falling off the cylinder walls.

That black gunk on the pistons (?) and that grey gunk on the valves (?) - is that normal?

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It's just the lighting. Everything is close to dark grey and black. The engine had 100k on it so carbon deposit is not too surprising. The marginal AOS didn't help either. I noticed quite a bit of oil in the AOS vent tubes.

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Yes.

Ahsai: Do you know enough now about the salvageability of this engine to make a way-ahead decision with this car?

Nope, not yet. Still need to split the case to check the most important parts - crankshaft and the crankshaft carrier.

The rest of the bearing debris at the bottom of the case (those larger pieces didn't make it to the oil sump). They concentrated on the crank pulley side as opposed to the IMSB side. Also found a broken IMS paddle, which IMHO is a collateral damage. Maybe Jake can chime in. Quite amazing the engine still ran. That broken piece was just held there by the IMS chain tensioner and it's grounded by the IMS timing chain. 0827152243b (Large).jpg 0827152333 (Large).jpg 0827152335 (Large).jpg 0827152334a (Large).jpg The cylinder walls are not bad at all. Just some very fine and light scratches. The piston and rings all look fine except with some matching light and fine scratches on the piston skirts. 0827152312 (Large).jpg

Thanks for sharing the gory details. I have just rebuilt mine so it is familiar territory. With the benefit of hindsight I find it difficult to justify the cost of rebuilding/rectifying a M96 because you don't know the damage until it is totally dismantled.inspected.measured,magnafluxed etc. .Just a few extra broken pieces/collateral damage makes the project financial nonsense compared to buying a 'good,used,running' engine. That said, it is fascinating if you have the time /$$ for that nerdy luxury :-). Once I added all the costs,the time,special tools and the uncertainty of how my repairs will hold up,Jake's engines seem an intelligent alternative to 'good,used,with warrenty ' engines. !YEMV

Be sure to buy the LN billet crankshaft tensioner paddle if your going to rebuild/resleeve, it's more robust.

You are correct but ...the tensioner paddle was collateral,not primary damage. My obsession was causes of primary damage. If a chunk of metal starts circulating (primary damage) even a paddle (or any other part) made from depleted Uranium won't save the engine. If I had bought every engine upgrade component available it would have ballooned the cost even more.And still I wouldn't have the knowledge/experience to be sure all the other details were correct. I obsessed about every detail and spent $ like a drunken sailor - still did not get the assurance of a warranty ! If we were discussing an engine for which every tech detail is available (say LT1 for example) -totally different story. Without that detail I was just a bungling fool. To give just one example - bore taper/ovality of the M96. What are the practical, real-world specs & where/how do you measure correctly ?Heck ,we can't even agree on what the best IMSB is ! But let's not ruin Ahsai's thread with that discussion :-).

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I'm of this mindset myself. Cost aside, just the savings in time and to be able to drive it sooner than later is also attractive going this route. Thanks for the update Ahsai. You will be one of the resident experts soon(especially after you take the class).

Totally agree it's costly to rebuild M96s properly. Use this engine as an example, so far these parts are broken and need to be replaced: - IMS (need to check more closely but it does look like the shaft's IMSB opening got milled as well) - IMSB - IMS tensioner paddle - One scavenge pump (gears totally destroyed) - Main oil pump (gears have some pitting) Must replace items: - Con rod bolts - Crank carrier bolts + head bolts - Head gaskets and engine gasket set While you're there items: - Piston rings - Rod bearings and main bearings - Valve seals - All timing chains All of the above is $4k-6k parts. You end up with a refreshed engine. Re-sleeving will add ~$5k. Reconditioning the heads maybe $1k? but then you end up with a decent rebuilt engine.

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Don't know about being an expert but will probably have more opinion to offer

I tend to agree with Schnell on the IMS paddle in this case. However, I think I've also read cases with it being the primary failure. Timing will shift and valves and pistons destroyed when the IMSB remains intact.

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Did you find the IMS tensioner paddle in place like in your photo? That wear button pad looks very thin.

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Yes and that's the amazing part. The tensioner held it in place and it's ground by the IMS chain so it became so thin. If it had fallen off, it probably would have taken the timing chains with it. Engine was still running. No valve or piston damages. The LN ceramic ***** are so tough that they still held the IMS more or less in place while the inner race was ground down gradually.

All ceramic bearing ***** are tough, not just the ones used in the LN bearing.

I finally split the case and found the rod bearings, the main bearings, and the crankshaft are all in GREAT shape and I found no other collateral damage. Can't imagine they have 100k miles on them! I think I can conclude IMHO that indeed the IMSB failed and it took out the following parts with it: - IMS - Bank 1 scavenge pump - Main oil pump - IMS tensioner paddle - IMS timing chain - Slight and fine scratches on both the pistons and the cylinder walls. More on cylinders #3 and #6, the ones closest to the IMSB. I believe the scratches are from some finer metal debris. Probably could have been avoided if Cringely had stopped driving the engine in time. I can also conclude the following: - the oil filter valve was NOT bypassed so no metal debris have passed the oil filter. Only the fine metal dust suspended in the oil that can't be removed by the filter remains in the oil (That's why the bearings are still fine). - the high aluminum content in the oil was from the ground up IMS paddle (by the steel IMS timing chain, and not shed from the cylinders). - ceramic ***** are one tough son of a bitch. In case of failure, they may still hold the IMS in place and give you enough warning to stop the engine. - when the IMSB fails, the heavier and bigger debris are settled at the bottom of the IMS and will not reach the oil pan. Only the small and medium size pieces made it to the oil pan. All debris got flung around and most of the damages are in the flywheel end of the engine. 0829152229b (Large).jpg 0830150049 (Large).jpg

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So just to recap, PO had LN bearing put in. Any signs of faulty installation? I forgot if PO had LN retrofit put in after he started to have any issues or not(noise or otherwise). Also were you able to closely examine the IMS bearing itself(particularly the race and cage themselves)?

Thanks for the update and great information.

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No sign of faulty installation I can tell plus it lasted 25k miles so probably it's not due to a botched installation. The PO (Cringely) put in the LN retrofit when he bought the car as a preventive maintenance. No issues were present at the time except it was mentioned there's a slight rattle noise from the engine that couldn't be traced. The rattle also went away after the retrofit. However, no qualifying inspection was done (inspect filter, drop oil pan, etc.) before the retrofit. The first oil change after the retrofit they found some metal pieces so a magnetic drain plug was fit. Then the next oil change they found no metal, then later on the engine failed. The IMSB autopsy was in post #182 with photos.

Its hard to say what happened first without having the parts to review extensively. That said, the engine appears to have had the cylinder scoring first, before the IMSB issue. this is why the scoring is more evident only on the one bank. if the IMSB led to the cylinder scoring, the damage would have been engine wide, not just on the most problematic bank of the engine. I also say this because the wear is concentrated at the mid- bore portion of the cylinder, not all the way up and down the bore. This is classic for the engine in question, due to rod angle and side loading at mid bore being highest due to the rod/ stroke ratio and pin height. Cylinder wear debris is very damaging to the IMSB and other items within the engine, as it is super light and easily is suspended in the oil, being delivered everywhere internally. Cylinder wear debris is also harmful, as it is very high silicon content aluminum. This also explains more about the UOA results. Failure assessment is forensic mechanic- ology and is difficult, to say the least.

Hi Jake, thanks for chiming in. Actually the piston and cylinder scratches (very light and fine at mid-bore) are on all 6 cylinders, not only limited to one bank. They are definitely worse on #3 and #6, on the IMSB side so that's why I thought the scoring is due to the IMSB debris.

Look at the case closely. You'll see that the IMSB is somewhat partitioned internally, which keeps the IMSB wear debris away from other internals being favored. remember, ALL the splash oil from this engine is delivered by the piston squirters and rod bearings as waste oil, and is fed there by the main bearings. The crank scraper keeps sump oil way down in the sump, and away from the cylinders, as splash oil. The oil that is fed from both these sources first passes through the filter/ housing. Think about those things for a while.

Just to clarify, the scratches on all the cylinder walls and pistons are very very light (far from catching finger nails). The photos make them look much worse than in real-life.

That means nothing to me. :-)

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Yes, Jake, I also noticed that design while examining the IMS, the black plastic oil baffle below it with gaskets, and the residual debris. So are you saying the the oil that passes the squirters (same oil that goes to the crank bearings) is already filtered so there wouldn't be any larger debris that could cause scoring on the cylinders and pistons? In other words, any scoring CANNOT be due to oil laden with fine metal debris?

Never say never, BUT the oil doesn't splash there. It is delivered there. I bet the oil that was material laden bypasses the filter due to the stupidest oil filter housing design in the world. Heat the oil filter housing to 220* and see how much spring tension you can measure on the bypass spring. These are getting old and causing all sorts of issues, but no one listens. I quit caring a long time ago.

I guess that this is the first example of performing preventative maintainence and having it bite you on the backside. I really thought I was being smart in replacing the IMS.

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Not the first time, and not the last. We have tipped the 500 mark on preventative packages, and we still have not had a single post- process failure. This dates back to 2007 when I did the very first retrofit. Nothing is conclusive, and no one will ever know what failed first, the chicken, or the egg.

Ahsai, The only thing certain in life is taxes and death. We can try our best, but you can't make a mechanical system 100% fail-safe - that is especially the case with the M96 engine. Everything said, just give LN a call. The least we can do is replace your IMS and get your old one back (along with all the bits for analysis) and we'll give you additional consideration on internal upgrades, since it appears you were well under way to needing Nickies. The rattle you described was an early cylinder failure - fresh, thicker oil quieted it up. The cylinder bore material is very hard - it eats carbide tooling like crazy when machining blocks. Just ask for John, he'll take good care. I'll give him a heads up you'll be calling.

Absolutely amazing generosity.

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Jake, with your explanation of cylinder squirter and score in mid-bore I agree it's very difficult if not impossible to conclude which happened first. Charles, thanks a lot for your offer and it's great to know LN stands behind their products (I never doubted that btw)! I'm actually considering my rebuild/refresh options and definitely thinking about about getting Nickies from LN. I keep all the parts of the engine so I can definitely send in the IMSB and the IMS, maybe with the broken IMS paddle as well. I'll contact John soon. I'll be attending Jake's engine rebuilding school in Dec so reassembly should not be a problem

Guys, see what happens when someone approaches a bad situation with respect and civility? JohnCK2014 needs to take some forum etiquette lessons from Ahsai.

Jake, I wonder if it should be strongly recommended that the spin-on filter and mag drain plug are "must have" items to go with the LN bearing? The extra cost is not that much but the combo greatly reduces the chance of non-IMSB debris taking out the bearing. It should give the owner enough advance warning if debris are found on the mag drain plug and/or the oil filter. At least it will be cheaper to repair/rebuild the engine.

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They have always been highly encouraged. I always instruct the techs in my classes to do this, and why. But, at the end of the day, buyers just think that they are being uphold on something and they won't buy it. I developed the Spin On Filter Adaptor solely for this purpose, but of course, it was a spin off (pun) of the IMS Solution invention.

Just adding an FYI I figured out and has been mentioned in passing on other threads. Too put it simply, its not the spin on adapter that actually makes the difference. It's taking the oil bypass (which all filters have) and moving it from the bottom of the filter (where the OEM one lies) to the top of the filter (where the recommended Napa filter bypass is) so that when unfiltered oil is circulated, its not pulling from the bottom of the canister. For example the Napa filter and the mobil 1 filter have the bypass at the top, but the fram filters have the bypass at the bottom. Feel free to correct this if I am incorrect.

BTW, now that I've held the IMS in my hand I understand why its mass (significant) would warrant thrust control on the IMSB (when the car accelerates and decelerates). I also see how skinny that hex oil pump drive and the IMS paddle are.

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Thrust is what kills these bearings more than anything. Don't listen to some guy that lost his job, and started selling parts online, that tells you anything else. The IMS Solution is the only product on the market that offers both radial, and longitudinal support of the IMS assembly.

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The filter used in the IMS Solution is a Napa Gold 1348 (Wix 51348) and does have a bypass, but a higher pressure one. Secondly, the filter gets thrown away every time, so the bypass spring doesn't loose tension like the factory one does over time. Some recommend replacing the housing every other oil change for that reason. The filter used in the normal spin on oil filter adapter, or spofa for short as we call it, uses a Napa Gold 1042 (Wix 51042), which does not have any bypass whatsoever and is full flow (robbed from a 97-04 Corvette).

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http://www.napafilters.com/do-it-you.../#!prettyPhoto Click on the video for the napa gold filter. It shows a bypass. Is the 1042 different from the other napa gold filters?

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Some filters have bypasses, others do not. They even offer different pressure bypasses as well. Just depends on the application and filter part number.

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Right, and agree with the benefits with the Gold line..but look what Napa appears to have done with their Platinum line- http://www.napafilters.com/filters/o...prettyPhoto/0/

The platinum filters are excellent as well. Identical in construction to the K&N (without the nut on the end) and the Royal Purple filters. Probably all made in the same plant. I'd use the platinum filter for track use since the pleats are wire backed and very well supported for extra surge protection.

What is the # for the Napa Platinum?

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Last time we had LN failure you said it was misalignment inside the motor or incorrect installation. Now it's a thrust issue, very interesting... In the meantime, I have a whole drawer of this (LN) crap, either loose or already in pieces removed from my customer's engines. I even stopped documenting it and posting about it online because it just doesn't make sense. People still buy these parts which only brings me more customers

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You know someone is gonna wanna see pics. I foresee another 10 pages of stuff happening soon.

Martin, Just to clarify, Jake's opinion on this one is actually the cylinder material from scoring got into the oil, which killed the bearing. Photos in post #225. The thrust issue was something I mentioned later, unrelated to the failure.

If you read/search the posts there is plenty of references to the thrust issue.Specifically it relates to the use of bearings not designed to tolerate substantial thrust loads. Nobody ever said there was just a single issue that caused IMSB failure.I wish it was that simple.

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Charles, what I was looking at in their rendition showed the bypass at the bottom of the canister, away from the threaded inlet, although the filter is drawn inverted. Opposite to the arrangement of the Gold line.

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Let's get one thing straight. You sold an engine to someone that had a bearing failure. Yes, it was one of our bearings. I never disagreed about that. You used the failure to further your own interests and agenda and that blew up in your face. We were never given a chance to make good on any part of that engine or ims bearing as it was more important to lift yourself up. You were kicked off a forum over it too and had to buy your way back in to try to sell more engines. Unless I am given the chance to make good on a customer's complaint, you have no right to complain or take issue with my product, service, or anything else for that matter.

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b u l l s h i t

He was kicked off because he wasn't a paying vendor, nothing more or is my memory off?

The Napa platinum rendering shows the bypass at the bottom. But the rendering for the gold 1042 says the bypass is at the top. But as Charles has said, the 1042 has no bypass. And the Napa website shows none under filter bypass pressure for the gold 1042. So I would assume the platinum would also have no bypass. But I can't find a part number. When I look for the corvette there is no platinum listed.

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They to offer a platinum, I have run it to evaluate it against the Gold for both the 1042 and 1348 (IMS Solution filter).

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IIRC, the Platinum filter is NAPA 41042.

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I remember somewhere in this forum that someone stated that the Platinum does not flow as well as the gold in certain conditions due to the increase efficiency of filtration.

Ahsai, what are you doing with the car/engine? Seem like my car is heading in the same direction... I had the iron sludge on my drain plug and thin flakes of ferrous shavings in the oil filter... $6-15K in repair for the engine on a $12K car isn't worth it. But I am intrigued about tearing it down and fixing it myself. I did it with a 944 with bent valves. But if I need to replace Camshafts at $1K a piece it's going to get too pricey too fast... Hmmm

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Ahsai, I've never heard of or seen any IMS bearing fail due to engine scoring. Raby and Navarro will keep coming up with new failure causes so they won't have to admit their product fails. Between my 2 locations, we take apart a few engines with scoring issues a month. None of those engines had damaged IMS bearing. The only extreme case I've seen here belonged to our local customer, he drove his car with scoring problem to work everyday. Car still ran but catalytic converters were clogged with oil which was passing through the pistons. He had a misfire on all 3 cylinders, engine was barely turning, he still drove it everyday. Smoke behind him was so bad you couldn't see his car if you were behind him. After I personally took this engine apart, it was absolutely the worst scoring case I've seen in my life, IMS bearing was untouched. There was NOTHING wrong with it, not even loose! It's impossible for scoring to cause IMS bearing failure. Once again, they will both think of any reason not to admit their product is the cause of failure. People can keep buying it for $800, it only gives me more work

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Anything within an engine that wears created debris. This debris travels to every internally lubricated part of the engine; not just the IMSB. Even the most inexperienced person in the room knows this.

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Charles, I hoped you might have learned something by now. You should keep your less than intelligent comments to yourself. I stopped posting about your bearings publicly because I have no interest in it. It only gives me more work because I rebuild engines with LN bearings. I don't care about promoting my bearings, it's only a tiny % of my business. Unlike you, where you make your living selling those overpriced bearings which are not worth more than $100. Anyone can buy a $40 Japanese bearing and put SKF ceramic ***** in it. It's not a problem, anyone can do it. You have mentioned once that nobody can get those ceramic *****, but that is not true. SKF in Poland can bring me a whole truck of them, they have seen your ceramic ***** and said it's not an issue. If I wanted to sell them, I would have done it a long time ago. Your customers end up repairing their engines for 11,000 after your product fails. I have observed IMS sales recently and I can see a decline in sales for ball bearings, where roller bearings sales have gone up. Prepare yourself for even more failures, all the kits people installed will only get more miles on them and start failing more often. Same thing will happen to overprised nicasil resleeved blocks. I also know which company you send them to, if you keep commenting too much about me I will post the company publicly so people will save money and go directly to them. You also made yourself look like an *** after you told you know who not to service my cylinder heads if he wants your business. The only outcome from that was him making less money. I have found another company in Europe which has really amazing prices and same quality products. You both came up with rnd engines trying to kill my business, but I guess you have little luck with that so far. Guys from SSF called me up trying to get my business and told me you can count the sales with one hand. I'm afraid you won't be able to compete with me unless you lower your prices by half Good luck Charles, you're going to need it -Martin Biernacki

Marty....amazing how your English has improved. Good for you! Gotta ask...with those truck loads of bearings you can get does the same truck include all the motors from your theft ring? America what a country!

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/750x704/image_96529a3d89d012554f21dd37c7d59644615c90c1.jpg

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LOL, I have a translator hired full time If you laugh at my English, maybe you could learn some polish and try to impress me? I also speak a little bit of Russian and German. How about you? Before I came to US, I visited a lot of places, it's good to travel, it really teaches you a lot. I recommend it to everyone, it really widens your horizons. Before accusing me of having anything to do with stealing, come to my shop and take a look at how many cars we purchase from auctions. All of our engines are removed from documented cars with a vin# and mileage. As a matter of fact, I just purchased 2 more today, one in Atlanta, close to your friend Do you really think I would sell stolen motors in this police country?

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Look familiar? http://m.deseretnews.com/article/212....google.com%2F pocałuj mnie w dupę amerykańskiej

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That story is from 1992 you arrogant American.

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Google translate doesn't always translate correctly There are grammar errors, should have been: pocaluj mnie w moja amerykanska dupe. But what else could I have expected an American from Indiana to say to me in Polish other than this. Maybe you ate too much of that gmo corn from Indiana That article talks about 1990's, that's 25 years ago man! Car theft happens all over the world, in America too. BTW, maybe you should look into your family tree, America was created by immigrants. The only red blooded Americans were Indians which were killed by the settlers.

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Ouch.......I'm originally from Milwaukee so I prefer a brat over a corn cob any day. I do remember in one of your posts you boast about a polish supply chain. Why don't explain about the chain? You seem to come from out of the blue and tout your version of an IMS fix. Now you don't care to sell it....makes no sense. Ashai sorry this thread went South.

Well the arguing really doesn't help solve the problems. I think we all can agree that the M96 was an ill conceived POS from Porsche prone to many types of failures. I think we can also agree that JR knows more about said engine than anyone else alive or dead so all would be wise to listen to what he says about it rather than point fingers at those that had nothing to do with designing the said POS in the first place.

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I do get a lot of cores from Poland, parts too. Not sure if you realize that Poland is in European Union, all borders are open, Polish people speak English. Germans, Italians, Austrians, French and others buy and sell parts from/to Poland. The market has changed quite a bit since 1990's, people buy and sell things all over Europe. Same thing here in US, I don't know how else could I explain it to you. We have customers all over the world, just today I was dealing with customers from Turkey and Italy. They either need engines or want to sell their car with broken engine. Having 2 locations and connections all over the world helps us service clients all over the globe.

