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YOUR RESEARCHFlat6 Innovations Bore Scoring Part 5
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Replace every 6 months/ 5k miles; whichever may come first
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Of course, number 3 is using an oil that has better boundary layer protection, and keeping that oil changed every 6 months/ 5K miles; whichever may come first.
Leading evidence: 'Replace every 6 months/ 5k miles; whichever may come first' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, The most frequently discussed action is 'Check brakes and flush the fluid including the clutch system' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Check brakes and flush the fluid including the clutch system
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Suggestion · Original poster
Part of his assignment was to check brakes and flush the fluid including the clutch system.
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Suggestion
At what point do you recommend injectors be changed as preventative maintenance?
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Suggestion
i must have missed something but what is the new recommended oil from Porsche now?
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Suggestion
I am pretty sure that we (and by that I mean on this forum with Jake and/or Charles) had this discussion already, and that the result of that discussion was that for cars stored in the winter, changing before storage and not changing again in the spring was OK.
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Suggestion
I am pretty sure that we (and by that I mean on this forum with Jake and/or Charles) had this discussion already, and that the result of that discussion was that for cars stored in the winter, changing before storage and not changing again in the spring was OK.
Replace every 6 months/ 5k miles; whichever may come first
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Of course, number 3 is using an oil that has better boundary layer protection, and keeping that oil changed every 6 months/ 5K miles; whichever may come first.
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Suggestion
No doubt but that doesn�t change the fact that the injectors are expensive, I have 550cc Bosh ones that go with my supercharger kit and they were 40 bucks each
Replace way the car is driven, especially in cold climates
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Suggestion
The single biggest thing that can be done to assist with avoiding bore scoring is fuel injector replacement, a close second is changing the way the car is driven, especially in cold climates.
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i must have missed something but what is the new recommended oil from Porsche now?
interesting points about the injectors, i am sure mine are original so 20 years old now so i am curious how good they still are, the injectors for these cars are darn expensive
I do have a question on the warm up routine. I understood from previous readings (and I "thought" it was from Jake, but may be mistaken) that I should avoid that low 2000 rpm range as that is when the variocam system is working hardest. If shifting at 3000 rpm I'm always in that low 2000 rpm range. I am hoping maybe Jake could clarify this for me?
No doubt but that doesn�t change the fact that the injectors are expensive, I have 550cc Bosh ones that go with my supercharger kit and they were 40 bucks each
You're driving a car that was close to $100k when new and you consider $240 for a set of 6 injectors "expensive"... REALITY CHECK! C'mon dude... You already "stole" your 996 for $15-20k... you didn't think you were going to get off that easy did you? If you want cheap drive Kia...
The porsche ones are around 100each, thats my point they are more than double and there is nothing special about them, for porsche specific parts i can understand but not on injectors, but thats the beauty of these type of cars
Unless injectors are 1,000 bucks each, and the job to install them is 15K in labor, they won't be more expensive than letting things go...
Driving these cars after them just being started up, is a hell of a lot different than driving them at temperature. With the cam adjustments at start up, and just started periods being fully advanced (to light off the catalytic converters along with fuel enrichment and secondary air injection), the whole story changes.
@wildbilly32
I shot a video of your 996 arrival yesterday, Its uploading now. Damn is it a classic for bore scoring.. We may need to video this reconstruction process, so people understand what it takes for us to overcome the problems of bore scoring.
With yours being so classic, and you having found the issue yourself with the borescope, it may be difficult to do this in the future so conclusively.
BTW- Your pressure plate is grenaded.. When I drove the car back from the truck I noticed it right away due to the way the pedal felt.
Good thing my engine comes with a new one :-)
I just sent a note to Jud concerning the clutch pedal feel and the brakes. When I parked it last Fall everything felt normal. Early winter I took it to my Indi for some diagnosis confirmation and other work. Part of his assignment was to check brakes and flush the fluid including the clutch system. Other than driving home a couple of miles on snowy roads I have only driven the car twice since serviced. Once to a PCA function about five miles distant and to the truck for shipping to you. Both times I noticed the hinky clutch pedal and the brakes felt different. I wrote that off to having been driving my new 2019 Civic Type R as it feels very different than the Porsche or that the Indi did something wrong. I'm glad you know what that is and will fix it during the rebuild process. I know, once again, I made the RIGHT decision.
