How much extra for a car with IMS Solution?

Gents, Picking up my '02 C4S on Friday. I'm in Canada, but converted it's 33k miles and $31,600. It's in fantastic shape. Full leather with the sport seats with body coloured backs. Artic silver over black. Lowered and with a modified OEM exhaust. I think I'll add red OEM front seat belts to add a bit of pop and accent the callipers. Now... I'm paranoid about the IMS because I don't want to eat the cost of an engine rebuild and being lower mileage, and single row bearing, I feel this car could be a candidate for a grenade. On a side note, I had it boroscoped and cylinder walls are good. In my neck of the woods, replacing the bearing with LN is approx $3k CDN. IMS Solution is $5k CDN. If I'm willing to spend $3k, I guess it's not the end of the world to spend $5k, but that's a lot of dough. I also plan to keep the car a long time, but life throws curve *****. Question: if you had two exact same cars side-by-side, one with factory IMS and one with IMS Solution, what would you personally pay extra for the one with the solution? Thanks!

I think people in the know will value it at around $2k USD. The biggest challenge is that represents about 5% of the market (obviously a WAG but you get the point.) The IMS retrofit will virtually insure that the IMS does not cause engine failure based on a bearing going bad over the next 5 years. It will not however hold up when there are other issues because it is still the week link in the chain. The solution on the other hand makes the IMS one of the stronger links in the chain. It will actually prevent failures from things such as the IMS shaft being a little out of tolerance where as the IMS bearing would give out. My new track engine being built will have the solution, it wasn't even a decision for me. But I'm a Kool-aid drinker so others might have a different opinions.

First of all, you buy the Solution for yourself because YOU believe it is the right thing. If it were me, I'd absolutely go the route of the Solution and it's only bad luck that the dual row Solution was announced weeks after I finally had ours replaced As far as resale, either way if it is not done by a certified shop I personally would consider it as not done at all. There have been a few cases where people slapped retrofits in a failing motor and pawned it off on the poor sap that then had the motor blow up when they thought they were safe. I wouldn't look as down on a non-certified Solution as A) the Solution is incredibly robust and B) it is not a cheap option for someone putting lipstick on a pig. So my preference would be: 1) Certified Solution install +$2-3k 2) Certified retrofit +1k 3) Factory dual row or uncertified Solution +/-0 4) Factory small single row or retrofit with 20k on it -1k 5) Factory large single row -3-5k 6) Retrofit wth less than 20k and uncertified -20k (e.g. They couldn't give it to me) That my opinion though and I recognize that I could be in the market for a long time with such a view.

Minimum $10,000 more RE: your situation, I'd go for it based on a few things: low mileage; plans to own car long term; and clean cylinder walls.

I'd buy the one with the factory IMSB and then have the solution installed.

I'd rather buy the one without the IMSB done, unless it was done by a certified installer I purchased a low mile (26k) X51 equipped car and after driving it for a 1k, decided on having the retrofit performed Reputable shop, and the car performs flawlessly There is a mountain of material related to this, and you should read as much of it as possible both here and abroad (911uk)

Thanks, guys. Yes, I will/would only have the Solution installed by Jakes's only certified installer in my city. Already chatted with him.

Mr. "ggrace" is asking a hypothetical question, and that deserves an equally hypothetical answer. Plus, there's no such thing as identical cars that are each 10-15 years old. Everyone is entitled to a personal opinion, but "smart guys" have data to support theirs. No bad intended on Mr. "ggrace"...just sayin'. relinuca

^^^ Mr. Grace, but that's actually my father! Of course these are spitball opinions, but that's just what I was looking for. It appears most people feel that a car with The Solution installed by a certified installer should be worth a tad more than one with factory bearing. That makes me feel better that should I ever sell, I won't be losing 100% of my cost to install. Who know, maybe I will. But I appreciate getting everyone's perspective!

zero for me. The IMS is only one thing of many that can make the m96 grenade.

I'd go for the Solution from a certified (by FSI) mechanic. It is one and done....forever.

I was faced with the same question this past spring. I went with the upgraded bearing because my 2002 Targa had 82k at the time and was a bit strapped for cash. My friend on the other had at the same time had a 2003 with mileage in the 30k range. He opted for "The Solution" and I think I would have also gone that route had I owned a car with 50k fewer miles. How much more does the solution make his car worth? I'd guess $2-$3k over one that has the OEM bearing. Certainly at least give me added piece of mind if I was purchasing.

Quotes source post: 13795867

That's why being done by a certified shop is important. It means that many of those other issues have been checked (and addressed if they failed the inspection). So not only is the bearing issue solved, but you have a reasonable expectation of it being a solid motor.