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That's out of line and irrelevant no need to stir the crap even more

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mhariush, I'm also pondering the same. My current estimate is $5-6k engine parts, $5k cylinder resleeving, $1k reconditioning the heads and machine works. My cams and crankshaft appear to be good (will send them to a machine shop to verify). The parts are very expensive on this engine so it doesn't make much economcal sense to rebuild it on a higher mileage/older car.

Martin, I can imagine scored cylinders will not affect a stock imsb as much as an open ball bearing, which is more suceptible to debris. When it's hard to say in this case which is the culprit, at least that's a posibility. Guys, could we refocus back on technical issues without bringing any personal attack or other business issues?

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Agreed and like I said sorry it went South. Just tired of this guy.

I would think for a street car , cast cylinder sleeves would be an option with stock pistons and aftermarket piston rings .That would put a big dent in the cost .Worth at least a phone call to LA sleeve and find out their experiences with that combination .

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With scoring you have tiny aluminum pieces which are like dust. OEM bearing does get oil inside anyway, the rubber doesn't seal that well. Every oem bearing has oil inside which gets in there through the shaft. Rubber only protects it from large pieces of metal. Aluminum dust gets in there with oil all the time. I've seen it many times, I've also seen untouched roller bearing installed in motor with scoring problem. It doesn't help to have aluminum dust inside your engine of course, but aluminum dust from scoring is not not big enough to damage IMS bearing in such a quick time frame.

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LA Sleeve offers cast sleeves, as does QSC (china) for the M96. It's in both their catalogs. We have fixed countless blocks having had both installed. Some we've even had to reject due to damage caused by installation of these sleeves. I won't lie. Yes, our process is expensive and there are cheaper ways to fix engines. It's a Porsche. And the process is proven with probably about 1500 engines sleeved to date with a 100% success rate and long term positive results.

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Martin, remember, you started this, yet again. Post the company that does your sleeving or anyone elses sleeving, I don't care. It's very easy to find who else sleeves M96 engines. Google is a wonderful tool. I just posted who makes the sleeves for the M96 in fact. It's no secret. Millennium Technologies has been our contractor since we started back in 2002. I don't hide that fact. Every block and up until recently, every set of aircooled cylinders came in a box from Millennium Technologies. I have a very long standing relationship with them and use them exclusively because they are the best. Yes, they will plate blocks directly and do so for other shops. That does not address cylinder strength issues and oversizes done without sleeving will fail if direct plating is applied. And since you think I care if you publish where my bearings and the bearings for SSF and Pelican for that matter come from, CBR Bearing out of California does them. Again, a few strategically placed phone calls and you can find out who does them since he's the best in the country. It's no secret. If you ask for a quality ceramic bearing from Motion Industries or any other supplier like that, they buy them from him. Other competitors have called them for bearings and didn't want to pay what I pay for them, so they went elsewhere. Cost of product has been discussed on other forums at great length. Wholesalers have their cut, shops have their cut, and I have overhead. I'm not a one man shop like I was ten years ago. RND Engines was not created to compete with you. It wasn't even a consideration in my book. Porsche ceased offering replacement engines and the need for a superior replacement engine that would be readily available with a fast and fair core evaluation process (which Porsche lacked.) Yes, sales were slow to start but are moving along now that they have figured out how to sell engines. It's very different from other consumables these cars need and have their own set of logistics to deal with. I never once said I would not do business with Wally if he continued to do work for you. He does stuff for me personally like for our Lemons car we run together but otherwise we are not reselling head work from any supplier. I also use Len Hoffman in GA as well for all our 914 heads we stock and sell. To be clear, Wally made that decision on his own not to do heads for you regardless of my opinion of you and how your carry out your own business. Wally can do work for anyone he likes. He is his own man, with his own business, and can make his own educated decisions. I respect Wally for the business he has created and seek his knowledge, expertise, and opinion as I value it greatly as a friend and colleague. I would ask you keep him out of this discussion as there was no reason to bring him into this. This industry is small enough we can all co-exist happily regardless of what we think about each other. I for one have more important things to do than defend my credibility or that of the companies and people I deal with. How you choose to proceed is completely up to you.

Quotes source post: 12573682

I guess I don't understand what's unique about the Porsche block .Sleeving aluminum blocks has been done long before nickies .When you say countless was it because of bad machining or the sleeves themselves . There is no question you offer a superior product the issue is it's a street 996 not a 993 or earlier on a very flat price trajectory .

Quotes source post: 12573805

Many of the sleeving issues stem from the inadequacies of the M96/M97 block castings themselves. If the block was more substantial like a 944 block, a steel sleeve works just fine, as has been done for a long, long time.

No, it "gets there" THROUGH toe OEM bearing! Thats part of Stage II IMSB failure. The shaft is otherwise fully sealed. Ha! Its the tiny pieces that suspend in oil and do the biggest damage to ALL internally lubricated components. I expected that Martin would know these fundamentals, since most enthusiast do. Martin sure is concerned with what we do, and how we do it. Most like him are, as they are always trying to catch up.

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Martin, thanks for the explanation and appreciate that you stay on technical discussion. The way I see it is good technical info/discussion will always add to one's credibility and will win more customers/supporters in the long run. I can definitely see the logic in your explanation. Fine debris is not good for sure but I think how much it can make the other parts fail is the critical question. Whether the oil filter bypass valve was tripped is another big factor. It may lead to much larger debris being circulated.

Quotes source post: 12573853

Yes, you're right, I meant that oil gets into the shaft through oem bearing, not through the shaft. Everybody knows it, it was just a wrong expression on my end which created misunderstanding. Since you claim the dust is supposed to make the biggest damage, how would you explain the fact that every single engine with scoring problem and oem bearing I take apart, the bearing is in perfect condition every time. Even in extreme scoring cases. Other engines with LN bearing and no scoring problem already have first signs of being loose. Inner and outer races are beginning to wear. If you would like to see pictures just let me know. I mentioned before that if someone would like to solve ims issue they should get your ims solution or roller bearing. Especially in case of single row bearings. We both know single row ln bearings fail, dual row not so much. If you both admitted this design is weak we wouldn't have this conversation. Customer always hears it's either wrong installation, misalignment, scoring or any other internal issue which supposedly led to ims failure.

Quotes source post: 12573753

I also agree MBM and LN/F6/RND are not serving the same market segment. On older and higher mileage models which are under 20k even with a running engine, I think most are looking for a $10-15k solution with reasonable reliability (say another 100k miles on the engine so the car will be like 200k total). The challenge though is how to achieve that within budget and yet still make the engine robust enough. Whoever find that formula will be very successful. On the other hand, if the cheaper rebuilt engines keep blowing up, ppl will also notice. So yea, no argument is necessary since the market will play out and speak for itself in the long run. Of course there are plenty of people who want the best in their cars and money is no object. It's evident that F6 is booked for year+.

After-market intermediate shaft bearings are snake oil. Hopefully anyone wading thru this abortion of a thread thus far would come to that realization on his or her own. Normally I don't post on this forum anymore ... after a thread like this it should be obvious why. The people that make money selling these after-market monkey parts flog Rennlist relentlessly. But when you start bashing the guy based on his English? Poor form, gentlemen, poor form.

Quotes source post: 12573682

This is why I only use one place in Poland for resleeving. They use steel sleeve technology, which has worked for me for all these years. I have seen many resleeved blocks here in US, and none of them were done right. I can agree with you for once Our partner in Poland rents his Porsches for track racing. All his engines have steel cylinders. When he takes them apart to refresh the motors every now and then, steel sleeves look like new every time. This company also resleeves blocks and rebuilds engines for customers in Russia, where people drive their cars all year long in extreme conditions and temperatures. This technology solves scoring and d chunk issues for good. Europeans used to resleeve their blocks with nicasil, they drive their cars all year long in cold temps and put a lot more miles than American owners. Nickes would peel after long wear and tear, and eventually would lead to engine damage. This is why every knowledgeable shop in Europe uses steel sleeve technology. Just look on German Ebay and you will see how many shops advertise steel technology. I'm afraid that after long wear and tear same thing will happen to your nickes what happened with your single row bearings. The more you drive it the more it fails. What I'm offering my customers is a product that will not break no matter how many miles they drive and in which conditions.

Martin, using Cringely's engine as an example with photos here https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l#post12466819 Similar scoring is found on both the load bearing and non-load bearing side on ALL 6 cylinders with scoring worse on the ones closer to the IMSB end. What will it cost to fix the cylinders? The skirt coating on the stock pistons are also pitted a bit, are new pistons needed too? Thanks.

Quotes source posts: 12574334, 12466819

After looking at these pics, I'm sure scoring has not caused this imsb to fail. Typical scoring is usually on passenger side on cylinders 4-6 on upper side of cylinders. It's caused by not enough oil getting all the way up there because crank shaft turns to the right side (clockwise) lubricating better on driver side cylinders 1-3. It's caused by low oil level, not changing oil often enough, low temps, too high temp (pistons expand). Every single engine has scoring on cylinders 4-6 because of that. Cylinders 1-3 are usually in good condition if you have a scoring problem. Even if they're scored in the upper part, the lower part is mostly untouched. As I mentioned before, even in extreme scoring cases on top of pistons it wouldn't cause imsb damage. These pics clearly show that these scratches (which I wouldn't call scoring) were caused by something getting inside the engine. In my opinion the bearing started to shed metal and little pieces of metal shavings from races got into pistons and caused these scratches. Bearing must have been loose and engine still ran until bearing finally broke and engine stopped. It's exactly the same when oem bearing failure happens. To me it's clear that another LN bearing caused engine failure. All you need is a little imagination and logical thinking to understand the series of events. Some people believe in different things and different "Gods", there is nothing I can do about it...It's not the first time and certainly not the last time LN bearing failed. If you say that there is still coating on pistons but it's scratched, it indicates pieces of ims getting inside there and causing the damage. Usually, in case of real scoring the coating is worn out and aluminum grinds against aluminum. The scratches in this motor were caused by debris from IMSB getting inside. Your pistons are scratched more on the bottom because there is more oil with debris in this area. I see it all the time with oem or ln bearings, cylinders get scratched the same way as yours. I always think logically and tell the truth, I don't believe in other's theories. You said it's damaged more by IMSB, it would make sense since the debris from IMS got there first and made the most damage. As far as the resleeving cost, I have attached sample pics, and if you're interested in doing both sides, all 6 cylinders cost is $3200, shipping to Poland included. UPS will pick up the package and drop it off when it's ready. A set of specially fitted piston rings is included in this cost.

Quotes source post: 12574290

Martin, now you're diverting the subject to our cylinders. I have made and sold thousands of sets of aircooled cylinders and our water cooled liner technology is based upon proven and tested alloys and the best platers in the US, again with thousands of blocks sleeved for both street and race. Strict testing is done to control adhesion issues and the platers give a lifetime warranty on adhesion. Nikasil has never been an issue when done right and we've never had a single adhesion problem ever. Saying there will be as more people drive their cars is ludicrous. Our engines have been raced and there are cars out there with over 100,000 miles on our cylinders, both aircooled and watercooled. The technology is proven. I challenge you to find a single forum thread about a problem with any of our cylinders whatsoever. You won't find one because they don't exist. You'll know you've built enough engines or sold enough ims bearings once you have a few failures. It's a matter of numbers. It's impossible to prevent 100% of failures. It's a mechanical system and I have made this point thoroughly in past discussions with you and others. No one is trying to hide anything here.

Martin, Why do you retain the parent material on the water jacket side of the cylinder? The differences between these "sleeves" and an LN "cylinder" that does not retain any of the uppermost parent material is a huge difference. This is especially true considering larger than stock bore sizes, where they are limited by the parent material more than anything.

Quotes source post: 12574876

The cylinders pictured are stock 3.6l with oem pistons, not bigger bore.

Quotes source post: 12574909

I could tell what they were. You didn't answer my question.

Quotes source post: 12574860

See, this is what I mean. I just want you guys to admit that your single row design has faults and people shouldn't rely on it. I cannot stand it when you both know it fails and you still brainwash people that something else has caused the failure. That's all I'm asking for. If you admit it's not perfect, will you still recommend it to people? Don't you think it would be fair to the customer to stop selling them and recommend other options? You have another great option you can sell-ims solution.

Quotes source post: 12574856

Thanks for the info so the steel sleeves are not much cheaper than Nickies then? The Nickies are $3,330 from LN here Rings and pistons not included in this price though. I've attached some photos of the piston skirts here. 0827152312a (Large).jpg 0827152313b (Large).jpg

Quotes source post: 12574876

So Jake, without the parent material, how do the LN cylinders attached to the engine case and its webbing?

Quotes source post: 12574856

Your solution is a straight sleeve pressed into the stock cylinder. That does not address the weaknesses of the original cylinder which is holding the cylinder in place. Tell me what happens when the parent metal D-chunks? I will. Cylinder looses support AND engine will blow a head gasket. I've fixed blocks that have been sleeved like this before, run with stock pistons and with JEs, resulting in scoring and the parent metal cracking, which I've seen go as far as to crack the casting at the base of the water jacket. I can't find the photos right this minute, but I had another with a blown head gasket as well when the parent metal failed at the top of the deck, and have documented these failures extensively over the years. Yes, cylinders 4-6 score the worst but after that, you are completely off base. There is an oil squirter dumping plenty of oil on those cylinders. Issue stems from too tight a clearance with a forged piston and improper offsets. Only Porsche makes a piston with offset pins with one side correct and the other offset the wrong direction. It's taken years, but they have finally corrected the offsets in the latest generation of DFI engines.

Quotes source post: 12574920

Because the cylinder sleeves are as thick as you see in the pics, this is why the mother material is there. Why are you asking? Trying to find a problem which is not there? Engines with these sleeves run for 500,000km or more, so 100,000 miles on ln's nickies don't even come close. Have you ever seen nickies in an engine designed for large mileage?

Quotes source post: 12574953

We leave just enough of the parent metal on the crankcase side to center the new stepped aluminum nikasil sleeve. When we go really big, we actually replace all the old parent metal by laser welding new parent metal into the block on the crankcase side.

Interesting information Even better when you guys are civil with each other You all get an Attaboy

Quotes source post: 12575007

Ah I see. That makes sense. It's hard to see how they join from the online photos and thanks for explaining. BTW, the steel sleeve photos you show have paper thin parent material left to support the sleeve. Not hard to imagine why it failed.

Quotes source post: 12575018

+996

Quotes source post: 12574923

I've already said time and time again to you that yes, we have had a failure. Yes, some bearings fail. We offer other bearings for the single row IMS and anyone who call in, we will explain the offerings, starting with the Single Row Pro and IMS Solution. The only reason we still offer the Classic Single Row is that most have had excellent results with it and do not want to change what works, even though in later years we have come out with new, better products that took years to develop. We do our best to educate on the options - it's up to the consumer to make the decision. None of my sales staff nor myself will push anything upon anyone. It is our job to educate and let the educated consumer make their own choice.

Quotes source post: 12574997

So because steel sleeves work in a diesel tractor engine, small block Chevy, or some other application, by definition they will work in a Porsche? By that same logic all nikasil bore engines failure due to peeling nikasil. How about you ask Mahle and Porsche what they have to say about that?

Not to divert too much but the oil squirters are at the top of each main bearing?

Quotes source post: 12575007

You are wrong about steel sleeves, the way they are made there is no chance for d chunk again. D chunk happens when aluminum expands, so how can you get d chunk on a steel cylinder? It's logical when you make something out of one piece of material it's more durable and better quality than having something welded and adding nicasil to it. All cars are made to break today, take a look at older Mercedes cars from 1980's, you will see what I mean. These cars ran for thousands of miles and engines were unbreakable. You will not see any nicasil inside of those. These cars had steel cylinders pressed into steel or aluminum cases, depending on the model. They only replaced it because after a million km they were used up, not broken! Today everything is supposed to be light, cheap and give results at the expense of durability. Compare a semi truck motor made with old school steel which runs a million miles before overhaul to a BMW motorcycle I race. My motorcycle engine has 1000cc's, 220hp and it's made from light aluminum, unfortunately it only lasts 5000 miles on the track, that's it. Steel cylinders have much better logetivity compared to nickies. Time will tell when you start getting more miles on those engines. Our sleeves have been tested in extreme conditions (like Moscow) in Europe for years. FYI, maybe you don't realize this but in Europe most cars run on propane because gasoline is crazy expensive. As a result, all new engines in Panameras and Cayennes have scoring problems. Propane is dry and engines have no lubrication, even brand new cars have scoring damage. Audis, Mercedes too, there is no exception. When they fix them they install steel cylinders and these cars run forever. Still waiting for your answer regarding your single row bearings. Do you think you should still recommend them to people knowing they cause expensive engine failures?

Quotes source post: 12575081

Yes, top of each main bearing. You install them before you put the bearings into the crankshaft cradle. They are closed at low oil pressure, but otherwise provide adequate lubrication. We've even deleted them with no ill effect with nikasil bores since nikasil (or any of it's equivalents like Millennium's NSC) is oleophilic.

Yes, they are for piston cooling and sometimes aid in rod small end lube issues

Quotes source post: 12575051

So why do you think all car factories use nicasil in engines these days? It's because engine designers do not decide this, it's the corporation's economic division that makes these decisions. Project is supposed to cost as little as possible, run, and then break. It just doesn't last, that's the bottom line. They want it to be light, cheap and break later to stimulate their sales and the economy. If we want longevity from our engines we have to use different applications. Porsche has nothing to do with it, they don't care about having unbreakable engine. Steel sleeves would give them the same power if factory would want to make it that way. In my opinion, these motors don't have impressive hp, it adds up to about 90hp per liter. Steel cylinders would only make one big difference- would run longer and car sales would go down.

Quotes source post: 12575149

Martin, You have your technologies confused.. Most manufacturers today do not use Nikasil, because it's an expensive plating process. You have Nikasil confused with Lokasil, and Alusil, neither of which are a plating process.

Quotes source post: 12575160

You're right, these are even cheaper versions of what ln offers, but it doesn't change the fact that it has short durability. My bottom line was you won't see steel sleeves, it's all aluminum derivatives. It's about production cost and weight. Same like everything that surrounds us today, everything is made from crap and doesn't last.

The machined step would be a critical necessity .I believe Kolbenschmidt (? spelling) the block manufacturer provides detailed instructions for this in their sleeve repair advice .A simple press fit sleeve with no step is ugly.

Quotes source post: 12575103

Ok, we're not talking about propane or even E85. I've never done any development work with nikasil in these applications so I can't have an intelligent conversation there without doing proper research. Fuels are certainly an issue with all modern engines. Have a discussion about this with Lake Speed at Driven oils and you'll learn more than you ever would want to know about engine cleanliness as well as lubricity, which are all concerns today. We're also not talking about OM617 diesel mercedes engines. There are plenty of engines with iron sleeves that are designed to run that way or will accept steel/iron sleeves just fine. You have even said it yourself - modern engines are all aluminum and light - the castings are marginal. We wouldn't be having this discussion if they were not. Like I said before, a perfect example of this is a 944 block. I'd bet a DFI 9A1 engine might take steel sleeves fine too - it's a much more substantial casting than that of the M96/M97. Comparing the M96 engine to any other engine to prove your point that steel sleeves work better than Nickies and will last longer again does not make any sense when you are comparing apples and oranges. Typically steel/iron sleeves are a result of cost constraints. So is Lokasil (M96/M97). Again, had the block been Alusil with pistons with proper clearance and offsets, we would not be having this discussion. I'm not the only one stating this - look at what Capricorn in the UK does. They sleeve blocks exactly like I do here in the US - aluminum with nikasil or if budget is a concern, then they use steel, but aluminum nikasil is the top offering by them. I have already addressed your issue with our single row IMS bearings and yes, everything we have everywhere in print and and on the web directs customers to choose our newest options, as does our sales staff. Also, we are not the only ones with single row deep groove ball bearings - Tune RS offers theirs with the DOF and Pelican offers their kit that uses a single row bearing for both single row and double row intermediate shafts. There are even a few other options out there overseas (FVD) using similar bearing technology. The majority of single row bearings work just fine. Not until you hit the density of bearings we've achieved do you see a few instances of failures as would be expected. Again, it's a numbers game. Our end user, in most cases a shop, has his choice of many options for bearings and we can't force them to choose. As long as others offer a single row bearing option, we will continue since there is a demand and regardless of what you think or feel, it is a proven product, and continue to find ways to improve said product, as anyone who uses our parts would have noticed as we've really stepped up our game and invested heavily in further improving our quality and raising our standards. In fact, there even is demand for a roller bearing kit. I made and Jake tested a roller bearing retrofit kit years ago. We chose to spend the time and effort on the IMS Solution instead. However, we were asked by SSF about a roller bearing kit since their sales staff wants one. We're delivering it do them the end of this week for the single row IMS engines with proper, integral thrust control, based on all our development work to date. If there is demand, we'll make them a dual row version, again since it's already done and in our back pocket, just like the dual row IMS Solution, which is also in production due to requests from those we sell to. What many do not know is that I have spent years of my life along with Jake to come up with ideas, make, and test solutions. Some didn't work as well as we would like but others have been a success.