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I think in my e46 M3 the manual says get in the car and drive and keep it under 3k until it warms up. They also had a cool feature in the RPM counter that would light up as the car warmed up and once all the lights were on it was at operating temperature. I thought that was interesting because for whatever reason not until the last 5 or so years of owning cars have I heard that you shouldn't just let it idle. Maybe its been a shift in the type of cars I have owned.
Not really.. Its just a part of owning a vehicle that isn't generic. Think Porsche's are expensive to own? Try owning vehicles with tracks, and turrets. A brake job can cost 3K in parts, and take you 2 weeks to do!
When I lived in AZ I would wait at the elementary school along with hundreds of other parents until school let out to pick up the kids. I�d park the car and go stand under a shady tree. Nearly everyone else would sit in their car idling (AC was on), sometimes for up to 45 minutes! Picture this at hundreds of schools all over Phoenix.
Prolonged idling has always been bad for a car (any car) and I avoid it. I believe my �84 Carrera owner�s manual says to start the car and drive off, don�t warm it up.
�The storage oil is not a good oil to be using over the summer.�
Jake, d
o I need to use the same type of oil for storage as I do during the summer?
For the last two seasons I have been using DT40. I put 5000 miles over the summer on the car, change in November, and store until April 1. I do a UOA on the oil in November and then pine for my car for 4 months.
Up here in
Canuckistan
8L of DT40 is $180. Using it over the winter as "storage oil" is going to add up. I am pretty sure that we (and by that I mean on this forum with Jake and/or Charles) had this discussion already, and that the result of that discussion was that for cars stored in the winter, changing before storage and not changing again in the spring was OK.
So what is better: Changing every 12 months with DT40, or every 6 months with Motul 8100 x-cess?
Another excellent video. Thanks Jake for your support of this community. I was surprised that there was no discussion of temperature in the video. I thought there was a general consensus that higher oil temperatures could have reduced the oil film layer on the troublesome cylinders, with contribution to the bore scoring phenomenon. I believed this was the primary reason that the lower temperature thermostat was recommended. The video didn’t address the coolant system at all. Is there less concern that the coolant system temperature is a contributor to bore scoring?
Again, thanks Jake for this whole series of videos.
Jim
No professor. I wasn’t talking about the engine warm up process as Jake discussed in the clip you posted. I was asking about the cooling system operating temperature and the effect on overheated oil losing its viscosity and reducing the film thickness at the troublesome cylinder walls potentially contributing to scoring. I’m specifically interested in whether Jake still thinks the lower temperature thermostat can potentially delay or even help avoid scoring if it hasn’t already occurred.
Obviously, I can't speak for Jake Raby, but if you notice in that segment, he starts off by saying overheating these engines can lead to all kinds of problems. 160 Low Temp Thermostats will not prevent an engine from overheating. For some reason, many people think that it will somehow it make the engine run cooler. They've even admitted it here on the forum. That's not the purpose. The M96 factory thermostat is not fully open until about 200F. The purpose of the 160 F low temp stat is to get the coolant flowing at a lower temperature. It's fully open at around 180-185F. This will minimize so called "hot spots" that could possibly lead to engine damage such as cracks. And if you've been in the M96 community for any length of time, you know what a crack could lead to on these engines. Personally, I think it would definitely be a positive move in the fight against bore scoring. When I had work done on my car recently, I thought about requesting one of these to be installed. Now that I've heard from Jake and Baz on the subject of bore scoring, I'm going to make it my next purchase.
If you pay attention, you notice that one thing I don�t mention much at all is thermals being a contributing factor to bore scoring. This is because we see these issues with engines from all climates, driven all sorts of ways. The one thermally related issue we see comes from the engine taking too long to build heat, keeping the cold start, and just started fuel too enriched. You can solve that by cranking the car, and driving away, avoiding idling. The added RPM and load gets the engine up to temp faster, and burns the excess fuel.
