Scoring and cold weather starting on LN cylinders

I purchased a 2003 C4S with an engine noise last fall, thought it was a valve train tick, but ended up being cylinder scoring and piston slap I rebuilt the engine myself last winter . I purchased the LN cylinder ( Nickies) and piston kit(JE ). The engine was finished by me this past spring. The car was a blast all summer long. Unfortunately I live in a west suburb of Chicago and we are about to experience single digit and sub zero temps. I am getting the shakes and want to drive my car. My concern is cylinder scoring. Is the LN cylinders and piston kit I purchased of the appropriate materials and dimensions to prevent cylinder scoring in sub zero Fahrenheit. I really want to drive my car but I dont want to go through the trouble of another rebuild. Once was enough, my wallet cant handle another rebuild. Thanks Glenn 2003 C4S 3.6 rebuilt with LN cylinders and JE piston kit

http://lnengineering.com/resources/2...er-cayman-911/ I think with the materials LN Engineering uses for the sleeves it would solve the bore scoring problem. You might send a message to Charles at LN to get his opinion. Is your car in a climate controlled area or parked outside? The reason for asking is, of course, cold start up temperature. And oil weight appropriate for your temperature range. Definitely start up procedures would make a difference, and initial driving mode while warming up. I never exceed about 3200 RPM until my coolant temp hits 180 and has been there for several minutes, or after several miles of driving.

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For operation in cold temperature which is considered -25C (or colder) Porsche says to use 0w-40 oil. I do not know what -- if any -- oil recommendation LN has for its cylinders/piston kits/sets for cold temperature operation. You should check with LN. If it has none my advice would be to follow Porsche guidelines and use an approved 0w-40 oil if ambient temperature where you live/drive will get down to -25C. Actually I'd be tempted to switch to 0w-40 oil if temperatures were going to dip below 32F and remain below 32F for extended periods of time.

The Nickies are coated with nikiasil and suppose to have greater wear resistance unlike the lokasil. So it should not score.

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Is that why they call them nickies? I always wondered that

Thanks for the tips about the oil, but on the cold end of the thermometer, like our friends in Canada and the midwest experience and elsewhere ( single digit, subzero actual F temp) it is not a lubrication issue, even though that is very important, but it is a lack of clearance issue because of the combination of contraction of the block in the cold and on the start, expansion of the piston that ends up in a clearance problem. I did some reading and there are some posts around 2014 from Flat 6 that they do ring end gaps with the block and rings in a freezer. When I called LN then I was at this point of the rebuild I called LN and they reminded me when they sold me the sleeved block and JE piston kit that they were not going to support me because I was not a professional.( I guess being an Cetrified Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic doesnt qualify me in the voodoo science of a 996) In the end they did tell me to just set the end gaps at shop temp. I did them at 70F. Maybe the LN cylinder and piston combination was already engineered and prototyped by freezing and piston size and cylinder size were taken into consideration and standard ring end gaps will be fine at all temps? anyone in canada or in the midwest that drives their rebuilt 3.6 996 daily in arctic cold that that has LN sleeves and JE /LN supplied pistons. Call me crazy, but I really want to drive my car even in sub zero F temps. I wan t to turn the key with confidence knowing I will not cause any damage. Thanks Glenn

Ask LN. Wear properties of the lining has little to do with scorring. It has to be lack of adequate tolerance.

Scoring should not be an issue - drive the car and enjoy it. That's what you have it for, isn't it?

So should we call the OEM cylinders, sickies?

"LN .....reminded me when they sold me the sleeved block and JE piston kit that they were not going to support me because I was not a professional." Based on many posts by Charles and Jake ,I am sure they would give you a lower temperature limit on operating an M96 with their proprietary products in them. Compared to the knowledge base at LN on their own products, I doubt many of us should say much on a very technical and obscure subject like this.Me included.

I am running the 4.0 LNE nickies and was told it would be fine in cold weather. I live in Ottawa, Canada, today it is -25 celcius with wind chill. I had 2 other cars to equip with winter tires this winter so the pcar didn't see a set of winter rubber this year. I am hoping to throw some at it next year and use it as my year round DD (unless I sell it) You should rename this thread though, it reads like your LNE nickes have scored due to winter weather.

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No, you should call them Lokies ! 😳😜

Is your car in a garage? Throw a 200 watt shop light or 1,500 watt space heater under the oil pan. It's supposed to be -16 on Sunday.

awdguy, Who did assembled your 4.0 engine? was it flat 6 or some other independent garage? I think what it really comes down to, should I have done my piston ring end gaps with my block and rings in a freeezer or does the engineered LN kit take all expansion coefficients and arctic temps into consideration and standard ring end gaps ( that I used) will be fine?