I really don't care for online spats, but this thread has been incredibly educational.

Here is a little info for you Martin...interesting stuff.

Took me a while, but I found it. Blown head gasket when d-chunk occurred on steel sleeved engine.

Quotes source post: 12575175

That's why it's not just pressed. If it was I wouldn't send it all the way to Poland. I have seen this kind of work here in US, later cylinders fall out. You can also see sample pics of this kind of work on LN website. Any local machine shop can press cylinders like that. The trick is to find the correct material, right piston rings, right technology and making sure the process takes time to get the right quality.

Quotes source post: 12575235

So are you saying we don't have the right material, right pistons rings, right technology, and correct processes? So thousands of engines, hundreds of shops, and one of the largest parts wholesalers must be wrong then and we should just close and send everyone to you, right? Maybe your steel sleeving process is better than the others and you've figured out the right combo, but knocking ours down to promote yours on the forum is just in bad taste. The Porsche world is small but there is no reason we can't co-exist peacefully. Again, none of this would have started had you not attacked my company, employees, products, and me personally.

Steel within aluminum.... Add some electrolysis and you have the perfect storm. Anyone else out there familiar with dissimilar metal corrosion? Charles' photo shows it perfectly.

You bet...I'm in construction and consultants and engineers have a field day with dissimilar materials all day.

Any comments on this?

Or this?

Quotes source post: 12575232

Again, this is exactly what I was talking about, done here in US. It had no right to last, it's too thin and during work it will bend and overheat. I've seen this before in my shop, cylinder fell inside. I understand why you defend your product, but you cannot compare my product to this crap. I'm here till the end of this month, come by and I can show you how it's done. I can even take an engine apart after high mileage and show you what these cylinders look like. I'm glad you came to the same conclusion as me- roller bearings are more durable. Now that you will start selling them, why did you start arguing with me over these bearings in the first place? If you both claimed that idea of a roller bearing was crappy and now you're going to sell them yourself, why did we have the public war in the first place? It's both of you who said this is not a good idea and defended your ball bearings. I don't get it, you were also my first customer who purchased my roller bearing a couple years ago You paid for it and had it shipped to Flat6. I don't care, but it really makes me laugh how you are trying so hard not to loose your money. I think I'm starting to have regrets about our public fights, we should have combined my product and your name and make a lot of money, lol. Just joking in case anyone wondered! I'd like to see all Jake's followers faces who were backing both of you up at the time we were arguing. I have a great idea! Jake and Charles, you both should run for president, you have all the right qualities! Every time I listen to what you have to say it's different! Who knows, maybe you will start selling steel cylinders pretty soon? Never say never...When you start selling your roller bearings send me one as an appreciation gift. Good luck

Quotes source post: 12575264

Let me refresh your memory Charles. You were the first ones to purchase my bearing and both you and Jake gave your "professional" opinion on the 986 forum. This is how it all started. I did not just start attacking your company out of the blue, I don't care what you both do. I was defending my products and services which in Jakes opinion were crap.

Your actions speak so loudly that I can't hear what you are saying.....

Quotes source post: 12575334

Looks like splashed oil lubricated? Also based on what Charles wrote on post #338, does it mean this bearing was tested and approved by Jake as a viable alternative to the LN ceramic bearing? Definitely want more details.

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I learned my lesson about "approving" anything. That goes back to why I only offer engines for sale.

Quotes source post: 12575432

Its an alternative for sure. I'll leave it to RND (Charles and Jake) to comment on.

It's fascinating how little by little the truth comes out. There is also alot of good technical information and discussion happening. Some personal attacks too but it taperred off at bit. True gearheads share information to better the rest of the DIY community so any good info is worth it's weight in good. If something is inferrior to another product then there is no shame admiting to it. Are roller berrings better suited for M96 intermediate shafts than ball bearings?

Quotes source post: 12575336

Don't flatter yourself, we bought one of every one's bearing to see what was being offered on the market as an evaluation for SSF. The RND roller is being offered as a less expensive option for those who want to use a roller bearing. Again, this is being offered at the request of SSF Auto Parts because their sales guys were responding to a demand for a roller bearing kit. Again, SSF came to us first. No steel cylinders. I've already done those. I made biral (steel lined aluminum cylinders) years ago. They didn't perform anywhere near as well as our Nickies, so we dropped them. We would have never considered steel sleeves for this application with our past experience with them. Again, a ceramic bearing with sintered silicon nitride ***** was a logical choice for wear mitigation considering we brought to market ceramic cam followers almost 14 years ago to fix cam lifter failures due to excessive wear, until we discovered it was the oil causing the failures. Then we moved on. Common thread here - you can never stop trying new things and learning. If there is any constant, it's that things change. You see this as a negative, I see this as a positive.

Quotes source post: 12575529

I would say they work just as well. Our bearing engineer preferred the choice of the ceramic hybrid ball bearing over a roller bearing since the bearing must provide all thrust control and the original bearings always showed signs of excessive thrust loading when failing. The roller bearing supplied with the RND kit is equivalent in load capacity to a dual row ims bearing, however a ball bearing can carry half of it's load as thrust where a roller bearing can carry only about 10% of it's total load as thrust. An extended load range bearing along with true thrust control improves this significantly. Will a roller bearing outlast a dual row ceramic hybrid bearing? That is the question of the century. To date, not a single dual row ceramic bearing has failed and that's what's used in the Classic Dual Row and Single Row Pro kit. What I can state is that we're using the highest quality extended load range roller bearing available on the market that has an integral, 52100 series, heat treated thrust surface on both faces of the bearing, which is certainly unique to this kit. This bearing is hard to come by. No supplier had them in the US and they had to come out of the UK and there were only 450 in the world available. Again, our supplier is top notch and makes sure we are supplied with the best bearings possible, not the Romanian URB and Chinese roller bearings floating out on the market currently.

For the record: All of my engines use the IMS Solution, exclusively. If someone requests something different, I request that they find another builder. I invented the product for my engines, and I will only use the simplest, most effective, and best component available. It doesn't matter what it costs, as costs are always tertiary to reliability and longevity. Of all the things we've developed, the IMS Solution is my baby.

Quotes source post: 12575457

Yes, it's a viable alternative we evaluated years ago - that's the reason we were able to go from request to finished product in less than 8 weeks is that we had already done all the work. For the same reason, we took years to come out with the IMS Solution, because there is always resistance to change, especially new products. If we can rewind and go back to 2008 or even earlier, everything Jake and I did wasn't easily accepted. We earned our acceptance. One reason for a choice of a ball bearing is that Porsche chose a ball bearing, not a roller bearing. They changed the bearing three times - they could have easily gone to a roller bearing. But this would have been hard for the aftermarket to accept at the time since most believed the problem was made up and that Porsche in fact did not have a problem. Sorry Martin, you shouldn't take this personally. It took me over half a decade to be accepted by the industry through hard work. I had to prove myself. It doesn't come overnight.

Quotes source post: 12575432

Ahsai, thanks for asking about this. The M96/M97 is wet sumped. Has been and always will be unless you pay someone gobs of money to make it dry sumped using a belt driven external pump like on a dragster. The IMS is submerged in oil. Just look at a picture of the rear of the M96 engine. The IMS is sitting at the bottom of the sump. If there is no oil there to lubricate it, there is no oil for the pickup to deliver to the engine.

Quotes source post: 12575603

Its enough oil for an IMS Solution to run with no oil line attached, and live through 7,000 RPM dyno pulls, and 15 miles on the street. Who wants to see it on video? I think its time that I start my old Podcast back up again.......

Charles, I beleive there is a typo in your reply to my post. Second paragraph, second line should be ball not roller.

Quotes source post: 12575639

Thank you, correction made.

Quotes source post: 12575407

How about a memory refresher: http://986forum.com/forums/boxster-p...ines-sale.html http://986forum.com/forums/general-d...g-failure.html

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

This thread is almost as good and twice as informative as the "45 vs. 9mm" threads on the gun sites! Always more ways than one to skin a cat......

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To be effective, you have to hit the target. No matter what I'm shooting, I hit the target.

Accuracy over power is always my preference. That's why I favor my 1911. That said, when the time comes I'm sending my car to Jake for a hot rod build.

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I'm all for short, fat and slow, too.

Since you guys changed topic, let me switch as well. I was able to trace all the internal coolant passages cast into the block. My question is "Is the green path of coolant flow correct?" Dashed line means the line is internal hence not visible externally. The red path is provided by the oil pump assembly (removed and not shown in the pic). The water pump sucks up the coolant from the center circular port (red and green flow) and pumps out the yellow flow for bank 1 and the blue flow for bank 2. Cooling the cylinders and heads from the bottom up to the top of the engine. Then the (yellow and blue) flows merge at the upper right then into the red arrow which goes back to the pump. The return side of the green flow is controlled by the thermostat so when the coolant is not up to temp, the green flow is not flowing but when the thermostat starts to open, the green flow will start to flow. The thermostat is sensing the temp of the red flow. m96-coolant-flow.jpg

Thats fairly close, BUT the front console enters the equation, and changes things up a bit. You'll learn the coolant path in my classes. We go over this first, in the 101 class, online.

Jake, it's good to know I will learn this in your engine rebuild class. By "Front console", did you mean the heater core? That seems to be just another parallel circuit similar to the cylinder/head circuits? I've added that (black flow) and the coolant temp sensor, which taps into the lower part of the red flow in the diagram. If the green flow (and its direction) is correct, that begs the question why people say the coolant temp sensor is at the RETURN path AFTER the radiators when it's actually at the return path of the coolant right after the cylinders and heads? m96-coolant-flow.jpg

The front console bolts onto the engine, and houses the oil pump, and provides for completion of the coolant paths.

Got it. The front console is not shown in the pic and I tried to represent it by the red flow. I found it interesting that there are multiple parallel flows which are controlled (metered) by the cross section areas of the opening of each flow. ...must be very carefully designed as one flow affects the other as they are in parallel and coolant will try to find the path of the least resistance.

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Absolutely. You also have bypasses and heater return that enter into the equation of the front console. Some aspects of the cooling system don't make sense.... Epoxy can change everything :-)

Yea, the front console is a big merger of a few flows. Another question. Do you know what are those 6 circular dots on the top of the craddle in the pic (of course you know. I should have asked if you could tell me...)? I can't find any documentation of those. Pic is courtesy of autopartsboutique01 on eBay junk.JPG

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You can see for yourself in the class, I have a carrier as a "visual aid".

Ok, I'll wait and hit you with tons of questions in the class

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Thats what the class is for....

Ashai you really have a gift/passion for this! But I'd love to know where Martin went. A lot of technical data was being offered up and he is MIA. From your local arrogant American.

Thanks Pete. I'm glad Jake and Martin took the fight somewhere else and called a truce on 9/11. I measured the cylinders on this 100k engine with a bore gauge zeroed at 3.7795" (0.00005" resolution and 0.0003" accuracy) and here's what I found (@80F ambient). Of course this is what Jake has been telling us. I measured 3 positions at 0.5", 2.5" and 3.5" from top of the cylinder on two planes (thrust and non-thrust) so a total of 36 measurements on 6 cylinders. The worst oval occurs at the top of the cylinder (not surprising). On the thrust side it's stretched outward but on the non-thrust side (90 degree from the thrust side), it's "squeezed" inwards. Also, compared to the top, the cylinder tapers narrower when you go from top to bottom on the thrust plane. However, on the non-thrust plane, the cylinder tapers WIDER when you go from top to bottom (hence negative taper on the non-thrust plane). Also, cyl #2 and #5 are the worst, similar to what Jake posted before. Ovality (thou +/- 0.6 thou), Taper 1 (thrust plane), Taper 2 (non-thrust plane) Cyl1 4.15, 1.65, -1.95 Cyl2 7.45, 3.15, -3.35 Cyl3 5.80, 2.30, -2.25 Cyl4 4.55, 1.70, -1.55 Cyl5 7.70, 2.80, -2.95 Cyl6 3.85, 1.55, -1.40 Cylinder-Measurements (Large).jpg

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Glad to see that you recorded this and individually quantified my findings. No one listens when I say it. That's an excellent bit of data, and your image is revealing. Mind if I add this to my class? Now you see why all parent material is removed at the water jacket side of the block when using Nickies. The parent cylinder material is not stable. Yes, truce for me today. I decided to actually take a day off to work on my Testarossa 😎

Thanks Jake and you're more than welcome to use it anywhere you like. I definitely see why the parent material is removed at the water jacket side as it gets deformed by the pistons. Just wondering why the LN Nickies don't use a stabilizing ring to mimic a close-deck design to add more strength to the top of the cylinders? It's funny "work on Testarossa" = day off. I can see how much passion you have. Enjoy your day!

Ahsai, Thanks for posting the ovality and taper. Only those of us who have attempted a meticulous rebuild will understand the value of the data you offered. When I made theses same measurements I was unable to find any M96 comparative numbers. One of the 'sources' I enjoyed was jafromobile on Youtube and this one: http://biosystems.okstate.edu/home/f...inderTaper.htm Blueprint 106 - Cylinder Bore Inspection - YouTube Just researching the best tools to perform accurate measurements was a project! I am very familiar with such tools but found it difficult with the M96. The critical test was to attempt to replicate the same measurements 3 consecutive times and get exactly the same readings. For those who are thinking "what is the problem ?" -remember we are talking of a replicated accuracy required of +/-,1/10th or 1 thou. Since I was not confident my own measurements were accurate,nor did I know what the limits of servicability were I never published the results because they could have been misleading. You have made a huge contribution to diy M96 rebuilds because to incur all the expense,time and anxiety but produce a poor rebuild is sad. Once the limits for ovality and taper are published here, it will make a "Nickies decision" much easier. Thank you for publishing your data.

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Simply adding this sealing area at the top of the cylinders reduces cooling capability, due to the design of the cylinder head. Retaining the open deck is the best form of cooling the hottest portion of the cylinder. The Nickies billet extrusion is so strong that this is also not necessary. Remember, I love to flank the industry, and pull rabbits out of my hat... So you never know what we've already done.

Ovality (thou +/- 0.6 thou), Taper 1 (thrust plane), Taper 2 (non-thrust plane) Cyl1 4.15, 1.65, -1.95 Cyl2 7.45, 3.15, -3.35 Cyl3 5.80, 2.30, -2.25 Cyl4 4.55, 1.70, -1.55 Cyl5 7.70, 2.80, -2.95 Cyl6 3.85, 1.55, -1.40 Ahsai's numbers are a great start but unless you know the wear limits this is just data not information ? The conventional wisdom for other engines may be useless ? To get the discussion started I would guess (what a stupid word to use in this context!) that the ovality limit should be 4 thou at 100Kmiles. Taper should be less than 2 thou. I am well aware that some modern engines have a taper limit of much less than 1 thou ! And that high tension rings may be a palliative but I can't find reliable info on this. And how would you 'match' ring gap to the ovality/taper you find -even if it is within the unknown limits?

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Thanks, Schnell. Yes, the tools are tricky to use at first but after some practice they are quite easy and I took multiple measurements at around the same spots (of course you can never be on the exact same spot unless you mark it but then you're adding thickness albeit maybe negligible) and I'm amazed how reproducible they are. I'm pretty confident about the bore gauge readings since it only measures the length difference but if someone tries to derive the absolute dimensions from my data, they have to realize that the absolute values will only be as good as the micrometer I used (0.0001" resolution), which in turn is calibrated using the 2" measuring rod that comes with the kit. I don't know how accurate that measuring rod is. If we need absolute dimensions, I think the best is to get a quality measuring rod (e.g., Starrett) to calibrate the micrometer but those are not cheap. The tools I used. 0910152245 (Large).jpg 0910152246 (Large).jpg

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Thanks, Jake. That makes sense. The ring will be surrounding the cylinder at the top in place of coolant so that would prevent the coolant from circulating that part of the cylinder and the head to remove heat effectively.

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I have the 2005 Cayenne piston/cylinder spec and tolerance. They don't spec limits for ovality and taper. They only spec the cylinder diameter wear limit: 3 thou compared to the original bore size (which they published) measured at 6 positions along the cylinder similar to what I did. I don't even know the exact bore size of M96 so I just used 96mm as a base. It won't affect my ovality/taper measurements anyway. I would think the diameter at the lower part of the cylinder where the webbing is heaviest and where the rings don't touch will be close to the stock diameter.

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Would you mind sharing with me the wear data for the Cayenne? Was it for the V8 or the VR6? I've never seen any limits published anywhere. I've always gone with the limits from the aircooled cylinders of max .002" ovality and taper in the cylinders. Unless a block is new or very low mileage, they always are out of spec - most are a minimum of .005" ovaled - the worst we found had .015" ovality. That is why we instruct shops that are doing repairs not to re-ring the pistons if they aren't re-doing the bores. They are better re-using the original rings per position since they have already worn to match the bores. New rings will never seat otherwise.

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After hearing you say that, it seems like common sense but something a lot of people probably don't think about.

I wonder how many M96 rebuilders replace rings because that used to be the standard procedure with other ,older engines ? The problem would be not just the sealing of the round rings in an oval bore but the ring gap? Ahsai has a good tip -measure the delta of the bore directly.Do not calculate it like Jafromobile does in the video.

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Hi Charles, here you go and you're welcome https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...9ZHI1JWsW702CA Come to think about the spec, they spec that the wear on all 6 measurement points shall be < 0.08mm (~3 thou). I think that automatically implies implicitly both ovality and taper shall also be < 0.08mm (~3 thou). So I think your 2 thou sounds very good and conservative. They also list the ring specs and the piston specs

Schnell, grab that pdf before it's gone and I know what you'll be busy with this weekend I plan to measure the used ring as well to see if they wear evening in all radial directions. I still keep the original orientation of them when I removed the pistons. It would be interesting to see if the thrust side will wear more and if the rings are round or oval. Even though fitting new rings on used bores is not a good practice, there seems to be plenty of ppl doing that w/o much problem.

Note the second ring is pinned...... New rings in a bore thats not round, and isn't straight, doesn't work well at all. Old rings have a better chance of sealing.

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Right and I think the ring gap will grow beyond spec too as it starts to wear to conform to the oval.

BTW, I measured the diameters of piston #1 and here are the measurements: Top (non-thrust side): 3.7549" Top (thrust side): 3.7581" 10mm from bottom of skirt (thrust side): 3.7794" Skirt bottom (thrust size): 3.7783" Combined this with the cylinder #1 measurements, I think the piston to cylinder gap (total gap, not divided by 2) is 2.4 thou. Note the top of the piston is about 25 thou smaller to allow for extreme thermal expansion.

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Put the piston and block in the freezer for 24 hours and measure them both at the same temp.

Great procedure but... if I do that are you offering marriage repair as well as M96 repair :-)?

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What? You don't have a freezer in your garage?

I"ll be happy to do that if anyone sends me a garage freezer Btw, I found the spec for 997 pistons for pistons in the "X" group. 95.985mm to 95.995mm when new. Wear limit is 0.1mm

Nice work Ahsai! Subscribed. You do PPI's? I'm assuming you are in SD like cringely?

Doh, nm

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Thanks. I'm in SoCal but I don't do PPI's. I'm just an shade tree mechanic

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Oh ok, no worries. Thanks

Asaih, calling yourself a 'tree-shade' mechanic sounds very modest. I personally think otherwise and I don't think I'm alone here. All your posts and write ups have been extremely informative and show that you are having a great understanding and in depth knowledge of these cars and I have learned a lot from them. Thank you!

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Thanks for the kind words and glad to hear my posts are useful. Now waiting to graduate to an engine assembler one day

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Well you're a good way there since you're taking "the class". Just make sure you don't sign any NDA when you get there.

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+996 Dude, everything you write is spot on. Also equally important: Your forum etiquette is excellent. Good man! So is this engine rescue-worthy?

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NDA will be self-imposed if not signed...not fair to share Jake's proprietary info in the public. Maybe we can encourage Jake to publish his book. The thing is all the critical info will be proprietary (and hard earned by Jake through all the R&D) so in reality, not sure how much Jake can disclose in his book. The non-critical stuff probably has limited values anyway... Thanks for the kind words! That's a $10k question (parts only). The crank looks OK but will take it to a machine shop to verify first. I think the question is if I build an engine, will I be able to sell car + engine (break even) down the road once I put a few thousand miles, a few oil changes/inspections and verified everything is working fine. Will be strange to keep two almost identical cars in the long run

Some of the best class attendees I have ever had came from other fields... Neurosurgery, Orthopedics, one was an English Professor, programmers, you name it... They really pay attention, because the engine intrigues them. I love our enthusiast classes, teaching pros can really suck, since most of them are sent here by their boss and are just screwing off. One lit up some weed at lunch, and came back stoned. I kicked his *** off the property and kept his money. I have slots for the December class remaining!

