Sludge in Reservoir

New to this forum please let me know if I posted in the wrong area....So I took my 1999 911 carrera out yesterday for a short drive (do about a 1000 miles a year) and on my way back noticed my temp spiked and the temp light started blinking. I pulled over immediately and turned off the car. The car was steaming from the rear left side of engine panel. I called a tow truck and had them tow me home. After struggling for about 2 hours to get the engine cover up ( lever not working) my wife found a video on how to use the emergency release, and upon opening saw the above. A couple things to note: FACTS I had barely any oil The car starts and seems to run fine (did this before seeing above and trying to open cover) Didn't leave on long enough to heat, but had high oil pressure POSSIBLE ISSUES Cracked head or gaskets Oil Cooler Seals Anyone have anything similar and what was your outcome/solution and cost. Not mechanically inclined other than above average basic maintenance .Thanks in advance

Oooo... looks like a cafe latte... that�s not good there�s not a whole lot else to say until you get into it and figure out what went wrong. Cracked head possibly... The head gaskets generally don�t fail on these cars. Porous crank case, cracked cylinder, the oil cooler you mentioned, AOS...pray for the best

Get that sludge flushed out of the car as soon as you can. It will ruin all of the rubber lines. There are many $$$$ lines. Usedawn dish soap or ?? Search for info on how.

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More like yellow diarrhea..Thanks for our response

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I plan to have the system flushed..and have compression tested...my only question is does only halving intermix one way (oil in coolant) mean anything?

Most likely a cracked head. Try to search here on RL. There are quite a few of threads some even documenting successful repair. One common place of crack you can visually inspect be removing the spark plug and inspect the hole.

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Thanks for the response. I have read through multiple threads all morning long, to the point my wife is begging me to stop, as each is more daunting than the next and each time I come out of my office I am becoming more and more depressed.

Sorry to hear that as there are no cheap and easy ways to fix this (if it's a cracked head). Figure at least a few thousand even if you diy. The worst case is just to sell it as a roller.

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h Are you mechanically inclined? If so, do as Ahsai suggested, get the plugs out for visual inspection before towing paying someone else to inspect it. You're going to need all the savings you can right now.

Whats your guess for an authorized Porsche shop to do it...I would rather spend the money and have something I love than loose money by selling it Anybody have a shop they recommend in the Houston area?

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Sadly I'm not, too the point that I read RRTEC's saga of his rebuild and I'm in awe...I have a employee who is very mechanically inclined and plan to have him flush the coolant system and have check compression and inspect it...

My reco is to not let anyone other than an m96 expert touching the engine, especially if a repair is needed. A better bet would be to get it to a reputable indy that knows the m96 engine. The learning curve is steep and you definitely don't want to be experimental on your own engine. To build it back to pre-failure condition will likely cost $6-7k. However there are many items that also should be replaced while you are there, easily a few more thousands.

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I appreciate the feedback.

Sorry to hear about your 1999 996 if its not to painful to share the details of your car that would be interesting to many of us here that own MK1 cars how many miles on the car track use ownership history climate/ winter driver maintenance done over the life of car/ recent services diagnosis of the cause of intermix Thanks

So who has a good Huston area Indy recommendation for OP?

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My car has 90,526 miles I am the 3 owner, the second having traded it in for a new vehicle. i bought it last year 2017 No track use by me, not sure about the other 2 owners I live north outside of Houston so very humid weather, the previous owner lived in near Galveston with maybe 10 days with cold reaching less than 32 f I have other vehicles so this was going to be once or twice a month vehicle. I have on put 600 miles on the vehicle since buying it, Not sure if this a true intermix case as I only have oil in my coolant and no visible coolant in my oil. As of right now I am waiting for Tuesday to come around so that I can get the coolant system cleaned and cleared. I will update here as I travel through this,,,,

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Thanks for the shout out as I need good recommendations and advice for other having gone through this

Again sorry that you are going though this There have been several posters on here that have had similar problems to yours soon after purchase - the previous owner may have known and traded it in to avoid taking a loss on the value instead of doing the right thing I hate to think the worst of people but there are very cheap people that will be dishonest when selling - I got my car at a dealership the 2nd owner traded it in on a new corvette - I had an inspection done but you never know, a PPI can miss a lot of things ( ask me how I know - long story different car) but feel like I was still taking a chance on the car but it has been solid - I have taken it from 20K miles to 52k miles over 4 years with no issues besides regular wear items

+1 on the likelyhood of a cracked head. Since there is no coolant in the oil, the bearings will be ok, could be a candidate of a top end only rebuild.