I'd probably pay $2k more for the exact same car with the IMS Solution over a factory IMSB, assuming it was a single row factory IMSB. If it were a 1999 or a 2000 model, I'd probably just consider it a "nice to have" that doesn't add much value. But, with a low-miles, single-row factory IMSB, I would definitely be having the bearing upgraded. The IMS Solution is the full Monty, and frankly I'm not sure it's worth the premium over the other options available. But, I know I'd be doing something with that IMSB on the car you are buying, so I figure it's going to cost at least $2k US to have any upgrade done. So, there's my answer: $2,000.

Quotes source post: 13795509

Yup. Unless the retrofit or Solution was documented and installed by one of Raby's anointed mechanics, my preference is for a stock car that can be upgraded. If the documentation was sound, I suppose I'd be willing to pay incrementally more for the retrofitted car, but that's assuming there are zero other factors making one car seem better than the other.

When you get into the original IMSb as the patron saint of the 'right' starting point, you run into some logical issues. Key ones being - you have no clue if the OEM bearing is near death or good for another 200k. All you know is it hasn't failed yet. Which is the same, objective data point you'll have on any properly running car (clean oil analysis), OEM, retrofit or otherwise. Agree that certified installs are a good thing, though prone to heuristics (ex. a certified retrofit is done by an expert, therefore it cannot be a poor install). That said, some people believe in astrology, no-fat diets, Amway sales strategies, fishing lures, etc. and those 'pursuits' work for them. So who am I to judge. Based on how humans conduct themselves in just about every other form of personal business I don't see any reason why the acknowledgement of unknowns should guide IMSb strategy. One thing I do concede is that a DIY or uncertified IMSb fix within a year of sale is a suspect pattern, but that's mostly related to a lack of real life 'test' data of how many miles the new bearing has supported. That is, a lack of data is the problem - a fairly narrow subest of cases. Anyone that looks at comparable cars with a certified IMSS vs. an OEM bearing and opts for the OEM is defying known data in pursuit of an unsupported theory of IMSb quality relativity. This type of action, I don't acknowledge as legitimate - but the product of poor logical wiring and the success of silly heuristics.

Overanalyzing in this thread. I do agree with TTB above....I'd always chose the documented retrofit given otherwise comparable cars, but so many other factors affect a car's value and besides, the car is only worth what the buyer will pay anyway.

Not trying to be a d*ck above (though my tone suggests otherwise!), just call a spade a spade when it comes to wading through a sea of unknowns. It's not what we don't know that gets us in trouble, but the stuff we know that just aint so.

Quotes source post: 13796466

The belief in the "I want the original IMSB still installed" camp (full disclosure, I am a member) is that you are the one that gets to make the decision what to do and also get to be the one to see what it's state is if you choose to replace it. It also eliminates the worry that a bearing was slapped into a motor that was already failing to help pawn the situation off onto the buyer. Unfortunately we've seen too many cases of the latter point in this forum that it has tainted bearing swaps for some of us without hard evidence as to the state of the motor (e.g. certified installer).

I hear ya and agree it's normal to drift in that direction, just pointing out the rationale is theoretical and not based in fact. We'll all do what we Feel is best, sometimes to the detriment of our own well-being. This *may* be another manifestation of that dynamic. Or not, we don't know I bought what I thought was an original imsb car with that intention, only to realize the prior owner of 11 years installed a retrofit proactively at the same time the lawsuit with PNA was settled. That led me to reassess and adopt a more pragmatic mindset that the bearing history doesn't matter* so much as everything else (frequency of AOS, Water Pump, cold wx operation, track time, etc). While I have a lot of respect & admiration for the DIY guys that do their own, I'm not a fan or a buyer of any type of bearing that retains the flawed design and/or doesn't have a thread showing the install procedure in detail. *mass market, retrofit bearings by reputable firms installed by certified shops

Quotes source post: 13796625

We do know it is fact that people have come on here only to find out that their motor is toast and then respond that they are just going to slap a new bearing in and dump in on CarMax. While that could be chalked up to internet bravado, we have also seen reports from the other side of the story where someone picked up a car that had just had it's bearing replaced, but their motor blew. So it is a fact that it happens, it's just a question of how frequently it happens and if you have the stomach for the risk of a fresh bearing change. At that point, I agree, it comes down to personal feelings and tolerance for risk. All opinions and reasoning thereof are important for the OP's actual question. Some will add value, some will subtract, and others just won't care.