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Well, my educational background is Microbiology who as a group are known to be obsessive compulsive, detail oriented, investigative, skeptical, and **** retentive. I think I might make a good student!

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Or you'd be the 1st Microbiologist kicked out of the class for bringing Schizomycetes into the clean room.

Yeah, thumbs up from me for Asai. you've been an amazing help with my own build.

Ahsai is extremely knowledge and his diagnostics are always spot-on, he always share without feeling omnipotent, considering himself a "tree-shade" mechanic is a belittled term. Sent from my iPhone using Rennlist

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my wife is a microbiologist, but the last thing she is obsessive compulsive is her car, I'm the one who has to take care off, and definitely she is not **** retentive 😂😂 Sent from my iPhone using Rennlist

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haha....

Thanks for the kind words, guys. Will be interesting to see what other profession I will meet in the engine rebuild class.

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At least one professional ******* will be there!

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Guilty until proven innocent!

I thought the tread might want to know that I finally replaced my 996. Picked up a 2009 997 plain vanilla (actually black) Carrera from Circle Porsche in Long Beach, CA today. Haven't yet updated my avatar, but will do so in the next few days. I have to give cudos to Ahsai for his efforts in restoring my 996's engine. I will continue to follow Ashai's postings as they are a wealth of information. Besides which, he is a really nice guy. Regards, Cringely

Congrats and thanks for the kind words! 2009 997s are quite difficult to find and I'm glad you found one. I'll follow your posts in the 997 forum in the future.

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Congrats on your new Non-IMSB Carrera! I am still loving my 996 even though I feel like I'm living on the edge with my second IMSB engine.

This thread had been intriguing and informative! Thanks

Latest updates: - Crank magnafluxed and cleaned. It's in good shape. - All IMS, timing chains, and broken pieces sent to LN engineering and the super expert in GA for careful analysis. It was found that the bearing was a collateral damage due to excessive slop on the IMS bearing end, snapped IMS paddle and 1/4" stretched IMS drive chain. - Despite the finding, Charles kept his word that he would help me rebuild this engine. "Help" may be a weak word if you consider what Charles has to offer - Placed order for the 3.8 Nickies and other goodies

In the photo below you can see the oil dip stick sleeve installed in the engine case. There's a small hole near its end. That hole is very close to the "MAX" mark on the dip stick. If you extend a line horizontally from that hole, you can imagine that the IMS and IMSB are completely submerged in the engine oil when the engine is at rest. Just thought that was interesting. I always thought only part of the lower portion of the bearing is submerged in oil. 0207161657a_HDR.jpg

^^ Cool observation. When the engine is running I believe the oil level is a bit lower than when the motor is shut down (with oil circulating throughout the engine). How much I don't know...

Ahsai, Useful fact on a subject where assertions often overwhelm the facts. You are correct ,I too recall some big names saying( the lower 1/3 of) the bearing is submerged . Perhaps they meant 'while the engine is running' ? That too is confusing because Pedro's video simulation shows oil being spun out of the bearing as soon as the engine is spinning.I'm not saying Pedro's video is an accurate representation of what really happens to the oil around the IMSB, just that it is interesting and nobody has done any more convincing video of the issue yet? Porsche IMS Bearing Story featuring the Direct Oil Feed (DO) - YouTube

Yes, agreed and understood that the oil level will be lower when engine is running.

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Every time I see this video, I kind of laugh.

"Convincing video" Hell, we can't make a video.. If we do we are considered "fear mongers", or accused of making this whole issue up. To be a true resource, something should not be "convincing". It should be filled with fact, and have years of first hand experience behind it. It's hard to help people today. So hard that it's not worth it.

These >convincing videos> show the simple centrifugal forces at play which I'm sure is a contributing factor to some or all failures, but barring impurities/imperfections during bearing manufacture which contribute to few failures, it still does not explain why some bearings fail while others live a long life within the same M96 design and subjected to the same forces at play.

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We have identified a reason why some engines lose bearings, and others do not. This also substantiates why some engines will lose multiple bearings, or even a retrofit bearing in the same shaft. An open IMS bearing only requires 1cc of oil per minute, you can spin the shaft 20,000 RPM and let it sling oil to Mars, and it'll still retain 1cc of oil per minute. Of course, some guy thats working out of his garage, developing products with a shop vac doesn't know that.

I think it would be great to have a beer with Pedro. Some of his test rigs are...dubious, but on the put-up or shut-up continuum, he's way out near the far end of put-up...

During lunch at my hands- on classes we play those videos. The laughter from the room filled with seasoned technicians can be heard 1/4 mile away. The instructors don't even stay in the room.. I turn on the youtube channel and walk out, then ago eat my lunch in the other presentation room while we listen to the roars of laughter that fill the building..

Agree Schnell! The bearing centrifugal forces take place in much, much more confined area than his plastic container so I'm sure quite a bit more oil get back to the bearing area by splashing back from various closed in parts. Interesting comment you make Jake! Would some engines' IM shafts and bearings be installed misaligned at the factory by any chance ... due to minute manufacturing imperfections?

There's a lot more to the story. We have been gathering data to support this for years, measuring every shaft we can, and logging dimensions. About 2 months ago the most eye opening case yet popped up.. A shaft that had a bearing failing, and was retrofitted with a competitors part. That part started to fail, so the bearing was blamed and the person bought a Classic Single Row LN bearing (even though he was advised not to, because the bearing previously had failed). That bearing was installed and within 6 months the engine had a similar noise reappear for a 3rd time. It was pulled apart, and the story started to get really interesting.

My favorite was the test rig that used (as I recall, my memory may be flawed) a shop vac and some matches to indicate the degree to which the intake...um...sucked. *edit* Sorry, it was foamy discs, not matches. Told you my memory sucked.

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No, it was small "pucks"... That video is revealing, until one realizes that the long side of that splitter does nothing on an NA engine, and the relevance of that test would only come into play when boost is involved... Thats never mentioned, though. Dude obviously never spent any time on a flow bench, if he did, he'd know that the short side of the plenum/ port or etc is the only side that sees velocity in an NA application. On the long side, a pitot tube can be employed, and even at 28" IWC you won't see any velocity there thats measurable. The way that unit builds "torque" is by reducing plenum cross sectional volume, which hurts HP, while making just a tad more torque over a very narrow range.

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Thank you Jake! I hope some day we'll hear the end of that story ... but until then, I will respect your proprietary silence. Cheers! Martin

"An open IMS bearing only requires 1cc of oil per minute, you can spin the shaft 20,000 RPM and let it sling oil to Mars, and it'll still retain 1cc of oil per minute." I am interested in that critical 1 cc of oil. I am guessing that is just an estimate to emphasize how little oil is required to maintain a contiguous film of oil on the load bearing surfaces of the bearing? So most of that 1cc/min of oil would be filling the voids in a deep groove ball bearing & acting as a reservoir ? If this is correct(???) the volume of oil actually providing the working film between the loaded ***** and race may be even smaller than the notional 1cc/min ? Just trying to understand this issue.Apologies if I am way off base.

$->parts conversion process has begun. Some goodies from LN arrived yesterday. Low temp thermostat 0229162031a_HDR (Small).jpg 99mm JE pro-series custom piston 0229162023_HDR (Small).jpg 0229162115b_HDR (Small).jpg 0229162117a_HDR (Small).jpg Billet hex drive 0229162029_HDR (Small).jpg Billet IMS paddle 0229162021_HDR (Small).jpg 0229162021a_HDR (Small).jpg

3/4" electrical conduit, compression union, and a 15mm deep socket... voila you got a tool 0227161622a_HDR (Small).jpg 0227161624_HDR (Small).jpg 0227161828_HDR (Small).jpg It's just for fun as I'm gonna get the Porsche timing/wrist pin clip tool (cloned) anyway.

awesome stuff. can't wait to see more!

Thanks. More thoughts on the JE piston. The pistons feel very solid with all the trusses (lightened) at the bottom. The top edge of the piston has ribs supposed to reduce friction. That's interesting because I thought with the rings in place, the top of the piston should never touch the cylinder wall? The coated skirt is shorter and has a much smaller contact area than the stock piston. I also found that not intuitive as you would think longer skirt should provide better stability, especially with the large thrust angle of the rods (short stroke).

I love how involved you get with this stuff.

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So I can be "Porsche people" worthy

A feature I didn't notice before I bought the LN low temp thermostat (photo courtesy of LN Engineering). junk.jpg

aka Jiggle pin http://www.stant.com/index.php/engli...rmostats/faqs/

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Thanks Schnell. That's an interesting feature.

Are you going to use a longer version of that tool to install the pistons?

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Yes, that's the plan. I'm contemplating making a flange to lock the longer version to the engine case once the tool is fully inserted and seated squarely on the wrist pin hole of the piston. Then one can tap the clip in with confidence. I've used the Porsche factory tool in Jake's class but the tool doesn't inspire confidence. It has too many moving parts. One has to keep pressure on the tool against the wrist pin hole WHILE delivering a strong blow to send the clip home. One slip can mess it up. Something like this. The flange is red. The green holes form a perfect vertical plane to align/lock the insertion tool in place (the blue circle is the access port). flange (Small).jpg

Regarding the pistons, Wow! I have never seen a valve notch so close to the upper ring land. I hope this doesn't lead to problems. One has to think that JE know there business. Paul

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Good point.

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I've been planning to make something like that too. I want the observation of the clips to be more controllable than the factory tool. A setup that can be slowly screwed in as opposed to slammed in by hand. Post what you make, it will be handy for every other DIYer.

Having done this task with the 'approved' tools ,I can only say "Great Idea"! If you've done lots of these engines or the similar Subaru setup,perhaps it is O.K. But using clumsy force on this engine seemed inappropriate at best . It will be very interesting to see the new tool.

I am not so sure tapping the clip in is a good idea, it needs to go in, in one motion once its in the proper position. Maybe some more practice before final assembly is in order? Also aren't you going to grind off the clip tabs?

Thanks for the suggestions, guys. Yes, I just used the stock clip to practice and will eventually grind off the tang as the JE clips are tangless. Will experiment a bit and report back. Mainly it's for fun as I'm ok using the stock tool.

we were 2 on the stock tool. one held it in place nice and firmly and the bother gave it agood tap with the mallet.

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Yea, a helper would be nice. In Jake's class, everyone was required to perform this task by himself without failure.

Just for my education, I measured the old piston ring gap in cylinder #1. The cylinders and the rings have deformed so much that they don't seal around the whole circumference. You can clearly see light from the cracks between the two. If you rotate the ring inside the cylinder, you could clearly feel that you're sliding something round around something oval. They fit best with the original orientation - the ring gap was about 15 thou. I cannot imagine how one can fit new rings into an ovaled cylinders and still have a good feeling. Also can't imagine how to gap the new rings with ovaled cylinders. It feels so bad and cylinder #1 is already the least distorted. My cyl #2 and #5 are about 6 to 7 thou out of round! Although Jake has told us before may as well use the old rings, I just want to confirm here with my own observation.

You are putting in new pistons in a block that has not been re-sleeved?

No, old piston in the old block. I haven't sent the block to LN yet. Just trying to check the stock ring gap and how the old rings seal in an ovaled bore.

Got it. I think he did mention in class, that the rings will assume the original positions if you reuse them and put them back in the same bore. So in a engine "refresh" just put in new bearings and leave the pistons alone.

My faultless tool uses a feature like Ahsai mentions.. This locks the tool to the crankcase, and easily delivers the pin and clip mechanically. You guys are acting like JE just started making these Pistons.. Hell, that piston design is a decade old, and has been used at least 1,400 times by those all over the world. You should see how wild my "X" piston is compared to that standard off the shelf offering.

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Yes, Jake. Locking the tool to the crankcase makes a lot of sense. Re the JE pistons, I'm sure they work well. As usual, I'm curious of the design and try to understand how and why each feature works.

So I made the following flange to lock the pipe and used a 12oz hammer to lightly tap the clip in. It works. Tap, tap, tap, "Ping". You can hear the clip went in. The tool was locked solidly and nothing moves. The principle is correct. HOWEVER, I would recommend building it ONLY if you can find a pipe and plunger with even closer dimensions to the the factory tool. The 3/4" electrical conduit is the closest I can find but it still has a slightly smaller diameter and thicker wall than the factory tool. The 15mm craftsman socket I use fits snugly into the 3/4" pipe but it's slightly skinnier than the wrist pin (the factory tool plunger has the same size as the wrist pin). There are 2 issues because of the OFF dimensions: 1) the smaller diameter requires the clip to be compressed more than necessary. That tend to destroy the tension of the clip if you repeatedly install the same clip over and over. 2) the 15mm socket may jam (caught by the fully seated clip) if you slam it very hard. No big deal as you can wiggle the socket out after you retrieve the pipe, at least on the 3.6L engine where there's more room to access from the adjacent cylinder. So in conclusion the factory tool has the best dimensions, it won't over-compress the clip and the plunger won't jam. The only thing I don't like is the tool is not locked to the engine case and you have to keep pressure on the pipe consciously the whole time after it's fully seated and until you drive the clip in, while in the meantime you want to check with a borescope. I'll probably just make do with the factory tool though. 0302162106_HDR (Small).jpg 0302162118a_HDR (Small).jpg 0302162118b_HDR (Small).jpg 0302162135_HDR (Small).jpg

I think Im going to wait finishing mine until you're done yours. ;-P

Congrats Ahsai, will these tools be available in the RL tool loaner program?

Ahsai, Glad to see how things are coming along. Totally impressed with what you've been doing to my (not really that) old 996. Definitely want to see/hear it when you're done. When you're done, you should thing about putting all your posts together is a single document so others can see how it's done.

I suggest a SoCal GTG @ Ahsai's house

The optimum tool may be Ahsai's flange plus the factory(or k/o) tool?

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Haha, no no, you first. Kinda like lining up for a sky diving try out. I think if one can rebuild an engine, one can probably be able to design and fab these tools easily anyway Thanks! You'll be the first to hear from me once it's running. My posts are just for entertainment. For the real stuff, people should wait for and use Jake's book. Indeed, we do have quite a few SoCal folks here. A few of my fellow classmates in Jake's class immediately offered help once they saw my rebuild msg. One lives like 60 miles away! Thank you so much, folks! I think the optimum will be Jake's faultless tool but you're right that if we can somehow lock the stock tool tube onto a flange at different lengths (for different cylinders) that would be a BIG improvement over the stock tool.

Saturday work out Getting the block ready to ship to LN.

Removed all the cosmoline. The freckles can't be removed but I'm quite happy with the result.

Just curious, Ahsai! How heavy would that hunk of metal be?

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Bank 1 half is 44lb and bank 2 half 42.4lb. I measured everything

Love seeing the progress on my old 996. I'm impressed as to the detail he is putting into the rebuild. Hopefully Ahsai will dyno the finished product.

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Thanks, Cringely. It's labor of love. Can't count how much time I spent on just cleaning the components. The engine case halves are not light and you need to treat them like glass (very soft metal so it's super easy to scratch or dent). It's still a long way to go. Should be sending the block to LNE this week then will have to wait for 8 wks for it to turn around.

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You are too much, Ahsai! Attention to details certainly does not scare you a bit or is it just OCD?

In Jake's class, he taught us we should have a combat mentality with engine rebuilding....treat the engine as an enemy trying to kill you (or your wallet). So you want to stay alive by being very careful and address as many issues as we need to bullet prove the engine. Only one shot to get it right. I interpreted that as attention to details is required and every single part and correct fitment counts Weighing the engine case was just natural as I need to get a shipping quote haha

I continue to follow this thread with great interest. Thanks for posting!

Thanks Paul. It's good to know I'm not boring ppl to dealth. With not many responses it's hard to tell

Yeah, it's only page 33....

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I guess that means an amateur question or 2 is ok, so what is the purpose of the step shown in the pic below ... that long rod which is where the IMS goes (correct?) ... is it somehow measuring fit/alignment for a new IMS?

Ahsai: I concur with Paul this is great stuff. I am astonished at the things you are doing. More than I will ever even attempt but beyond interesting and informative. Keep it up!

Thanks guys. Phil, that long rod is the wrist pin clip tool I made. The photo shows how it's locked into place and how's it's used to install the cyl #6 clip. It works well in terms on controlled action but its dimensions are not ideal so it compresses the clip more than necessary, which may weaken the clip.

^Awesome fun following along! Thanks for sharing the adventure!!

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I suspect many are observing but not participating merely due to the fact that they do not have failed motors. Only the ones with failed motors and attempting to DIY will most likely actively participate in this thread. It still somewhat amazes me that due to all the doom and gloom mentalities on here, people are still willing to go through the effort and time to learn how to rebuild their motor even though they may never need it. But other than that, I got nothing worthwhile to contribute except the occasional cheerleading post. Great work! Go Ahsai! Ra Ra Ra!

Alpine, agree with you to a point on most folks not posting. I don't think I've posted on this thread (unless I just said "wow"), but it's extremely interesting. The more we know about our motors, the better owners we become. While I do most of my own work, there's some things I just don't want to do. One of the things that irks me is that I will *not* take my car to a shop unless I know what's wrong with it first. The more I learn thru Ahsai's posts, the better knowledge base I develop for the future. Great thread. Lots of knowledge. Really want to take Jake's course at some point in the future.

Another lurker voting +1 for this thread.

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+996

Update for today. Engine case shipped to LNE - 101.9 lb Bought from LNE a double-wall shipping box with custom foam inserts to protect the engine case. Then I cut some 1.5" styrofoam insulation to add even more padding and wrap like 1/2 lb of duct tape all over it Pretty happy with how secure everything is. Now just need to wait for ~2 months. Will use the time to deal with the heads next. 0229162004_HDR (Small).jpg 0306161650_HDR (Small).jpg box (Small).png 0308161925_HDR (Small).jpg

Hate to see the shipping bill. IIRC anything over 75lbs and shipping costs start to skyrocket...

It was $127.73 ($2k insured value). A drop in the bucket compared to the total cost of rebuild

I was going to suggest you get a box from LN or crate the cases professionally but figure you've gotten this far... no need. I laughed when I saw your recent post... 2 months wait time eh? not bad, itll give you time to collect parts. Are you going with the billet rods? ARP bolts? Ln chain tensioner etc etc. hahaha

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Yup, it gives me plenty of time to deal with the heads and collect parts. There are so many things you can upgrade/address in this engine so you really need some discipline to draw the line somewhere After careful thinking, I've decided to reuse the rods but use ARP con rod bolts and the LN billet IMS paddle. I do have a 3 page long factory parts list though. There will be one significant upgrade that I can't resist. Will show you guys once I receive the block back

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I'm subscribed and no, not boring in the least! Thanks for all your posts and your attention to detail.

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in Canada... $450 shipped with $2500 insurance. LNE needs different shipping options for Canadian customers. UPS is a major rip off and most people in the gear head community absolutely despise UPS and their made up fees.

Ahsai, you have created a very instructional thread, great pictures, great write up, great job. Thank you.

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Wow, that's crazy. You can ship the whole engine (500lb+) here in US for $450. I used Fedex ground...not sure if that will be cheaper for you in Canada. Thanks! I'm trying

Another day of cleaning. The cam covers are full of nooks and crevices and cosmoline. Even a small wire brush won't reach those. Should be done with cleaning.....for now Before: 0306161345 (Small).jpg After: 0312161513_HDR (Medium).jpg 0312161513a_HDR (Medium).jpg

Ashai, what do you use to clean those besides the elbow grease?

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Soda blasting! Quite messy but it's worth it.

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++++++++996. Very enlightening and educational. You are sharing what many of us can only dream about (if) when the need arises. Thanks for sharing and paving the way. Subscribed as well.

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I thought of oven cleaner ...

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Thanks! You got a GT3 so you have nothing to worry about for your engine I use Simple green precision cleaner (for aircraft aluminum). Oven cleaner is acidic and corrosive. It attacks and darkens aluminum alloys. It's good on stainless steel and steel parts though. If you have to use a stronger cleaner, you can try diluted Zep industrial purple degreaser. It should work fine as long as you don't let it dry on the parts.

"If you have to use a stronger cleaner, you can try diluted Zep industrial purple degreaser." ^Pretty much the same as "Super Clean" (Sodium Hydroxide)^ Great stuff, but you have to be careful with it. Definitely dilute, and don't let it stand too long - also don't use on hot parts (warm is ok), and be careful about breathing the fumes...

Simple Green is the only thing I have in my household as it's really versatile and bio degradeable too. I've used Zep and Super Clean and those are some powerful cleaners too as long as you don't use it on any show quality polished aluminum. Ask me how I know.

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Actually, that was my since sold 997.1 C2S Aerokit Coupe. Miss it, so looking at a less (?) costly 996 Coupe as a replacement now. Hoping I never have to replicate your experience (not capable of that), but still very informative and enlightening.

$3 from home depot 1-1/4" rigid conduit nipples. Deburr and smooth out the top. Wrap with one layer of electrical tape. Fits perfectly.