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I can only hope...

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I had it for a year and a month without any issues..granted didn't put many miles on her...I guess the not knowing the complete diagnosis nor cost is what is hard right now. In about 2-3 days I will be dealing with the know and cost

You have some heavyweight knowledge already chiming in on your thread. Be sure to report findings/diagnosis for peer review here to get additional opinions and ideas. Good luck, hoping for the best.

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Thanks..I will follow-up with findings...

He knows he is in deep, of course the P.O. knew and screwed him, any other helpful comments? How about a Huston area Indy recommendation?

OP I hope you saw this thread. Lot of positive info. Just need to find a good INDY in Huston to work with. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...-the-yard.html Do do a google and post any that you find in your preferred area. Maybe someone will have had experience and comment?

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I actually read this and many other post with similar issues. I wish i had the space, tools, know how to tackle this project.

Day 1 is when I found I had a problem when my gauge spiked on a short drive and pulled it over and then had it towed home. Days 2 and 3 were spent reading anything on or about Porsche's and what I now know is called (Intermix) Day 4-Finding the right shop A friend of mine gave me the name of a small Porsche Shop in Houston. I spoke to Akrim, the owner of the shop at Akrimhaus, and right of the bat he told me he could not help me fixing my car as he has a closed shop with about 30 Porsche owners and only 2 mechanics and was running about 4-6 months behind. He did say he had a few moment to discuss my situation and which point I explained the following: Oil in Coolant only No loss of performnce or misfiring No check engine light Only Fault light on Temp Gauge I told him that I wanted to have the intermix flushed and then do a leak down test He agreed that flushing the system would be wise in the long run, but stated that prior to doing the flush was to test the oil cooler as if that failed it would cause similar issues, secondly if the Oil cooler was faulty then flushing the vehicle might cause issues by sending the intermix into the engine..He stated if the oil cooler was fine then either a head gasket or a cracked block.. He couldn't or wouldn't recommend anyone to me, but said my best bet was to take it to the dealer as they have a machine that flushes the intermix from the whole system..I appreciated this advice as he wasn't trying to sell me services.. Using this knowledge my first visit with a Porsche Indy shop, the quoted me $1,850 initially for the flushing and testing the oil cooler, however I never really had gotten a chance to talk to the mechanic. After talking to the next shops (2nd stop) mechanic I sent back a email asking if the estimate including removing the front panel , and removing the radiators and cleaning them..the revised estimate went up to $2950 The second shop, I spoke to the mechanic and he said it would take about 6-8 hours just for the flushing, which he stated would be removal and clean of the coolant reservoir, radiators removed and cleaned and soaked and hoses cleaned. He also stated that to test and possible replace would cost about 900 dollars. He stated he would send me a written estimate..later his boss called and said based on what he heard it sounded to him like a head gasket issue or cracked head..stated I should simply star with a compression test, leak down test, and hydro carbon test to first determine where the leak is said he would charge me $385 for all three. I asked if it was a head gasket what he thought the cost would be he stated around 15k and if I had any head issues add another for each head..mind you the car is only worth 15k-17k Lastly I went to the Porsche dealer and the brought out the mechanic who works older cars. He indicated that they have a machine that does the flushes with high heat and detergent and it would be about 6 hours at their older vehicle billing rate of $125 so about $850 He didn't really think the oiler cooler could go be tested with the intermix in it and he agreed It cant be flushed without knowing the oil cooler is not faulting. Said a leak down test might be good as well as using a boroscope to search for cracks. So what I'm thinking about doing is having the vehicle towed to the second shop to have the 3 tests (compression, leak down, and hydro carbon Testing) and then towed it to the orsche dealer to have the system flushed.. Any thoughts

Sounds logical to me. Good luck with this.

Reading this advice and seeing the OP struggling with this and the shops professional advice while is good advice/procedure for the usual symptoms, does not fit with this specific problem of the unusual location of the common crack that is associated only with the m/96 engines. I've never seen a head gasket fail on one of these engines. I've been a Master Dealer Tech for 45 years, Master Tech for Ford, Master Tech for Mitsubishi, Master Tech for Porsche. I can say with 99% certainty that a compression test, leak down test, or carbon monoxide (CO) in cooling system test, will not detect the crack in the m/96 heads. The cracks in the m/96 heads RARELY ever extend in the combustion chamber.They commonly extend through the lifter oil pressure feed to spark plug hole or water jacket or the exhaust valve guide. None of which will cause compression loss , or leak down, or carbon monoxide(CO) to enter the cooling system. These cracks are best identified by these procedures. 1. process of elimination 2.visual inspection 3.special pressure test 1. process of elimination: eliminate other less invasive/costly possibilities. 1.a; test oil cooler 1.b; test AOS (only if coolant is found in oil and visa versa) 2. visual inspection : remove cams and lifters and visualy look for cracks in the known areas 3. special pressure test: if no visual crack can be seen in head , the head can be tested on a special pressure testing station to find cracks the eye can't see and to verify integrity after crack repair.