Gents, really appreciate all your opinions/thoughts/comments. I think I'll go with the IMS Solution from our local Flat Six certified installer. It's costly, but less than a motor build and it appears that most feel the same way I do - that I'd probably recoup 50% of my cost back when selling (hopefully never). Happy motoring! I can't wait to share photos of my car. Picking it up Friday.

Consider the Single Row Pro from LN. Its actually a dual row unit good for 6YR or 75k. By that time you will need a clutch.

Quotes source post: 13796987

Now that makes too much sense.

so how do I purchase the IMS solution, the installation looks plain and simple.

Quotes source post: 13796987

This makes sense. Although my car has seen an average of 3,850km/yr. I'll have to dig into see if the clutch has been done. If it has, good chance I won't have to do a new clutch in the next 6 years. Of greater concern is the fact that I know two local shops that have seen LN bearings grenade. I'd rather spend $2k extra on a product that will kill my anxiety

I just purchased a 2005 996 C4S with only 38k miles..... the local Porsche specialist I trust told me that a car with that low mileage was a prime candidate for IMS failure. I had the LN Engineering IMS retrofit done during the first week I had the car. I factored that spend into the "price" I was going to pay for the car. now I can open her up....

Quotes source post: 13797236

http://LNEngineering.com or http://rndengines.com/

no failures on single row pro. just do what gives you piece of mind and move on. I have a 12k mile car and did the pro unit from a certified LN installer. The original unit had some play in shaft so good thing I did it. no I have piece of mind and car runs like a champ.

Quotes source post: 13795446

A question on (5) below ... when I bought mine, the large single row (due to engine replacement in 2008) was a point in the car's favour - should it not have been? I know the captive bearing design makes it impossible to replace without splitting the case, but I also thought the failure rate on these was negligible?

Quotes source post: 13801262

You are right on all your points and it simply comes down to my preference that I would rather have a motor that I can do something about the bearing rather than one I can't (at least reasonably so).

Quotes source post: 13801262

You are right. I don't think there are any documented cases of failure for the larger diameter bearing. The engine in my car also has one and I'm very happy about that. Not sure if it will add value, but I ain't selling anyway.

Quotes source post: 13804372

https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...ml#post8504757 edit: read more of the 997 thread and apparently the m97 has two scavenge pumps on each side vs. 1 per side in the m96. That and a stronger bearing is worth noting in terms of lower failure rates.

So if the IMS solution is worth the extra $1k over the LN replacement, I have to ask, how many LN replacement bearings have been reported to have failed, ever? I'm asking because I have to make this decision in the next couple of days. Thanks.

check the IMS thread stickied at the top. It has all the data you're looking for.

Quotes source post: 13806060

Well when it's replaced it stops being a wear item and won't need to be replaced and/or if gunk gets in and wears it you're going to have much bigger problems. I guess the other point of view is to put a new bearing in every so often. Personally, when mine gets to around 150k I'll have more worries about maintenance than if my replacement IMS is going to go or not, and more than likely would find the money to have a stop overhaul it along with other upgrades to the car. As far as paying more or less, I'm not really worried about it and would pay a little more for the car ($1-2k), but I wouldn't pass up one that didn't have the upgrade. But then again I don't really believe in a PPI that doesn't include dropping the pan and borescope, and have a somewhat higher risk tolerance for issues like this.

Quotes source post: 13812534

@Chiamac Not to change the subject but what would it cost for a PPI including an extra like dropping the pan and borescope? Then you're responsible for replacing the oil too I'd assume? I'm is the same boat as the OP and hope the answer can help us both to understand. Thanks!

I've documented two in the last decade.

Quotes source post: 13812618

I paid approx $700 CDN.

Not to be condescending or obvious, but it's worth what someone is willing to pay. If the buyer is uninformed, doesn't care, or wants a fun disposable car - probably not worth much. Some one looking for a daily driver and has perused this doom and gloom board, maybe worth a good bit. For me as a buyer, I would be ok with couple of $K above market for a Solution equipped car done at a Solution certified shop. I don't know about other solution certified shops, but Callas in Socal is considerably costlier than your typical indy. For a retrofit, I might give a little something depending on how many miles are on it. @808 - here's the link to the pre-qualification for the IMS Solution. Just ask the your mechanic how much to do this (includes borescope among other things). http://imsretrofit.com/pre-procedure-qualification/

People call us all the time wanting to buy cars that are already Solution retrofitted, and were done here.. Those cars are seldom ever sold.

Quotes source post: 13814940

Yeah, I noticed...didn't see any in CA when I was buying a while back.