OEM new valve vs old valve. Old valve is 4 thou shorter. Will replace all 12.

It's a disease

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Yep.. Sure is. I have it bad. Mocking up carbs and manifolds

Wow, it's a piece of art!! Engine bling haha and how much is this sculpture again? Almost 3am your time. You must be having too much fun workng on it

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Ashai, what is soda blasting ?

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http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Soda+blasting

Lol For Jake, it's probably something like this http://www.tptools.com/960-DLX-Delux...FZGIaQodxQUPoA For me, I use the $70 eastwood soda/media blasting starter kit. I don't use the media (fine glass) though...should have just got the cheaper soda only kit.

Wow, that stuff just looks beautiful! I was so tempted to do my wheel carriers while I had them off, but the urge to finish and drive the car was too strong Besides, mine is far from a show car... Maybe someday though...maybe next winter

i hate it when someones workshop makes my kitchen look like crap

You can ditch the soda, and upgrade! If you have $400k lying around. CleanLaser CL1000 Eco-Friendly Laser - Grill - YouTube

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Death ray!! A very cool tool.

nevermind my pm.

soooooooo getting a soda blaster. Thats incredible. My degreaser and tornado tool are embarrassed.

Another "Cheer" post for Ahsai's great work so far on his engine rebuild, incredible details and dedications in learning as much as possible about this engine. I tag along to try to see how this engine is put together and great learning for me so far as well, thanks for your posts with pics. I really enjoy it too... Subscribed!!!

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Thanks, Botsy! Pics of new OE valve seals, intake and exhaust springs. All springs will be replaced.

You guys are all getting KK'itis over here with all this cleaning on stuff that's just gonna get dirty again. Keep up the good work and updates.

Took a little over a month. Beautifully machined! I could also see that they went over every inch of the whole block to touch things up. I also checked the deck carefully with a straight edge and the previously low spots were all gone. Very happy with the craftsmanship. Each block is stamped with a serial number and a hand written paper with the actual measured diameter (very close to 99mm). My papers were signed by someone called "J.R.". Probably a coincidence The outer diameter is 115mm so each cylinder is about 8mm thick (compared to 6mm of the stock 3.6). With that thickness, the cylinders are gonna be very stable. There are still some metal dusts on it (expected) so I'll need to give it a thorough bath.

As you're probably aware, give it a nice warm soapy bath, get some long soft wire bottle brushes and clean all of the passages you can, rinse, rinse rinse. Dry well. Get some Kimwipes and brake kleen. Spray and wipe each cylinder as many times as it takes so no more dark colors appear on the wipes. Good luck on the assembly, but I think you have been to class, so you shouldn't need it!

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Yes, that's the plan. Will make it so clean I can eat off it There's some residual green slimy stuff where the stepped sleeves are pressed into the cylinders. Looks like lubrcant. Also quite a bit of aluminum dust inside the coolant passages as well. Now I understand why Jake has an ultrasounic cleaner that costs more than most of our cars haha

Look what Charles sent me! A new IMS with the IMS Solution already installed as a courtesy of LN !! Unbelievable generosity. I sent in the destroyed bearing and shaft and these are what I got in return I've bought the 3.8 Nickies and JE piston/rings package and a bunch of other upgrades such as the billet IMS paddle, low temp thermostat, chromoly oil pump hex drive, timing chains, etc. All with deep discounts. I also want to mention LN's customer service is top notch. Excellent communications. John always follows up and makes sure everything is good. Again, THANK YOU Charles! Will repay you by carefully rebuilding my engine Already sent the engine heads to Len for a total rebuild and some minor port work also. With the IMS Solution, no more worries about the damn bearing...now where should I put that sticker? The complete IMS Solution Kit with a new IMS See how beefy the IMS flange is. Prolly weighs twice the stock flange. The special port where freshly filtered oil is tapped. The regular spin-on filter doesn't have this port. Pinned sprocket Another view

That's awesome news! You are getting the total hookup. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

Nice to see a truly great guy get some well deserved karma. Kudos to LN for recognizing it.

Having dealt with LNE, I'm not surprised. they take care of their customers properly. thumbs Up!

Sweet! Makes it even better. What is that heat mark though?

"What is that heat mark though? " Eees no just a heat mark ... Eees ART !

Okay...I'm jealous. I want to do this...no wait...no I don't....no wait...yes I do....no I don't, yes I do....sighhhhhhhhh Way to go Ahsai! Cannot wait to see the next step.

So as soon as you have all of the parts, lay them out on a bench from the inside out in assembly order and take some glamour shots! All of FSI, LN and their partners go above and beyond!

Thanks guys! Yeah, will definitely take more photos when I have all the parts. Good question about the heat mark and I also noticed it too. Let me ask Charles and see what he says. I also saw some similar heat marks on other photos on google. @Joe..do it! Bore out yours to 3.8 will be pretty sweet Next step is cleaning, a lot of it haha

In addition to the larger center bore, the two smaller bores also have the rainbow discoloration...suggesting that it's a process and not a problem.

Another install here that shows similar heat marks. I wonder if it's due to some type of heat treatment of the flange. Already sent an email to Charles and Jake. Let's see if they will chime in.

Yup, it's from heat treating. The IMS Solution flange is manufactured in a similar process to a crankshaft with heat treatment and then grinding. They are then plasma coated with DLC by Sulzer Metco which gives them the black. For those of you wondering about the state of Solutions (or lack of availability), we should have them all back from DLC on Friday and can start filling back orders. Sorry it's taken so long - they are a labor of love. The batch was started last year. Good news we should have plenty to last a while and have another batch already in process since they take so long to make.

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Gotta love it when people go out of their way trying to find a problem with anything they possibly can... Even when they have no idea what they are looking at. That mark is on every unit, some cameras pick it up more than others. This is a combined effect of the surface heat treatment of the flange, coupled to the DLC process. Why don't you see that mark on others products? Because they are not heat treated.

Thanks for the excellent explanation, Charles and Jake. Jake, I view it as a great opportunity to get ppl understand the IMS Solution more.

I'm ashamed to admit that for a split second, I wondered why you'd bother to heat-treat the flange. Being stupid hurts sometimes...

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If that was directed at me, it was merely a curious question and nothing more. But of course you're used to having people bash you so it is understandable that you would have that mentality.

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I was wondering what that too, Always colorful Jake good to see you have the same attitude you had when you were on Pelican doing the 912E thing back in the day

More photos of the IMS Solution. The ring filer and the ARP rod bolts are also here now. Close-up of the flange showing the two oil holes. Another view. The center stud, the inside bearing, spacer, and the snap ring all installed already. Showing 2 of the 3 oil grooves (120 degree apart) on the inside of the bearing. Another view A very solid and well made ring filer from Summit racing. ARP rod bolts

Ahsai, I am only an hour away from you, LMK if you need a "Go Fer"

^Thanks Kromdom...will keep that in mind. Adjustable ring squaring tool....very solid The bottom view.

Very impressed... All the machined parts and tools look incredible; looks like this engine will be "bulletproof" :-) Enjoy it... Cheers,

Does the flange its self have any rotational forces on it or does it just hold the bearing? If it just holds the bearing then I wonder why the DLC? I've used DLC in suspension components for years, but only as a friction/sticktion reducer

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The flange is the wear surface, for longitudinal and rotational loads. Using DLC on these components is done primarily for cold start wear. After 5,200 start cycles, a DLC coated flange had zero measurable or visual wear. DLC adds a ton of cost to these products, but it's worth it. I did all the development and I know what changes it made. All DLC is not the same, we tried 3 companies and 6 different profiles before deciding which to utilize. It's overkill, and overkill is just right.

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I'm aware of its properties, hence me asking if the flange sees any rotational forces. Years ago DLC and TiN coats used to be cheap. But a prices have gone through the roof.

The silver plain bearing inside the shaft is solid and has no moving parts in it. It's fixed to the shaft by the snap ring. When the shaft rotates, that bearing rotates against the stationary flange.

Wow! I just read through this whole thread. A ton of great info and am anxious to see Ashai's completed results. I'm not too far north of you as well so willing to help if you need it (doesn't look like it though!) or join up for a get together just to see your work. I have not experienced an engine failure but my car's PO did and replaced the whole engine with an IMSB "fix" but don't know from where. I'm trying to get the maintenance records so I know what was done. I am a hot rod guy and also owned numerous Corvettes. While all cars have issues compared to my other cars, these 996's seam to be very problematic. I love the car and it is a blast to drive (it could use a bit more power though) and I'd like to keep it for many years but am concerned about the motor. From some of the "debates" on here, it is unclear as to whether the IMSB fix actually works or not. My car has 65K miles and only 25K miles on the engine. I think I will do the spin on oil filter and drain plug swap but is there anything else that can be done to ensure engine life longevity? I wonder what the actual percentage failure rate is? Am I being overly worrisome (just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they ain't out to get you! )? I read every post here thinking that if my engine blew I'd want to tackle a similar build. And as a hot rod guy, of course I'd want to do performance upgrades while doing the rebuild (thus making it even less reliable? ). All of these questions have probably been addressed here before but I figured this thread is already 35 pages long so what's a few more posts going to hurt? Anyway, good luck with the build Ashai. Are you planning to do any other work to the car after the engine is done? And thanks to all who have posted very knowledgeable information here.

^Thanks! You said "...replaced the whole engine with an IMSB "fix" but don't know from where..." I think the first step is find out as much about the engine and IMSB "fix" as possible. Without knowing both, it's hard to say anything about them. There are may sources of engines. Could be a crate engine from Porsche, a used one, or a "rebuilt" one. The same goes for IMSB "fixes". I think you have a '99 from your earlier posts and as you know '99 has its own problems like cracked head (cyl #1) so there's really no guarantee. No one knows the true % of IMS failure. The best you can do is do all PM and as much corrective mods you could to minimize the risks. Mag drain plug and spin-on filters are always good. Also oil and filter change every 5k miles/6 months with good oil is good too. The car (sans the engine) is in great shape and it only needs a few minor things...will see once I can drive it

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Would you say the DLC is the primary reason why the Solution can survive without oil so long? Also did you ever test the Solution without oil until it failed? I don't know if you've ever mentioned that before.

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It's not just the DLC that makes the unit work. The 4 series alloy we ended up going with for the bushing material lends it's self to this application better than any other. Also there's a ton of oil in this region, and the parts stay wet with oil all the time, at start up they see oil immediately from splash as well as the delivered oil from the hose. Yes, I did run the IMS Solution with no pressure fed oil. I'll share the pics and video later today. The unit never did fail, and the wear was not significant at all considering that it ran 1-7K RPM for 20 miles and a dyno session.

996 with proper IMS repair is a BARGAIN...they are so inexpensive - in Washington State at least....

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I do remember this but I just wasn't sure if you kept running it til failure.

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No, but I still have the parts that were used for that test, so I probably will force it to completely fail over the summer. I did force an IMS Solution to fail early on in development. It ran 31 hours with no DLC and a non- heat treated flange, with a Ampco 45 (bronze) bushing being used. That was basically a worst case materials test, it was the first, and last time I listen to a Metallurgist during this development. Here's the pics of the IMS Solution that I punished with no oil feed line fitted. Its been in 5 engines so far. This was 7,000 RPM over and over again, as well as lots of idle time, and 20 miles of street driving. The wear on the flange is nil, the scratches are not measurable, nor can they be felt with your finger. The bushing also looks worse than it is, after it was cleaned up, and measured it had only .002" of wear in the worst spot. Again, this did NOT FAIL and can be cited to another engine right now, if I wanted.

That's pretty impressive. It's almost like the splash lubrication is "almost" enough to satisfy the conditions, with the oil line being there to pickup the slack as a backup. I know this isn't the case though but it seems like the oil line isn't as crucial as I originally thought in keeping this thing alive.

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The oil line is critical, BUT the engine does not die immediately if the oil line is compromised. I did this for one reason, to prove that some clown that sits in his den, recording himself on YouTube couldn't be more wrong. People like him are lost, people that listen to him are even more lost.

Jake mentioned in a 997 thread that a wrong pin offset can contribute to bore scoring. Naturally I was curious so I measured the wrist pin offset and see how much are we talking about here. See post #107 here https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...-engine-8.html I found that the offset is toward (closer to) the exhaust side for 0.5mm ((59.54 - 58.53)/2). Since the offset should be toward the thrust side and the same piston is used for all of our cylinders, bank 1 has the correct pin offset while bank 2 has the unfavorable pin offset...just like Jake explained. Seems this has been a problem with older VWs and 911. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-e...in-offset.html http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=346211 So how do Nickies and JE pistons solve this? JE pistons have no offset and their skirts are coated. Also, the cylinder to piston clearance was chosen such that it doesn't cause issues in cold weather.

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What, you didn't believe me? Lol! Told ya so... This offset only makes sense to a corporate accounting team. Having an offset only helps if both banks have an offset that lends it's self to positive results. In this scenario we have an offset that have a correct offset on bank 1, and an *** backwards offset on bank 2. Note how much offset we are talking here, that's a huge offset! Couple that to an 82.8mm stroke, and the shorter rod coupled to that crankshaft, and you have accentuated mid bore wear by design, due to the steeper rod angle. Never read about that before, huh? Never heard of that before, huh?

"What, you didn't believe me? Lol! Told ya so... This offset only makes sense to a corporate accounting team. Having an offset only helps if both banks have an offset that lends it's self to positive results. In this scenario we have an offset that have a correct offset on bank 1, and an *** backwards offset on bank 2. Note how much offset we are talking here, that's a huge offset! Couple that to an 82.8mm stroke, and the shorter rod coupled to that crankshaft, and you have accentuated mid bore wear by design, due to the steeper rod angle. Never read about that before, huh? Never heard of that before, huh? Sounds like Porsche engineered in certain failure - hopefully past the warrantee period...

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Lol, I believe you but a pic is worth a thousand words. I've heard of it before from yourself and Charles but for some reason after the engine rebuild class my impression was there's either no or insignificant offset. Your recent posts just made me revisit this issue. I already have a clean piston lying on my bench so why not just measure it. So obviously this is another money-saving decision. Do the Mezger engines use different pistons between the banks and have the correct offset?

That's why I love your posts Ashai. I don't discount or don't believe what Jake has to say but he hardly ever posts the pudding ( don't take that the wrong way, Jake) you do and that is what will convince most people of the truth on these motors.

Don't think Jake will bother but I'm looking forward to a video of him leaving an opened engine block and piston in the snow overnight. Then the next morning swing a 3lb hammer at it to knock the seized piston out of the block

Amazing machine work! New valve guides, seals, springs, and intake seats, stage I port work. All cleaned, pressure tested, cc'ed and decked. Clean and shiny Beautifully finished deck. So clean! Shiny exhaust ports. Beautiful port work and new valve guides. You can see the new springs and seals. With the lifter cradle. Amazing cleaning process. This is a BEFORE photo, already after soda blasted. Compare this with the last photo. This is a BEFORE photo.

See all the metal shavings? The cases came with a yellow tag saying you must clean the case thoroughly. Metal shavings (expected). I shine a light on the coolant return path. You can see the 3 holes where the coolant flows up from the cylinders and returns to the water pump.

It's beautiful! So shiny. The Nickies look really solid. When does it start going back together?

Ahsai, What are your work benches coated with?

And thanks for showing everyone what you get from the good old USA for your money, I wonder how it compares to work from Poland?

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Can we not drag that in here please? This is an awesome and detailed thread and would suck to get it interrupted with 5-10 pages of Martin vs Jake.

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I wonder what it would take to get Martin and Kibort soapboxing in the same thread. After the latter is back from a ban of course. But you are right, it would be vandalism to have it happen here.

Beautiful!

The next stage is filing and fitting the rings. Hope to be able to start assembly in June. My bench came like that. It's some sort of anti-slip plastic coating. I like it. Stock photos of the set I got:

Good luck Ashai, thank you for your post,

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They were probably made in Poland. Absolutely just kidding.....go on...

Time consuming but it's actually quite fun. I'm just doing some preliminary checking today so no ring grinding yet.

You paid attention in class to my 72 degree rule when doing measurements... It needs to be at 72 for 24 hours to normalize completely!

Yes but being in the garage there would be some variation in a 24 hr window. I just want to get a feel and some reading today. Will bring the case inside the house and Set the thermo to 72F.

Piston inserted upside down. Oil rings only. Piston, rings, and cylinder fully lubricated The scale I use. Works like a charm. From left to right: oil rings, 2nd ring, top ring.

Btw, despite the high quality rings, one of the top rings have burrs on its ends that would have scratched the bore. I deburred it and it's fine. Got to be really careful.

Two things. Is that metal polish used on a motor that's gonna get dirty anyway, or is it for something else? Do you wear gloves when you work on cars, cause your hands look very nice. Lol

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It's for polishing my hands lol Seriously, that's for polishing my used snapy wrenches.

BTW, no gloves when working on the engine so you really need a clean pair of manicured hands

Here's what the rings look like when magnified 30 times. Brand new out of the box. The top ring. Note the small chamfer at the outer edge. Also a ridge in the middle of the outer edge. Same top ring top view. 2nd ring. No chamfer. 90 degree corners. 2nd ring ends butt together. Oil ring. Note the round outer edge and a small chamfer.

This is one of my favourite threads, thanks for taking the time to post all the details and pics

What process was used to clean the cylinder heads? Ultrasonic I'm guessing?? Also, how do you plan to clean the block of the metal filings? Just a solvent bath or something fancier than that?

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Thanks! I believe Len used a hot tank and possibly soda blast. I'll see if he wants to chime in here. For the engine case, I used simple green precision cleaner (designed for aluminum and aircrafts) and a garden hose to pressure wash all the openings and crevices plus I cleaned every hole with these brushes: http://m.summitracing.com/parts/mrg-...obileSwitchYes Also rotated the engine case in all directions to let gravity and water flush out all the loose bits.

Here's what Len said about the cleaning process: "We ultrasonic clean and media blast after we close off galleys and water jackets. We use an aluminum specific media, mostly on the ex ports and outer surfaces that get exposed to the elements. The ultrasonic cleaning is the ultimate clean. The heated solution opens the pores to let in the detergent and the high power sound waves, yielding a clean that goes beneath the surface. We do it several times throughout the rebuilding process, including as a pre-assembly wash. The state of clean is the best I've ever seen for pre-assembly, and it really allows the natural shine of the parts to come through, too. Love our big ultrasonic cleaner!"

Just weighed all the JE pistons, wrist pins, wrist pin clips and rings. All have pretty good tolerance. Pistons: 400.6g ~ 401.8g (delta = 1.2g ) Pins: 89g ~ 89.3g (delta = 0.3g) Rings: 28.8g ~ 29.1g (delta = 0.3g) 2 clips: 1.9g ~ 2.0g (delta = 0.1g) If I mix the heavier pistons with the lighter pins, I should be able to only remove at most 0.7g to balance them between pistons. Each new pin weighs ~10g less than the stock pin. JE pistons Wrist pins Rings Stock piston + rod Stock piston + one wrist pin clip Stock wrist pin JE piston on a lesser scale

I weighted the stock pistons and rods and they have pretty good tolerance too. The stock pistons (with rings) differ by at most 1.2g and the rods differ by at most 0.5g. The ARP bolts differ by 0.2g so I can compensate the 0.5g some. I also measured the little end and big end of the rods but I can only get their sum to within 1.5g of the acutal weight of the rod. Not sure how accurate and useful the measurements are. Measuring the big end

Damn Ahsai, are you building a race motor? Nice job on the blueprinting skills.

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I'd like to think I am!

Great attention to detail. Ahsai will be rewarded for these efforts. Assai, send me a link for that fish scale, and the jig for doing the small end balancing. People are always asking me for those two items, and I really like that fish scale. I'd like to include these in my new Knowledge Gruppe technical directives for these practices.

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Thanks Jake! Here are the links: Amazon.com: Weston 20 Pound Spring and Hook Scale: Kitchen & Dining Amazon.com: Weston 20 Pound Spring and Hook Scale: Kitchen & Dining http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-66844/overview/ The cool thing about the scale is it has a sliding peg that registers the maximum pulling force while you pull. I originally planned to send these out for balancing but later realized that I'll have to verify the work afterwards anyway...may as well diy I also checked with Charles and now know exactly where to trim mass off the JE pistons.

very cool. thanks for sharing. while I had all my stuff balanced at the machine shop, it's still nice to see this stuff.

Impressive documentation my friend. So I breezed through 13 earlier pages of this thread but couldn't find if you are increasing displacement or not. Before my eyeballs fall out I figured I would ask... Sticking with 3.6 or 3.8 or 4.0? Also I always assumed the Forged JE pistons were lighter than stock, but your weights are practically identical, heavier by a gram or so. I see you mentioned you will trim weight off them, how many grams you think? Thanks again for continuing to update the thread. I know most of us here are fascinated by a competent DIY rebuild. (taking into account you took Raby's class) I know I am.