^+1 hence my suggestion of taking it to an m96 expert.

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Honestly, I didn't feel 100% comfortable with any of the shops, Thank you for this advice..

The other question I have is that the intermix was at a pancake stage in the cooler...could that have happened in one 45 min drive or do you think this leak has been going on for a while?

The only thing that I will echo is to find the root cause first. If you spend 2-3k on flushing and cleaning the system only to have the intermix comes back and you are back to square one and still have to find the root cause and clean again. The chance of clean things up and everything is fine is very small. Even in that case, I'd still like to find out what caused it in the first place and that still lead back to finding the root cause.

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My theory is that I would like to flush the intermix from the system and do a minimally invasive diagnostic to the engine. I would not be driving it and I can have this done $ 1350 to include towing fees. I can afford that right now and it might be several months maybe a year when i go to the next step. The next step is to begin a tear down of the engine layers to find the root cause. I believe at this point once it gets to this stage where I am forced to make a decision as to fixing the problem which can go from $6000- $16,000 or having them put back together.which will be about $1500-$2500 and then selling it as a roller.My other option is to find a used 3.4L engine and just make a switch.. Question: can a 3.6L or 2.5L engine work without modifications

I got you! that's a tough situation but can be fixed. I will let others to chime in but my limited knowledge is that 3.6 will be significant update and since 02+ 3.6L has vario cam +, the computer and other harness also need to be updated. I don't know much about boxster/cayman engine to weight in.

With my experience rebuilding Chevy 350�s, which I know is quite a different monster, doing some of the time intensive labor yourself can save you a lot on repair bills. But definitely let a professional do the tricky stuff. I would start by testing the oil cooler because it doesn�t seem that hard to do yourself or take it off and have a shop test it. You Tube this video is a simple diy. If it�s a head or gasket issue, I would pull the motor and take the heads off, it�s not a difficult job but a shop will destroy you with labor for this step. Next , check the gaskets. A blown head gasket is easy to spot. Take the motor to a shop have them re assemble. It also wouldn�t hurt to have a machine shop inspect the head. if it�s a cracked head, a quick google search showed that you can buy a rebuilt head for around $2000. Moral of the story is it won�t cost as much if you pre pull the motor

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Thank you for the tips and the video. I wish I had the space, a lift and the tools to do this job.. I guess if you compare the cost of a shop doing it, you could by a lift and tools, due the repairs and still save money. But really what it comes down to is the time for a novice to get up to speed on doing the removal and reinstall correctly. At this point I have to focus my time and energy elsewhere..

I think you're taking the right approach, engine flush and then take it from there. I hope its just a failed oil cooler...

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If that's the case you would see a grown man cry tears of joy..lol

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I spoke to the Porsche dealer mechanic and he indicated that to get the oil cooler off and to test it they have to drop the engine..does that sound right?

No, from what I recall, but I think it's easier and less time consuming...My Memory is not always accurate though! On second thought I could be thinking older air cooled.

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Terminology and clarification are key here. Also how many hours labor were estimated to "drop the engine" and remove/test the oil cooler? The term "drop the engine" can refer to a procedure as simple as removing 2 rear mount bolts and lowering the engine down a couple of inches to ease access, or to "drop the engine" as in completly remove engine/trans block from the vehicle ie dissconnect all wires, hoses, axles, drain all fluids , ect... I'm thinking he simply meant lower the engine a couple inches to help with access. I would never consider completely removing the engine to remove/test the oil cooler. BUT you would be very lucky if the oil cooler is in fact the root cause of oil entering the cooling system, but test it FIRST just to be sure, you could save some time/labor by going ahead and removing the complete engine/trans assembly.From my experience you have about a 5% chance the oil cooler is the cause and about 95% chance it is a cracked head..

^^As Porschetech3 suggests, they don't need to completely remove the engine, but it will need to be lowered. In addition, the intakes runners and the AC pump need to be removed as well - the oil cooler is buried up on the right front corner of the engine. It's literally a "nightmare" job with the engine in the car. It's not that it can't be done, but you're going to pay through the nose...