At this stage of the game people have been doing the wrong thing for years. They didn�t know any better, and they finally just started listening to what we�ve been saying for over a decade. For most, it is too late, and the prior servicing, and driving habits of these vehicles has already forever impacted the engine, with no possibility for reversal.
That said, you don�t need a low temp thermostat to help avoid bore scoring, you need it to help stabilize the cooling system, to avoid thermal spikes, and get the volume of coolant flowing sooner, and with maximum volume. This may not help with bore scoring, but it will help with mode of failure #2, cracked cylinders (among others).
The single biggest thing that can be done to assist with avoiding bore scoring is fuel injector replacement, a close second is changing the way the car is driven, especially in cold climates. Of course, number 3 is using an oil that has better boundary layer protection, and keeping that oil changed every 6 months/ 5K miles; whichever may come first.
Everyday is a school day here... Because we learn something new daily. For this reason the things I am sayng now are current, and they will differ from what I said last year, and what I will say tomorrow. The engine is our teacher.
Jake, re the injectors. At what point do you recommend injectors be changed as preventative maintenance? Based on mileage, age, other indicators?
Is it a reasonable assumption that the nickies cylinders eliminates that risk?
Thanks for putting these together Jake!
@Flat6 Innovations
I definitely enjoyed them!
They were great videos and i'm looking forward to more of them.
I was aware of most of the things you some about from reading your comments over the years but the videos were great!
Definitely interested in the data collection group as well - any more detail on that? I'm not looking to get paid I'd just like to contribute data. Although I have a PIWIS2 rather than a Durametric.
Jake once mentioned doing a video on adapting the later fuel injector to the early cars, it's cheaper to buy and better , but needs a modification to fit the early rail set up
I have been hoping for the video because I would like to replace my injectors. Everything I've researched shows the Mk 2 as being cheaper too but both the Sonnen Porsche and Sunset Porsche websites show the Mk 2 injector being over three times the cost of the Mk 1. Could Porsche be selling remanufactured Mk1 injectors?
From Sonnen's site:
996.606.120.01 Mk 1 $76.71
996.606.122.00 Mk 2 $235.91
Porsche pricing occasionally makes no sense... Actually regularly makes no sense... Seems to be they charge what they feel sometimes you get a great deal, sometimes you get a reasonable deal, sometimes its just absurd.
Also noticed that the inspection car had Cargraphic headers + Cargraphic x-pipe
Is it a members car?
Hey Jake, thanks again for making so much of your research public information. It baffles me that some folks think your commentary on Rennlist is simply fear mongering and scare tactics -- if that were the case, why would you give so much of your information away for free? Speaking of free, I tried PMing you recently as I had some info obtained from my research on M96 that might interest you, but for obvious reasons, it looks like you've taken that option away from your profile. Feel free to hit me up if you'd like.
At any rate, just now catching up on Pt. 5 and noticed you mentioned reports with escalating levels of both Aluminum and Silicon are signs of bore scoring. I've been using Speeddiagnostix for my UOA and noticed they don't report Silicon PPM on any of my reports. Is this something i can request from them? I guess it's possible it's not listed because there aren't any traces in my sample, but there are other elements that are listed with a 0 next to them, so that logic doesn't jive with me. Thoughts?
I�ll ask Lake about the silicon reporting in PPM, and post his response here.
As for turning off my PMs, well, I had to. I like documentation, and we were having too many failure reports come in that were not going through my proper channels. People were also asking for pricing, and etc in PMs, and that didn�t give me the ability to easily keep all dialogue in one place, to be referenced later. Now all of our dialogue goes through the support system on the website, and we have even abandoned conventional email.
Part 6 and even part 7 of the video series �A focus on bore scoring� have been shot, and edited. These go over �How to live with bore scoring� and �How to overcome bore scoring� They will be released in the coming days.
Thank you. I did get a response from them, so good on them for the customer service- but would appreciate hearing Lake�s thoughts.
Sure, I get. I�ve been chasing a slight fueling issue and through a small sample size of folks online, I resolved via a somewhat improbable solution. It might interest you, or not...I honestly don�t have the knowledge base to know.
I look forward to it. Currently, my favorite subject matter😁
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