Ahead was a great attendee in the class... He took great notes and asked great questions. The class gives direction, and assembly order more than anything. The "Silver bullets" that people take home with them make the difference. In the next couple of months being a DIY'r is going to get cheaper, and easier, with real support. Just wait.

He's going with a 3.8 iirc

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haha. awesome - just in time for initial start up

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AWDGuy is right. I'm building a 3.8. You're correct the JE pistons weigh as much as the stock pistons. HOWEVER, you forgot about the wrist pins The JE pins are 10g lighter than stock! Not grams but a fraction of a gram - 0.1g, 0.2g, 0.3g, 0.3g, and 0.7g off the 5 pistons...really minimal and arguably academic. A small paper clip (steel) is about 0.4g and since steel is about 3 times as dense as aluminum, volume wise it will be 3 times to remove the same amount of weight. BTW, the stock rods are actually quite balanced already (within 0.5g of each other) so I'll just use the natural weight variation of the ARP rod bolts and new rod bearings to balance them even further. The ARP bolts themselves already have 0.2g variation. Thanks Jake. The class definitely helps a lot. Cheaper DIY? So is Nickies dropping in price? I hope my engine doesn't depreciate even before it's built haha Let me guess, maybe Nickies with stock rebuilt pistons with a subscription based m96 engine rebuild hotline?

Jake has baited us with : "In the next couple of months being a DIY'r is going to get cheaper, and easier, with real support. Just wait." So let the speculation begin ! 1. He will at last publish the M96 book? 2. He will emulate 'Motor Meister' on Youtube and open his own video channel devoted to all Raby engine work 3. He will follow the Herballife business model and appoint agents everywhere 4........

I noticed the wrist pin weight. My 3.8 absolutely rips. You're going have a nice torquey engine when it's completed. 300 or close. Mine pulled 298 rwtq during break in. Only bolt on mod being 200 cell cats.

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He's buying MBM to turn it around and offer a value line of products. The first one will be U Build It M96 franchises. :P

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Really hope so! that's a good one!

Directives about what you need, and etc, along with subscription based support from The Knowledge Gruppe are part of something that will change the game. This has ZERO to do with Flat 6, our our engines.. Nothing. It will alter nothing at Flat 6, and all I can say is I am privy to insider information, since my company The Knowledge Gruppe, and my team of technicians, and consultants the comprise it have been contracted to offer support, and technical directives/ assistance.

[QUOTE=Hardback;13325963]Impressive documentation my friend. So I breezed through 13 earlier pages of this thread but couldn't find if you are increasing displacement or not. Before my eyeballs fall out I figured I would ask... Sticking with 3.6 or 3.8 or 4.0? Also I always assumed the Forged JE pistons were lighter than stock, but your weights are practically identical, heavier by a gram or so. Are you forgetting the larger bore size adds weight ?

I've spent a couple of days calibrating, improving and modifying the jig so now I can measure the little end and big end within 0.1g accuracy repeatedly. It turns out even though the jig uses roller bearings, their friction is still too much so I could only measure the little end and big end within 1.0 to 1.5g before, which is useless as we're talking about a fraction of a gram here for balancing. The goal of static balancing is to match the reciprocating mass and the rotating mass separately so you need to be able to weigh the little end and the big end of each rod separately and accurately. You know your jig works perfectly when the sum of the little end and big end add up to the actual weight of the rod, and you get repeatable measurements. The following are the maximum mass variations among the 6 rod/piston sets between the stock and the JE setup (JE pistons, rings, pins and ARP rod bolts). Metric: Stock/JE =========================== Little end: 1.7g/0.7g Big end (rotating mass): 1.1g/0.7g Whole rod with rod bolts: 0.6g/0.8g Piston+rings+pin+clip: 1.2g/0.6g Rod+rod bolts + piston+rings+pin+clips: 1.4g/0.5g Reciprocating mass*: 1.9g/0.9g *Reciprocating mass = little end + piston+rings+pin+clips+rod bolts As you can see, the JE setup with careful matching of the different components can achieve a much tighter tolerance than the stock setup. Conversely, if you just randomly pair up the pins, pistons, rods, rod bolts, etc. your tolerance can stack up very quickly, which will need a lot of material trimming to balance them at the end. To put things in perspective, a piece of letter size paper is ~4.3g.

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[QUOTE=Byprodriver;13326978] No I wasn't aware if OP was installing larger bore/pistons at the time of the post. I see now that its going to be the 3.8.

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Yes and hope it's gonna be as strong as yours! Do you have any intake and exhaust mods btw? Not much under your sig.

Yes I have Fabspeed 200 cell Xpipe, BMC filter, resonator bypassed in stock airbox. Coupled with PSE it sounds mean above 4000. Beyond coilovers and camber plates the rest of my mods are mostly for weight reduction.

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Very nice! Will think more after I rebuild the engine successfully.

Some of you may wonder why I chose to tackle this job as opposed to giving it to the machine shop. I have a few reasons but the major ones are: - I wanted to go through it and see what is involved and how tricky it is. - If you inspect the JE piston and the stock rods and hold them in your hands, you will realize there are not many places to trim weight without jeopardizing integrity. So my goal was to juggle the parts and see without grinding, how close I can get. All the parts have natural weight variations (a fraction of a gram) due to manufacturing. Every single gram counts. The whole process is VERY tricky because you need to be able to separate the rotational weight and the reciprocating weight. You need to be able to measure the little end or big end of the rod accurately that is repeatable also. Also when you add more weight to the big end, the little end will weigh less. I use the following metrics to judge how balance everything is: - Little end weight (part of the reciprocating weight) - Big end weight (rotational weight) - Total rod weight with bearing shells and ARP bolts installed - Total piston weight with rings, pins, etc. installed - Reciprocating weight = little end + total piston weight - Piston + rod overall weight So the goal is to match the pistons to different pins, rings, ARP bolts, bearing shells, circlips to minimize the variation of the above metrics between bores. It involved heurestic and some Matlab code for fine tuning. At the end here's what I got and I'm pretty happy: - Little end within 0.4g - Big end within 0.3g - Total rod within 0.6g - Total piston (with rings, pins, etc installed) within 0.6g - Reciprocating weight (LE + piston) within 0.4g - Rod + piston within 0.2g Clean rods with genuine bearings and ARP bolts installed for balancing.

That is amazing!

Awesome!

I'm looking to buy a 911 and, taken roughly, it seems that there is a choice between the air-cooled and the water-cooled versions of the engine. From a sanity-check point of view, spending $15 or $20K on a water-cooled engine because they seem to have a high failure rate has the unfortunate potential of taking the fun out of owning a sports car. I find an inordinate number ads showing 911s with engine problems. I'm now thinking that the air-cooled 911s might be a better choice. I love all 911s, but setting reserves for a potential repair cost equal to another car is something I'd rather avoid. The next step is to look at the earlier 911s and learn what heartaches exist there. Sincerely, Carl via Dragon Dictate

This thread has been an entirely entertaining, educational, helpful and getting all the "inside" information from Ahsai's posts, plus the fact he is undertaking this project and sharing every thing, until now - CARL. Please move your post and start your own thread so we can rail at your idiot comments there. Thanks.

Ahsai- That's very cool! I am involved with rotating equipment for a living, so I find it very interesting. Thanks for posting!

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Carl, Purchase the style 911 you like, but the air cooled isn't going to save you a dime. Ten years ago you could buy a very very nice 1986 911 for the low $20k range. Today that same car is $40k minimum. The cost of the air cooled car will be $20K more at least, than a 996. I see air cooled 911s with well over 100k miles asking high 30's to low 40's. And they don't seem to indicate a recent engine rebuild, which, if you're looking at a car with 140k miles (pre 1990), it's going to need one so add another $8,000 to the price. If you are a IMSB worrier, avoid it. Buy a turbo. I personally LOVE all the IMSB insanity, it allowed me to purchase a 2002 Porsche 911 at a VERY reasonable price.

DBJoe996, I agree that it has been educational and Asahi's efforts are admirable. I am only observing, as someone new to the Porsche intricacies, that the costs are higher than I would have otherwise imagined. I still love the 911. Sincerely, Carl

edjoherty, I'm not worried about costs, just surprised. Agreed, one will pay for the 911 in form or another. I didn't realize that Porsche engine overhauls costs as much as some small aircraft engines to rebuild. If the IMS is the only shortcoming to the engine and there's a fix for it, then a repurchase inspection seems prudent and then have it retrofitted straight away. Carl

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The air cooled engines have problems too, ask me how I know. Researching both, Id take a 996 over an air cooled engine. Porsches cost now or later...do the research and get a decent PPI and you should be fine.

As requested, please do not hijack this thread. Here is a brand new thread to debate Carl's questions. Please use it instead. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...y-a-911-a.html

Ahsai, I'm just impressed that you know about and use Matlab!! And, to the Other Carl, have you priced a new specialty crate engine from GM? They're only about $2-3k less than an M96, and that's close enough for me. The IMS bearing issues are a very small percentage of the overall 996 fleet. Remember also that you only hear about problems, never successes. Read the IMS bearing sticky at the top to see how many enthusiasts have had zero problems.

Nice work, that should idle so smooth you can balance a nickle on its side while it running.

Back to your regular program I've added photos showing where Porsche milled off material to balance the rods. Also photos of the JE piston which is very lean (light weight for its size so it's quite optimized and have no excess material to trim off). Where the factory milled the big end to get it balanced Factory trimmed another area on the big end Side view, not a whole lot of material in that area. Side view, not a whole lot of material in that area. Little end. No trimming from factory Not a whole lot of material if one needs to trim Lean and mean precision JE pistons. The pistons are within 1.3g of each other. Another angle. The only "safe" place to trim off weight Another angle. Side view. Not a whole lot of material can be removed. An aluminum bar simulating how much to trim off 0.2g. It started with a right angle edge before trimming. Imagine removing that much from the piston in the background, granted the piston uses higher density aluminum but still

Just dropped the crank/FW/pressure plate to my machine shop for balancing. They will balance those to 1 oz-in., which seems to the industry standard. $280 for that and it doesn't even require bob weights...um not cheap. Somehow I suspect my stock crank is already balanced to that degree if not better. I showed the machinist my piston/rod balancing numbers and he said they look great and are as good as they get.

Edit: These tools DO NOT WORK so DO NOT BUY this toolkit! The delrin rod is 0.003" larger than the wrist pin so it won't fit into the piston nor the con rod! Totally useless. The black steel pipe 2" end piece where the wrist pin clip is supposed to be mounted is also too large so it won't pass through the engine access hole!

I'm curious what CR the 3.8 has and Len told me my head chamber is 39.4cc. I cc'ed the piston top dome volume and got ~20cc. I estimated the head gasket is about 0.5mm compressed so that's about 3.8cc assuming 0 deck height. So unswept volume = 39.4 + 20 + 3.8 = 63.2cc Swept volume = 637.4cc (99mm bore x 82.8mm stroke) So CR = 1 + 637.4/63.2 = 11.1 vs stock CR of 11.3 I wonder if I overlooked something or my head gasket estimate is way off. If the head gasket unswept volume is only 2cc, the CR would be 11.38 instead.

Since you have been so meticulous about everything else I might mention that the volume between the top ring and the top of the piston slightly affects the CR as well. You would have thought that with the larger bore and the heads have probably now been cut (?) that the CR would have gone up, not down.

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Yeah, I did estimate that top ring volume but it was less than 0.2cc so that wouldn't change the CR much. Besides, the CR will go down if you add any more unswept volume. Yeah, I would think the CR goes up too but the JE piston top is quite different than the stock piston so that could add more unswept volume to bring down the CR despite the enlarged bores and machined heads.

When cutting the heads, unless specified, the minimum is removed from the surface. This is typically .001", unless the head is twisted. This will make almost no difference in CR thats measurable. That said, the factory CR is also not whats advertised.

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Thanks Jake. So are you saying my numbers are in the right ball park but the actual stock cr is lower than 11.3?

For California fuel, you are spot on. Any higher, and your knock sensors will get a real workout.

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Did you use the glass and burette method?

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Great. That's all I need to know.

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I don't want to invest in a burette since it's just somethimg I'm curious about, not that I can change and tune that number. I sealed up the side and top of the piston volume then put the piston on top of my digital scale. Then I weighed the water needed to fill the void. The scale reads 0.1g (0.1cc).

I use isopropyl alcohol for measuring volumes.

^Will keep that in mind if I get a burette.

So I removed the fuel injectors and plan to send them out for cleaning. When I removed the cyl #1 injector, I found a small piece of chewed up plastic INSIDE the fuel rail. 1/4" x 1/"4, enough to block the injector inlet. I wonder how it got there. It wasn't introduced by me for sure as I capped off the fuel line connector as soon as I disconnected it. It's white soft plastic. Any one knows what it is and how it got there? Needless to say, I borescoped both fuel rails to make sure there is no more foreign matter. I wonder if Cringely ever had any intermittent misfires on cyl #1 The bank 1 fuel rail end cap The plastic in the upper part Blown up Out of the fuel rail. WTH it came from??? Injectors ready to be sent out for cleaning

There are 6 piston sprayers that live inside the crank carrier housing. They are supposed to open and spray the bottom of the piston/bore whenever the oil pressure is greater than 1.5bar (~22 PSI). Below that pressure, they are closed. I tested the old ones with oil and hand pump. All of them open up at the right pressure but one opened at 5PSI (between cyl #4 & 5) with a very poor spraying and half dribbling. Since oil pressure is above 1 bar at all times, this sprayer was spraying/leaking oil! It seems it didn't create any damage though maybe because the nozzles are really tiny. Anyway, bought 6 new ones. Pressure tested them to make sure they work out of the box. BTW, also got a great 6-pack coil deal from Warehouse33 (Thanks Jason!) Excellent communication, customer service, and fast shipping. Highly recommended. Old sprayers New sprayers New coil Made in Germany

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I think I know what that piece of white plastic is.

Make sure they flow match them too. Probably automatic for them buy it pays to check.

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Seems it's extra. I'll check with them. Thanks! http://www.witchhunter.com/injectorserv1.php

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Not that I know of. Engine ran smooth and I didn't seem to experience hesitation on acceleration. P.S., I am truly impressed with Ahsai's efforts. That should be one fantastic motor when finished.

^^^ +1

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Hello Cringely! Was testing if you're still reading this thread I think that piece of plastic is a piece shaved off the bottom of the previous coolant tank! The color and texture matched. Most likely someone unbolted that big hex cap on the bank 1 fuel rail to get more clearance when removing the coolant tank. When wiggling the tank out, unknowingly the opened cap bung scraped off a piece from the tank bottom and the piece fell into the rail. That explained why the piece looks like chewed up. That piece laid right on top of the #1 injector inlet when I removed the injector. It was definitely blocking the injector flow but probably not enough to cause issues. If it had stayed deeper in the fuel rail and not visible, I would have missed it. I think I was lucky.

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Thanks guys. Btw, I dodged another bullet and will post soon. Jake is absolutely right when he said we need to have a combative mind when dealing with these engines as if they were trying to kill you (your wallet).

So what happens at hot idle when pressure is below 1.5 bar is it just splash/ mist lubrication for the bores until revs increase and the pressure comes up ?

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That is correct. It's actually 1.8 bar and here's what Porsche says in the 1999 Service Info material: "The engine has oil-spray nozzles, used for cylinder cooling to reduce the piston temperature. The injection nozzles are inserted in the bearing case. The nozzles have an opening pressure of 1.8 bar. This ensures that the engine oil pressure is retained at low engine speeds and high engine oil temperatures.

...

Thanks Ahsai!

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Cracks in the drive slot?

^Looks like it slipped^ (look at the marks left by the original bolt positions)...Dodged a bullet indeed!!!

Somebody splashed yellow paint on it? JK....yeah, cracks in the drive slot. ^^^ oh I see that now! Slipped...good catch.

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Goodness me. One more thing I don't want to think about.

I'm really surprised they use slots for the fasteners? Must be a "one size fits all" Porsche cam sprocket

Yup, I asked the machine shop to magnaflux them. They found cracks on the bank 1 cam sprocket, caused by metal ingestion in the bank 1 scavenge pump. Just ordered a new one from Sunset - $160 for a freaking sprocket The slots are for adjusting the cam timing. Also got my rotating assembly back from the machine shop. They said it's balanced to 1g-in (0.03 oz-in). I asked if they meant 1oz-in but they said it's really 1g-in. Sounds too good to be true?

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I feel like I've read this thread 5 times, but still can't recall - what was your original failure attributed to again?

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I sent in the failed IMS, IMSB, all the timing chains, and all the debris I found to LN for further analysis and their conclusion was the failure was due to stretched timing chain between the crankshaft and the IMS. The bank 1 scavenge pump ingested the debris and was chewed up inside. That put a lot of pressure and shock on the bank 1 cam sprocket that drove it.

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I mean, that's just bad luck, right? Nothing you could have done differently to avoid this kind of failure?

Ahsai I got a spare cam sprocket from my original engine could have posted over to you, is it too late to cancel your order?? I'm in uk so might take a week or so to reach you though??

I don't think the timing slipped, if you look at the paint on the right hand bolt it lines up with the paint on the sprocket, I think this engine has had its timing reset before at some point, the mark you see was probably the original factory setting but I'm pretty sure it's been changed at some point?? Doesn't the paint indicate an engine returned to the factory under warranty for rebuilding or was that blue paint, I read that somewhere ?? Wonder if Porsche recorded the engine numbers or recalled cars and details??

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IIRC, the blue paint was from the factory, when an engine was inspected and returned to the line because it wasn't up to snuff.

Sorry for the suspense. The yellow paint was put on by my machine shop to show me where the cracks are. They removed it from the cam to magnaflux it and put it back on the cam randomly hence the random bolt locations. The failure was probably due to bad luck but the only way to prevent timing chain failure is to replace them. Noz, thanks for your offer but I think I'm good for now as I ordered it last week and it's already on its way.

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When do people generally do such a replacement, out of curiosity?

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Jake offes a preventive maintenance package that includes changing out the timing chains (the ones between the crank and the cams) w/o splitting the block. In this case though, it's the ims chain that's between the crank and the ims and that requires splitting the engine case to replace so most likely it only makes sense if you're doing a full engine rebuild.

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Stop driving the car when the noise 1st started!

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The noise being...

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Check out post #44.

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I'm trying but damn the RL app sucks. Crashes every other time I load a page. Ok, checked on web site. Rocks in hubcap sound = bad.

I'm testing each component before fitting it if possible. This round is the thermostat. I tossed them into a frying pan and measured the water temp with a very accurate thermometer (+/- 1F accuracy). The LTT starts to opens at ~165F and is fully opened at ~179F. My stock one opens at ~180F and it's fully opened at 206F. LN LTT starts to open at 165F LN LTT fully opened at 179F Stock thermo already opened at 193F Stock fully opened at 206F

That's cool!

And proof that a low temp stat is a good mod,

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Although I've been using it on my other ('03) 996, this is the first time I see it in action.

Funny. I posted the exact same specs as early as 2008 and all I got was disbelief and friction. No one listens.

Prepped the engine case by drilling a hole that can fit a 1/2" socket to tighten the oil line fitting on the flange. It's a very well built part, so sturdy. The flange is so heavy I feel tired just by holding it Will dry fit the IMS Solution spin-on adapter once I receive the special spanner socket to tighten it onto the engine case. Once tightened to the specified torque, its oil output port needs to face the right direction for the hose. If it's not, one will need to add a shim to correct the orientation. The shims come in different thickness depending on the correction angle needed and can be obtained from LN Engineering free of charge. Hole drilled 1/2" socket with no binding With the fitting on

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Ppl need and love pics Don't think anyone questioned the specs...the debate has always been around its benefits.

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It is not the specs that were questioned it is the claim that the lower temperature T-stat is actually good for the engine, make that better for the engine than the stock/factory T-stat. I have posted a chart of engine temperature vs. wear and engine wear increases as engine temperature drops. I won't post the entire chart again but in a 60 hour engine test with the engine at 210F engine wear was 0.0003" with a fuel consumption of 2.8gph. At 180F engine wear increased to 0.0005" and fuel consumption increased to 2.9gph. Lower temperatures are given and to save typing time just let me say that engine wear and fuel consumption both increase as engine temperature goes down. Also, I have to note that installing a lower temperature T-stat affects the emissions of the engine. With all the attention back on emissions compliance the VW emissions scandal has produced and the increased attention to emsisions I'm not sure this is a wise modification to be recommending. It could run afoul of the emissions rules/regulations.