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I tend to agree with you on your last statement. The issue is that I want to really flush the intermix from the coolant system, and put the vehicle up for about 3 months until I complete the purchase of a new home. I was told that you don't want to flush the system if the oil cooler has failed as this will cause the flush to enter the engine and create even bigger problems. So even though a compression test, leak down test and boroscope visual check may not really show anything, I am by process of elimination working my way further into the engine. I will find out what exactly they are referring to and how many hours they are charging me. I really do appreciate the info and having my thought process examined. as my wife is tired of hearing me discuss all this

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I was told its a $3000 dollar job so the nightmare has started

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$3K is an awful lot of money - regardless of "nightmare" status. There's nothing difficult about it, just time consuming - if you have any mechanical ability, it's a pretty simple DIY - albeit tedious and time consuming. As you have now found out, this type of thing is what leads to big expenses with these cars. Seeing as you've got only about 10 or twenty dollars in O-rings (I'm sure the shipping was way more than the parts) you could spend a day or two doing the labor, and stuff the savings in your pocket! I've got close to $10k in parts into my car (MY '99 C4) in about 3.5 years of ownership - the labor would have been 2 - 2,5 times that had I not done the work myself (I also had the seals on the steering rack go at the dealership when I brought it in for a inspection - that ran me $1100.00 for a rebuilt/resealed rack with installation - dealer cost on parts and labor)... These cars are very very reasonable to buy and very expensive to maintain! Buyer beware!!!

^^^agree 100% with dporto. The only way these are affordable enthusiast cars is if you can do most (or all) of the labor yourself. The quote you have for pulling the oil cooler is all time, and not parts or complexity. The biggest hassle of this job (other than getting to it) is the oil and coolant that come draining out when you pull the cooler. Oh, and I haven't thought it through completely, but I suspect you can flush the front hoses and coolers if you disconnect the hoses where they pop up out of the tunnel into the engine bay under the car. That way you aren't circulating anything through the engine hoses or engine itself. Jake Raby has some guidance about the best off the shelf cleaning products to use in your flush if you search around Rennlist. Or spend the first couple of thousand toward a proper repair rather than flailing about trying to diagnose it without the knowledge to repair it - I'd send it to Flat6Innovations... https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...et-advice.html

^^^^+996 Check out this link and see if you're comfortable doing coolant flush. Add "Shout" and run the engine warm. Rinse and repeat for a few cycles. If you don't DIY, your sensible choices are very limited:

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My goal is to put a lift in my new home garage, and use that to work on the car as it seems like if anything that could go wrong with it, you need to access it from below the car.

ghtAnd don't discuss any of this with your wife if she tired of hearing it. Mine doesn't know I bought a roller, yet...

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"Honey why do the guys keep calling your car a 'roller?'" "Oh, that's just a car guy compliment, you know, 'she's a real roller!'"

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Just dropped the "BOMB" on her...After a few WTF's "your not done with the other project yada, yada, yada. How much, what? "You scored" she said and now shares my excitement (until I told her its a stick) lol! She's a keeper!

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Now all you have to do is get her out there under the car with you!

So I spoke to the Gurus at Flat Six, and although I agree there is something to be said about refurbishing the **** out of my old engine, Im having a hard time swallowing the price tag. Not because I don't think I wound be getting the best possible engine back, but because its still a 996 engine that could have further block issues, not covered by the retrofit. My other thought is buy another but newer 911 and learn to work on my old one. What year did they stop having these serious problems?

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Buy another newer 911? And you're having a hard time swallowing the price of a rebuild? I am a little baffled by your thought process, but I wish you luck in whatever path you choose.

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Let me try to explain my thinking..I was quoted 23k-25k for the engine rebuild. They (Flat Six) guarantees their work, however you still have the same 996 engine block which may or may not last which is not guaranteed. At the same time I can take the 23k-25K and buy a newer 911 2002-2003 and work on the old engine at my leisure. Neither of these cars would be my daily driver. Its the reverse of someone buying a roller, who already has a running 911

What block issues? 02 & 03 have issues too (ask me how I know) that will put you in the same boat you're in now.

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I have been told that issues with cracks and porous crankcases are common...what years does this stop?

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Fair enough. But there's no guarantee a 2002 - 2003 engine won't have issues and/or s*** the bed, in which case you'd have TWO 996s that were in critical condition and be in for what, $40k? My wife is a keeper but even she would hit me in the head with a frying pan if that happened.