I have a natural gas heater in an isulated harage, brining the temps up for initial start is not a problem, but my destinations will be outside blowing in the wind with no garage, so a very cold sub zero arctic start Glenn

I called LN today, I have been at their location, They sell a very good product, but the people on the phone are salesmen, they are not technical people that are rebuilding engines between phone calls. They could not tell me if I should have done my ring end gaps at standard shop temp or in a freezer. They said I should be okay, but the person on talked to on the phone was not very sure of their answer or very convincing. I spent a lot of time and money on this engine. Is there anyone on the forum that rebuilt their own engine or had someone else do it ( other than flat6) and operate their car all year long especially in sub zero or single digit F temps

I built my engine. did you not get ring gap instructions with your JE pistons? iirc the instructions said to set gaps in a temp Controlled room at 67f one of the reasons I rebuilt with LNE and did not do a OEM engine swap is because I was told it wouldnt happen again.

Glenn- I live in the Chicagoland area also. If you don't have snows on your car, or you have a winter car to drive, why not just drive it and not worry about it? Do you really want to get all the salt in and up in your vehicle? I sure do not. On top of this, you will be guaranteed that there will be no issues if you don't use it in the single digit weather, just wait a few weeks, it will warm up again. I know how much money you must of spent, why chance it at all?

Motors in all sorts of cars can withstand temp variations. The M96/97 scoring issues may or may not be attributable to ambient temp. We have built 2 motors because they suffered scoring and both were from warmer climates... That said, if LN produces a product that is hyped to be the best available I would expect to be able to use it all year long, regardless of where I live. Their literature does not state ambient temp ranges for use. My own 3.8 cayman uses LN sleeves. We don't get as cold as you do, but I am not worried about the temp at all. Ring end gaps have little to do with scoring. It is not the rings that are scoring the bore, it is the piston skirt. Cheers

Providing that the ring end gaps, and oil ring tensions were correctly set during assembly, you will have zero problems with LN Nickies in extreme cold. Most of the cold weather development was done in Moment IL, where LN is located. I have dozens of engines in Canada, and haven't ever had a cold weather related issue. No, it doesn't matter someone's background, this engine has it's own set of variables that gives it the character that it has. I've instructed my hands on classes for over a decade, and have interacted with more than 1,400 people during that period of time, from all walks of life, and backgrounds. Rocket Scientist, or ditch digger, everyone goes into the M96 with the same lack of experience. Results may vary. "Its just another engine" No, its not. Keep thinking that.

The instructions that I got with my pistons were pretty good except for step #2 of water-cooled basic assembly and break in instructions step #2) "ring end gaps must be checked and gapped if necessary. M96 and M97 engines should have their top rings to a min spec of .004 per inch of bore for second and oil control rings. Some applications may require additional end gap......" It is crystal clear what the gap for the top ring should be, but the sentence just runs on or something is missing when second and oil control rings are mentioned. is the intent of this sentence to gap all the rings the same? That is unusual, usual there is a difference in end gaps depending on location of the ring to prevent flutter aid in sealing. As the temps plummet here, I am revisiting this instruction, if, in fact, I did everything correctly. Car has be running great all summer since I got it together, broken in, feel much more power. Thanks Glenn

Another thing about nikasil to ponder is just about every single high performance small engine is made with the coating on the cylinders now. This goes for snowmobiles, mx bikes etc... BRP Rotax has switched from Nikasil to Plasma coating with their newest engine tech this season.

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Nikisil is the standard in the hi performance snowmobile world. This is plating, not coating. That said, just like the M96, manufacturers are always trying to make more money, and with the environmental impacts of Nikisil plating, they are getting further from it. This isn't because isn't the best, this is because of accountants and the EPA. Charles at LN sent me these pics this morning. I built this engine in the LN track car 7 years ago, using my 101mm Nickies set up, and clearances. it has lived through this every winter.

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I'll be curious how this new plasma coating works out for BRP / Rotax. I "believe" some of the tech jargon is that in a 2 stroke the plasma has better oil retention as its more pours but I haven't followed it too closely.

We can't compare two stroke technology with threat of the M96. I've done a lot of 2 stroke development in my time too. Things are changing with 2 stroke engines in regard to oil. No longer can a 2 stroke oil just have a ton of Ester dumped in it, and be bottled. Getting back on track... Seeing a manufacturer do something new these days is something I take with a grain of salt... I usually think "ok, that's cheaper, let's see if it blows up". As a developer I am always looking for mistakes that manufactures make, and speculation can pay off big time. This equates to things well outside the Porsche world, too.

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FIFY Now it's more accurate. Lifespan calculations are allso reason for the poor longetivity of parts. It's not good business to make things last too long.