Those studies have also been carried out. This was done as early as 2007 when developing my engine program, and ensuring that emissions compliance would be a possibility all across the USA. What the goal was, from the beginning, was to reduce thermal shock when the T stat opened, and the best way to do this was to open the unit at an earlier temperature. The byproduct was to keep the system at a temperature where the cylinders want to run. All studies concerning some other engine, need not apply. If there were issues with wear, or emissions compliance, you'd hear about it by now. Many of my engines have been in service for a decade or more, and have had enough emissions tests to prove themselves. More than 20,000 of these T stats have been sold. Ever read of a complaint? Remember, 10% of people are impossible to please, anyway.

Only 10%?!

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Sounds like people do listen. They just aren't always the one's that post. It would be interesting to know what percentage of Rennlist "Addicts" post on a regular basis. I bet it's low single digits.

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I'm with you. Hardly any of my purchasers post here. Lots of them do read here, though... I can tell because they bring things up to me that are mentioned here, and no where else.

Jake, Thanks for posting that you've considered the wear and emissions aspects of your lower temp tstat. Good. As I've read all the posts about users who've advocated the lower temp, I actually *did* notice that, from what I've read HERE, there have been no complaints. Which is why I posted my questions in the coolant temp thread. Please remember, the RL community has a wide range of experience, and we're basically just trying to help each other. Well, there's a few characters thrown in there, but in general, we're helpful. Some have great levels of experience in Porsches, some have with other makes. Those of us who've had negative experiences with lower temp tstats IN OTHER VEHICLES are only trying to understand the differences in our Porsches, and understand that there *are* differences. I fully accept that there are solutions contrary to "other" implementations, but again, some of us just want to know *why*. I'm sure if I posted that pissing in my gas tank increased HP by 10%, SOME would try it themselves based only on my post, and SOME would call shenanigans and ask a question or two. YOU sound like you check stuff out to verify first. Can we?

It's very simple. The coolant temperature inside the M96 engine is not very even, leading to hotter spots on the bank 2 thrust side (the sky side). The LTT lowers the temp of the whole system to create more headroom for the bank 2 thrust side. If heat load is added suddenly (e.g., WOT after a long stop light), there's still room to tolerate the heat increase. In the M96 engine, the water pump pushes the coolant from the bottom of the engine to the top of the engine so by the time the coolant reaches the bank 2 thrust side, the coolant is already quite warm so it has less capability to carry the extra heat away from the thrust side. Bank 1 is the opposite because the thrust side of bank 1 is at the bottom (the ground side) so everything is good. Another point is the thermostat is submerged in both the coolant coming back from the radiators (cooled) and the coolant coming out of the top of the engine. So any sudden heat increase from the cylinders will be averaged out by the cooler return coolant from the radiator and that makes the thermostat less responsive to open up.

EXCELLENT description, and it makes sense. Thanks much for sharing!

My pleasure! I LOVE things that make sense. I learned a lot by tracing the coolant flow inside the engine case, heads, and the front console (oil pump) so now I understand the whole cooling system routing.

Tools are courtesy of LN. Thanks Charles! Will dry fit the filter adaptor later and see if any shim is needed to align the output port. The pins fit into the holes on the adaptor Now it can be torqued by a regular socket The deep socket is for the center 12-pt nut

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So if everything is good, why is bank 1 always the piston slapper? Or is bank 1 too cold

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No, the weak side and bore scoring side is bank 2 (cyl 4-6), right side of the car. Bank 2 also has a little lower oil pressure than bank 1 per Jake.

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Ahsai - thank you for the first complete and intelligent explanation of the justification for the LTT modification. Other (well intentioned) dismissals of the LTT mod ignored the unique(?) peculiarities of the M96. Those of us who actually have rebuilt this engine learned the hard way not to blindly apply conventional wisdom and old school experience to this engine. Thank you for explaining one of the many mysteries of the M96. Imagine how many engines(& wallets) may have been saved if this explanation had been available years ago.

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Oops, I thought bank 1 was the right side!

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Thanks Schnell. I can't take full credit though. A major part of this was explained in the not-easy-to-read Hartech paper. I've probably saved you 10 pages of reading highly technical writing though You will also come to the same conclusion if you take time to trace all the coolant passages inside the engine block and try to understand all the different flows. Pay close attention to the cross-sections of each passage/opening as that governs the relative amount of flow between all the parallel coolant "circuits" throughout the block and heads.

The literary language that Baz uses is very old English Grammar School.It is like reading Jane Austen. I am fluent in it indeed my first car was an Austin(Healey). But to my knowledge, nobody else has independently supported his LTT theory. I followed most of his recommendations.I was admonished by one Forum for regarding Hartech as my bible ! So your comments are a particularly significant corroboration. I presume JR agrees but I understand his reluctance to be harangued by the 'keyboard experts'. Doubtless all will be revealed when "The M96 - a Definitive Guide" is published :-)

Man, everyone's got an opinion on this. Are Low Temp Thermostats a good idea? 71 vs. 83 degree Porsche Thermostats - YouTube

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The internet is a dangerous place. It's a free country so ppl can choose what they want to believe. I'm only interested in the truth or at least a close enough version of it

Just because he makes a few diy videos ,does not make this self-publicist an M96 expert. His point of view may be valid(or not). The place to find out the truth is here where he has to debate others who may have more experience/knowledge. Despite all it's limitations Rennlist is a far more rigorous debating chamber than You Tube !

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Exactly. I'm hoping to keep this thread as technical and factual as possible. Rational discussion and info sharing are of course welcome.

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Well I felt he had a rational discussion in his video . Don't think I agree with it but good to hear other perspectives.

This is such a great thread, thanks for your efforts!

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I agree. I wanted to post this so the folks who know these engines better than the back of their hands could comment, if they felt so inclined.

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I watched the video. His view is the LTT should only be applied to 997 and not 996 because 996 is designed differently so it doesn't need the LTT. I'm glad you clarified your view. I thought you endorsed his view.

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Thanks! Glad you like it.

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I tend to agree with your assessment more, for sure. He didn't spend a weekend reading a 10 page technical document about the issue.

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His conclusion would have been very different

That tookit doesn't work so don't buy it. I've added warning in post #632. What a bummer. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l#post13371577

Spent the whole afternoon matching the rings and here's my final gap at 78F (sorry Jake, it's too hot here to get 72F). No grinding was necessary so I guess I'll just return my ring grinder. Actually I had the opposite problem that one of the top rings had too wide of a gap (more on this below). Here are my final numbers in 0.001". Cyl/top ring/2nd ring/oil rails/weight (g) 1 15 16 15/20 29.1 2 16 17 15/18 29.1 3 15 16 15/18 29.0 4 16 17 16/17 28.9 5 16 17 15/17 29.0 6 16 17 16/19 28.8 LN included 6 ring sets as part of the 3.8L Nickies package. All of the top rings have ~0.015" ring except one set, which has 0.022". LN said they had no control over the ring gap so it's luck of the draw. Charles helped by checking his ring inventory but all the top rings were also ~0.022"! The 0.007" difference was driving me crazy so I had to do something about it. I ended up buying one extra set from eBay and 2 extra sets from Cycleplicity, hoping there's at least one with the correct gap. Now I got 9 ring sets for 6 cylinders Luckily one set from Cycleplicity has one right at 0.015". I was delighted even though that's the most expensive steel I've ever bought - $90 for 0.007" BTW, the gap of these oil rings vary a lot so I measured all 18 of them and just picked the tightest ones. Overall I'm pretty happy with the numbers above. Oil rails of the 9 ring sets. Each piston needs two to scrape the oil. The numbers shown in the tags are the ring gaps in 0.001". I fitted and measured all of them one by one in a single cylinder. You can see the gap varies from 0.013" to 0.025"+ I also dry fitted the IMS Solution spin-on filter adapter and found that the output port is facing the wrong direction when tightened to the required torque spec (18 ftlb). It's about 230 degrees off so I'll need to get some shims from LN to make it right. You can see the output port at 2 o'clock position. It needs to be turned counter-clockwise to 6 o'clock Currently the output port is at about 242 degrees and it needs to be turned back to ~0 degree in this photo The threaded output port and the pin spanner. Here I installed the supplied 0.01" shim and it's good for turning it 30 degree so it's at 1 o'clock with this shim. I need a 0.08" shim. You can spot the shim if you have really good eyes. A 1-1/8" socket to turn that pin spanner. One layer of electrical tape to protect the adapter from scratch. The billet aluminum is too nice to put tools on!

Bummer about the wrist pin kit. Did you find another one yet? Also, that's pretty funny about .007". Your OCD is turning this engine into a masterpiece. Great work!

Re Kit. The Baum kit I bought was correct.

Yeah I know the Baum kit ($800+) is the proper one. I was just trying to see if there's a cheaper alternative. May try the Kommen kit next if EWK let me return this toolkit. If someone knows a good deal of the Baum kit B9612KPLUS, please let me know.

Ahsai I had the same problem with the wrist pin tool it was tight going through the block, I just took it down a little with some emery paper until it passed through freely then it was fine , my Deleon rod was ok but maybe you could do the same with this or have a machine shop put it in a lathe and take a couple of thou off, a lot cheaper than spending more money on tools to do one job, also that fat bit on the end of my wrist pin tool will come off, easier to machine just that piece. I was annoyed like you, you would think these companies would check their products work!!

Thanks Noz. I might just do that as returning it is a hassle too. For the steel pipe, I can just flip it around to use the non short piece end to mount and insert the tabless circlip. The short piece will then be pointing away from the piston so it doesn't need to pass through the engine case and the overall length is maintained. The main issue is the delrin rod, which is at least 0.003" fatter than the wrist pin! It needs to be turned down by a lathe. The whole point of getting a toolkit is to have precision ready-to-use tools...so frustrated.

Yeah, that is crappy. I didn't have issues with the baum tools fyi.

I've started putting back the engine together but before that I verified the ring taps again at 74F and also did fish scale pull on the oil rings on all cylinders. They were 8.25 to 8.75lb, which is perfect. New crank bearings, thrust bearing, IMS pin, torque-to-yield crank cradle bolts and oil jet sprayers (not visible inside the white plastic bag). All tested to open and spray at 1.5 to 2 bar All the 6 jet sprayers installed (the silver dots on the journals) Crank ready to be installed Correct thrust bearing orientation with the grooves facing the crank fillets Axial free-play @0.0055", right in the middle of the spec. New bolts New rod bearings and ARP bolts Thread greased with ARP lube supplied with the bolts. Also greased under the bolt head (not photographed) to reduce friction between the head and the crank cradle. Rod bolts exposed and torqued to 45ftlb Rods #4, 5, 6, installed

New oil scraper gaskets and encapsulated pan head bolts IMS and the IMS Solution unbelievable courtesy of LN Engineering! Thanks, Charles!! New LN billet IMS paddle, IMS chain guide, 3 bolts with captured washers, one washer, one c-clip, IMS chain and two timing chains, All purchased from LN Engineering. All the parts installed and ready to be dropped to the bank 1 engine case. Note the whole assembly was moved to a hydraulic table (got from harborfrieght) getting ready to be lifted. The flywheel end The crank pulley end

This task requires two people as the assembly is heavy and you need precision to mate the two and not damage the soft aluminum case. 4 used head bolts used as handles Two long bolts were inserted to bolt down the assembly at the flywheel side (not shown). Two 1/2" deep sockets with rubber washer were used on the crank pulley side. Now the assembly can be rotated safely on the engine stand

LN Engineering 3.8L pistons. Beautiful! The best ring compressor! All 3 pistons installed in the 3.8L Nickies Rod bolts torqued to 45ftlb Wrapped up for the night to keep it dust free. I have an air purifier running 24/7 in the garage

awesome update!

I haven't seen any similar photos or discussion so I just want to share these here. As you can see from the photos, 13mm is great because it lets all the ribs of the seal engage the crank case bore. Actually 10mm is ok too. BTW, you can see the RMS has cracks on it. 13mm measured from the vertical surface of the crank to the seal face 10mm. The ribs still engage fully The RMS has double seals (beige and black) At 13mm, the beige seal still has 3~4mm away from the edge of the crank before it falls off. If you look carefully, you can see 3 distinct wear tracks indicating this engine had at least 3 seals before, corresponding to 8mm, 10mm, and 13mm insertion depth. There's no wear at all on the tracks. Same can't said about the front seal. There's a groove worn on it where the old seal was. A deep groove. I'm going to install the new seal a bit deeper. You can actually install the seal pretty deep without worrying it being off from the bore.

They measured 0.013" to 0.015" on all cylinders. Found TDC then used a straight edge and feeler gauge to check 6 and 12 o'clock on the piston.

Ahsai: Great pics! Thanks for the update. The engine is a work or art. You are Da Man!

great write up, myself I would check the deck height at the 3 and 9 o'clock position, which is inline with the piston pin, otherwise the piston does rock at the 6 and 12 o'clock position. also I never use plastic to cover a open engine because static electricity will attract dust. just my thoughts

Studly post! Love it!

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That's what I did. The 6 and 12 o'clock were referring to the piston as pictured in the photo, which is exactly inlne with the pins. Btw, I als rock the piston a bit to make sure it's level with the deck before taking measurements. So what to use to cover the engine?

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Thanks! Jake's engine rebuild class helps a lot with all the great info and silver bullets.

Sorry, should have mention what we use, large lint free shop towels, usually find 3 X 4 ft towels at the Linen company or even Huck surgical towels from company like this one, they are blemish but work. http://raglady.com/Hand-Towels-Surgi...FQ6ZfgodA-cPZQ

I also used plastic to cover my engine when I wasn't working on it. re deck measuring: what do you do if the numbers aren't good? send everything to LNE for machining? I never made those measurements as I figured if they are wrong, then I'm **** out of luck anyways.

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Had you attended the hands- on engine rebuild school, you'd know what to do in this scenario if the deck is too tight... You would have had the "first rule of engine building" beat into your head for 4 solid days. "Assume nothing, quantify everything" That said, if deck height is too tight, the piston must be machined, as there's no other corrective action that can be taken to the block. LN doesn't do this- only the engine builder can, and the full set of pistons must be re- balanced following the corrective action.

Rennlist at it's best !

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so nothing I could have done other than stop the project dead in its tracks. guess I got lucky.

It can sometimes be tough to discern between pride and ignorance.

I can only imagine how satisfying it must be for you to be in the assembly phase after all your prep work. Hope all of the assembly continues to go smoothly for you. So if the deck height is off, is that an issue other than the influence on compression ratio? Is it a valve clearance issue or ?? I know there is an ideal number but so what if it is off a few thou?

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sure but if deck height is off, I'm questioning a lot of other things with the parts at that point. ​​

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pistons travel higher than the deck and make contact with the valves. buhbye motor

I love Jake's analogy of building this engine (or maybe any engine for that matter). It's like the engine is trying to kill you (your wallet) so it's like going to war with it. Everything needs to be checked out. I'm big on sanity checks hoping to catch an issue before it can bite my ***. Essentially only the rods, crankshaft and its cradle are original parts (in the short block). The pistons, rings, pins, and the engine block are either aftermarket or machined so there are plenty of possibilities for issues. One example is one of the second rings has some non visible burr on one of its ring ends. Not visible and you can barely feel it even if you know where to look. Once installed, the ring can't rotate freely. I was able to free it by dressing the end slightly. Measuring the deck height ensures the pistons don't hit the head/valves like AwDguy said. Also it indicates all the mating surfaces are clean so nothing is stuck between them. Also, it let's you estimate the C.R. which is another sanity check.

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Thanks. Is it likely the sharp edges of the engine block/parts can catch and pull a fiber from the cloth inadvertently?

Tools needed to install bank 2 pistons. This is the same EWK tool I bought and found the delrin rod to be 3 thou fatter than it should be. After they held an engineering meeting reviewing the evidence and measurements I had submitted, they machined a new one to me to my specification and I returned the old one to them. It's a great company that's willing to do the right thing and help out the customers. Mark the tool by putting a piston in the bore and mark it like the next photo right at the access hole I used a gold sharpie

Cleaned the mating surfaces with carb cleaner and rubbing alcohol then apply Driebond. It's cool in CA here so it worked to my advantage (takes longer to cure so I had more time). Bank 2 case installed Bank 2 pistons with rings and one wrist pin clip (flywheel side) installed, ready to go I used Jake's famous upside down gravity assisted method where you turn the whole engine so the bank 2 rods point to the ground. The other two rods #4 and #5 just got out of their way automatically! This is how it looks through the access hole, the small end hanging down A view from the bottom Piston installed and pushed UP to meet the rod small end Piston and rod aligned Wrist pin installed Money shot! Wrist pin clip fully seated. It's a breeze after the practice in Jake's class.

3.8L Nickies short block

oh man. so exciting. awesome pics !

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Assai, i have never had an issue with that at all, BTW great write up so far on the engine build.

The IMS Solution partially installed. Sorry can't get better pics as the engine stand mounting plate is in the way. Flange installed Ready to accept the IMS Solution flange Oil fitting Shiny pistons and deck

Duncan, It would be interesting to see a photo of the 'plug' that seals the IMS tube. I doubt many Rennlisters have ever seen one.

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Sorry but mine came pre-assembled and I never tried to remove the plain bearing. That cover plate hides behind the bearing but my understanding is it's just a cap closing the ims opening so no oil can infiltrate the shaft.

What ? You didn't dismantle it to polish it down to the last nano particle? LOL Thank you anyway. And particularly for the best M96 rebuild thread by far !

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Haha, I did think about taking it apart to inspect it but then I think it's probably not needed.

There is no plug at the bearing end once the bearing is removed it's open, the plug is at the other end which slots into the oil pump!

We are discussing "The Solution" by Raby/LN. I respectfully suggest you reconsider your comment about the plug Duncan and I discussed. "Factory IMS shafts are not plugged, which is why we have to supply a specially manufactured plug with the IMS Solution" ,So said Jake Raby Post 107: http://986forum.com/forums/performan...upgrade-6.html

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The plug is installed with the IMS Solution only. This is done to keep the IMS tube from filling with oil, thereby reducing available oil within the engine by 3/4 of 1 quart. Watch the IMS Solution installation video at www.theimssolution.com to see how this is installed.

And in the meantime it's growing...

amazing

Amazing photos, almost works of art. Looking forward to seeing the final result

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Thanks guys! The beautiful machine work from Len, Hoffman Automotive Machine. Ultrasonically cleaned Diamond milled deck See how clean the SAI ports/passages are at the exhaust ports! New springs, valve seals, valve retainers, and intake valve seats. Stage 1 port work Mating surfaces inspected and cleaned again before mating

A few more glamour shots before I bolted the heads on.

Dry fitting the gasket to check proper fit

The head bolts are torque-to-yield and are $12 each (you need 24 bolts) so better not make any mistakes! In Jake's class we used a Snapon digital angle gauge. Here I just used a long 1/2" ratchet and a simple Lisle angle gauge to save some $. Worked like a charm albeit more time to setup. Tape at 70 degrees to aid reading All the bolts are marked and sanity checked at the end after each round of angle torquing (total 2 rounds) Set at 0 degree at the beginning with some torque applied to take up any slack (not shown)

Lifter cradle ultrasonically cleaned by Len Cam cover ultrasonically cleaned by Len. The cams were cleaned and polished by a local machine shop. The 3 o-rings behind the lifter cradle...very easy to forget. Cradle installed

Wow, just WOW!

!!!

Hello Duncan, you really do a great job, with accuracy and love in all details! Great pictures, we can see that you like what you do Best regards!

As usual your workmanship looks flawless and very meticulous Ahsai. Thanks for the detailed pics. When do you think you'll be able to fire up your new motor?

So much for the LNE claim that their single row bearings have a 50k service interval. Im assuming it was not the new single row pro version. Its good to have this info because you never can trust the bluster of the parts suppliers ... If I were you I would just wait until a good used motor shows up online and keep your old motor to practice on it. The car has 105K miles so there are likely used ones with lower miles.

Good used motor, good luck with that!

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Thanks, guys! A lot of TLC for sure. I found that actually most of the time was spent on preparation (cleaning, inspecting, measuring, dry fitting and adjusting, etc). The actual time for assembly is very short in comparison. It's kinda like cooking. You spent hrs preparing and cooking but it only take 10-15min to eat and enjoy the dish. I hope to fire it up over xmas but I also have visitors so not sure yet. If not, January 2017 will be the target. I'm using the IMS Solution (IMSS) and it makes total sense if you're rebuilding an engine and do not want to deal with subsequent PM of replacing the bearing again. Practice? Yes, practice was done in Jake's intensive 4-day engine rebuild class. This is for real, man! I have a spreadsheet that keeps track of the total (staggering) cost down to every single bolt and gasket. It costs about $18k just in parts and machine work to duplicate this engine (including ~$2k acquiring cost for the broken engine for the crank, crank carrier, engine case, and the heads). Now the RND engine looks like a smoking deal because that includes labor and warranty! The whole point of this adventure is to rebuild an M96 properly with success. The chassis is pristine at 100k miles and it serves as a test mule for the engine. Right and I can always just sell the chassis as is anyway since it's in such a great shape.

Wow, that is phenominal work. Judging by this, i wouldn't have been able to rebuild my motor.