Quotes source post: 13795446

Don't forget the triple row IMS ceramic bearing, requires shipping the IMS to LN. + $ 1.5k

Quotes source post: 13813102

2 out of about 30,000 is actually really, really good. Compared to the alleged 10% for the smaller bearing that is a minuscule percentage.

Quotes source post: 13816246

I know of one here in KC about a year ago on a 997.1.

It's a persona; decision, a tough one to be sure since you just dropped a wad of cash for the call. I am in the same situation and am leaning towards getting the Solution installed over just a bearing replacement. I was verbally quoted around $3200 for the install. The shop also installs a different oil fed bearing product, the Eternal (?), but I forgot to ask where they tap the oil feed into, as it has a braided line as the feed. I personally like the fact that the Solution comes with the spin-on oil filter adapter as part of the kit (do wish I could use the LN spin--on adapter I have, but oh well I'll just list it). The second option is cheaper by a chuck, but Jake is on the forums all the time and feel he should get our support. Will a see any return on this? Hard to say, maybe ask $1000 more if selling the car. But IMHO it will make selling the car easier down the road. It's like getting an oil change, filters, tires, brakes and what have you done before listing the car for sale, it just makes it more desirable for your buyer over other possible options.

Quotes source post: 13818976

Mine ended up being a two row bearing, 2001 so was impossible to be certain until she was apart. Solution wasn't an option, but I'm perfectly confident in the LN two row replacement. If however I'd had a single row bearing, I'd have gone with the solution for the ultimate peace of mind. Ice on the road right now. She's done and I need to get her home. New water pump, plugs, coils as well. Going to be a long winter waiting for spring driving weather.

Quotes source post: 13818986

Exactly what happened with our 01, but I'm pretty sure the dual row solution is available now. Jake said like a month after I did ours in 2015 that they were finally bringing it to market.

CONFUSED! That's because of how marketing works. The opposition who wish to just make it look like the IMS Solution delivers oil to an OEM bearing (like theirs does) want you to think exactly what you are thinking. They don't want you to realize that the IMS Solution is a complete, and total omission of the deep grove style IMS Ball Bearing. They don't want you to realize that it removes all the wear components, and that its based from the same principle as what Porsche used in the Mezger based engines. Thats why they market, and advertise everywhere. Nothing is the same between what they are offering, and the IMS Solution. Of course, they came to the party really late, and they may not rule understand the differences themselves. They rob oil from the camshaft cover, which was a less than adequate place to collect oil from for the IMS Solution. It wasn't just filtered, and it also pulled oil from the hydraulic lifters, reducing pressure and volume to them. Exhaust system pressure transducers proved what this lead to in regard to valve train operation, wen I tried it over a decade ago. The location that oil is derived from for the IMS Solution is covered by US Patent 9,416,697. Thats no normal Spin On Filter adaptor. It utilizes a different filter arrangement that gives the IMS Solution "Just filtered oil". This location and unit is covered by US Patents 8,992,089 & 9,416,697. Again, don't be confused with whats advertised. Marketing is 85% bull**** and 15% exaggeration. Don't make a selection to support me.. I am out of the supply chain, and have nothing to offer. Thats why I don't sell parts. To me business is just a necessary evil to do the work that I love, and I want to do as little business as possible, to be exposed to the fewest amount of people possible. Thats why all we do is apply the things we've developed through IMS Solution Retrofits, and my line of completely reconstructed engines. This way we can give 200% to a fewer amount of people, and not have to deal with every person that beats on the door (3/4 of which are impossible to please). I am only on these forums to debunk myths, and to counter the BS marketing from these clowns that have you in their sights. I hate forums, I am only here because I have to be. I do like helping people through problems, but I hate the opinions that people have, and would not say if they had to stare into my eyes when stating them. WRONG! The dual row IMS Solution has been available for two years, and for the last year of that time any shop in the World has had access to it through 4 major distributors.

Quotes source post: 13819081

Well, I didn't know. The shop I chose saw the two row and decided for me the the two row LN bearing was the route to go. I won't hold it against them. I'm sure it's good for the lifetime remaining in the vehicle. if someone buys it from me and keeps it to 25 years old, maybe they do it again.

Ya if only all customers could be as low maintenance as I am, right?

Quotes source post: 13819178

You've just had many options, and variables that most people don't have. Thats all. With that comes some variables.

When one signs up with Jake for the full meal deal, you get his full attention.

He's been extremely patient with me and I definitely appreciate his understanding. I refer to it as my ability to rapidly adapt and change directions based upon new information. Others tend to call it just being downright flaky.