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lol..this has definitely not been discussed with my wife and Im sure mine would do the same thing. I have had my 911 for a year and a month before this somewhat fatal incident happened. I love the car and I'm just going through the different levels of grief. I feel like the decision to add more money or simply walk away is looming and neither choice is a wise economic decision...

I would not buy another 996. I would take your time and find someone who knows these engines and see if you can work out a deal. If my engine needed a repair like yours, I would not spring for an amazing rebuild and get everything done. Instead, I would try to find a complete used engine and try to get someone to swap it for you. Then you can determine what your old engine is worth, what it needs, etc. You could also buy a cheap 996, grab the engine, then sell the roller.

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Thank you for the advice..

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I agree!

An alternative view: if the purpose of flushing the cooling system is primarily to save the rubber coolant hoses then I wonder if the money is better spent on new hoses, especially since the intermix has been in there for 5 days now. Even at porsche price levels ~1300 $ will get you quite a few new hoses. Another option would be to clamp the coolant hoses to and from the oil cooler and then flush.

You might just be surprised how expensive those porsche hoses are. And there are a ton of them. I replaced all of them in a 996 with intermix and it was VERY pricy.

Yeah, you're right I am surprised to see how much they are to replace. According to this post by Jake Raby they run 3k and that was in 2014... @OP better do a DIY flush with the car on axle stands. Personally I'd take a gamble and presume the oil cooler to be ok and flush the system. Reason being that clamping hoses to and from it won't work as the coolant enters the cooler from the engine directly. The only hose connected to it is for bleeding and leads to the expansion tank see here Pelican and another view and additional info here.

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I was told there were 27 separate coolant hoses...

I think flushing the cooling system to get the intermix out ASAP is a very good idea, especially If you are not at least prepared to do a top end rebuilt. The chances of the problem being a crack in the head are very high, and the chances of getting intermix in your oil at this point are very low. Oil pressure can be as high 70psi, where coolant pressure will never exceed 15psi, hence a crack between the two will result mainly in oil getting into the cooling system. If coolant gets into the oil, it has to come in while there is no oil pressure ( hot engine/coolant pressure... with engine off) or the breach is in an area that has no oil pressure.(AOS).. I would get the cooling system flushed and then take your time and prepare for at least a top end rebuild/crack repair. Once prepared, drop the engine and first test the oil cooler and AOS,(if no prpblems) then proceed with top end repair

Buy a Corvette.. lol.

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hahaha...

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That's exactly what I plan to do...

So I want to give a quick update on the above plan. I am doing a contingency sale on one house while getting my home ready to sell. No way I can do a DIY on draining the intermix out of my coolant system.. I went by the Porsche dealer that has the machine that does a coolant flush without starting your engine..They quoted me $575 which I was happy to plunk down, but after calling the older model 911 specialist, the service adviser stated that it would be throwing my money away as it would'nt get alot of the crap out. I was surprised that they didnt want to take my money..,so i am at 40 days with intermix in the system,,,As my 911 is not my daily driver it is just sitting there..hopefully I will sell my house and close and then I can focus more time on a remedy...

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Man, this sucks, sorry to hear it. Having that stuff in there that long is going to wreak havoc on the rubber/hoses, from my understanding. Good luck with a quick home sale!

90 percent chance it will be a cracked head. The whole job will go smoother if you drop the engine and then clean and flush the cooling system. As there is a small possibility that the oil cooler is bad I would check that with the engine out before condemning the heads. If you were in my shop I would quote you the worst case, repairing the cyl heads and if it turned out to be the cooler good. but I would not do the job without pulling the engine.

If it is a cracked he’d and you decide to rebuild the engine yourself, send the heads to Hoffman Automotive Machine. https://newsite.hamheads.com/ they are porsche head specialists and can repair most cracks and do a leak test, pressure test, and completely rebuild the heads for you. Highly recommended!

OP sorry about your situation, one more option to consider. http://rndengines.com/

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RND does not have a 3.4 available and are discontinuing the M series engines...Quite a few 3.2's though.

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif

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I wonder why they are no longer working with the M96/M97s?

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Originally Posted by Charles Navarro Yup. Going to focus on engines that are in high demand. Once those less popular m-codes that are on clearance are gone, they won't be replaced. That's why SSF is letting them go with no core charge.

FYI They do have a 3.6 that will be available in two months.

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I actually have some M96.04 3.4 engines in stock now. Can't do the $8500 clearance price with no core like on the 2.7 and 3.2 engines, but I have some wiggle room if the core you have is rebuildable. Send an email to [email removed] for more details.