"I have a spreadsheet that keeps track of the total (staggering) cost down to every single bolt and gasket. It costs about $18k just in parts and machine work to duplicate this engine (including ~$2k acquiring cost for the broken engine for the crank, crank carrier, engine case, and the heads). Now the RND engine looks like a smoking deal because that includes labor and warranty!" I also posted my more modest costs for a rebuild .I did not use some of the expensive upgrade parts(like JE pistons) discussed here. Regardless you still need all the tools , equipment and the skills to use them. What may not be included in the $18k above is the cost of Jake's class+travel+accommodation. And then there is the time. Not just actual assembly time but all the hours on Forums gleaning bits of information to avoid mistakes . This is a commitment few would make if they knew up front what is involved. Now you do know. This Thread is a wonderful addition too Rennlist knowledge about this problematic engine. The RND option is welcome ! For the rebuilders who assert: "oh, it's a breeze, just slap it together, get 'er done" let's see your rebuild photos !

Who let the damn troll in?

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7 Posts and the guy lectures us ! I suggest we ignore him to avoid another Thread killer.

Ahsai That looks like a fantastic job should purr like a kitten , don't forget a few Valium before you turn the key, it's a nerve racking moment , even if your sure you done it all right , all the best !

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Sure sounds like a certain Martin for sure. Duncan! Unbelievable what you have done!

Duncan is at the top of those who've attended my classes for the past decade. Duncan has done a better, more thorough job of this task than most professional M96 assemblers I have experienced over the years. In class he was attentive, took awesome notes, and asked great questions. He didn't fall asleep one time during the presentations, but I can't say that about the attendee that sat behind him! Engine building is 95% attentiveness, and 5% luck. That said, like Duncan stated its easy to end up with 14-18K in parts for one of these engines at a retail price point. Duncan did discover a unique parts source near the end of his purchasing spree, and he stated that could have saved him around 1K on the parts expenditures, but he had already made his purchases. I sell an engine a couple of levels above what Duncan has built for around 22.5K, but it does have a few twists, and about 30 more HP, and you can't get that any other way :-) (shameless plug) Duncan has illustrated what a dedicated individual can do with today's resources. This proves just how far we've developed, and taken the M96 engine over the last decade, since only 10 years ago none of these things were available to the public. Duncan also got the chance to review my "M96 Definitive Guide"as I saw that he was a perfect beta tester to see just how effective the book can be to an individual like him when assembling an M96 engine. As for the Troll, well there's one on every thread, I'm just about to wage war on them, stand by and watch what happens in the next few months. You'll be entertained.

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You can too if one has reasonable mechanical sense and attends Jake's class. Thanks! Actually most of my info is from the 2003 WSM and Jake's class. There are also costs for tools and equipment. The engine class was like a retreat/vacation for me so I kept the accounting separate I can totally imagine the moment of turning the key. Thanks Pete!

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Thanks for the kind words, Jake! It meant a lot coming from you. As I've stated many times in this thread, the class did help a lot both by explaining why things are done certain (better) ways and it also forces you to practice! Everyone in the class were required to insert the wrist pin clip with the tool without failure! Yes, you actually had asked me to wait for July when I was looking for parts but I was not patient enough. Of course then RND euro parts was formed and I've bought a few parts from them since then. They ship fast (i.e., same day you order!) and I was very impressed with their service and info on the website. They show you in real-time how many an item are in the inventory. That's perfect for people who need the parts NOW. The prices are very competitive, approaching Sunset. In fact, I just ordered from them last week (an intake valve). I was honored to have a sneak preview of Jake's "M96 Definitive Guide" and I just hope it will be published soon! It contains all the info necessary to assemble the M96 and all the silver bullets too. The pictures are awesome that will put mine in shame!

"I was honored to have a sneak preview of Jake's "M96 Definitive Guide" and I just hope it will be published soon ! This is very welcome news to someone like me who has many ,many posts mentioning this book and encouraging it's publication.I had given up waiting and did my rebuild without it. Just imagine how many times Porsche people in future will cite to Jake's reference book. Imagine how many convoluted Threads will be quickly and positively ended by a reference to a page number in that book. It would improve the technical level of not just Rennlist posts but remove much of the uncertainty in buying an M96-engined car . Bravo Jake ! I proof read for Gutenburg so am happy to help you for FREE !

I have only seen the chapters that cover everything before putting on the heads so that's really only like 30%. I hope the rest of the chapters are as ready!

I'm still hoping it will be in my Christmas stocking :-)

New front console (main oil pump) You can see the main pump gear Vaseline is what the doctor prescribed LN hardened hex dirve I marked it "LN" as it looks the same as the stock drive but it's heavier (denser) LN low temp thermostat in stock thermostat housing New front console, new water pump, and new low temp thermostat installed The 4 studs for the engine brackets are also installed Most of the holes are covered Another view

New exhaust lifters and tensioners poached in hot fresh oil Stock intake lifters were poached in oil + marvel mystery oil mixture. You can actually see the old dirty oil spit out as the oil heats up. I let it cool down and repeat for a few more cycles until no more old oil spits out Ferraro rocher, anyone?

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That's amazing that the lifters fit so well in the chocolate case Did that just happen to be lying around the house when you figured out that it would make a perfect storage area for your lifters? Do tell the story of the moment of clarity when it all came together

Another way of prepping the lifters and tensioners is using a strong storage container and taking a tire valve and install it on the cover, then I use the A/C vacuum pump along with A/C gauges and fill container with oil till above the parts and suck the air out of the container with parts in less than 10 mins or till you see no more bubbles coming out of the parts.

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The moment I saw the empty case lying on the kitchen table I knew it's the perfect tray I only used it to hold the lifters temporarily. I had another plastic box with 24 partitions for the individual lifters. Cool technique and thanks for sharing.

If you remember, my engine case was clocked such that the SPOFA for the IMSS is about 230 degree out. Emailed LN and John took care of it by sending a new one with the proper orientation (no shims are needed). Also, I bought the BR30 break in oil from them a while ago and at the time they didn't have BR40 in stock. They have now and they just sent me a case (12 bottles) for free. Thanks Charles and John! SPOFA with the correct output port orientation (anywhere from 7 to 5 o'clock) BR40, courtesy of LN Engineering

You guys are so lucky having an actual class to teach you, I had some great help in the uk from my local Indy garages which are really good but it took time collecting info, I even contemplated flying over!! When is your book out jake it's on my list of must haves !!

if you ever sell the car, make sure to cut LN a cheque for all that free oil. lmao! jokes Looking good man! still planning on turning the key early new year?

I'm willing to bet Ahsai doesn't have any vacuum leaks that cause him to get p1ssed off and put it up for sale. Plus, since he paid to take the class, he didn't need as much hand holding. But let's try not to derail this thread with petty irrelevancies.

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We're indeed lucky in the US! Just the free oil, I can afford lol Jan 2017 more realistically. Guys, we should all stay positive! I think AWDGuy is just too tired of the engine/car after all the hard effort he has put into it.

7/16" 12-pt thin wall socket tool for the IMSS center nut I ground down the sides of the socket to accept a 12mm crowfoot Add a cabinet 1/4" screwdriver and you're good to go!

Useful tool hack - thanks for sharing. I always wondered why that IMS bolt head was not an internal hex/allen ,XZN or Torx.Slot head screws have been obsolete for most applications for 20+years.

Not much more to say than thanks Ahsai, Jake and others who've added value to this thread. Awesome job - can't wait until the engine start video (hint hint)!

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Agreed. Sorry about that Ahsai, keep the posts coming!!!!

Slak your in gnat mode again!

Stupid iPad. I keep forgetting.

"It's not a glitch it's a feature"...

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it's all good, just having some fun. it's great to see another build like this after mine. I get to see the differences between builders. not that there has been much difference, mostly everything I've seen here is what we did with the porsche manual by our side. my car is running fantastic since getting the vac leaks taken care of. but there's still a long list of parts that needs to be replaced (not engine related) that I will slowly tackle while owning it or give the list to future owner if it sells.

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Yes, the major steps are the same. However, the details could be different. e.g., install the bank 1 pistons into the bores first before installing the crank carrier (per the WSM) or the other way around (Jake's preferred way which is also the way I documented here). The other one is how to install the bank 2 piston clips - pistons up-side-down preferred by Jake. There are also many tips I learned from the class. Without those you could still assemble the engine but you will be more likely to make mistakes and have to re-do things. Original EWK tool (far left) to hold the collar nut of the vane type variocam actuator to the intake cam. The nut is only 3mm thick. The relief on the tool is way too much so it tends to slip and strip the nut. 4mm shaved off the top and it bites a lot better The collar nut

Washer and the 1-1/2" ABS cap (very thick and sturdy) from home depot. I drilled a hole in it for the crank pulley bolt. The larger washer is from SKF (thrust bearing) with 40mm I.D. and 60mm O.D., 1mm thick. Fits the crank and seal perfectly. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007VHSHQO...ing=UTF8&psc=1 Started the seal manually first then add the bolt Seal almost home You can see the thrust washer fits perfectly The ABS cap

This thread is amazing, learning so much and barely 5 pages in! Your garage looks so clean and sterile, almost like an operating or clean room...can you share more pics of your garage and setup If you don't mind me asking, what line of work are you in, I'd guess engineering or some other science discipline by the meticulous and precise nature of your rebuild...very impressive!

Quotes source post: 13804709

Thanks! My garage is just a normal simple one but I do keep it clean and tidy most of the time. I have an air purifier running 24/7 ever since I started the engine reassembly. I prefer a very clean and organized environment for engine rebuild. I clean up the benches every time after I worked on the engine to make sure all the tools are accounted for and there are no extra left over parts. I'll snap some pics once I tidy it up more. It's kind of "messy" now You guessed right! I'm a systems engineer (R&D).

The stock TDC mark and hole are a joke. The notch on the pulley is about 2mm and that's 1.5 degrees already. The TDC lock hole has some variation too depending on what lock pin you use. The thinner the lock pin, the more variation you will get. I found the best (and easiest) is to put a wire with a sharp end next to the notch to mark it consistently. The intake bolt is tightened to 22 ftlb first per Jake's torque book. Then once happy with the timing (i.e., the cam lock tool can slide in easily), tighten it 90 degrees further. Leave this at the last step as the bolt can't be re-used in case you want to adjust things

After timing, I also checked for compression on each cylinder using this tool to verify the 1-6-2-4-3-5 firing order and compression of each cylinder. This tool whistles when there's compression. https://www.amazon.com/Innovative-Pr...words=TDC+tool Also put each cylinder in TDC (compression) and did a leakdown test. 5 of the cylinders were 5% and one was 20%, which is normal per Len (will improve during break-in). Completed these sanity checks just to have a peace of mind - the rings, valves, timing are all good and correct at this point. This table helped a lot (courtesy of Domiac from Renntech). "TDC" = TDC compression. "UP" = TDC overlap

Outstanding! Would be nice to have the BS deleted out of this thread though...

Having just watched this engine rebuild viseo, I wonder what is delaying Duncan ? http://www.hartech.org/hartech-videos Maybe he should have taken the Hartech class? In Jest ! If Hartech had done it in 60 minutes instead of 6,it would have been useful

Great thread, Ahsai !!! Enjoying following it. Schnell Gelb, I agree... Hartech made an interesting effort, but would have rather seen it at a useful speed.

Cuda, If Hartech get enough encouragement from Rennlist ,perhaps Baz will re-post the rebuild video at normal speed? It would certainly be a great promotional piece to drive Porsche people to their site. Baz did graciously offer a 10 minute video-on-a-stick some time ago: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...min-video.html Astonishing that more M96 enthusiasts do not take avantage of all the tech info on that site https://www.hartech.org/ 74 pages of intense M96 tech here: https://www.hartech.org/images/downl...0(interim).pdf

Thanks 808Bill and Cuda! I'm enjoying every minute of it too. Schell, that 10min is interesting. It shows you the order that the parta go on. However, since the camera didn't move, you're missing like 70% of the action. A cool video none the less. I only work on the engine a couple of hr a day only when I'm free so it's not gonna be fast. I also do a lot of checking so that slow things down a lot too. I'm in no hurry so it's ok.

Glad you enjoyed. Mine rebuild took 2+ years ! Life(other than M96) happens - thank goodness!

There is a new product available to engine rebuilders that may solve a significant(?) problem. It is offered by Vertex who claim (verbatum ) to "have created the bearing support that eliminates future RMS leaks and reinforces crankshaft support" See Post #18 here: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l#post13833328 Maybe too late for Duncan's build but useful for the many others who follow and use this excellent thread as a guide? JR subsequently commented that he did not consider the 'product' useful in the thread linked above. What a relief, we don't have to dismantle the newly rebuilt engine to fit it !

Center nut torqued to 16 ftlb (mid way between 12 and 20). The new SPOFA with the correct orientation. IMS side connection Seems like the hose could have been an inch shorter? Really need to see how everything goes in place after the engine is put back into the car.

New oil/coolant heat exchanger and vacuum reservoir. Also new vacuum lines and rubber Y-connectors. New in-sump AOS's and oil pick up tube.

So cleannnn

Yeah, I also sent out the injectors for ultrasonic cleaning and flow testing. The old filters and o-rings of the injectors

Quotes source post: 13855017

Shorten it? -4, -6? Hard to tell from the pic. http://aeroquipperformance.com/lookup.html?supercat=11

I would be putting a piece of fuel line over that hose where it almost touches the block. Stainless hose is extremely abrasive.

I'll probably need to adjust the angle of the blue elbow fitting a bit once I put the engine back in the car. I don't want the hose to dangle too low though.

Torqued to 37ftlb + 90 degrees. Final torque is somewhere between 125 to 150 ftlb, not as high as I anticipated.

Bumped. Ahsai, I'm eagerly awaiting the startup of your new engine. Keep feeding us photos...

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Still waitimg for some parts but I've been making good progress. Will post more pics soon!

Looks good, you are almost done. Now I need to get my butt in gear and start putting mine back together. Thanks for documenting yours, it will help others in the future.

Thanks Imre! Someone said photos? IMSS hose adjusted to get more clearance Seldom see this angle. My engine stand came with 4 arms. I added one more to spread the stress/load. Love this engine stand, very sturdy and stable.

Still got a lot to do...RMS, flywheel, clutch, prime the fuel rails (all empty now), and purge the old fuel from the car. Spent $150 to polish and balance the old 100k flywheel and pressed in a $35 OE pilot bearing... only later on (much later) to find out a brand new LUK flywheel (with a new pilot bearing pre-installed) can be had for less than $400 shipped to your door! Check out Partsgeek, lightning fast shipping. Of course, I splurged and got a new FW for this build. Will reuse the clutch disc and pressure plate though as they still have lots of miles left on them.

See how badly worn the old plastic/nylon wrap is around the hoses? Found a great solution here https://www.wirecare.com/category/br...lack-3-ft-cuts

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Sell it here !The shipping cost will be significant but you have all the correct packing from your new one.

Awesome pictures....what are you going to do with it when you are done? Swap it out with the engine in your car? If so, what are you going to do with that engine? Just curious. I don't think you have (2) 996's.

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I think I will have a few (good) parts to sell after this rebuild. Thanks! I plan to put it back on the roller and drive it for a while. That's exactly why I bought Cringely's roller as opposed to a broken engine without a chassis. It was well thought out

Nice garage. Your workspace is immaculate.

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Thanks! I try to keep it clean and organized especially for the engine rebuild. I like my stow away workbench under the workbench, saves a lot of space and doubles my workbench area when needed. A few photos of the rear of the engine. Mounted to the stand with 5 arms. Engine supported by the hydraulic table when not being worked on.

If you don't have the hydraulic cart, a HF scissor trans jack works. Note he uses 5 points of attachment between the stand and the engine. Often you see only 3 ! I used 7 by fabricating extra arms. I used threaded stud, not bolts.That way you can thread the stud all the way into the engine(all the way through the flange in some cases)Use nuts to secure to the stand arms. The reason for this is that as a noob I had no idea about the risk of 'pulling' or distorting the threads when rotating a fully dressed engine. You also see people use cheapo 3 leg stands (!) instead of the H frame as in the photo. Just think about the weight transfer issue when rotating or moving the stand if you hit a bump ! I used one of these: https://www.amazon.com/2000-Heavy-Fo.../dp/B000L9LLHG

I'm sure 5 is better than 4. but. I had only 3 arms bolted and it was fine. Sat in my garage for almost 2 years like that. was never worried.

Sorry I triggered this 3 vs 4 vs 5 vs 7 arms discussion Personally I prefer more arms to spread the stress but that's just me. I like the threaded studs idea. All my mounting bolts are very long so I'm probably not too far from the studs method. I would have gotten something like this if it fit my stand (it doesn't) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-996-...25.m3641.l6368

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Yours a great engine stand. I just don't have enough space so I ended up with my straight "H" type. Also I need the wide inside opening so I can roll the hydraulic table up all the way to the mounting plate.

I actually worked with that guy in Ontario to design & make that yoke.Prior to that he did not have an M96 yoke - just VW and other air-cooled. But I was impatient and just cobbled up my own .That is part of the reason I had so many studs. Better more than required than not enough.BTW ,it looked awful ! But just imagine what could happen if you flip a fully dressed M96 and the 3 stud yoke starts to bend..... There is huge cantilever force on the bolts/studs. Hence the suggestion for a trans jack under the pan or the lifting table Ahsai has. Another mistake I made - greasing the neck of the yoke. The engine is unbalanced when you flip it in some positions of the rotation. And I did a really good job greasing...... no, you do not have the strength to restrain it when it decides to rotate more than you want ! So leave the yoke dry. Once you have greased the yoke and the engine is partially complete, it is really tedious to dismount it & remove the grease. It is just theory.Some of us are super cautious and meticulous with the M96 ,some not. If it had been a Miata engine I would have been much more casual. For reference ,look at some of the photos Jake has kindly submitted of his engine stands & ignore my anecdote. Most of Jake's yokes to be bolted to a huge bench !

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Good point about the tapered legs + the hydraulic table. I used my old Wudel trans jack to lift and position first the engine and then the trans(Boxster S) .For the 996 lifting the complete assy. with a hydraulic table is a much better idea.Some have done the same with the Boxster -in the Jet videos I posted for example. I put some 2x4's across the top of the legs to support the HF trans Jack .And a piece of plywood under the pan . *What would be REALLY interesting would be an engine test stand and associated equipment for the M96. Dealing with little problems after installation is tedious because of access. I hope others who rebuild the M96 find these few suggestions helpful.

stunning images

That is so nice.

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Thanks guys! More pics New flywheel on with two hand made lock tools at 10 and 3 o'clock for tightening the flywheel bolts 120 degrees after ftlb torque spec Clutch disc reused as it looks like brand new. Current state

Beautiful engine, looks like you are completely done now with this complete engine rebuild, even better than new from Porsche :-) Amazing work, you did on this engine... Now you should put this brand new engine in your own 996 and enjoy it, heh heh heh, cheers.

so awesome. you must be getting rrally exciting now.

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The real tests are still yet to come. Can't wait to put it back and fire it up! Made a jumper switch to plug into the fuel relay socket to drain the 2yr old gas. Works like a charm. I also monitored the fuel level in real-time via durametric. Pretty cool.

Good plan to drain & refill the fuel .I also changed the filter. Your audience may be interested to learn about the best after-rebuild 1st start procedure. Future rebuilders will be grateful for the hi-res photos because they show where all the hoses and wires should go.I had to resort to looking at photos on EBay of used M96 engines for sale ! You have done the M96 community a great service Duncan. Thank you !

Fresh fuel and filter should be considered a requirement.

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Thanks! I check out ebay engine photos too but most of the time things are put (back) together incorrectly haha Ideally but on MkII 996's the fuel filter is part of the fuel pump so unless I change out the fuel pump...

I found a new gig for Ahsai: http://jalopnik.com/meet-the-master-...sin-1791648854 8 hours work on a new cylinder head ? They must have some small amount of Raby DNA?

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From the tittle I thought my karaoke video was leaked That engine is a piece of art...at least the m96 shares the same oil pressure sensor, which is crap btw

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I didn't know they were still around, thankx for the video link !, brings back fond old memories.

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I did not know that, thanks for the info.

Using the technique Jake described. You can see the oil pressure build up crank after crank. It took only 3 seconds of cranking to get the engine started, compared to the normal 2s so it's not bad.

I've done many types of engine from aircrafts to 80 liters and on down.... always great to hear it fire but with my heart in my throat for first start. excellent job

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Congratulations Duncan ! Now your next challenge is fault codes and readiness monitors and leaks. I wish you luck. My restart after rebuild was also (surprisingly to me !) successful - until I took it for a test drive. Then the problems emerged. Thank goodness for Durametric !It would be very difficult to trace and correct problems without it. But the skills required to interpret its results.... http://986forum.com/forums/performan...er-failed.html